http://www.geek.com/news/casascius-gorgeous-physical-bitcoins-that-have-real-value-1550847/
(http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/10btc.jpg)
I can't help but wonder what the numismatic implications are of physical representations of virtual currency. Will these be like phonecards, where the value is related to the balance embedded in them? Once spent, will they still be worth anything? Or will everyone just ignore them because they weren't issued by a government? If so, what happens if some government climbs aboard the bandwagon?
Long term, I feel we're heading towards a global virtual currency. Bitcoins may not be it, but something like them are definitely the future of money. And where does that leave collectors?
The concept of "bitcoins" as a virtual currency is quite interesting.
I am somewhat amazed that they have managed to get any traction at all, but now that they seem to have some traction, what will happen next?
I think there is a very high chance that it all falls in a heap, but if it does not and you have some of the virtual bitcoins you could do very well out of them.
I think the physical representation you have shown is a "produced for collectors" item - they will never end up getting used as a way to pay for things.
It is just a way for someone to flog a product they have made and promote the virtual bitcoins.
I've been looking at getting a physical Bitcoin for the last couple of week. Three weeks ago 1 Bitcoin cost $173. Last week it was $120. This week $65! Seems very linked to the price of Gold :-)
I don't think there is any reason for bitcoin price to be linked to the price of gold.
I think the price is just very volatile.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='12223' dateline='1366152621'I don't think there is any reason for bitcoin price to be linked to the price of gold.
I think the price is just very volatile.
You're right that they're not linked but both offer alternatives to fiat as this interesting article from Alan Kohler (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-17/kohler-value-bitcoin-gold/4634020) points out.
The volatility all comes down to the attacks on some of the Bitcoin exchanges. There have been ongoing DDoS attacks which have taken them down repeatedly and made people nervous. At the end of the day money is all about trust, and if people get spooked, any currency is toast.
BTW, those physical coins have embedded currency in them, so they're sort of like metal phonecards. ;)
I collect some "out there" stuff , But these are even to weird for Me :angel:
Gold is king, but there may be a better way to store wealth (http://www.smh.com.au/money/investing/gold-is-king-but-there-may-be-a-better-way-to-store-wealth-20140313-34oki.html)
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='43850' dateline='1394818340'Gold is king, but there may be a better way to store wealth (http://www.smh.com.au/money/investing/gold-is-king-but-there-may-be-a-better-way-to-store-wealth-20140313-34oki.html)
Good article. As he says, volatility is the problem. The only way to fix that is for it to become more widespread.
Bitcoin...a virtual currency that's irrevevant to normal people
Sydney Bitcoin ATM opens
GIZMO GUY
ADAM TURNER
Australia's first Bitcoin automatic teller machine has appeared in a Westfield shopping centre as the virtual currency fights for mainstream legitimacy.
Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency that exists only in a digital format, not physical coins or notes. The difficulty in tracing bitcoin transactions has made it popular for shady online deals, but a growing number of legitimate businesses – online and in the real world – have started accepting payments in Bitcoin.
Australia's first Bitcoin ATM, at Westfield on Pitt Street, in Sydney's CBD, lets users trade the virtual currency for Australian dollars. It also lets people buy Bitcoins and transfer them to their digital ''wallet''. One Bitcoin is now worth about $550 but the exchange rate fluctuates wildly – it was $1350 last November and $280 in February. Bitcoins can be broken down to eight decimal places for small transactions.
The world's first Bitcoin ATM appeared in a Vancouver cafe in October. The backer of Australia's first machine, ABA Technology, plans to install ATMs in other Australian capital cities soon, and aims to have 100 machines around the country by 2015 and more than 500 globally by 2016.
Controversy still surrounds the creation of Bitcoin almost six years ago and the cryptocurrency has met with a mixed reception from financial institutions and regulators around the world. Former United States Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan described Bitcoin as a bubble with no intrinsic value. Meanwhile, Australia's Reserve Bank governor, Glenn Stevens, expressed cautious optimism about the potential of cryptocurrencies.
The past year has seen a spate of thefts, with the virtual heists claiming Bitcoins worth millions of dollars.
The bankruptcy of major Bitcoin exchange Mt Gox has also cast a shadow over the currency's future. The National Australia Bank recently announced plans to cut ties with business customers who primarily traded in cryptocurrencies.
(http://smh.digitaleditions.com.au/olive/ode/smh_daily/server/GetContent.asp?contentsrc=primitive&dochref=SMH%2F2014%2F04%2F28&entityid=Pc05704&pageno=57&chunkid=Pc05704&repformat=1.0&primid=Pc0570400&imgext=jpg¤tpublicationname=SMH&type=Content&for=primitive)
A good sign: The ATM in Vancouver.
Webjet starts accepting Bitcoins for holiday packages (http://www.smh.com.au/business/webjet-starts-accepting-bitcoins-for-holiday-packages-20150204-1360r3.html)
telstra thinking of accepting them as payment, in the newspaper
Quote from: 'Australian coin' pid='70371' dateline='1428626570'telstra thinking of accepting them as payment, in the newspaper
That would be huge. So far, crypto acceptance has been either at the niche, 'micro' end of the scale, or the mega end, for things like cars, houses, travel. What we really need is normal, everyday uses.
It will come, and once the floodgates open, things will change overnight.
But Bitcoin is still remarkably poorly suited to say shopping at Coles. That 10 minute block time means you're waiting for an hour for confirmations, and that's just unacceptable at the checkout.
Which is where Dogecoin shines, of course.
BTW, I'm thinking of holding a little competition, with a coin as the prize, using Dogecoins for entry. Might be a good idea to head over to my webpage at fulvio55.altervista.org and pick up the dogecoin survival guide and a paper wallet generator, and visit some of the linked faucets to earn a small stash of coins in readiness. ;)
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/is-a-blockchain-without-bitcoin-possible-or-practical-cm482964
So, NASDAQ appear to have thought about the blockchain enough to realise that it needs value behind it. IE: A cryptocurrency. Which naturally they assume to be Bitcoin (something I don't quite agree with, but meh).
