The Real Kangaroo Office

Billenben · February 07, 2023, 01:28:39 PM

The Real Kangaroo Office.
It is 1850 and Dr Thomas Hodgkin's, of the Kangaroo Office investors trio of Hodgkin, Tindall and Taylor, marries Sarah Francis Callow (1). Sarah is the mother of Reginald Scaife (1) who in 1853 becomes the Manager of the legendary Kangaroo Office (3). Scaife is Dr Hodgkin's son in law.

The standard Kangaroo Office narrative talks about Taylor, Taylor, Taylor but the records seem to show Taylor was not the protagonist and that it was Dr Thomas Hodgkin who is the principal of the trio Hodgkin, Tindall and Taylor (HT&T).

Dr Thomas Hodgkin history remembers as a medical immortal and a philanthropist. Tindall is Peter Tindall (Jnr), the son of Peter Tindall of the well known Tindall ship builders and owners. The Tindall of HT&T is Peter Tindall Junior (3). William Joseph Taylor is of course the medallist, the token maker (3).

The Kangaroo Office story includes the ship the Kangaroo. Built for Peter Tindall Snr and launched 24th of March 1853 (2). Prior to the Kangaroo sailing to Port Phillip on June 26 1853 there is an agreement, contract, a Deed, between HT&T and Reginald Scaife on the 25 June 1853 in relation to the stamping press (3,4).
Notable in this agreement is a number of things:

The Deed has on it that it is between "Dr Hodgkin and Others" and "Reginald Scaife". In legal parlance, and this is a legal document, this makes Hodgkin the lead player of the trio.
The Deed shows Scaife is leasing the press from HT&T for £30 per year and 2/3rds of any profits over £200 per year.
The Deed states the gold business is "his (Scaife) said business".
The syndicate (HT&T) own the press and associated materials, not just Taylor.

The first thing we can take away from this Deed is that Taylor never 'sent' a press to Australia with a view to having a private mint. Taylor was part of a syndicate that Scaife leased a press from. Scaife was to use that press in Australia in his gold business which if profitable saw some return, 2/3rds of everything p.a. over £200, for HT&T as part of the arrangement.
We also see the Deed shows Hodgkin is the primary party of HT&T; it is written in such a fashion. We know the press originates from Taylor and we know the boat originates from Tindall (Snr). We know Hodgkin has some senior position in the trio by virtue of being the named member of the trio on the Deed. The biggest beneficiary of the stamping press Deed for the Kangaroo Office venture is Scaife, not Taylor, Not Tindall, not Hodgkin. We also see in correspondence from Scaife to his parents (Sarah and Thomas) that Scaife refers a number of business maters directly to Hodgkin. Such things as acquiring new dies and seeing a set of the pieces ends up in Paris in 1855 (3). It appears that Hodgkin is the principal of the trio.

The Deed is about Scaife's gold (and token) business, Scaife's rented press. The Kangaroo Office was Scaife's store with a press out the back, so to speak. Taylor has his man, Morgan Brown, entrenched in the venture but as manager and supervisor of the press, nothing more (3,4). Hodgkin appears to be the lead party of HT&T and Scaife the boss of the Kangaroo Office. That is not Taylor, or the trio, looking to make profit on a gold differential (the 1895 W Roth account (6)) or the Vaux 1864 false narrative of setting up a mint and producing national coinage based on the pattern coins (5). Additionally the standard narrative uses words to the effect that HT&T sought to profit from the gold rush. That motive does not sit well with Hodgkin's legend of being a philanthropist.

We need to acknowledge that the 'Taylor sent a press for a private mint' narrative is not correct and examine what we have before us and make our assessment based on that until we have further information. Vaux can't be relied on; it is his embellished 1864 introduction that starts the 'pattern coins for national circulation' myth (5). Vaux in 1864 is the Keeper of Coins and Medals at the British Museum. The British Museum since mid January 2023 are now categorising the pieces 'coins - bullion' (i.e. rounds). The 'pattern coin' myth is now dead. W Roth is unreliable, his numbers are highly erroneous and it is W Roth's piece in The Queenslander July 27 1895 (6) that somewhat sets the Taylor narrative in motion.

We have since 2005 (3) known Taylor is not the protagonist, he is just a secondary beneficiary.
Why are Tindall and Taylor in on a venture that primarily sets up Scaife? There is something in it for them should things go well and neither have invested a lot in it; especially Taylor.

Hodgkin's is in it because of who Scaife is; his son-in-law.
Hodgkin is a cashed up philanthropist who would have little interest in investing time or money into a venture purely to make money.
Arguably Hodgkin is the key investor as such.
Hodgkin is the lead party on the Deed; that is for a reason. Whether the venture is his idea, he has agency for the party, he is the top investor, it is his brief drawing up the Deed; whatever the reason there is a reason it says "Dr. Hodgkin and Others".
Hodgkin is Scaife's go to guy if he needs dies or logistics.

