What's the difference between fake, replica and copy. And are any worth anything and what one's? :good:
first guess would be,
fake is trying to be a coin passing as a real coin.
replica and copies usually are stamped with "replica or copy" or they can be the same coin design but are made of different materials.
but I will do a search to get the real definitions
fake: a counterfeit coin meant to deceive, Slang for a counterfeit or altered coin
replica: A copy or reproduction of a coin, usually marked as such and not designed to fool the collector.
copy: a replica of a real coin, usually meant to deceive. A copy is designed to be exactly like the real thing (although there are almost always noticeable differences). Specifically, it is made from the correct metal.
My thoughts;
I think a fake is a forged copy of an original and intended to deceive. In coins, not minted at the original mint
A copy can be both but a legal copy has 'copy 'on it in a way that it can't be removed'. Usually copies have some variation from the original design, well, that I what I notice
A replica is an exact copy that is openly known i.e. a replica tall ship, replica coin that might be on display in a museum , something like that.
I reckon that on e-bay - the fakes, replicas and copies are the 'too good to be true' listings of true varieties 'deceased estate, unwanted inheritance'' often accompanied with blurry photos or in capsules
ha ha - well that is my off the cuff thoughts Ausjack
Hi AC
sorry - I didn't see your post
rob
that's what I was thinking :good: so what one's are worth money as some are apparently..I ask as the bloke at the markets has a few and there's one he's got a few hundred bucks on and I've heard some fakes are worth more than the real thing.
NO fake is worth more than the real thing, unless they are being deceitful and selling them as real.
I have seen coin shops with copies and they sell for $30 tops each, that the 1930 penny, nude horsey man, and other dates that were never made.
I can get them direct from the guy who make them for a lot less, I have given heaps away as gifts
Replicas can be worth more, like when the mint produces replicas as silver proofs. But there's never any doubt that they are replicas, whether its a different metal, the date, being one-sided (like the Perth Mint papeweights), or being stamped as such.
Copies and Fakes aren't worth anything, and can even land you in hot water for possessing counterfeits.
Here's a post I made some time ago over on CCF that outlines my personal definitions of the various words used to describe non-genuine coins:
"Copy", "fake" and "phony" are synonyms, generic terms indicating anything non-genuine, or where the intent of the people that made it is uncertain or unknown.
A "counterfeit" is a coin intended to fool. A "circulating counterfeit" is intended to pass as money and fool ordinary people who would receive it in change or in the till; a "numismatic counterfeit" is intended to fool we collectors.
"Forgery" I would use specifically for a "circulating counterfeit".
A "replica" or "reproduction" is a coin not intended to fool anybody - even though a novice might nevertheless be fooled anyway. Replicas are often sold to tourists (hence they are also known as "tourist copies" or "tourist fakes") who visit historic places and wish to buy a cheap souvenir. Sometimes the people that hawk these things to the tourists tell them they're repros, sometimes they don't. Extremely rare coins might also have replicas made for collectors, because very few people could afford a real one and some collectors would rather have a replica than nothing at all.
"Imitation" is a broader word, meaning a coin that is made to more or less resemble another coin. The imitation could even be a perfectly legal coin, made by another country in hope that the original coin's acceptability would rub off on the imitation as well.
An "evasion" is a class of imitation that also has aspects of the counterfeit; it is designed to look similar enough to a genuine coin to pass as one at first glance, but has distinct and obvious differences in design such as mis-spelled or incorrect words, such that a second glance will easily reveal its true nature (and hopefully get them found not guilty of counterfeiting if they get caught). Evasion British guineas and sovereigns and ZAR Kruger ponds, produced as card game tokens, are common.
A "fantasy" is a coin that looks like it might be genuine, but in fact "genuine coins" with that design never actually existed. There are Edward VIII "fantasy coins" struck in the name of every country that was in the British Empire in 1936, for example.
A "restrike" is an exact duplicate of an old coin, with correct weight and fineness, made with official dies and usually at an official mint with some sort of government sanction (though an "unofficial restrike" is also possible, made from official dies that have fallen into private hands).
Quote from: 'Australian coin' pid='13562' dateline='1367482178'NO fake is worth more than the real thing, unless they are being deceitful and selling them as real.
I would disagree with that general statement in certain instances. The value of fake coins, as with any other artefact, is determined by supply and demand. The "supply" of some fakes is limited, but for some it is not. As for "demand", you really need a famous fake, or the product of a famous fakemaster, to generate it.
"Omega Man" fake American gold coins are worth just as much, if not more than, genuine gold coins of the same type. "Becker" counterfeit ancient coins are hundreds of years old and are so highly sought after that "fake Becker counterfeits" are not unknown - in other words, the fake coins themselves are being faked.