I have been wondering where IBM's IoT blockchain was going to get its computing power, and this was, at least to me, the elephant in the room. I just wouldn't trust IBM, Apple, MS, or any other big company to control a network that reached in and touched every electronic device I possessed, right down to smart lightbulbs and door locks. And I can't see people throwing their own hardware and electricity at it for no reward.
Still, all this discussion, and announcements by banks like CBA that they're wading in, bode well. Just like every other great leap forward, we're approaching the pivot point where all the people scoffing will get blown aside, and probably become fervent adopters. ;)
Personally I think most of the current acceptance is purely a type of speculative investment considering the fluctuations however if banks begin investing which I highly doubt as Bitcoins would be exceptionally risky and marginal in terms of APRA. It is this type of speculative investment which caused the GFC in America but hey they might as well replace their Housing Boom with an even more speculative Cryptocurrency Boom.
I am not against the theory of it but it is too speculative for any bank or moderate to large firm to invest substantially in. It would also play havoc with the key role of the finance sector in terms of effectiveness of potential changes in monetary and fiscal policies.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='73886' dateline='1433429465'purely a type of speculative investment
This is precisely what a large part of the Dogecoin community has against Bitcoin. The massive spike from virtually nothing to $1,200, and the subsequent crash, had virtually nothing to do with using it as a currency.
Dogecoin, OTOH, was, apart from the joke aspect, designed to work, and work extremely well, as a currency. Sure, you still get people who buy in in the hopes of getting rich, but the same can be said for any market. I just posted about Silver the other day for example, in this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/387ueh/so_you_think_the_doge_price_is_volatile_eh_check/
A currency works differently to a store of wealth, as we all should know. Every dollar in your pocket or bank account is worth less than it was yesterday, last year or last decade, and it will be worth less tomorrow. Its not designed to hold or increase in value, its designed to be used, and spent.
Cryptos are no different, and people need to understand that. The value of my Dogecoins, or my Bitcoins or any other currency I may hold lies in what I can do with them. Which is to pay anyone, anywhere, absolutely securely, basically for free, and in almost complete privacy. Almost, because every transaction is permanently recorded, and if I allow one transaction to be matched to me, every other transaction on that same wallet is open to inspection.
Compare this to using say PayPal, where its far from free, instant or secure. Where you are subject to the whims of a for-profit foreign corporation, which is known to feed data directly into various spy agencies.
I'll take cryptos any day, thank you very much. :angel:
But the thing is this currency is not backed by anyone or anything and being international it breaks so many economic theories that if it ever did become widespread it would ruin the global economy far faster and stronger than any prior economic collapse.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='73914' dateline='1433469364'But the thing is this currency is not backed by anyone or anything and being international it breaks so many economic theories that if it ever did become widespread it would ruin the global economy far faster and stronger than any prior economic collapse.
Ummmm, you totally miss the point.
(https://i.imgur.com/7snOiFF.gif)
Cryptos don't
need to be backed by some faceless guy doing shonky deals in a backroom, or sleazy politician pulling strings. Because they're backed by
EVERYONE. They can't be tampered with on a whim like fiat currencies are. Perhaps you've forgotten the days when we'd wake up on a Sunday morning and find out that our dollar was now worth less than it was on Saturday, but that happened to everyone who had mortgages in Swiss Francs quite recently.
See, I think you're confusing market forces with economic controls here. Sure, the price of say Dogecoin spiked recently, then gave half the gains back, then spiked again, but its still worth 77% more than it was a month ago. So what? Look at the price charts for A$, Silver, Gold, Iron ore, or any share you care to name... they're all volatile. That's how markets work.
However, cryptos cannot be manipulated on a fundamental level. Tony Abbot can't wake up one day and say
"I'm going to overprint all our money and make it a thousand times more" when we're talking cryptos. He can do this to the money in our pockets, and its been done more than once before... remember a wheelbarrow of Deutschmarks to buy a loaf of bread?
Now, if you think its a bad thing to have a stable currency, which holds its value simultaneously everywhere in the world, well, what can I say? I totally fail to see how that's a bad thing, or how it has any chance of leading to disaster.
Besides, like it or not, this stuff is definitely coming. Because the advantages and savings
FAR outweigh any misguided fears and resistance. Everything new meets resistance. Remember how decimal currency was going to drive all the old people mad and lead to them losing their life savings? The media had a field day shoving cameras in little old ladies faces... but the meltdown never happened. And neither will this one.
The only major concern I have is that every vested interest on the planet is trying desperately to gain control of cryptocurrency for themselves.
http://www.coindesk.com/coindesk-guide-worlds-national-altcoins/
And now Ecuador, which banned Bitcoin and introduced its own crypto, is forcing all financial institutions to use it.
http://panampost.com/belen-marty/2015/05/31/ecuadorian-banks-must-adopt-official-electronic-currency-or-else/
See the trend here? Nobody is saying cryptos are bad. Quite the opposite. But what they're saying is any crypto ***I*** can't control is bad, so I'll make my own, then I'll force everyone I control to use it, and prevent them from using anything else. They want to centralise decentralised currency, with themselves at the center, naturally.
Which is a shortsighted recipe for disaster. We already have two 'Aussie' coins. If the government adds a third, how long do you think it would be before we have VicCoin and QldCoin, let alone SydCoin and PerthCoin and a hundred other shitcoins? NABcoin? Check. ANZcoin? Definitely... Because while you can't trust the bastards, you can absolutely predict how they're going to think.