Scaife names his only son, born in Melbourne, a product of the Kangaroo Office you might say, Arthur Hodgkin Scaife; clearly there is a deep respect.
The Scaife's have at least 4 kids while in Australia (1).

Without the Taylor story, and that story is dead, what story do we have?
I would suggest Hodgkin's is looking to set up Scaife and his wife in the colony.
One can only anticipate, based on the Deed, the trio are in for 2/9th each of the profit above £200.
Scaife stands to make the most in the gold business (his words) if all goes well.
The Deed reads that the Kangaroo Office is all about setting up Scaife with some benefits for Tindall and Taylor; and Hodgkin.

It's Hodgkin's Kangaroo Office.

I suggest one take off their numismatic goggles and reads the Deed before they comment (3 or 4)

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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/21634254?searchTerm=a%20numismatic%20history%20of%20australia

fred lever · February 08, 2023, 06:48:18 AM

Hullo!
Very interesting reading.
As a person who has hammered away at the 1930 penny myth, I can appreciate the amount of research you have put into this paper.
My motive in all my articles about the 1930 penny was to clear away the complete nonscience and twaddle parroted ad-nauseum and state the truth.
I guess you have the same motive behind the "Kangaroo Office".
Well done.
That subject I know nothing about by the way.
One point, and it's a personal thing with me, a paper like this should have the authors name at the end.
I detest pseudonyms!
Cheers, Fred Lever.

Billenben · February 08, 2023, 07:26:38 AM

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='127746' dateline='1675801098'Hullo!
Very interesting reading.
As a person who has hammered away at the 1930 penny myth, I can appreciate the amount of research you have put into this paper.
My motive in all my articles about the 1930 penny was to clear away the complete nonscience and twaddle parroted ad-nauseum and state the truth.
I guess you have the same motive behind the "Kangaroo Office".
Well done.
That subject I know nothing about by the way.
One point, and it's a personal thing with me, a paper like this should have the authors name at the end.
I detest pseudonyms!
Cheers, Fred Lever.

Prior to this piece I have an 11 page piece, with photos, on how these pieces got elevated from nothing to near apex coin item. That is going to appear in two parts in the new Australian Coin Review starting in March.
One of the interesting parts of numismatics is how these embellished myths surround many of the key pieces and how, as you also note, once a myth is started it is often just parrot to death and the fantasy become pseudo 'fact' to those who trust the numismatic narrative.
This particular assessment of the Kangaroo Office was made after I read the standard narrative which just had red flags all over it. So i thought i would look into it. John Sharples, of the Victoria Museum, work from 2005 basically exploded the Taylor myth and i found myself asking what is the most likely narrative now.
All roads lead to Hodgkin being the key to the venture for, in part, the purpose of 'looking after' his son in law. He would do that if history records him even half accurately.
The sad part is that since Sharples 2005/6 most of the premier coin sites have just continued with the same old story despite material that clearly shows it is wrong.
There is often serious money involved as a consequence of the numismatic narrative, be it perceived values or big commission due to big price sales.

Should be interesting to see how something like the Renniks catalogue adjust; and do bullion rounds even belong in a coin catalogue?

I often say that coins are worth what you can make people believe they are worth.

David Gee's 1909 florin being a top example of that theory.

thanks
Stephen Jones

Billenben · February 08, 2023, 03:35:35 PM

It gets complex but none of the complexity changes the Taylor narrative is not consistent with the Deed and we know the Deed is real.

The complexity arrives when we look at Peter Tindall (PT).
PT senior and PT junior.
We see in documents it appears to be PT Snr who owns the Kangaroo but we see in the stamping press Deed it is PT Jnr who is the part owner of the press and associated items and who is the part beneficiary of profit from the press beyond the threshold of £200 p.a..
Is it PT Snr or PT Jnr, or both, in relation to the Kangaroo? We have no idea what the arrangement with the Kangaroo is; just that PT (believed to be Snr) has it built and it is launched in early 1853.

What we need to consider here is that Taylor does not need a partnership with Hodgkin or Tindall to send his press and material to Melbourne and pursue his alleged agenda of a private mint stamping gold. Hodgkin doesn't need Taylor or Tindall to send a pre-fab shop and stock with the Scaife's to Melbourne. Tindall doesn't need Taylor or Hodgkin to send the Kangaroo on the Australia run. Each agenda does not rely on the others but they end up together.

I have been musing over W Roth's poor numbers and his claim the venture cost £13000. Coinworks claim the trio chartered the Kangaroo, other say bought or chartered. The Cutty Sark in 1869 cost a touch over £16000 to build. The contract states a build cost of £17 per ton and it took about 6 months to build, that is if we trust the internet.

