Spotted this in the PCGS population report. Can't see any sign of the cud on right side of O in OF, and appears to be no moat around either dot.
I think someone may be disappointed.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1919_penny_double_dot_picture.jpg)
Yes,'false double dot',they bob up every so often,i can't see the 'dash' over the 'A' either.
Both lower and upper dots are too far to the right as well.
IIRC 'Robiegal' on here had one and apparently purchased it from a well known Melb. Dealer which is a shame.
Remind me what the P in PCGS stands for???
That rookie mistake might cost someone buying it without closer examination a few thousand dollars. What happens when they or their heirs find out the truth? Whomever originally slabbed it might be dead/retired or otherwise not in a position to correct the mistake. Will PCGS correct the mistake and if compensation is sought then on what value? Bluesheet/Redsheet/Renniks/McDonalds or PCGS own guess? Can't be many in that grade changing hands so would be difficult to gauge the market.
Check the surfaces and there are all sorts of dots everywhere.
A high res image of the top dot would be interesting.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='128008' dateline='1680519333'Check the surfaces and there are all sorts of dots everywhere.
A high res image of the top dot would be interesting.
Yes Echi,these Coins were ID as Dot under way back in the 1960's(70's?),the top 'dot' is a die chip of some kind.
Always apprehensive 2nd guessing PCGS with the exotic gear they have to analyse Coins but there are several egs of this variety kicking around,especially in the early days of Ebay before the genuine Double Dots took over and the punters were educated.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='128008' dateline='1680519333'A high res image of the top dot would be interesting.
The PCGS number is 47091054. The true view image is better.
Hi Guys, I checked over my notes on the 1919 and the reference papers, ( Briggs, Saxton, Holland ect.) to clue myself back in to the variety.
I had gone totally blank!
I also sharpened up the reverse image and equalised the light values with photoshop, "turned on the lights" as it were so i could see it better.
Noted:
The reverse die has developing cracks across the date from left peg through the date to right peg and further to the "A".
Also a crack starting between the T and H at the top.
The scrolls are well pressed.
The dots positions on this die are not where they are on the one die that I, and most researchers, think, was the only used.
I looked through my gallery of DBLDOT coins to compare, on this coin his top dot is way to the right, wrong shape. (Not an oval shape and quite tight to the scroll.)
The bottom dot is sort of about the right shape but a bit lower.
The cracks about the top A are not evident.
All of that makes me agree with you all , its a DUBS coin with a "fortunate dot" ( die chip or bronze mound) at the top that just happens to be in the right area.
Because it does not comply with the accepted "Standard" it's either a fortunate dot or a lone unicorn survivor from another die pair and we need to do a re-write!
Find another identical one!
I tried looking through my gallery of DUBS reverses hoping to find a match with the same cracks through the date area but no luck.
That does not surprise me as I only have hundreds of images as against millions of coins, but you never know unless you look.
I would be wary, it is a double dotted coin but not the same as the herd, they ALL show identical dot shapes and positions.
The only coins I have, where the dots are different, like the coin in question, were fakery or fortunate.
My written reference was article, Lever, "The 1919 penny, dates dots and duds" CAB Sep 2013 vol16 issue 8.
Cheers, Fred.
https://benchmarkcoincatalogue.com/coin/457?pg=102 (https://benchmarkcoincatalogue.com/coin/457?pg=102)
This is the Benchmark Coin,different Rev. to the OP Coin.
Die is on its last legs by the look of things,Top Dot is debateable,could be anything but its not round to my eyes..
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/2614553-290r19192.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/1919_top_dot.jpg)
Thanks for the Benchmark pic echidna and Basil. When comparing the reverses of the PCGS coin and the Benchmark coin I believe they are the same. To me, the PCGS coin is an earlier die state with the die cracks being in the same position but not as pronounced.
In post #7 i said "find an identical one".
Well there we go. You have.
We have 2 coins from the same die.
The dots on those two are the same to each other, but very different to the accepted DD single die.
Agree with Auto, same die just advanced cracking in the benchmark example.
The crack at the top TH also extends from the H to the O and you can see stress marks further around.
UhOh I better dig out my box with the 1919's and have a second look at my "suspect dud" DD examples!
Basil, under a scope at high magnification the top dot on my DD examples is quite oval as if the punch skidded or chattered when marking the die.