Thing is, it doesn't have to be like that. We have a couple of solid cryptocurrencies already, and all it takes is mass adoption to push back against the dark forces. Because even if you only have one wallet, with a hundred Dogecoin or a few satoshis in it, you're waaaaaaay ahead of all the Luddites with their heads buried in the sand. And we all know that burying your head in the sand turns you into a great bike rack, right? :diablo:
BEWARE!!
Bitcoin (and the many copycats) is a fad and will result in huge losses for those who spend big dollars to own these 20 - 30 - 40 or so digit cyberspace numbers to own.
It can never be a hard coin and when the power goes off how and where will one claim its value?
What is it backed by?
Gold, silver, copper, dog excrement?
the Internet?
It is just a variation of a fiat currency/money having only a perceived value without any true intrinsic value!
I have SULLACOINS for sale.
Only $1000.
Soon I will have toulla coins for sale and agappi coins and voulla coins.
Please send me your cash and I will send your 40 characters of gibbersish that you can cash in at a local.....
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='73925' dateline='1433482951'Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='73914' dateline='1433469364'But the thing is this currency is not backed by anyone or anything and being international it breaks so many economic theories that if it ever did become widespread it would ruin the global economy far faster and stronger than any prior economic collapse.
Ummmm, you totally miss the point.
(https://i.imgur.com/7snOiFF.gif)
Cryptos don't need to be backed by some faceless guy doing shonky deals in a backroom, or sleazy politician pulling strings. Because they're backed by EVERYONE. They can't be tampered with on a whim like fiat currencies are. Perhaps you've forgotten the days when we'd wake up on a Sunday morning and find out that our dollar was now worth less than it was on Saturday, but that happened to everyone who had mortgages in Swiss Francs quite recently.
See, I think you're confusing market forces with economic controls here. Sure, the price of say Dogecoin spiked recently, then gave half the gains back, then spiked again, but its still worth 77% more than it was a month ago. So what? Look at the price charts for A$, Silver, Gold, Iron ore, or any share you care to name... they're all volatile. That's how markets work.
However, cryptos cannot be manipulated on a fundamental level. Tony Abbot can't wake up one day and say "I'm going to overprint all our money and make it a thousand times more" when we're talking cryptos. He can do this to the money in our pockets, and its been done more than once before... remember a wheelbarrow of Deutschmarks to buy a loaf of bread?
Now, if you think its a bad thing to have a stable currency, which holds its value simultaneously everywhere in the world, well, what can I say? I totally fail to see how that's a bad thing, or how it has any chance of leading to disaster.
Besides, like it or not, this stuff is definitely coming. Because the advantages and savings FAR outweigh any misguided fears and resistance. Everything new meets resistance. Remember how decimal currency was going to drive all the old people mad and lead to them losing their life savings? The media had a field day shoving cameras in little old ladies faces... but the meltdown never happened. And neither will this one.
The only major concern I have is that every vested interest on the planet is trying desperately to gain control of cryptocurrency for themselves.
http://www.coindesk.com/coindesk-guide-worlds-national-altcoins/
And now Ecuador, which banned Bitcoin and introduced its own crypto, is forcing all financial institutions to use it.
http://panampost.com/belen-marty/2015/05/31/ecuadorian-banks-must-adopt-official-electronic-currency-or-else/
See the trend here? Nobody is saying cryptos are bad. Quite the opposite. But what they're saying is any crypto ***I*** can't control is bad, so I'll make my own, then I'll force everyone I control to use it, and prevent them from using anything else. They want to centralise decentralised currency, with themselves at the center, naturally.
Which is a shortsighted recipe for disaster. We already have two 'Aussie' coins. If the government adds a third, how long do you think it would be before we have VicCoin and QldCoin, let alone SydCoin and PerthCoin and a hundred other shitcoins? NABcoin? Check. ANZcoin? Definitely... Because while you can't trust the bastards, you can absolutely predict how they're going to think.
Thing is, it doesn't have to be like that. We have a couple of solid cryptocurrencies already, and all it takes is mass adoption to push back against the dark forces. Because even if you only have one wallet, with a hundred Dogecoin or a few satoshis in it, you're waaaaaaay ahead of all the Luddites with their heads buried in the sand. And we all know that burying your head in the sand turns you into a great bike rack, right? :diablo:
No fulvio I get the point but you are don't get mine in terms of economic principles and problems you have with it being international and in demand however it breaks economic safeguards such as inflation, international competitiveness, exchange rate, fiscal policy, monetary policy and business cycle smoothing which would account for at least 80% of any economic theory in history.
I don't view my self as against innovation in fact I am all for it but there is a difference between meaningful innovation and just speculative and useless innovation (remember Enron or how about sub-prime home loans?)
Your point on a currency which is internationally accepted is misguided look at what the Euro has done to Europe with the GFC it has utterly destroyed any type of monetary policy intervention as you have countries like Germany who were doing well then you have Spain and others who are economically shot which if individual nations a devaluation of the currency through exchange rates would lead to full employment however how do you devaluate an international currency in domestic terms? It can't be done. Interest rates which moderate demand and supply is destroyed as how do you charge interest on a currency which is international but entirely speculative.
Look at shares they are backed by a companies assets, money by the central bank, precious metals by the metal itself however crypto currencies are nearly completely speculative and backed by what? numbers on a screen?
In terms of risks it would threaten every single economy that largely adopted it so I fail to see the magnitude of savings that you propose being significant enough to offset this major risk.
Frankly it would take days to type out responses for each economic impact it would have tho if you want to confine it to one or two economic principles I would be happy to explain them. e.g. monetary policy, fiscal policy, exchange rates etc
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='73998' dateline='1433561230'I have SULLACOINS for sale.
Oh dear... :dodgy:
At least do some research before attempting to troll, mate. :P
Fulvio,
What is the difference between a "bitcoin" and others that you referred to as "shitcoin"?
How does someone tell the difference?
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='74115' dateline='1433799932'Fulvio,
What is the difference between a "bitcoin" and others that you referred to as "shitcoin"?