The Kangaroo was 660 nrt (cargo volume) clipper and built 16-17 years earlier so we can see we are talking in the realm of £9000 - £11000 build cost. If the venture invested £13000 then they own the Kangaroo. Sharples seems to miss this in his work. It doesn't cost £13000 to buy and ship everything to Melbourne and set up. For £13000 you own the Kangaroo.

The real money is in the logistics of moving goods and some extra from passengers at £15- 60 a head. With a cargo volume of 660 ton the real money in this venture is shipping. Rates are around 60-65s per ton London to Melbourne in 1855 (the Argus 17 Oct 1855), better in late 1852. In fact the 1852 price increase in freight looked a much better proposition than any gold differential. Prices went exponential during late 1852, some graphs look like Bitcoin on a bull run. This might be the real driver of buying a boat to send to Australia, the shop and the press just add-ons. It might be Tindall threw it out to Taylor and Hodgkin's "let's buy this boat". He could probably get a good price from the ol' man.
The Kangaroo is looking at about £2000 income for a London to Melbourne run minus expenses. The clipper pays for itself in half a dozen runs from London, anything on the return run is just cream.

At present I believe the venture owned the Kangaroo up until about 1860 when it became registered in Singapore. Up to then it seems it was on the Australia run. I will need to trawl more shipping intelligence of the period to see when it returns, if it returns after its late Dec 1854 run. It is back in Adelaide, from London, late '54.
It may be the Kangaroo continued to operate well after the shop shut.
The boat is the big money spinner in this venture.

Scaife did become bored with the store; he states so in correspondence. Any hope of Taylor making money on tokens is dashed after 1855 when the Sydney mint opens. Taylors pence pieces are more musings than genuine pattern tokens. Never going to happen. The whole gold coin thing is dead late 1852.
I have speculated, somewhat agreeing with Sharples, that the venture went ahead because of the store but it is the store and (more) the shipping that kept it alive after gold stabilised mid 1852.

None of the trio need the others but they all somehow end up together; at least in the stamping press Deed.
Seems the real money is in logistics but that doesn't fit in a numismatic narrative.

Still; that does not make good the Taylor private mint narrative which the Deed kills nor does it interfere with Hodgkin being onboard for Scaife's benefit, i.e. Hodgkin's Kangaroo Office.

Between the logistics, passenger moving, shop and press this venture can't go wrong.
Aspects of it did not go well, the press element, but if the Kangaroo is run by the venture up to around 1860 then it is likely nobody lost money.

fred lever · February 09, 2023, 06:25:11 AM

Hi Stephen, I look forward to reading about the "Taylor" subject in CAB, oopps, ACR.
I have an almost complete set of Coin Review in my library, started off by buying a copy back in the 1960's and being fascinated by the 1930 penny on the cover.
Coins became one of my hobbies to dabble in.
Coin magazines(s) have their ups and downs, got a bit lost for purpose back in the 2000's with title and management changes.
This new life for the mag will be very interesting, to see how it pans out.
I have an old age perspective so can look back as well as look forward.
Cheers, Fred.

seedyrom · February 09, 2023, 07:35:04 AM

Does anyone see such rumours, urban legends and myths happening in the modern era?

In 100 years, will there be cryptocoin numismatics debating whether there really was too much Borobi?

JeffH · February 09, 2023, 09:25:57 AM

Sorry to disillusion you but any amount of Borobi is too much.

seedyrom · February 09, 2023, 09:43:44 AM

OUTRAGEOUS!!!

Billenben · February 09, 2023, 07:21:30 PM

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='127752' dateline='1675886111'Hi Stephen, I look forward to reading about the "Taylor" subject in CAB, oopps, ACR.
I have an almost complete set of Coin Review in my library, started off by buying a copy back in the 1960's and being fascinated by the 1930 penny on the cover.
Coins became one of my hobbies to dabble in.
Coin magazines(s) have their ups and downs, got a bit lost for purpose back in the 2000's with title and management changes.
This new life for the mag will be very interesting, to see how it pans out.
I have an old age perspective so can look back as well as look forward.
Cheers, Fred.

I am interested in Coin Review May 84, Dec 77 and April 76 as i have been led to believe they all have a piece or something on David Gee.
Do you have those issues and do they have something on Gee?
I have Feb and March 79 which have small pieces on Gee but they are trial related.
The 84 (May) issue could be interesting because Gee is out of jail by then.

thanks

fred lever · February 11, 2023, 07:00:46 AM

Hi Stephen, I should have all three magazines as they are on my spreadsheet.
Unfortunately, i can only physically locate December 1977 on the shelf!
The others are "somewhere" possibly trapped in a file or folder while doing research on something.
Someone should tidy my office up!!!