The lower dot is quite round.
I dont have a benchmark type example to scope, but from the picture both dots are different in shape, the bottom dot is oval shaped and the top dot a smaller punch and struck well in creating a crater, that produces the "moat" when reversed onto the struck coin.
I wonder if there more identical around?
Looks like we have a second DD die identified.
Fred.
Yes Fred,on the accepted DD top dot,as the Die wore the edges of the dot depression on the Die seemed to break/wear away increasing the 'dot' in size and causing it to go from round to nearly oblong.
This variety was ID 50 years ago as a 'Dot Under Die Chip' , that view may be wrong but its the one i grew up with.
Robbiegal posted a Pic. on here of hers which was similar to the 2 above,i can't find it thru the search function but someone may have the time to locate it.
IIRC she purchased from Klaus Ford(?) in Melb. as a 1919 DD.
Edit..i think this is RG 'double dot',listed on my old computer as such.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/Robbiegal_Rev_top_dot.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/Robbiegal_Rev_.jpg)
OK, just say for the time being there are two double dot reverses of the 1919 penny.
Considering the relatively fully formed top scroll on the Benchmark coin, would it be fair to say that the die failed fairly quickly, and was replaced by the D.D. die we have all come to know as the genuine double dot?
Would this then make the Benchmark reverse die the scarcer of the two?
There was only ONE 1919 .//. die. Any others are false.
The 1919 .//. is distinct as it has the same obverse die as a 1919 FBL. So it was possibly (probably?) the first of the cloned reverses which might account for it having 2 dots.
Two 1919 double dots from the same die. The Benchmark coin graded by NGC and the other one by PCGS. Big call by NGC to name it a double dot and maybe PCGS just followed..Defective die or genuine???.
There could also be another one from the same die. Sold by Noble auctions..Sale no 84 lot no 1549. Either that or it could be the Benchmark coin..
Neal has a point.
We need to consider what obverses are paired with the DD reverses.
If I can figure out how to paste images on this site, i'll post a picture of a third DD reverse.
Well, I called it a fake, was because it doesn't look like the accepted reverse die!
When the Mint was baking up a batch of cloned dies its quite possible, they did 6 at a time in the oven as was the custom, and marked them with DD.
The recipe may have been poor and only one or two survived final heat treat and polish.
They may have been utter disasters and fractured on first use = "nil thousand" and try again?
Who knows?
I'll have a wrestle with this photo paste thing.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='128019' dateline='1680665065'There was only ONE 1919 .//. die. Any others are false.
The 1919 .//. is distinct as it has the same obverse die as a 1919 FBL. So it was possibly (probably?) the first of the cloned reverses which might account for it having 2 dots.
PCGS has removed the coin from their population report.
Well here we go I think I have successfully imported a file into my gallery.
The coin I mentioned in post #17 is........................
First it was too big in size to fit file box so cut it down to 500KB.
Filename: https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/234583931765_edit_resize_1500_1290.JPG
Oh, not quite right, the image did not migrate. Bugger!
Some beginners mistake somewhere.
I'll try again.
Oh I see that works as a link so at least you can see the coin by clicking, well that a step forward.
At least you can view the coin.
You can see straight away why i called it a fake, the top "dot" looks like it has been hammered into the COIN with a hex nail punch!
Will keep trying to migrate pix.
ok, the IMG and /IMG bookends are missing......
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/234583931765_edit_resize_1500_1290.JPG)
ok there they are i copy/pasted from gallery.
Ahh, it worked so being 78YO and autistic is not going to stop me, you can all applaud now............(cheeering etc etc)
So, check out the die clash as the biggest die markers of all time, I wonder if there is another one like this, or, a DUBs (with no top dot) with the same die clash marks.
Have to trawl through my file photos of DUBS and see if i get lucky.
What do you think of this coin FAKE???
Fred.
And just to prove absent mindless, I just remembered I did a lot of research on the DD in 2020!
After being asked to give an opinion on a couple of suspect 1919 DD auction coins (both were fakes) I assembled my research into a paper.
That was printed in the September 2020 issue of CAB page 18.
In this I gathered up all the known factors associated with DD's, assembled these in print and then set about photographing those die markers from coins in my collection.