How does someone tell the difference?
I think all of them have a nasty smell about them Mate :angel:
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='74115' dateline='1433799932'Fulvio,
What is the difference between a "bitcoin" and others that you referred to as "shitcoin"?
How does someone tell the difference?
Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency, created anonymously by 'Satoshi Nakamoto' in 2008, and released as open source in 2009.
There are, in many peoples' opinion, several flaws in Bitcoin's design, so since the source code was available, people started working on alternative ways to do things. The first was Litecoin, forked by Charles Lee at Google in 2011.
Since then, some 500 more coins have been created, mostly forked from Litecoin, though not all (there's a really cool animated chart out there somewhere which shows the timeline and genealogy of the various coins). Unfortunately, many of these coins were scams, significantly pre-mined by the creators, who then dumped them and vanished with the cash. Others were just plain dumb, either technically or in the underlying philosophy.
When Jackson Palmer from Adobe in Sydney and Billy Markus built Dogecoin in 2013, they did it as a joke, a commentary on the proliferation of what were known as 'shit' coins, because of the flawed ground they stood on. So they build the currency to have 100 billion coins mined in a year, plus 5 billion more every year in perpetuity, as their way of highlighting the silliness of the situation.
This went against everything that other currencies took as gospel. No other coin was deliberately inflationary, and no other coin at that point was designed to be so low in value. Bitcoin peaked at $1200 each, with a market cap around the $10 Billion mark, mainly on the back of first adopter status, and the drug trade. Plus, no other coin took itself so un-seriously. A cute dog meme on a coin? Seriously? And yet, it all resonated, and the rest, as they say, is history.
The way things stand now, of you look at https://coinmarketcap.com/ you will see that apart from the top 10, most of the rest have very little support.
In my opinion, there's room for maybe 4 serious long term currencies:
• Bitcoin, because its the elephant in the room.
• Dogecoin, because its the one with the strongest community, developer team, fastest transaction times and the low valuation makes it easy to play with safely.
• Dash (formerly Darkcoin), because there is a real need for a truly untraceable currency. Other coins are semi-anonymous, in that once you can link an address to a person, you can trace every transaction they ever made, with that plus any linked addresses.
• NuBits, because its pegged to the US dollar, and therefore has a static valuation which removes exchange risk.
Litecoin, which most people call the 'silver' to Bitcoin 'gold', I don't think is a serious long-term contender, on technical grounds, and also on the weakness of its community. Its a slow coin, although faster than Bitcoin's 10-minute block times, it has a weaker dev team than either Bitcoin or Dogecoin, and its really pointless in so many ways. For most people, starting with doge, then buying into BTC when the need to buy 'serious' items arises is pretty adequate.
As for most of the rest of the top 10, they're either proprietary, centralised, or derivatives. Ripple, for example, has more in common with Visa or MasterCard than it does Bitcoin. Great for banks, who are now adopting it for interbank transfers, but pretty useless as a working currency for mere mortals.
Then you have things like Counterparty and Dogeparty, which are tokens rather than currencies. They allow you to spend them to create a set of tokens which you specify the parameters of. So for example, we could create 'ACF points' with say a thousand or a million or 100 billion tokens in the set, then give them away or sell them to members. They would be fully transferrable, and redeemable for some value down the track. The standard example given would be for a fundraising event, say a function where admission, drinks, food, raffle tickets, etc would be obtainable with tokens prepurchased and/or collected and exchanged between attendees.
Doge remains the best entry level coin. Partly because of the community, which is amazingly helpful and generous. But also because it survived a number of disasters that would have killed off any other coin. A year ago, speculators pumped its value to about six times what it is now, then deliberately crashed it and walked away with about $50 million. https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dogecoin/ Despite this, and a couple more 'pump and dumps' since, people haven't abandoned the currency, which consistently ranks 2nd or 3rd in total daily transactions. Plus, the developers are working consistently, pulling the best new ideas out of Bitcoin, and adding their own innovations.
But the only real way to know how it all works is to try it. Getting a wallet, especially an online or paper wallet, is painless. Getting a few cents worth of coins is dead easy too. Faucets pay out small but consistent drips for a few clicks, services like linkslap.me pay more substantial amounts for useful work, people tip anyone who's new and appears genuine, and the currency is pretty easy to buy as well, even in small amounts. At 20 cents per thousand at the moment, a dollar goes a long way.
Because these currencies are all fundamentally the same underneath, learning how to use one pretty much sets people up for using the others. Exchanges such as CoinSpot, which is local, or Cryptsy in the US, which is the biggest, allow trading between different currencies cheaply. Since all trading is basically the same, this is also a way to learn skills useful for Forex, Stock markets, commodities, etc, without having to risk thousands.
The other big thing is that unlike services like Paypal, payments are instant, basically free (there's a 1 doge fee per 1k transaction size), semi-anonymous and absolutely irreversible, anywhere in the world. Anyone who's ever been bitten by a Paypal chargeback will appreciate that last one. ;)
And as for that nasty smell... don't worry about it, that's just some old freshwater fish that's been left in the sun too long. :diablo:
QuoteAnd as for that nasty smell... don't worry about it, that's just some old freshwater fish that's been left in the sun too long. Diablo
hehehe
Don't you worry about this old fish Mate. :ok:
I'll still have my fist full of fifties when you are wondering where the hell all your digital currency has vanished to :laugh2::dance:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='74126' dateline='1433805737'I'll still have my fist full of fifties when you are wondering where the hell all your digital currency has vanished to
Just like grandpa still had his barn full of buggy whips when everyone else was driving around in their new cars wondering where their horses went, eh? :P
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/globenewswire/10137645.htm
Fulvio,
First off, thanks for the long response to my question about different types of crypto coins. However, I think your answer illustrates one of the problems with people accepting them. "It takes too much effort". Too much effort to learn about them. People are lazy. They won't put any effort into anything unless they get something out of it and if they don't see something they are getting out of it, take up will be small. I have a bit of interest in then, but am generally skeptical, so I have not actually done anything. I think most people won't even have any interest. ...