Anyway page 27 of the Dec77 has a column "Stolen coins Valued at $250,000".
They say they reprint verbatim from the Daily Telegraph of 25 or 26 October.
The gist of the text is a summary of Gee being committed, alleged to pinching coins and dies from the NSW library.
Gee faces charges then allowed bail.
There is a bit of detail of the goings on of what he did wrong.
At the end of the report there is mention of the 50c piece.
Also, a very careful note a Mr James Henderson was committed for allegedly stealing coins.
Then that Kep Enderby declined to file bill against Henderson.

ACR were being VERY CAREFUL in what they printed!

I scanned the page of Dec77 and have it on file.
If you need a copy, just send me an email on my normal address as quoted in CAB and I'll return.

I'll keep a lookout for the other issues, they are in there somewhere!

Cheers, Fred.

Billenben · February 11, 2023, 10:06:55 AM

Coinworks:
"Towards the end of 1852 Taylor became aware that gold could be bought from diggers on the Ballarat fields at greatly reduced prices. His plan was to establish a private mint in Melbourne, strike gold coins and release them at their full value in London."

Actually the gold price at the end of '52 was
Oct 1 - 67.5s
Nov 1 - 68.5s
Dec 1 - 69.5s
1853
Jan 1 - 70s
(The gold price as reported in the Argus 1st of the month)
Not even close to the typical 55s we find in numismatic narratives, like that of W Roth in 1895.
The Ballarat fields, the golden triangle, all through the later half of '52 have bank agents buying up gold a lot of which is going back to Adelaide as a consequence of what the Bullion Act meant for the price of gold.

If Taylor's plan was to establish a private mint then Taylor doesn't need Hodgkin or Tindall to do that.
Taylor doesn't need to outlay £4333 being 1/3rd of the alleged £13000 venture that involved buying a brand new clipper.
Taylor doesn't send an exhibition press he picked up cheap down in Soho.
And most importantly Taylor doesn't sign an Indenture Deed that makes Reginald Scaife the biggest beneficiary of the press and equipment if Scaife's gold business, it says that in the stamping press Deed, makes money.
Taylor in fact, as evidenced by the stamping press Deed, is a 1/3 equal part owner of the stamping press and equipment and said equipment and press is leased to Scaife.
Taylor never sent a press to Australia.
Taylor's interest with the press is 2/9ths of any profit over £200 p.a..

Taylor is a minor beneficiary of a contract involving a stamping press.
A man seeking to "establish a private mint"; hardly.
There is not a lot of money in Kangaroo Office pieces if the real story is told.

Billenben · February 18, 2023, 04:53:59 PM

For those who have not yet read the Indenture Document this is it.
After you have read it ask yourself; is this Taylor sending a press to Australia to establish a private mint so he (Taylor) can produce the pattern gold pieces for national circulation?

Scaife Indenture 25 June 1853.

