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Quote from: 'adud2304' pid='8010' dateline='1360278131'undefined
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steve the q is undefined , that comes up quite a bit , but i dont understand what it is .. ,, kel ,,
Welcome to the forum.!:dontknow: Try reposting the Question.!
Quote from: 'keldaw' pid='8013' dateline='1360280858'steve the q is undefined , that comes up quite a bit , but i dont understand what it is .. ,, kel ,,
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The Toolbar in Forum "Reply" window dosn't work as desired
when you are using a
current release of FireFox browser.:dodgy:
It's a Browser issue of compatibility, FireFox from Release 16
to the current release 18 are not compatible with forum posting
utilising the Toolbar.
Explorer and Chrome browsers do not suffer this fate, yet.:angel:
Sorry about the first posting - my question is: "How do you determine the degree of upset in an upset coin? Is it in a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction?"
The coin under discussion has the reverse vertical initially but when when flipped fhe king's head is facing down (towards 6 o'clock). Is the degree of upset 90 or 270?
That's a 180 degree upset. Sorry I do not actually know the answer to the other part of your question.
Sorry Markn - I find it difficult to put a picture into words but it is either 90 or 270 as the top of the king's hair/head is vertical initially (12 o'clock) and at 9 o'clock on being flipped. The other question remains - Do you measure degree of unusual (word now coming) upset(edness?) in terms of clockwise or counter-clockwise?
Don't know if it's right or not but i've always gone with clockwise,which in the case of your coin if it's rotated to 9 o'clock then it would be 270 degrees.
Pretty simple each hour of the clock is 30 degrees. I personally dont like calling a rotation more than 180 degrees. I think it is either 180 exactly or out by a certain amount either clockwise or anticlockwise. For example a coin at 3 oclock i would call 90 degrees clockwise. A coin at 9 oclock i would call 90 degrees anticlockwise. Many people will disagree and others will agree. It comes down to a bit of personal preference. I think it is silly to say a coin that is out by 10 degrees anticlockwise is out by 350 degrees.
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Especially if the die had rotated 33 1/3 times, then it would probably be a L.P. rotation.! (or a turntable in the old money.!).:dodgy:
Why do two of my posts come up with undefined yet two are OK? What am I doing wrong?
Well I believe the 2001 COF upsets are measured by obverse upset, because it was obverse die that was moving. So if you take an upset 2001 dollar and hold it with the reverse upright and then spin the coin in your fingers and the queen was rotated 90 degress clockwise (ie the top of her head was pointing right) then this would be a 90 degree or 3 o'clock upset. If you spun the coin and the queen was rotated 270 degrees clockwise (ie the top of her head was pointing left) then the upset would be 270 degrees or a 9 o'clock upset.
That being said, when I search around the internet most sites seem to measure the degree of upset of the reverse in a clock wise direction. So, hold the coin with the obverse oriented correctly and spin the coin in your finger and see how the reverse is rotated.
Like so many things in coin collecting there's no hard and fast standard. Pick a method you like and stick to it but be ready to understand how others do it. enworb's idea above is fairly sensible but you need to supply additional information, whether the upset is 90 degrees clockwise or anti-clockwise.
A very interesting discussion going on in this thread.
I can say with absolutely certainty, in regards to the 2001 Cent Of Federation $1 coin upset is this.: That the Obverse die broke away from its support and rotated a little each time it struck a coin so that the Obverse is out of alignment with the Reverse. This can be demonstrated by the examination of the reeding on the edge of the coin. On examination, have a look at the alignment of the reeding in regards to the "TI" in the word "FederaTIon". The alignment does not move regardless of the amount of upset the Obverse is. I have had it confirmed also by RAM staff when I showed them my collection of upsets when the RAM threw the production floor open many years ago. To date I have found in excess 480 upsets and I found another today, upset at 247 degrees or a little after 41 minutes past the hour.
I use the clock at describing an upset. 3 o'clock upset is at 90 degrees. 5 o'clock upset is at 150 degrees. 8 o o'clock upset is at 240 degrees. I think people can picture an upset at 9 0'clock far easier that saying it is upset at 270 degrees. To work backwards means nothing to me nor would I excpect it to be too clear for most other people.
In regards to pennies or coins that do not have a reeded edge, I think it is only guess work as to which die broke and caused the upset. Posibly the dies were not set up correctly in the first place.
For adud2304:- When checking a coin for upset do the following:
1: Hold the coin between your first finger and thumb or top and bottom of the coin with the Reverse facing you as it should be.
2: Rotate the coin on its VERTICAL AXIS, do not roll the coin.
If the coin is an upset, then the OBVERSE will be out of alignment when viewed. (Edited as a result of the comment beloew). (Thanks teacher.....)
Please be advised that according to the RAM production staff, a coin is not upset if it is not out of allignment by by more than 15 degrees either side of the 12 o'clock position. That is 2.5 minutes to or 2.5 minutes past the hour.
QuoteIf the coin is an upset, then the Reverse will be out of alignment when viewed.
I think Goldy might mean Obverse here. :winkextra:
I have this vague recollection of reading somewhere that with Australian coins, the Anvil die is
always the Reverse, and conversely the Hammer die is
always the Obverse and that when Australian coins are ‘upset’, it’s always the Obverse side that is rotated and that it’s
not possible for the Anvil Die to rotate.
Can anyone please confirm this, or correct me if I’m wrong?
I’ve tried to find the article online, but can’t locate it, so I feel it must have been on ACBO.
I have also heard that the RAM also uses the reverse on top and the obverse on the bottom. I know that for predecimal coins perth used the obverse on top whilst melbourne used the reverse on top.
Thanks to all who contibuted to this thread, interesting reading over this mornings coffee.! The M for F read the thread as well and is showing a new found interest in coins (dollars in particular). Might have a convert.!!
I found this as a small note to myself from 2006, no idea who the author was or where I got it from:
Please DO NOT assume all presses at the RAM are set up with the obverse as the hammer die, it is my understanding that dies are inter-changeable these days.
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I wish to thank all who have replied to my inital query - all your replies have been informative and demonstrate the depth of knowledge that collectively is available.
I do have other questions that I hope members of this forum can respond to in like manner. The dates in these questions refer to the dates in the PENNY section of McConnelly's book on predecimal varieties. I do know that I have seen, some time ago, answers to some of these questions but, for the life of me, am unable to find the references now. I am hoping someone can help as I, preferably, do not wish to reinvent the wheel.
How do you determine whether or not a date is wide e.g. 1911, 1913 and other dates?
How do you determine whether a coin is tilted left/right e.g. 1914, 1915 etc?
Other questions may follow later
I use a usb microscope to check for die cracks etc. The software with this unit allows an amazing number of options, including drawing a 'line' between two points and recording the distance in milimetres or even down to 'microns'. These units are cheap to purchase (ebay) and simply plug into a PC to operate.!
My unit is a couple of years old now, I am sure someone will point you in the right direction. Experience will eventually allow you to pick out these varieties without any trouble.!
The best way would probably be by comparison with other coins.
Why do I get undefined coming up????? when I try to post a reply????
With regard to how an upset coin is described I have decided to:
Align the reverse vertically and when flipped to describe the degree it is upset as always less than or equal to 180 with the rotation as being either clockwise or anti-clockwise.
Thank you to all who replied to my question
if you get undefined turn up as a post just edit it and delete that post and start again