How long do you think it will be before the "fist full of fifties" will be as useless as the buggy whip you are comparing them to?
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='74141' dateline='1433836141'"It takes too much effort"
You're right, to a point. As a group, people are indeed lazy. But I've been down this path before. I used to haver family members snigger at me for wasting time and money on computers 40 years ago. "But what can you DO with them?" they'd cry. Well, every one of them is now surrounded by computers, aren't they? Same story with mobile phones, iPads, and all manner of new technology.
And its not just tech either. When's the last time you wrote a cheque? About 15 years in my case. Remember the outcry over direct debit of wages? And the switch from cash to cheques before that?
All new things require brainspace and effort. That's a given. Look around this forum... compare the quality of the photos now to what they were years ago. People have put in a tremendous amount of effort to improve their skills, and learn to use new hardware and techniques.
How does this impact cryptos? Well, a lot of people saw the light early, and climbed aboard. They're pushing, pulling and prodding others, and the technology itself, into the future. Its not quite critical mass yet, but it will be, and when it takes off, the transition will be as dramatic as everything else has been. From cars to planes to phones to faxes, once the early adopters lay the groundwork, everybody else falls like dominoes. Even, eventually, the luddites.
I just believe its better to be on top of the wave rather than have it bear down on you. The view's so much better from up there. ;)
QuoteHow long do you think it will be before the "fist full of fifties" will be as useless as the buggy whip you are comparing them to?
I don't think cash will ever disappear. There are far too many criminals for that to happen. But I do think we're going to start seeing the costs of cash increasingly being passed on. Because there are enormous costs involved, in the production, transport, storage and use of cash. Once there is sufficient uptake of the alternatives, you will start to see fees and charges nibbling away at that fistful of fifties. And then, once it starts to cost you an extra 10% or more to use it, most people will just stop, leaving the diehards marginalised. Its all happened before.
Cryptos won't be the total replacement, at least not in the forseeable future, for one very good reason. They can't be manipulated.
People in power have as their primary objective to REMAIN in power. Whether they're politicians, bureaucrats or enforcers, they like telling us what to do, when and how to do it, and penalising us we don't. And power relies to a large extent on money. That's why most politicians are corrupt.
A currency that the powerful cannot control damages their ability to exert their will. That's why China and other totalitarian states banned Bitcoin, and that's why several states want the benefits without the loss of power, and are therefore creating their own. Again, its all happened before.
The thing is, this time, there really isn't anything that governments can do. They can't shut it down, they can't block it, they can't impound, confiscate or otherwise interfere with the network or the flow of payments. Not without switching off the entire internet anyway. All they can do is interfere at the interfaces, where crypto meets fiat. They can force banks to close accounts of people trading in cryptos, they can block credit card transactions and the like, but they can't stop you creating a wallet, because that's just math. And they can't stop you receiving payments into that wallet, or sending payments from it.
So its not going away, that's for certain. Everything else, well, that depends entirely on how many people get involved, and how quickly.
And there's something else to consider.
We're a minority. Australia, like much of the developed world, already has lots of options in place. Paywave to name one. ATMs on every street corner. Universal access to banking, forced on us by direct credit of benefits, mostly.
But out there, where the vast majority of the human race lives, these things are not even a pipe dream. Vast numbers of people are unbanked, and not just in remote regions. In cities where banking IS available, the costs are astronomical, again because of the excercise of power. They charge 40, 50, even 100 percent because they can. And they will continue to as long as possible.
Cryptos give these people a way to sidestep the corruption and the fees. Every year, for example, expatriate African workers pay over $2 Billion in fees on the money they send home to feed their families. The banks are literally stealing food from the mouths of babes. What do you think will happen when these people wake up that there's a better way?
"Ah, but they don't have computers", I hear you say. Well, yes and no, but that's why I'm working on alternative approaches. Paper wallets don't need computers. And I'm working with some developers on a way to not only sweep the total contents of a wallet, but also to spend an arbitrary amount from it, and to do it from a USB stick which can be used on public devices. Given that you can get cardboard USB sticks for a few cents, the potential is huge. And this is not the only project under development. Sending payments by SMS for example. Mobile phones are becoming ubiqitous in many undeveloped countries, because they do away with the need to build infrastructure. And we know we can send Dogecoin by SMS, we did it 18 months ago. This will happen, for sure.
So the question isn't really about when will Trout reverse his position like he did on slabs. And its not about the few hundred people in here, or the few million in Oz.
The question is, what will happen when two billion people wake up one day and say "why didn't we think of this before?". That's when you'll see a paradigm shift.
Quotewhen will Trout reverse his position like he did on slabs
If I ever loose my Love for Cold Hard Cash and I can be guaranteed that my wealth is absolutely safe and accessible Australia/World wide.
More importantly it has to be accepted as well if not better than the AUD.
Also there has to be NO crazy fluctuations in its value and remains "stable" over a long period of time.
Maybe just maybe I may nibble at the edges :ok:
At the moment NONE of these parameters are achievable with any of the digital currencies.
As far as the slabbing goes, That was a leap of faith and it took me some time to get around to the idea and how to be mildly successful doing it.
Trouble is all the profit goes into slabbing my collection coins and acquiring more for the same.
Maybe this digital currency WILL be the way of the future but I recon I will be feeding the worms long before it is the "Norm" :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='74151' dateline='1433846178'Also there has to be NO crazy fluctuations in its value and remains "stable" over a long period of time.