This Indenture made the twentyfifth day of June One thousand eight hundred and fifty three Between Thomas Hodgkin of Bedford Square in the County of
Middlesex M.D. Peter Tindall the younger of Gracechurch Street in the City of London Ship Broker and William Joseph Taylor of Little (Queen) Street in the said County of Middlesex Medallist and Die Sinker of the one part and Reginald Scaife of Bedford Square aforesaid Merchant of the other part. Whereas the said Reginald Scaife is about to sail to Australia in order to settle himself there as a Merchant And whereas the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor are the owners of a stamping press and apparatus for
the purpose of assaying and stamping gold and other metals together with dies for stamping the said gold into pieces of specific weight which have been prepared by Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor have proposed to the said Reginald Scaife that he should establish and carry on in Australia the business of purchasing Gold and Gold dust there and smelting and stamping the same by means of said stamping press and apparatus and Dies into pieces of Gold of certain specific weights and then purchasing other Gold and Gold dust by
the barter of exchange of those pieces of stamped Gold for other unstamped Gold and Gold dust. And also of associating with such business the stamping of and dealing in other metals for stamping purpose only if the occasion should require And whereas the said Reginald Scaife has agreed to such proposal and also agreed to hire of the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor the sole and exclusive use of the said stamping press Apparatus and dies for the use of his said business during the term of ten years of commerce on the expiration of two calendar months after the arrival of the said Reginald Scaife in to Australia at and under the certain rent and other payments stipulations and provisoes and conditions hereinafter contained.
And whereas in part pursuance of the said agreement the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor have shipped on board the ship Kangaroo
the said stamping press and apparatus deliverable to the said Reginald Scaife and have also furnished the said Reginald Scaife with the said dies for the purpose of
said Business. And also shall and will from time to time as and when the said dies or any of them shall be worn out or injured so as to be incapable of beneficial use during the said term on request for that purpose furnish and supply other sufficient similar dies of the same rate and quality And also shall not nor will henceforth until the expiration of said term of Ten years determinable as aforesaid furnish any stamping press dies or other apparatus for stamping Gold to any person resident in Australia or for use in that Colony And shall not nor will henceforth and until the expiration of such term of Ten years be directly or indirectly concerned in any similar or other establishments for stamping gold in Australia... the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor their respective executors administrators and assigns as and by way of certain rent for use of the said stamping press apparatus and dies the yearly rent or sum of Thirty Pounds in each and every year during the said term of ten years determinable as hereinafter is mentioned such rent to commence on
the expiration of two calendar months after the arrival of said Reginald Scaife in Australia and to be payable and paid by four equal quarterly payments in every year the first of such said rent to be payable and paid without any deduction for rates taxes or otherwise (whatsoever) and by remittance to this country in cash Gold or approved Bills on parties resident in this Country... And also shall and will in respect of every year during the said term determinable as hereinafter mentioned pay the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor in addition to the said yearly rent and by way of seigniorage a further compensation for the use of the said stamping press apparatus and dies a sum equal to two third parts of the amount by which the profits gained in the year by the said Reginald Scaife in his said business of assaying smelting stamping and dealing in Gold and other metal shall exceed the sum of Two hundred... And also shall and will engage and employ William Brown of Ewell in the County of Surrey Engineer a party nominated and
approved of the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor and in whom they place much trust and confidence as manager and superintendent of the said stamping press and apparatus during the said term and not remove the said William Brown except in case of absolute necessity without previously communicating his intention so to do to the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor and having their sanction thereto... And also that the said Reginald Scaife shall and will Assiduously and diligently exert himself in carrying on the said business of assaying smelting stamping and dealing in gold and other metals in each year aforesaid and push the same to as advantageous an extent as possible and so as to stamp as many pieces of gold and other metals in each year as may be advantageously done... and inasmuch as the said Reginald Scaife must be necessarily entrusted with dies to replace those in use when worn out or impaired by use the said Reginald Scaife his executors or administrators shall not nor will give out other dies without calling in and defacing the dies so worn out and impaired which dies are to be forthwith returned to the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor their respective executors administrators or assigns in this country And also that the said Reginald Scaife shall and will keep proper books of account and enter therein all purchases of gold and gold dust made by him and the number weight quantity and price of all gold and gold dust when smelted into gold and stamped into pieces of specific weight as aforesaid and exchanged for other gold or gold dust and so from time to time during the said term whenever the same shall happen And shall also keep like accounts of the other metals to be stamped with the said dies... Provided nevertheless that in case the said Reginald Scaife shall die before the expiration of the said period of ten years Then and thenceforth the said rent and seigniorage or further compensation shall immediately cease and determine And the said stamping press and apparatus and all dies then in the possession of the said Reginald Scaife shall be forthwith delivered to the said William Brown...

Thomas Hodgkin, William Joseph Taylor,
Peter Tindall Jr, Reginald Scaife.

Billenben · April 01, 2023, 04:38:28 PM

For those who read the Kangaroo Office piece in the new Australian Coin Review here is a little bonus; the epilogue:

The Kangaroo Office - Epilogue
Since writing the original piece on the Kangaroo Office pieces rise to fame, in spite of few minor errors in that article, I have found nothing to change the view that the pieces were elevated from meaningless to something special by Vaux in 1864.

I have wondered about the reason for the whole venture given the Taylor-centric narrative was debunked in 2005 by the Scaife Indenture of 1853. It seems nothing short of bonkers to leave London in June 1853 when it is blatantly obvious in late 1852 there is no great margin in gold, no need for gold pieces of the value purported and no chance of ever establishing a mint for a circulating currency, especially with an exhibition press. On top of all that, in September 1852 the news media in Australia is awash with stories of the Sydney Mint (9). Londoners in late '52 would not be oblivious to the approval of the first Royal Mint outside of the motherland. Why would seemingly intelligent people, Hodgkin, Tindall and Taylor, pursue the venture?

John Sharples of the Museum of Victoria puts it down to the colonial store but it seems most probable that of the three investors in the Kangaroo venture that Peter Tindall may well be the key to the whole venture. The Tindall's are ship owners and brokers (11). Throughout 1852 shipping rates go ballistic globally. We see in the early 1850's the rise of the clipper as a logistics vessel of choice and most shipping rates near double from 1851 to 1854. Through all of 1852 the graph of the changes in shipping rates (2) looks like Bitcoin on a bull run.

There is clearly some good money to be made in logistic even if the graph just levels out at 1852 prices. Shipping rates are going vertical but the cost to build a ship stays horizontal. The Kangaroo is commissioned by P Tindall in mid to late 1852 and completed by April 1853 (3). The Kangaroo is a 660 (nrt*) ton clipper (3). The build cost is likely in the £9000-10000 range based on the cost number of £17 per ton which was the cost of the Cutter Sark several years later; the Cutty Sark being a much higher specification build than the Kangaroo. There is little doubt the Kangaroo venture investors purchased the Kangaroo clipper otherwise it is hard to phantom how the whole venture cost £13000 (1).
*NRT - A measurement of the volume of a vessel that could conceivably hold cargo, measured in the same units

Tindall would have had no trouble finding people to invest in the Kangaroo on the Australia run; it seems easy money and a no-brainer to get into logistics.
Hodgkin the philanthropist (4) is the type who would have an interest in a profitable venture that helps a budding colony and by the by establishes his son in law Reginald Scaife (and wife) in what should be a relatively easy business in the Colony.
For Taylor the thought of the easy money in logistic with an opportunity to send an exhibition press to Melbourne would have been inviting.