There is a couple of tables and 28 photos in the paper.
I then put those coins into an album of their own, so I could find them again (if i remember!).
The tables listed what features a genuine DD should, and should not, have.
I'll copy/paste the tables here.
Table 1.
Item. DD Reverse, Should have. (Image numbers in brackets.)
1 Top dot, oval shape tilted right, inset and placed slightly to right of center.(3)
2 Bottom dot, round shape, slightly to left of center. (4)
3 "A" flaw, rectangular section above A, sometimes hard to see.(5)
4 "O" flaw, small round dot chip on right of O. Sometimes 2 dots are seen.(6)
5 "O" fill. Developing fill on top of O. Goes from non-existent to extreme.(7)
6 "A" cracks. Developing radial or circumferential surface stress cracking.(8)
7 Rim Letters, slight CBL.(9)
8 Date numerals have flat feet on 1's, NOT curved. (10)
9 NO die clash marks.
10 Upset: all coins have the dot under the King in line with the left side "9" in the date.
Table 2.
Item DD Coin should not have.
11 Any reverse or obverse, die clash marks.(11, 12, 13)
12 An obverse die crack above REX. (14)
13 Curved base 1's in the date.
14 A Reverse die crack "T" of AUSTRALIA.(15)
You can see there are 14 points of recognition
The paper is very detailed, I had to take great care in my findings as some money and repute were involved.
Best to read the paper and enjoy. Any one querying or disputing the 14 recognition points, the photos will clarify.
That does not mean that it is impossible, that a second DD die got as far as the presses and some successful strikes could have made it to the bag.
But so far, by the reasoning shown in the paper, from close inspection, it is most likely that any "non-standard" DD's are constructs in some way and fakes.
If anyone interested does not have a copy of the mag, just send an email to my published email address and I'm happy to email back a PDF of the original paper.
Cheers, Fred.
To round it off I looked at ebay, 11 1919 DD are listed.
Six look ok with dots in position and the flaw on the O.
Two are high top dot duds.
Three are blurry pix and indeterminate.
Fred.
Thanks Fred,here's an eg of the oblong top dot,really got out of shape as the Die wore,i have a better eg somewhere,will throw it up when i find it.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/IMG_20230407_0001_resize.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/Top_Dot_4_2023_2.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/IMG_20230407_0001.jpg)
Hi Basil also keep an eye on the "O" of OF.
There is a small flaw on the right hand side and the top of the O gets filled as the die progresses.
I have a late state coin where the O is nearly filled at the top that is the loop is missing on the coin.
See my 2020 CAB article.
Fred.
Looks like another has surfaced. Hmmmm....no, I think it's the Benchmark coin echidna posted earlier, this time in a PCGS slab graded top of the pops AU58. Cert 47353760
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1919_dd_imposter_3.jpg)
Here we go again,gee, i thought the 1919DD story was sorted 50 years ago,only 1 Die,Test run from the Sydney Mint.
Interesting to see the PCGS reasoning behind ID this coin as a genuine DD.
Yes Basil, IMHO the same dot below die chip coin as in post #1, which PCGS eventually cancelled. Be interesting to see what they do with this one.
Doubt it that Sydney minted the 1919 .//.
The rim is nothing like the 1920 /./
The 1919 .//. shares an obverse die with a 1919 no dot so was possibly the first of the strikes from cloned dies.
Hi Neal,Sydney Mint was the general consensus in the 1960's when they were the 'flavour of the Month' for a year or so.
Hard to see Melb minting them,why add a dot?,but in reality who knows for certain.
Interesing aside,more than 1 Sydney Dealer,who were in their teens in 1919,never saw one until the 1960's for whatever reason.
Same with a Stamp/Coin Dealer we had for a period a week at School,started his Business in the mid 1930's when he lost his job in the depression hit Wool industry,i showed him the one i found on my paper Run,first he had seen.
There must be a story to where the 1919 DD was hiding,the 1940/50's feeding frenzy by Dealers looking for the 1930 should have turned them up in reasonable numbers but it wasn't until the 1960's that they were 'discovered'.
Yes Basil. They were not shown back in 1920 at a society meeting where all the other dot and no dot reverses were shown. But then again they didn't mention the English and Indian obverses either for many decades.