Best check the A$ exchange rate charts then. Its FAR from stable, even over a short period of time. Ask any traveller.
http://bravenewcoin.com/news/australian-and-estonian-banks-getting-hands-on-with-digital-currency/
Looks like our banks have a different opinion of cryptos than a lot of you guys do, eh? :P
I don't trust Banks either Fulvio,totally focused/dependent on the bottom line and how to get bonus's for Exec's.Customer & National Interest comes in a long last behind profit motives and the holy grail of the share price.
When the next Wall St. crash occurs or a major war,god forbid,i reckon the Crypto's will be worth as much as a Confederate $.
Here's an interesting infographic I just found that explains how all cryptos work. The main differences between Dogecoin and Bitcoin, for example, are our much faster block times (1 min), much cheaper fees (1 doge), and much lower mining rewards (10,000 doge). Oh, and a different algorithm (scrypt) which is more efficient.
(http://bitpixr2.bittubetv.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Bitcoin-Payment.jpg)
F
Regardless of what is written by those who promote the various digital / cyber / electronic currencies there is no "BACKING"! Once upon a time many years ago in the old days, money was backed by gold/silver, until Nixon back in 1971? withdrew that maxim because he needed money to fund the war in Viet Nam.
The cryptos have less backing than the current fiat money printed by virtually every govt on the planet. (Not sure about Iceland). Every fiat based currency throughout history has failed.
Even our own constitution states that money can only be silver or gold or similar which our govts ignore. China appears to be going back to a precious metals backed "money" with their massive purchases of gold over the past decade in their bid to promote the renminbi as the new Reserve currency of the world in a world where the USA retains that status and which is the only that keeps the US $ alive considering the USA's 18 trillion dollars of debt! Prior to WW2 the UK pound was the dominant currency of the world.
These flash in the plan crypto currencies are just that. In the end only a money backed by "substance" = precious metals will survive in the long haul.
Play and enjoy but do not put all your eggs in the same basket!
No trolling here.
Learn about the truth of money and where and how it is created and you will quickly achieve a true comprehension of how and where and why and etc of why it all a masssive fraud.
When you make a purchase with your credit card - where does the money used to cover that purchase come from?
Ask and ye shall learn!!
The USA has over 18 trillion dollars of debt (FIAT) . That is 18,000 times one billion! WOW!!
Similarly the Greeks are only Billions in debt and now threaten the demise of the EU.
Greater forces than we will ever understand are in play here and it is all about the fact that there is nothing backing the rubbish we call money/currencty/bitcoin/suillacoin/agapecoin or toullacoin.
It is only a simple manipulation that many uneducated and without knowledge have fallen for!
Me? No!
And you have faith in bitcoin?
Good luck with that one!
Where is the intrinsic value in a $100 polymer note or a $1 coin?
A 1966 50 cent piece is worth 1/3 of an ounce of silver. Could be worth a lot more than a $100 polymer note (which no longer even states that it iis legal tender) in the future!
What happens to bitcoin and FIAT currencies when the lights go out?
Please answer that question Fulvio!
LOL!!
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='74481' dateline='1434528971'What happens to bitcoin and FIAT currencies when the lights go out?
What is money anyway?
There is no practical difference between an IOU scribbled on a napkin, a banknote, a crypto wallet, a lump of gold or a piece of real estate when you think about it.
All simply have agreed values. The question is WHO exactly agrees to them? In some cases its a small subset with vested interests. In others its mass delusion, as in the case of Poseidon, Pyramid, Tulips, Timber Plantations and any number of ultimately empty promises.
And clearly the answer is not to put all your eggs in one basket. For example, the Doge price has in the last 24 hours moved up from around 68 to 80 satoshis. And I've been both buying and selling, at assorted prices with about a 3 point spread. By doing this I've increased my holdings to the tune of about fifty bucks, for nothing. And that's with 100,000 doge orders. Was I tempted to throw 15 million into the market and make a killing? Certainly not. If I had, sure, I would have made a profit, but then what? I'd be out of the market until the price dropped enough to buy back in.
Anyway, ultimately, when the lights go out, none of this means a damned thing. Noone has yet discovered a way to take it with you, so who cares? Certainly not the heirs.. the huge numbers of valuable coins which survivors cash in for face value at the bank is testament to that.
As a transactional currency, Bitcoin, Dogecoin et al have massive advantages. Not least of which is the absence of fees. If I buy something for $100, and I have a choice between paying $100 or $110 for it, Id have to be an absolute idiot to choose the higher price. Yet that's precisely what people do every day, particularly in international trade.
Makes you wonder...
Does not make me wonder at all
When the power goes out I will still have my investments with their histrorical and proven over time, intrinsic value!
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='74505' dateline='1434536614'When the power goes out I will still have my investments with their histrorical and proven over time, intrinsic value!
What **ARE** you talking about?
Either you think that a blackout will somehow kill the internet...
OR
You think ANYthing will have intrinsic value in some kind of post-apocalyptic Max Max future.
Both are wrong.
Gold and silver have been used as a store of wealth since the beginning of time and will always remain so.
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='74529' dateline='1434589541'Gold and silver have been used as a store of wealth since the beginning of time and will always remain so.
So what? That's a cultural construct. Neither has an intrinsic worth, except maybe in tiny quantities in electronics. In fact, the largest consumer of silver, photography, has all but completely vanished almost overnight.
See, you're missing the point that everything has a value because someone says it does, and others agree. That can and does change. If you told people a hundred years ago that a plastic card would be the de-facto standard way of paying for things, they would have locked you up in a rubber room.
Things change. That's just how it is, and will always be. And when they do, you can choose to change with them, or bury your head in the sand and get run over.
For example, when people started posting images to BitPixr, my initial reaction was we didn't need it, since we already have Imgur, which does a great job of hosting billions of pictures, and is the default service on Reddit. Basically, I reacted the way you guys have to cryptos.