Recall that Tindall builds the clipper and the Scaife Indenture is between 'Hodgkin and Others' and Scaife. Taylor seems to be the least significant of the three and has done what; put up an exhibition press, which he purchased for scrap price, and some dies and a few incidental pieces of equipment.

The Argus (newspaper) in Melbourne has numerous advertisements through 1852 for spaces to let. Spaces suitable to install the hand screw press and associated materials. If it really is all about Taylor and his dream of a private mint making national coinage then Taylor does not need a £13000 (1) venture, or Tindall or Hodgkin, to send this press to Port Phillip at a freight cost of around £3 per ton (5). Taylor does not need to wait for a clipper to be built. Taylor does not need a pre-fabricated store or need Scaife. Taylor does not need to become a 1/3rd owner of the press and be party to an Indenture that signs away 7/9ths of any press profit (6) to others.

You read that right; Taylor does not even own the press. Under the Scaife Indenture Taylor is a 1/3rd part owner and Taylor, Tindall and Hodgkin's are all minor beneficiaries should the press earn money (6). It's Scaife press, he has leased it, and it is Scaife's 'gold business' (6) (as Scaife refers to the concept of making the bullion rounds (10) ) and it is Scaife who stands to make the most should the gold business do well. The whole Taylor-centric narrative dies in the Indenture.

The most likely reason for the Kangaroo venture was the money to be made from logistic. At roughly £3+ per ton to move goods from London to Port Phillip a 660(nrt) clipper, the Kangaroo, is potentially worth £2000+ for a return run just on cargo, passengers worth between £15-60 pounds on top of that. Sharples is right in considering the Office itself was more a driver than the press but had Sharples seen the logistics projections then perhaps he too would have seen the real financial driver was likely logistics.

There was no real issue with the press operation being wound up before the 9th of April 1855 (7), less than 12 months after it began pressing, because it didn't matter that much to the investors. The press is advertised for sale in the Argus in August of 1855(12). The store and press arm of the venture is over mid 1855 and Scaife moves into marine insurance sales by September of 1855 (13).

The Kangaroo venture is most likely about logistics, the Kangaroo Office part of that venture is about Scaife's colonial goods store, Scaife's leased press (6) and Scaife's 'gold business'(6, 10) but these are not where the money was to made, they are just add-ons.

The Kangaroo makes it run to Port Phillip in 1853 and then returns to England. It then returns to Adelaide on the 24 Dec 1854(

. After this I haven't pursued its history. A couple more runs and the investors are likely to be looking towards some profit, even if they sell the clipper. I do not think the Kangaroo venture was the financial disaster the Taylor-centric story cries. It may have made good money if the Kangaroo kept running, somewhere, up to about 1860.

Of course none of the above changes that the Kangaroo Office pieces did not sell and were meaningless until Vaux in 1864 but it does better explain why it is likely the venture went ahead when it seemed absolutely absurd to proceed.

References
1.      https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...%20australia
2.      A Repeat Sailings Index of Ocean Freight Rates for the 1850s_Jan Tore Klovland Norwegian School of Economics and Business Administration
3.      http://sunderlandships.com/view.php?year_built=&builder=&ref=157056&vessel=KANGAROO
4.      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(01)16381-6/fulltext
5.      https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4802521
6.      https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Stamping_press_sales_document_1853
7.      https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4808508?searchTerm=scaife
8.      https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/49198369
9.      https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=Sydney%20mint&l-artType=newspapers&l-decade=185&l-year=1852&l-month=9
10. https://numismatics.org.au/naa-journal/2006/ J. Sharples
11. https://britanniapandi.com/about/history/
12. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154894641?searchTerm=scaife
13. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4817273?searchTerm=scaife

Billenben · April 01, 2023, 04:44:35 PM

The 'big bad' press that the top screws out of and 4 burly guys could man handle.
This is the actual Kangaroo Office press. As seen on the Kangaroo Office token.

https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/729171

Quote from: 'Billenben' pid='127814' dateline='1676701439'For those who have not yet read the Indenture Document this is it.
After you have read it ask yourself; is this Taylor sending a press to Australia to establish a private mint so he (Taylor) can produce the pattern gold pieces for national circulation?

Scaife Indenture 25 June 1853.