Even the 1921/22 Threepence was known about and published in the early 1920s, but then not mentioned again until the 1960s. So possibly the double dot was spotted but never published and then when the societies went into decline during the Great Depression the knowledge was effectively lost. The rebirth of societies after ww2 was a new generation that had no knowledge of what the old timers knew.
So who first spotted and who first published back in the 1950s or 60s? Dean had them in 64 but didn't mention anything about them as a recent discovery so I'm presuming that they were rediscovered at least a few years prior. Do you recall how you were first told about them?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='128513' dateline='1694583189' Do you recall how you were first told about them?
Hi Neal,as i've posted before i found one on my paper run in 1962 or 63.My Mother gave me a 10 shilling note as a float to keep all coins with a Kings Head,i collected them off the other paper boys as well but even back then 99% of coins were QE11.
I didn't know what it was until i looked at it with a magnifying glass at home,i showed it to local dealers(only 2 in those days) who didn't know what it was,i took it into Sydney and the 2 or 3 Dealers in walking distance of Central station didn't know either.That got my interest and it took pride of place in my collection.
My first recollection after that was an add in Coin World magazine for a Downies Auction in 1964/65,1919 'dot over top scroll' penny,i'll try and find the scan and throw it in this post.
The Menzies/Holt Govt. in 1958(59?)announced the setting up of a committee to advise on the conversion to Decimal Currency,wasn't widely known by the general poulation but Dealers(Heyde & Friends springs to mind)siezed on it and started sorting Coins by the the tens of thousands,this added to the search for the 1930 which had been going on since 1944/45.Anyway point being it may have been the late 1950's that it was ID as a genuine variety.
This was all Sydney centric,i don't know what was going on in Melbourne.
I'll throw these up whilst i have them out,they are in another Forum on here as well.
Looks like Oct. 1961 Coin Chart is the earliest mention i could find with the 1919 DD in mainstream by 1964/65.
*********************************
1919 DD.Benchmark Catalogue.
"In July 1920, the Melbourne Mint sent three pairs of 1919-dated working dies to the Sydney Mint so it could prepare for the ceremonial striking of its first penny in October of that year. These were experimental dies that were lightly used to test the presses for the 1920 Penny production and the reverses were marked with an additional dot above the top scroll to distinguish their production from the Melbourne minted 1919 //. Penny."
"The obverse dies were of the English type, the only ones held by Melbourne at the time. The 1919 .//. Penny that resulted is a scarce coin with perhaps a mintage of around 25,000 and marks the first 'unofficial' Sydney-struck penny. Records show that the 1919 .//. reverse dies were destroyed in 1924."
http://www.benchmarkcoincatalogue.com/#85
*********************************
Not sure who wrote this but its from a Forum.
"I might be able to help.
The earliest reference to the 1919.//. that I can find is in John Deans Australian Coin Varieties Catalogue (1st Ed.). On page 38 at P19G the description is: Melbourne. Dot under bottom scroll, dot above top scroll. English die obverse, curved-base letters reverse. (Dots occur in various positions.) This coin is regarded by many collectors to be a false variety. The top dot is almost always surrounded by depression, as if a punch-die has been used. The 1920 double-dot variety bears no resemblance, nor is there any other mint pellet in the Australian series that bears resemblance. It is, despite these doubts, a very rare coin and necessary to a complete collection.
The prices were 140/- for F, 200/- for VF, 15 quid for EF and 25 quid for UNC.
Kersting (1965) includes the 1919.//. in his list at 4, 6 and 10 quid for F, VF and Uncirc respectively. I'm fairly certain that Kersting was published some months after Dean.
J Hunt Deacon (1961 and earlier) didn't mention the double dot for 1919 so it is safe to assume that the variety was unknown (or dismissed as a false variety?) to collectors until after early 1960s.
I have looked in catalogues such as Spinks (I looked at every issue from 1919 to the late '20s) and old coin society journals (NSW and SA) to find any reference to the variety and came up with nothing to indicate that it was even suggested as a possible variety. J Hunt Deacon was the doyen of Australian coins and a member of all the societies for decades (so I presume that any unidentified varieties would soon come to his attention)."
**********************************
After a lot of stuffing around i got a copy of the Coin Guide,2nd edition,from the National Library.I had to tick a box saying it was for personal use so i better not download the whole Booklet here just yet.