But then I figured I'd at least give it a try. Created an account, and posted a pic. And got my first payout at 5am yesterday. Have a look at https://bitinfocharts.com/dogecoin/address/DU5dahL8K6M63PD76B9wECtAjyX4GnUSFD and scroll to the transaction list down the bottom. I got 4 payments in 24 hours, and 5 more this morning. No, 23 US cents isn't going to make me rich, but I haven't put any actual effort in either. What happens when I do, and switch over ALL my image hosting to there? Check that address in a day or two and find out.
Oh, and by all means continue to ignore the inevitable. Its your funeral. :P
What 5000 + years of history where gold and silver were the only method of storing wealth has no value?
:)
Fulvio, when the power goes out your cryptoBS will be worth zero.
Me?
I will able to trade my mainly silver (and some gold) for whatever my heart desires!
You will be there staring at your power point with your cord in your hand asking WTF??, and you and your family will be starving!
No trolling here mate!
You really should some research on the history of money and then take the steps necessary to preserve some your wealth instead of collecting the bits of metal you own that have no true intrinsic value. McDonalds will be worth little when the power goes out!
Gold and silver are the only way to preserve one's wealth in the current and future financial climate!
Re Bitcoin and others. Printout the digits and wipe your bum with the paper it is printed on. That will be the true future value.
Who controls the BC market?
Isn't it a couple of Russian twins?
The bad guys hacked Mt Gox and what happened there?
I'm gunna build me an Ark!
I'd best go for wood.
When the power goes out then gold and silver may only be worth une pincée de merde.
Valuable items might include petrol, canned foods, livestock, drinking water, solar modules, firearms and ammunition, tools, fertiliser, winter clothing and all sorts of survival items. Who knows? It could depend a lot on the whys and wherefores of any ultimate catastrophe.
Then again it may never happen either and the human race might see sense before it is too late (unlikely). I can't say we would descend into primitive barbarity because we never really seem to have risen above that anyway.
Of course some reactionaries will accumulate "wealth" in gold, silver, diamonds and such initially; until they realise you can't eat them. Their attempts to reverse their loses could be very nasty indeed.
Barter could reign supreme and a convenient medium (or media) of exchange to facilitate trade will no doubt arise
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='74546' dateline='1434607828'Of course some reactionaries will accumulate "wealth" in gold, silver, diamonds and such initially; until they realise you can't eat them.
And this is the crux of the matter, and where the doomsday scenarios fail.
For "the power to go out", a string of catastrophic events would need to occur. In which case that trunk full of gold bars will be the least of concerns.
Sulla, get a clue. If you really want to preach doom and gloom, at least check out ***Doomsday Preppers***, a Discovery series about people actually preparing for a variety of apocalyptic scenarios. See if you can get to the end of the series without thinking they're all crackpots, then look in a mirror.
Oh, and if you think being involved in one thing precludes diversification, you're even crazier than it appears. FYI, my risk is spread over a wide and varied range of alternatives, as would any sensible person's be. :P
Crypto currency is an idea whose time is nigh. Global acceptance of a major paradigm shift can take around a generation so it will be some years before it is the common currency and the existing currency is a quaint anachronism that some die-hards still adhere to.
For that to happen requires Government and Big Business acceptance and you know what that means...right? They will configure it to suit their purposes and we will end up with "crypto-fiat currency" that is different to, but not better than our existing currency. Value will be pegged to whatever the major power brokers decree.
Hopefully there will only be one, universal crypto which could be an advance on our present economic system.
Sorry, as a hardened cynic I sometimes find it hard to adopt a "glass half full" outlook.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='74550' dateline='1434614066'Sorry, as a hardened cynic I sometimes find it hard to adopt a "glass half full" outlook.
And that's perfectly fine. As I said on the phone, its participation that counts more than viewpoint.
As for sitting back and waiting, this isn't VHS v Beta. Sure, there are plenty of 'yawnworthy' coins and dead ends, but the leaders aren't going to go away anytime soon. Plus, the technology is sufficiently similar that knowing one means you also know the others.
That's why I push people towards Doge rather than BTC, even though I use both myself. You can pick up enough doge in a few minutes to be useful, and to start learning the basics. There's no need to risk millions.
For example, I had someone point me at eToro, which is a forex trading site that claims something like 4 million active users. I took the referral, filled in all the blanks, including a mandatory ASIC knowledge exam, and got to the point where I would be depositing $500 to start with. Whoa... I have nowhere near the skills nor confidence to be playing with that sort of money in a highly-leveraged environment. I'd rather swap it for bags of red $2 coins.
OTOH, I opened an account on BTC38.com today, which is the chinese exchange with the bulk of the market, moved in a whopping 10,000 doge, and for the princely sum of two bucks I can play around as much as I like, and probably make a substantial percentage gain.
Same skill set in both cases, but where I can afford to learn and make mistakes with one, I can't take the risk with the other, you see?
One day, when I've refined my skills sufficiently, I'll have another go at the Forex caper. ;)
So, yeah, what I'm saying is don't wait. Go to my page, grab the paper wallet generator, run a few off, then use my faucet referrals to get some coins into them. Play around, moving coins between wallets, seeing how it all works. What does it cost you, other than a few minutes of time in front of your computer?
Then at least when the crunch point comes, you'll know enough to be dangerous, right? :diablo:
Maybe I don't know enough to not be dangerous!
Then go and switch off the pc and see what you own Fulvio.
You always seemed to to be an intelligent man, but somehow you you have lost your way with this Internet bullshit crypto currency / money!
As for the forex...
You obviously have failed to understand how the yanks have NOT prosecuted the manipulators in that FOREX marketplace!
Open your eyes and you shall see! JP Morgan - how much were they recently fined for screwing the FOREX markeplace? And has any one been gaoled?
How much was JPM fined for their LIBOR activity and then they gave their CEO Jamie Dimon a multi million dollar pay rise!