This Indenture made the twentyfifth day of June One thousand eight hundred and fifty three Between Thomas Hodgkin of Bedford Square in the County of
Middlesex M.D. Peter Tindall the younger of Gracechurch Street in the City of London Ship Broker and William Joseph Taylor of Little (Queen) Street in the said County of Middlesex Medallist and Die Sinker of the one part and Reginald Scaife of Bedford Square aforesaid Merchant of the other part. Whereas the said Reginald Scaife is about to sail to Australia in order to settle himself there as a Merchant And whereas the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor are the owners of a stamping press and apparatus for
the purpose of assaying and stamping gold and other metals together with dies for stamping the said gold into pieces of specific weight which have been prepared by Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor have proposed to the said Reginald Scaife that he should establish and carry on in Australia the business of purchasing Gold and Gold dust there and smelting and stamping the same by means of said stamping press and apparatus and Dies into pieces of Gold of certain specific weights and then purchasing other Gold and Gold dust by
the barter of exchange of those pieces of stamped Gold for other unstamped Gold and Gold dust. And also of associating with such business the stamping of and dealing in other metals for stamping purpose only if the occasion should require And whereas the said Reginald Scaife has agreed to such proposal and also agreed to hire of the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor the sole and exclusive use of the said stamping press Apparatus and dies for the use of his said business during the term of ten years of commerce on the expiration of two calendar months after the arrival of the said Reginald Scaife in to Australia at and under the certain rent and other payments stipulations and provisoes and conditions hereinafter contained.
And whereas in part pursuance of the said agreement the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor have shipped on board the ship Kangaroo
the said stamping press and apparatus deliverable to the said Reginald Scaife and have also furnished the said Reginald Scaife with the said dies for the purpose of
said Business. And also shall and will from time to time as and when the said dies or any of them shall be worn out or injured so as to be incapable of beneficial use during the said term on request for that purpose furnish and supply other sufficient similar dies of the same rate and quality And also shall not nor will henceforth until the expiration of said term of Ten years determinable as aforesaid furnish any stamping press dies or other apparatus for stamping Gold to any person resident in Australia or for use in that Colony And shall not nor will henceforth and until the expiration of such term of Ten years be directly or indirectly concerned in any similar or other establishments for stamping gold in Australia... the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor their respective executors administrators and assigns as and by way of certain rent for use of the said stamping press apparatus and dies the yearly rent or sum of Thirty Pounds in each and every year during the said term of ten years determinable as hereinafter is mentioned such rent to commence on
the expiration of two calendar months after the arrival of said Reginald Scaife in Australia and to be payable and paid by four equal quarterly payments in every year the first of such said rent to be payable and paid without any deduction for rates taxes or otherwise (whatsoever) and by remittance to this country in cash Gold or approved Bills on parties resident in this Country... And also shall and will in respect of every year during the said term determinable as hereinafter mentioned pay the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor in addition to the said yearly rent and by way of seigniorage a further compensation for the use of the said stamping press apparatus and dies a sum equal to two third parts of the amount by which the profits gained in the year by the said Reginald Scaife in his said business of assaying smelting stamping and dealing in Gold and other metal shall exceed the sum of Two hundred... And also shall and will engage and employ William Brown of Ewell in the County of Surrey Engineer a party nominated and
approved of the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor and in whom they place much trust and confidence as manager and superintendent of the said stamping press and apparatus during the said term and not remove the said William Brown except in case of absolute necessity without previously communicating his intention so to do to the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor and having their sanction thereto... And also that the said Reginald Scaife shall and will Assiduously and diligently exert himself in carrying on the said business of assaying smelting stamping and dealing in gold and other metals in each year aforesaid and push the same to as advantageous an extent as possible and so as to stamp as many pieces of gold and other metals in each year as may be advantageously done... and inasmuch as the said Reginald Scaife must be necessarily entrusted with dies to replace those in use when worn out or impaired by use the said Reginald Scaife his executors or administrators shall not nor will give out other dies without calling in and defacing the dies so worn out and impaired which dies are to be forthwith returned to the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor their respective executors administrators or assigns in this country And also that the said Reginald Scaife shall and will keep proper books of account and enter therein all purchases of gold and gold dust made by him and the number weight quantity and price of all gold and gold dust when smelted into gold and stamped into pieces of specific weight as aforesaid and exchanged for other gold or gold dust and so from time to time during the said term whenever the same shall happen And shall also keep like accounts of the other metals to be stamped with the said dies... Provided nevertheless that in case the said Reginald Scaife shall die before the expiration of the said period of ten years Then and thenceforth the said rent and seigniorage or further compensation shall immediately cease and determine And the said stamping press and apparatus and all dies then in the possession of the said Reginald Scaife shall be forthwith delivered to the said William Brown...

Thomas Hodgkin, William Joseph Taylor,
Peter Tindall Jr, Reginald Scaife.