Interesting that the author only lists one grade for the 1919 DD and in a foot note at the end of the Penny section says he has never seen an eg.This is proably correct as when i found mine in 62/63 it was a rare Coin,2nd only to a 1930 Penny and valued several times that of the 1925.The 1931 Dropped Indian was not included in most Books & guides at the time.
The folowing are a few notes from a family friend that was involved in Stamps/Coins at the time and from what i've read and been told.They started hitting the Sydney market in some sort of numbers from the early 1960's and by 1966 they were a reconized variety with the price dropping as more were found,by the end of the Decade the 1925 had caught and passed it value as pre-Decimal feeding frenzy started.There would be a story as to why they were ignored for so long and the numbers turning up in the Sydney market in the early 1960's point to a large collection or hoard being dispersed.This was not unusual at the time as the Menzies/Holt credit squeeze caused major dramas for Families and small Business's and nearly caused GM to walk out of Australia.Dealers had a field day as Stamp & Coin collections were cashed in,one Author nicknamed the period "Penny Drawfulls" as households spent loose change to survive as the Reseve Banks decision to stop Banks lending trickled down to the average Family.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0004~0.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0005.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0006.jpg)
Its also included in Derek Fosters 2nd edition ,no date but it was printed in 1964 or 65,they were a mainstream Coin Australia wide by then.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0001~12.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0003~0.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0002~9.jpg)
***************************************************************************
Excellent info Basil, thanks for posting. Interesting, the book value of a 1919 double dot graded VF in 1961 was 20 quid, roughly equates to $1000 today I'm guessing. By 1965 the value had halved to 10 quid.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='128516' dateline='1694696140'Excellent info Basil, thanks for posting. Interesting, the book value of a 1919 double dot graded VF in 1961 was 20 quid, roughly equates to $1000 today I'm guessing. By 1965 the value had halved to 10 quid.
Hi Auto,yes valuable Coin in the early 1960's,only second to the 1930 up until 1965/66 when they were being found in numbers.
The claim from researchers that the Sydney Mint had 3 1919 DD Dies supplied from Melb. was around in the 1960's but i also read that only 1 was used.
I had some good offers for my paper run coin but my Mother wouldn't let me sell it.
Dealer near central Railway took a photo of it when i told him i can't sell it,first one he had seen but did know of its existence.
He had one of those vertical cameras that slid up and down on rails,high tech for 1962/63.
The false double dot has been removed by PCGS.
The important thing to consider is whether a dot appears due to a deliberate change to a die or whether it is die to die damage in the form of a small die chip or rust spot. If we look at all the different 1919 dot below pennies it is clear that they have two features. First they have the curved base lettering known to be from the "cloned" 1919 dated dies [the dot is believed to be an indicator of this] and the dots, while not appearing in the same position and not identical in size, are all extremely large, much large than most of the dots seen on the 1920 pennies.
The upper dot on the true 1919 double dot appears to be repunched, i.e. two dots overlapping and in slightly different positions.
The apparent dot above the top scroll on the false double dot is tiny and nothing like the dots on 1919 pennies. On closeup pictures looks like a die chip and has been referred to as that or as a rust spot in the past, with that die cracking explicitly mentioned (such as Mike Locke's penny variety page or Paul Holland's article in JNAA #28, 2017).
:welcome:
Hi Pra...your comments are fairly close to the opinions/views i grew up with as regards the 1919 DD.
The 'false' DD was ID as a Die Chip back in the late 1960's when they first appeared,AFAIK it was only a few Dealers trying to make a fast buck that claimed they were 1919 DD.They(genuine coin) were an expensive Penny back then.
I find these variations interesting, like the VAMs for Morgan dollars but overall they seem to be for niche collectors. I have little to no interest in Penny collecting. I do like Morgan dollars but wouldn't be prepared to pay much for a variation, certainly not hundreds of dollars. At least Morgan dollars are 80% silver as opposed to less than a cent's worth of bronze. I know which I'd prefer to have.
It just personal choice Gweidon,everyone has their own likes and dislikes as regards hobbies.
I collected Pennies and halves as a School boy in the early 1960's as that's all i could afford,it continued into my adult life and expanded into all Aust. Pre-Dec. Coins.
