Thoughts on Die Clashes?

[Fulvio]

A couple of things tonight got me thinking about die clashes and how they really occur. So this is me thinking aloud.

First came the discussion on the MNS group about AJ's clash: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1430907327204766/permalink/1553969028231928/ in which some doubts were raised regarding alignment.

And then I read this from AJ:

I need some dies next, imagine the errors I could create mawhahaha

Now, it seems to me, given that raised areas on a coin are incused in the die, these clashes mush have been pressed into the opposing die. So far, so good.

BUT... the detail on the opposing die is also incused. So when they come together, only the fields should make contact, right? So how, exactly, does the image get impressed into the opposing die?

It could occur at an earlier stage, with positive rather than negative images. But then these would be far more prevalent, surely? And anyway, hobs don't go anywhere near coining presses. And if two hobs came together, the image would be in the relief, not the field of the opposing face.

No, it must be a positive coming into contact with a negative. A clash of a die with either a coin or a hob, not with another die.

I can't really see it being a coin either. The contacts are consistent across multiple years, and if a coin had caused it, the position would surely be random.

Which leaves only one possibility in my mind. :idea: The error must occur at the hobbing stage, perhaps with a die being mistakenly applied to the wrong hob. Is it possible that, perhaps due to the cost of dies, they actually try and rescue them after such errors, perhaps hoping noone would notice?

I'm confused. :dodgy:

[wwwww]

BUT... the detail on the opposing die is also incused. So when they come together, only the fields should make contact, right? So how, exactly, does the image get impressed into the opposing die?

The same way the impression goes on the coin.

[r9453]

BUT... the detail on the opposing die is also incused. So when they come together, only the fields should make contact, right? So how, exactly, does the image get impressed into the opposing die?

This is a happy coincidence for me, since I was recently looking at a 1941Y penny I received.

When you say only the fields make contact, I know what you mean and that is correct. However the obverse and reverse fields don't necessarily line up. So, with my 1941Y penny the king's effigy is clearly visible (ghost-like and incused) in the fields on the reverse (facing to the right) above and below the kangaroo.

I don't think the "impression" (of the king) is completely transferred to the reverse die. Its mainly the outline - hence the terms "ghosting" or "showing through".

Note, there is no evidence of the kangaroo on the obverse of the coin.

You can see it best with the coin in hand but here is the PCGS image:
 


EDIT: This one is similar:



EDIT: I'm not sure these 1941 pennies do exhibit die clash, it might be ghosting.

[Fulvio]

However the obverse and reverse fields don't necessarily line up.

OK, this is a good example, since it has broad fields.

So, I can accept the fields don't line up. Where the dies make contact and one has a void, the opposing die would certainly deform around the edge. But wouldn't that deformation be into the cavity, producing a higher area on the affected die, and therefore a depression on the coins subsequently struck?

For there to be a raised ghost on the coin, there must be a depression on the die, which in turn means contact with a raised area, no?

[r9453]

For there to be a raised ghost on the coin, there must be a depression on the die, which in turn means contact with a raised area, no?

I agree there is something counter-intuitive going on or maybe I don't get it, yet.

From what I can tell, looking at my coin in hand (through the PCGS holder) the "ghost" of the king appears to be incuse but mainly around the outline and where the kangaroo intersects with the king.

The reverse die appears to be only altered in the fields. The kangaroo and the 19 are unaffected.

[gnome]

Can someone overlay one picture over the other for the 50 cent piece. I'm still with the clashed die and it's hair.