Billenben · October 31, 2023, 04:26:57 PM

Walter Roth came to Australia initially (1887) as a medical student, probably because of an affair of the heart. With his ladylove, he stayed for four years. He returned to London, and emigrated again as a newly graduated doctor in 1892. It is W E Roth who starts the inaccurate Kangaroo Office narrative we see circulating in Australian numismatics. Roth is a well know in numismatics. He authors a series of pieces that appear in the press in Queensland in 1895.

Extract from A Numismatic History of Australia - The Queenslander, 27 July 1895.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...%20australia

"With the discovery and glut of gold in the early fifties a distinct epoch was marked in Australasian economic history. Fortunately there are still some interesting relics extant of these momentous years, such as the Adelaide ingots and tokens (which are referred to in the section dealing with local gold coinage); but the most noteworthy are certainly the gold pieces issued from the Kangaroo Office. The following notes relative to theses specimens, now published for the first time, have been gathered from a personal interview with Mr Reginald Scaife the manager of the office in question whom I called upon during my last visit to England some three years ago.
At the end of 1852 or the beginning of 1853 news reached the old country that Ballarat gold was selling on the field for £2 15s per ounce. The idea of the promoters, Messrs Hodgkin, Taylor and Tyndall was to open a large store in Melbourne and issue over the counter pieces of 2, 1, ½ and ¼ oz gold that should pass at current values of 8, 4, 2 and £1 respectively. With this object in view a fully rigged ship of 600 tons, the Kangaroo, was chartered and in her was forwarded an abundant supply of stores of various descriptions. She arrived in Hobson's Bay on October 23rd 1853. Messrs Scaife and Morgan Brown, the later now deceased, were sent out as managers and in their charge were places the dies for the gold pieces all of which had been designed and executed by W J Taylor the late head of the present celebrated London firm of die sinkers. In Melbourne however owing to delays of various kinds, no machinery for stamping the coins could be set up for quite 6 months by which time there was a glut of English sovereigns in the colonial market and the value of the precious metal rose to £4 4s an ounce. When therefore everything was in readiness and the managers thoroughly prepared to execute orders no profit was to be found in issuing a one-ounce gold piece for £4. The whole affair thus speedily collapsed."

A good place to start is the claim gold, late 1852, early 1853 was being sold for 55 shillings.
The gold price as reported in the Melbourne Argus;
Oct 1 1852 - 67.5s
Nov 1 1852 - 68.5s
Dec 1 1852 - 69.5s
Jan 1 1853 - 70s
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/88631/507910

You might find a 55 shillings price in late 1851 in the diggings but by mid 1852 the banks have agents in the field. The assertions of Roth are not backed with fact. You will also not find gold being sold for 84 shillings in 1853/54 and you will also find that the price does not rise markedly between the Kangaroo arriving in Oct 1853 and the Office opening ~April 1854. In the Melbourne Argus in Oct of 1853 gold was 79s and in the Argus in April of 1854 it was a shilling higher at 80s (£4). There is no significant change between arrival and the shop opening as asserted by Roth.

"The Kangaroo was chartered"?
Research indicates the Kangaroo was purchased by the 3 messrs if the rumoured cost of the whole venture was actually £13000. The Kangaroo, the original owner P Tindall (Tyndall), was worth about £9000-10000 as a new ship launched on March of 1853. The 3 messers (Hodgkin, Tindall and Taylor) can't reasonably have spent £13000 unless they purchased the clipper.

The bullion rounds, Kangaroo Office pieces, are referred to as specimens. We typically use the "specimen" term for high quality examples of currency from a mint. "Specimens" is not a term to describe a bullion round made with a hand screw exhibition press out the back of what almost appears to be, at the time, a bottle shop.

There is an advertisement in the Argus in April of 1854 where we see Reg. Scaife of Franklyn St West selling brandy, port, sherry, madeira and tobacco. Scaife appears to be running what you might call a bottle shop.

According to the Argus of the 26th Oct 1853, the Kangaroo arrives on the 25th, not the 23rd.
The alleged glut of sovereign came during mid to late 1852 arguably because of the Bullion Act. The issues with currency shortages in the colony were over by the start of 1853.
Scaife was the manager of the store and Brown his assistant (in charge of the press), that is in the Indenture Deed referenced in the Kangaroo Office piece in the March 2023 issue of ACR.
Roth account is rather unreliable on numerous fronts.
Roths' piece in the Queenslander goes on to claim all the dies were thrown in Hobson Bay as per instruction from Scaife to Brown. Roth says this is "probably beyond doubt" after his search of London and Melbourne for the dies. Roth can't have looked too hard if he didn't go down to Stokes and have a look around.

We know a number of dies reside at the Victoria Museum. The Roth piece is just error after error and baseless assertion after baseless assertion. The whole Roth piece is littered with factual error and assertions with no foundation. So much of it is just not accurate. Yet if we read a narrative from a typical Australian numismatic site on Kangaroo Office pieces it is likely to be essentially the Roth narrative.