I purchased RAM Silver in the 1980/90's when funds allowed but major culture shock when Ebay started in Oz.,they were selling for less than i paid for them so that ended my Silver buying which continues,with some exceptions,to today.
Anyway enough waffling,back to the 1919 DD Penny,iconic Aust. coin.
I doubt that there was a horde of 1919 .//. that was released in the early 1960s that made them not so rare. For one thing it is darn hard to find one in VG grade, most are below VG and once you get to F grade they are almost non existent. Now a horde would need either mint rolls (Uncirculated) stuck away when issued (not possible as they are worn) or some crazy person going through millions of pennies to pull them out and then perhaps they held them until they passed and they were banked by their relatives (highly unlikely).
Or just like the /./ English 1920 nobody was looking for them and now in the past 20 years a few dozen have been found. It is now the situation that in grades above VF there are probably more /./ English 1920 pennies than 1919 .//. PCGS has graded 11 of the 1920 /./ English in VF35 to 58 but only 10 1919 .//. In VF35 to AU55.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='128534' dateline='1694961610'I doubt that there was a horde of 1919 .//. that was released in the early 1960s that made them not so rare
Hi Neale,something happened in the early 1960's to cause these pennies to be ID..Remember the search for the 1930(and the 1925 but thats another story) was going on since 1944/45,hard to believe dealers/societies/numismatists etc would not have ID it back then.
Agreed most 1919 DD are heavily circulated and dispersing of a horde is a long strectch but it coincides with the announcement of the date for the conversion to Decimal currency.At the same time the Menzies/Holt credit squeeze was going on so it may be thousands of people cashing in their coins at that time.
Remember the Decimal currency committee was set up in 1958(59?),the smarties were sorting coins daily before the public became aware when the date for conversion was announced in 1961(62?) and made front page news.
Coin variety i've been interested in since i was 11 or 12 years old so happy to read any opinions/views on its history.
Cheers all.
QuoteThe claim from researchers that the Sydney Mint had 3 1919 DD Dies supplied from Melb. was around in the 1960's but i also read that only 1 was used.
Thanks Basil, that is interesting. I now see where this comes from. The claim is not supported by the evidence. John Sharples' reasoning is as follows: Three penny die pairs with reverse dated 1919 were sent to Sydney. These were all "cloned dies" so had the dot below scroll, but not necessarily the double dot. These would have the English obverse as the Indian obverses had not yet arrived. The first pennies minted in Sydney were dated 1920 with dot above bottom scroll and Indian obverse. Now if the three English obverse dies and the 1919 dated dies were used at any stage, they would have been put in the presses whenever a die failed, i.e. at random. This means we would see 1919 (dot below or double dot) paired with Indian obverse (as there were many more Indian obverse dies at Sydney than the three English dies), which we do not. Also we should see a substantial quantity of 1920 dot above with English obverse. While those exist, they are rare, and unlikely to have originated in Sydney.
Couple of quick points. The Sharples research was abysmal. I counted over 30 errors in just one research paper. As for the 1920 /./ English it was almost certainly a Perth striking. Its rim is nothing like the wushu washy flat rim that the standard /./ Indian that Sydney was capable of. Plus most of the finds have been in WA including the Raynes discovery 20 years ago. So struck in Perth, released locally and remained mostly there without many crossing the Nullabor to the Eastern states.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='128554' dateline='1695287223'Couple of quick points. The Sharples research was abysmal. I counted over 30 errors in just one research paper.
Yes Neal,but the rearchers were working off poor records often decades later,the Sydney Mint was renowned for having sloppy records and illegal activity.Melb. was probably better but their mintage figures were often doubted by 1960 researchers.
As regards the 1919 DD there was an article written in the late 1960's,i was still at School so around 1967/68,where the Author stated the Coin was most likely minted in Sydney with only 1 Die used.
My memory is hazy but i'm sure it wasn't in a book,probably a Numismatic Newsletter or Magazine,but even if i can find it again it doesn't mean the author is correct with his assumptions.
I agree the DOLS English is most likely Perth as there is a record(in another Thread on here) of the Dies they received from Melb.Not a great leap to assume someone added a Dot for the trial run.
Quote from: 'pra666' pid='128553' dateline='1695260291'QuoteThe claim from researchers that the Sydney Mint had 3 1919 DD Dies supplied from Melb. was around in the 1960's but i also read that only 1 was used.
