Australian-Coins Forum

Australian Coins, Banknotes and Exonumia => Australian Errors and Varieties => Topic started by: serenitystan on November 16, 2023, 04:38:48 PM

Title: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 16, 2023, 04:38:48 PM
Australian penny GV1 1941 high dot after Y. Is it a Melbourne strike with a die chip? A Perth struck K.G with a die chip? Or a Perth strike die marker like the 1941Y. I have seen a 1941 K.G with the dot high after the Y. Die marker or die chip??
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: pra666 on November 16, 2023, 09:18:17 PM
Perth Mint with die chip is the most likely explanation.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: Mister T on November 18, 2023, 08:13:00 PM
Do they all have a K.G?
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: autocoupler on November 20, 2023, 11:39:28 AM
This is one I found years ago and since had slabbed. PCGS Certificate Verification Coin Details for Cert #38125706 (https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38125706)
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 20, 2023, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: 'Thanks for the pic Auto. On the PCGS true view I can see what looks like a moat around the high dot after Y. PCGS has designated the coin as a regular 41KG-p,which makes me none the wiser..' pid='128724' dateline='1700442568'This is one I found years ago and since had slabbed. PCGS Certificate Verification Coin Details for Cert #38125706 (https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38125706)
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 20, 2023, 08:54:25 PM
Quote from: 'The ones I seen without a dot between the KG have the high dot after Y further to the right of the Y..' pid='128716' dateline='1700300580'Do they all have a K.G?
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: autocoupler on November 20, 2023, 11:44:26 PM
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='128725' dateline='1700474001'
Quote from: 'Thanks for the pic Auto. On the PCGS true view I can see what looks like a moat around the high dot after Y. PCGS has designated the coin as a regular 41KG-p,which makes me none the wiser..' pid='128724' dateline='1700442568'This is one I found years ago and since had slabbed. PCGS Certificate Verification Coin Details for Cert #38125706 (https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38125706)



Hi Stan, I did try to get PCGS to Identify the coin as a high dot after Y but they were having none of that simply because it was not a major variety (derived from a characteristic on a hubbing die or something like that).

The dot looks pretty much concentric in the true view pic, but under magnification is not uniform which points towards a die chip.

Haven't seen one without a dot between KG, that's not to say they're not out there. 

This is an unidentified high dot from the Benchmark collection. Benchmark Coin Collection (ngccoin.com) (https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/benchmark.aspx)
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 21, 2023, 09:20:18 AM
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='128727' dateline='1700486066'
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='128725' dateline='1700474001'
Quote from: 'Thanks for the pic Auto. On the PCGS true view I can see what looks like a moat around the high dot after Y. PCGS has designated the coin as a regular 41KG-p,which makes me none the wiser..' pid='128724' dateline='1700442568'This is one I found years ago and since had slabbed. PCGS Certificate Verification Coin Details for Cert #38125706 (https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38125706)



Hi Stan, I did try to get PCGS to Identify the coin as a high dot after Y but they were having none of that simply because it was not a major variety (derived from a characteristic on a hubbing die or something like that).

The dot looks pretty much concentric in the true view pic, but under magnification is not uniform which points towards a die chip.

Haven't seen one without a dot between KG, that's not to say they're not out there. 

This is an unidentified high dot from the Benchmark collection. Benchmark Coin Collection (ngccoin.com) (https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/benchmark.aspx)

Hi Auto, I'm not convinced it's a die chip due to the dots not being in the same place. The dot after Y on the Benchmark coin is lower than on your coin. Also the dot between the KG on your coin is closer to the G..This tells me there was two dies and the chance of a die chip on each die is pretty remote but not impossible.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: autocoupler on November 21, 2023, 11:31:30 AM
Yes, I agree. The high dot on the Benchmark coin does appear to be lower. I used a crude straight edge alignment across the screen. Would be interesting to compare both in the hand.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 21, 2023, 12:27:58 PM
That's the trouble. To many dealers + collectors are quick to label the coin as a high dot after Y, or a KG with die chip before comparing + researching the coin.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: autocoupler on November 21, 2023, 03:01:51 PM
I dug out two lower grade examples, both appear to have dots higher than the Benchmark coin pic.

Would be interesting if others could check and compare their 1941 high Y dot coins.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: nealeffendi on November 21, 2023, 05:27:15 PM
@serenitystan. Is it possible to have 2 dies with a similar die chip? Maybe not improbable. Look at the '34 shilling where 2 dies have what looks like an overdate along with a '34 sixpence which also looks like an overdate along with 6 '34 Threepence dies that are overdates. Far more coincidences or proof of overdates? Yet according to Briggs all pre '34 sixpence dies had been destroyed which theoretically means it was just a freak coincidence. Or was it? Any chance mint records are wrong? Any chance some technician put a little guide marker be it a little high dot on some penny dies or a little curve line on some shilling and sixpence dies?
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 21, 2023, 06:20:55 PM
How about 3 dies with a similar die chip. I just spotted a third one on EBay. Item no 323702051108..The dot/chip is higher than the other two...
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: autocoupler on November 21, 2023, 11:29:51 PM
Coin in PCGS slab, Benchmark coin and ebay coin Stan referred to. The high Y dot in coins one and three appears to be in a very similar position but different in coin two IMHO. 
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1941_high_Y_dot_slab.jpg)

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1941_high_Y_dot_Benchmark.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1941_high_Y_dot_ex_ebay.jpg)
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 22, 2023, 09:29:49 AM
Thank for the great pics Auto. The dot on the third coin looks more prominent than the top two as the dot looks uniformed with a moat around the circumference. A uniformed die chip with a moat around the circumference Hmmm??
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: echidna on November 23, 2023, 02:19:02 PM
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They all appear to be from the same die with a common die marker visible.

My guess is that there is some die deterioration going on.
The ends of the letters can move very slightly and/or become doubled hence the dot can appear to move relative to the top of the Y.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: autocoupler on November 23, 2023, 11:57:36 PM
Good pickup echi. Great pic.

Is this another example? Plenty of doubling going on as well. PCGS Certificate Verification Coin Details for Cert #46533051 (https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46533051) Currently in Roxbury's auction.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: serenitystan on November 24, 2023, 10:14:29 AM
Thank you Auto,Neal and Echi for your knowledgeable opinions regarding this coin. My humble opinion is that there is so much I don't know about Commonwealth predecimal coinage, but have learnt about the 1941 kg high dot after y.
Title: RE: Opinions.
Post by: echidna on November 24, 2023, 10:46:08 AM
The one in the Roxbury auction appears to be the standard version.
The "High Dot Y"s all have a "stepped" rim as well, and that one looks normal.