Here in Australia, the most famous fakemaster is probably David Allen Gee. His fakes, if any are in private hands, would be worth considerably more than their gold or silver content if they were properly identified as a Gee fake - but since the only coins Gee seems to have faked are super-rarities like the 1909 "map" florin and the Australian-minted multiple-sovereigns, they still are never worth more than an original one would be.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='13563' dateline='1367483968'Copies and Fakes aren't worth anything, and can even land you in hot water for possessing counterfeits.
The only fake coins that are illegal to sell or own in Australia are decimal coins. Owning and non-fraudulently selling predecimal and foreign fakes is perfectly legal here.
What an excellent and comprehensive post. Where's the +1 button when you need it? :)
Thanks heaps Sap :good: i'll see if I can get a pic of it..might have to do a little sweet talkin :winkextra:
Royal Australian Mint:
Articles resembling genuine Australian currency coins
It is a criminal offence under the Crimes (Currency) Act 1981 (Cth) to produce an article that resembles a genuine coin. If you produce replica money, and it is possible that a person might be deceived into thinking that the replica money is genuine Australian currency, you may have committed an offence under the Crimes (Currency) Act 1981 (Cth). The penalty for making counterfeit money is imprisonment for 14 years for an individual, and $75,000 for a body corporate. You may also be guilty of an offence if you sell or possess articles which resemble genuine coins.
You should seek legal advice if you propose to make or sell an article that resembles genuine Australian currency.
Copyright
The Commonwealth holds copyright in the designs and images used on Australian currency coins which were created after 1 May 1969. Copyright gives the copyright owner the exclusive right to reproduce designs and images from two-dimensional to three-dimensional form, and vice versa. Reproduction of designs and images without the permission of the copyright owner will be an infringement of copyright. If you do something that infringes another person's copyright, a court can order you to stop the infringing conduct and pay damages to the copyright owner.
In certain circumstances the Mint may agree to allow members of the public to reproduce coin designs in which it holds copyright. The Mint will not ordinarily grant approval for the reproduction of coin designs on articles which will be commercially produced and offered for sale (for example, articles such as T-shirts or coffee mugs). The Mint will also not grant approval for the reproduction of coin designs in a manner which could lead a person to believe that the Mint has endorsed the product, or is in some way associated with the product. If you wish to reproduce coin designs you should contact the Mint. Failure to do so may result in a breach of copyright and legal action by the Mint.
Quote from: 'Australian coin' pid='13562' dateline='1367482178'NO fake is worth more than the real thing, unless they are being deceitful and selling them as real.
There's a poster over on the CCF who collects contemporary forgeries of Mexican / Spanish colonial coins from the 17th through to the 19th century. I've seem him post up forgeries a number of times that are worth more than the real coin.
There's also a contemporary forgery of the 1928 shilling that's worth more than the real thing (in lower grades at least).
Most of the supposed Manders / Twible forged florins will get more than the real coin in lower grades too.
Thanks Mark, that's them..the manders and twibble :good: here's a bit on them if anyone's interested http://www.triton.vg/Manders.html http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5041721
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='13669' dateline='1367658157'Thanks Mark, that's them..the manders and twibble :good: here's a bit on them if anyone's interested http://www.triton.vg/Manders.html http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5041721
That second link is interesting Ausjack. It's from 1905, 20 years before the dates on the forged florins. Clearly the Twibbles were counterfeiting British coins quite a bit earlier than Australia florins!
Very interesting link AJ. That was 1905 when Twibble was caught, no mention of Manders. Interestingly they were locked up in the Melbourne city watch house. Mark and I did the tourist thing a few weeks ago in Melbourne and got locked up in that same watch house!
Interesting, fake half-sovereigns too.
Twibble clearly couldn't help himself.
Did you read what they used as a lath, pretty funny and there's some other good stories there as well.
Yeah, clearly no small-time operation.
Speaking of counterfeiting operations, saw an interesting docco on Foxtel last night. The presenter went to Argentina to find the scams used against tourists. Usual stuff, pickpockets, ladies of the night spiking drinks, shonky cab drivers, that sort of thing.
Anyway, he got passed some counterfeit notes, and ended up tracking down the guy who made them. Old bloke, nice guy actually, and not at all the expected mobster type. Reckons its so easy to do, and he'd made something like $12 million worth, and he's not the only one doing it. Rio's awash in counterfeits it seems.
Maybe us clever aussies should go and flog them some of our excellent plastic money and put these crooks out of business. :)
That's fine Fulvio but are you prepared "to do the time" if caught?
LOL.. I meant us as in the RBA, not you and me personally. We already produce notes for a heap of countries, why not them too?