Thanks Basil, that is interesting. I now see where this comes from. The claim is not supported by the evidence. John Sharples' reasoning is as follows: Three penny die pairs with reverse dated 1919 were sent to Sydney. These were all "cloned dies" so had the dot below scroll, but not necessarily the double dot. These would have the English obverse as the Indian obverses had not yet arrived. The first pennies minted in Sydney were dated 1920 with dot above bottom scroll and Indian obverse. Now if the three English obverse dies and the 1919 dated dies were used at any stage, they would have been put in the presses whenever a die failed, i.e. at random. This means we would see 1919 (dot below or double dot) paired with Indian obverse (as there were many more Indian obverse dies at Sydney than the three English dies), which we do not. Also we should see a substantial quantity of 1920 dot above with English obverse. While those exist, they are rare, and unlikely to have originated in Sydney.
Hi pra...thanks for Info. but i read where the lower dot on the 1919 DD is a large misaligned one off and doesn't relate to other 'dot under' Melb reverses of the time.That applies to the top dot as well,the dots have no correlation to 1919 Reverse Dies or the later 1920 Reverse Dots.Seems to be some sort of a punch on 1919 Melb.'no dot' Dies.
Obviously i'm no expert on all this but have followed the various views/therories/opinions on this Coin over the years.
As an aside back in the 1960's,sorry to keep going there but its when i had a passion for coins during the leadup to Decimal currency,there was an attempt by researchers to find exactly when the ship from India docked in Melb,even searching for the Bill of Lading.
I can't remember where it all lead other than 2 guys arguing about it at our Coin Club meeting but IIRC Melb. did not receive,according to their records,the Dies until early 1920.
Edit..found the Sharples PDF,page 9-10 on the Oz Coins 1919-1924
https://numismatics.org.au/naa-authors/john-sharples/
While i have the 1919 DD folder out i'll throw these Pics. from John Gartner's 1964 Coin catalogue book up for future reference.
This book was the Bible,probably because of John's Philatelic community standing, for many Coin dealers,at least in Sydney,as we headed to Decimal currency and the surge of interest in Oz pre-dec coins.
This was the peak of the 1919 DD interest/popularity,1962/63/64/65, 2nd only to the 1930 Penny in value but started to slide when more egs. were found.
John listed it as Melb. Mint,it wasn't until the late 1960's,AFAIK, that the Sydney Mint theory evolved.
As an aside John was one of the few from that period that cast major doubts on the Melb. mintage figures,the 1925 Penny was one coin in his sights,scarce but not rare,plenty around compared to the 32 Florin or 33 Shilling.
Apparently the Melb. Mint didn't have counters on their machines,i still can't believe that claim,and relied on the weight of minted coins to estimate mintage to the nearest 1000.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/518/IMG_20231011_0005.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/518/1919dd.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/518/1930_46.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/518/IMG_20231011_0001.jpg)
Interesting that the scarce 1942 and 1943 varieties were so highly priced. I guess they were new discoveries too.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='128624' dateline='1697404683'Interesting that the scarce 1942 and 1943 varieties were so highly priced. I guess they were new discoveries too.
Well spotted Mr.T,i'm not sure(forgotten) of the demand for those varieties in 1964 but Gartners book was the reference for many dealers in that period,64-66,before other publications took over.
The majority of dealers in 1964 were 80%+ stamps,as was Gartner himself,so a learning curve for them as well as we headed to Decimal currency.
Yeah makes sense. I don't have many of the older books but I guess they were comparatively new discoveries.
The ACR November issue has an article by Mark Duff on the 1919 DD. Lots of assumptions in that article including that there are 2 different dies for the DD and that they are Sydney struck. Now he claims that the ratio of the 2 dies is 90:10 but if that ratio was true then why have I never seen any other DD excepting the false DD of which I have a number.
And next month he will have an article on 1920. I expect my blood will boil over the assumptions in that article
Hi Neal for interesting reading and coin research have a read of the latest issue of the Independant Coin News.
See page 25 "The importance of dots". The author covers a lot of ground including the 1919 and 1920 pennies.
Effendi and Lever are included in the references for the article.
The whole magazine has very interesting reading for collectors interested in coin research.
Fred.
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