Open your eyes and you will see the corruption and bitcoin is nothing more than an extension of that philosophical corruption!
W T F is wrong with you FulviO!!??
And with recent publicity the FOREX market has gained you want to try it again!
REALLY?? .......... knowing that it is a totally manipulated marketplace?
LOL!
LOL!
LOL!
ROTFLMAO!!
LOL!!!
google "jpm forex manipulation" and have your eyes opened!
LOL!!!
-----------------------
EDIT
Sorry but have to add this!
F M D !!!!!!!!!
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='74555' dateline='1434625667'Then go and switch off the pc and see what you own Fulvio.
See, your ignorance is showing.
I don't NEED a PC. In fact, most of my wallets aren't even IN a computer. They're just numbers, mate. That's kinda the whole POINT, which you either don't get or cheerfully ignore.
As for market manipulation, well, yeah, I agree there. In fact, that's what the whole idea was behind Bitcoin in the first place.. to get away from the clutches of the manipulators.
Do your research and stop embarrassing yourself, mate. :P
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='74558' dateline='1434626298'Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='74555' dateline='1434625667'Then go and switch off the pc and see what you own Fulvio.
I don't NEED a PC. In fact, most of my wallets aren't even IN a computer. They're just numbers, mate. That's kinda the whole POINT, which you either don't get or cheerfully ignore.
As for market manipulation, well, yeah, I agree there. In fact, that's what the whole idea was behind Bitcoin in the first place.. to get away from the clutches of the manipulators.
Do your research and stop embarrassing yourself, mate. :P
You may impress those without knowledge, but those with knowledge simply laugh at your ridiculous responses in this thread!
HA HA HA!
Your response is not worthy and does even remotely qualify for a reply from me!
Answer the issues raised or aquiesse with your silence - do not be a pretendor!
Re-read those words you have written.
An then try and explain to those here what they mean?
:)
Come on, this is going too far.
Maybe the controllers of this forum better start reviewing some of the language, although abbreviated, that has been used in this thread.
Someone is stirring very badly here.
Bruce this is sprited debate! Nothing to be concerned about!
Just one challenging argument against another!
FULVIO methinks you are way out of your depth in this conversation and methinks you agree with what I say!
LOL!!
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='74561' dateline='1434627925'Come on, this is going too far.
I couldn't agree more.
I'm
=->this<-= close to using that ignore button for the second time.
Bloody trolls.
LOL FULVIO!!!
No trolls here! for the third time!
:)
I agree that Fulvio's swearing should be managed!
Fancy using the word "bloody" in our modern society!
Remember the Maxim in law in that states "he who does not deny admits!"
So Fulvio deny or admit!
As Jo B - P would have said:
"I am just feeding the chickens..."
:)
Much fun here. Pity that some take it to seriously. Eh? Bruce!?
What!!??
Cat got your tongues gentlemen?
If Fulvio wants to spend some of his time and money investing in crypto's then "So be it" :ok:
Crypto's are not for me but it is none of my business how other people invest their time and money and I don't think it is any of your business either Sulla.
Would you two (Fulvio & Sulla) please take your argument to another forum. It's getting a bit OTT and I'm sick & tired of it all as I'm sure many of the other members are.
GIVE US A BREAK!!!!!
Quote from: 'trout' pid='74576' dateline='1434659964'If Fulvio wants to spend some of his time and money investing in crypto's then "So be it" :ok:
Crypto's are not for me but it is none of my business how other people invest their time and money and I don't think it is any of your business either Sulla.
I agree,i enjoy reading Fulvio's posts on the subject and occassionaly throw my 2c in but its going to far in this thread.
You guys can PM each other it can be like ultimate fight club rule one no one talks about ultimate fight club :P
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='74626' dateline='1434696916'You guys can PM each other it can be like ultimate fight club rule one no one talks about ultimate fight club :P
Pass. I've got better things to do, seriously.
But, I'll leave this parting shot, from an interview with the Winklevoss Twins in GQ a couple of months ago:
http://www.gq.com/blogs/the-feed/2015/04/tyler-winklevoss-silicon-valley-hbo-interview.html
Your latest project is the Bitcoin exchange. How would you define Bitcoin, for a two-year-old?
It's Internet money. It's money that was built specifically for the World Wide Web. What I mean by that is that currently when you send your money from here overseas, it's similar to making a long-distance phone call 20 years ago. It cost a lot of money, and it was a rare thing. Then people started to be able to make phone calls over the Internet. The same thing is happening with your ability to send money. Sending Bitcoin to someone—sending value—is now similar to sending an email or making a Skype phone call. They're instant, they're free, and they totally work.
Are you worried that Bitcoin is sort of a little bit too... that it's not... not concrete enough... I mean is it...
I know what you're saying—but money hasn't been concrete for a long time.
Hasn't it?
The idea of money being something physical is almost entirely a fiction. Sure, you can go to your ATM and pull out cash. And you can feel cash in your back pocket, and have some tangible comfort there—but in reality the majority of your money is a number on a screen.
Mind: blown. What else do you want people to understand about Bitcoin?
People mistake familiarity for what's real. The bottom line is that money is only as real as people believe it is. And there's nothing that says that bars of gold are more real than pieces of paper or ones and zeroes. If enough people buy into it then it's money. It's sort of like a mental exercise. You look at the whole picture of money from the beginning of time, from its invention to now, you'll see that Bitcoin is actually really not any different or less real than any other forms of money. In fact, we should have expected it and it's a pretty inevitable evolution of money.Seems they get it. Maybe that's why they're worth $450,000,000
... and Sulla...
isn't. :P
"Seems they get it. Maybe that's why they're worth $450,000,000
... and Sulla... isn't. "
And either is Fulvio!!
:)
Thread locked. I think most members are getting bored of this discussion and most related discussions. I will exercise little (or no) tolerance for any further crypto related threads that are started here.