I'll throw this up whilst its quiet,does anyone know anything about these Coins?,i notice Echi had one for sale a while back.
They were a legitimate rare variety in the 1960's but seem to have been discounted since by the post 1980's new breed of researchers.I've never seen 2 the same but some seemed to have something sitting under the final 4.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/347.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/346.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/345.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/343.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/342.jpg)
There was an article in CAB a couple of years back that discounted this variety on the basis that the bit that looks like the top left of a 3 is in the wrong position for the '33 shilling. The article was well written (Peter Andrews IIRC) and proves that the hub/dies used for the '33 shilling was not the cause of the fault.
However... that assumes that the '33 shilling was the source of this "overdate". now we know that Melbourne made 2 different hubs for the '32 halfpenny and the '31 penny and the '34 threepence so why not 2 '33 hubs where the unused one was the source? Or can we discount the possibility that they had a '32 shilling die made but never used?
Anybody got an Unc example to examine for die markers? Better yet a couple of high grades to see if this variety is found on 2 or more dies which would strengthen the evidence that it is a genuine overdate.
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/KtOXZbZ.gif)" />
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/azGokwz.gif)" />
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/MoCL2CQ.gif)" />
First one is the best overdate I've seen.
Overdate is strong.
They are not too hard to find actually.
Problem is finding one with a strong overdate and getting a good pic.
(https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/36314673/157960629.jpg)
Link to the full res version:
https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/36314673/157960629.jpg
I don't pay much attention to the overdates but I remember the article that Neal mentioned and it was well written.
The 3rd image and the PCGS graded coin are both from the same die. there is a die polish line arcing above the date on both of them and they both have a small dot on the left leg of the 2nd A in austrAlia in the ribbon. They also only show "something" on the left side of the 4 whereas the first 2 coins have "something" that is more pronounced and on either side of the 4. That is the sort of "something" that implies several partially hubbed dies (1932? 1933?) were finished with the '34 hub.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='124763' dateline='1620875457'However... that assumes that the '33 shilling was the source of this "overdate". now we know that Melbourne made 2 different hubs for the '32 halfpenny and the '31 penny and the '34 threepence so why not 2 '33 hubs where the unused one was the source? Or can we discount the possibility that they had a '32 shilling die made but never used?
Who knows Neal,one thing for sure the Melb. Mint didn't use the idle time of the depression era 1930's to keep accurate records and the one fact out of all this was they were experimenting with Hubs/Dies at that time.
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/Nmk7ocH.gif)" />
Another example. (pic Sterling & Currency)
From memory that CAB article dismissed the overdate bit as a "die scratch".
The sixpence version also exists and is very similar to the shilling.
The Peter Andrews article was Nov 2012 pages 14-15 with only 2 coins examined.
And now echidna mentions that there is a sixpence version, dang now I'll have to see if I have one in my collection.
Echidna, do you have any images of the '34 sixpence overdate? My copy of Briggs Sixpences (2nd edition) pages 139-141 covers the '34 sixpence and he states that there were no overdate sixpences for any year. Dr Briggs also states he examined 1000 '34 sixpences and found 12% had a wide date. So presumably he would have noticed an overdate when checking the dates.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='124773' dateline='1621008304'Echidna, do you have any images of the '34 sixpence overdate? My copy of Briggs Sixpences (2nd edition) pages 139-141 covers the '34 sixpence and he states that there were no overdate sixpences for any year. Dr Briggs also states he examined 1000 '34 sixpences and found 12% had a wide date. So presumably he would have noticed an overdate when checking the dates.
Not necessarily,he makes his observations appear as facts when they are just that, his educated opinion based on Mint Records and examination of Coins.Very persuasive but may or may not be 100% correct.
He states all 1933 3d Dies were destroyed,what if they weren't and the Mint Records were incorrect/fabricated for whatever reason.What if one of the Engineers/employees kept them in a draw to experiment with.
Researchers have to keep an open mind,anything is possible as far as activities go at the Melb. Mint during the Depression era.
As regards my OP everyone in our little group up here reckons that's the final 3 of the 1933 Shilling sitting under the 4,under a loupe it stands out but i can't get a good USB shot of it.The first 3 is different to a normal 33 Shilling however.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/33_34_panny.jpg)(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/briggs_3d_1934_156009.jpg)
Quote from: 'Basilstate' pid='124774' dateline='1621038293'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='124773' dateline='1621008304'Echidna, do you have any images of the '34 sixpence overdate? My copy of Briggs Sixpences (2nd edition) pages 139-141 covers the '34 sixpence and he states that there were no overdate sixpences for any year. Dr Briggs also states he examined 1000 '34 sixpences and found 12% had a wide date. So presumably he would have noticed an overdate when checking the dates.
Yes, these are much much harder to find than the shilling.
Throw this up whilst its quiet,possible overdate Florin,scanner is playing up,if anyone wants full Obv/Rev Pics. let me know.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/4.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/5~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/7~0.jpg)
Looks similar to the shilling version.
Possible 1934 6d overdate.
Appears to be remnants of a 3 hiding under the 4.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Ashampoo_Snap_2021_08_16_11h05m58s_001_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/4~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3~1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/2~1.jpg)
What's under the left of the crossbar of the 4.
Looks interesting but the gunk/discolouration makes it difficult to see whats going on.
Yes,not my coin but i gave it a good 'bath' anyway but those stains seem ingrained.
Will post better Pics.if i can borrow a Pro. scope down the track.
Another Coin from the same owner as the 6d,this time its a Shilling with what looks the residue of a 3 at the top of the 4.
I only have 6 or 7 1934 Shillings so this is the first eg i've seen with doubling of the date.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/shilling_21.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/shilling_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/shilling_213.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/shilling_ashampoo.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/shilling_2134.jpg)
Remnants of the underlying 3 are visible.
The 1933/4 overdate shilling is a real coin.
What is needed though is an example with a big overdate similar to the threepence.
Hi Basilstate, they are great images of the date on the sixpence. I'm a bit concerned however with the type; it is the standard (narrow) version of the date and the examples that Echidna has posted were from the scarcer wide date variety. Both of my examples are from the same die as Echidnas (has the die marker line in the scroll betwixt CE and AU) and as yet no other die has been confirmed.
So has Echidna or anyone had a good look at their standard '34s to see if signs of an overdate exist on any of them as well?
And another thing.... what concerns me about the wide date version is the fact that it is a wide date, yet the "thing" that suggests the upper left edge of a 3 would have required the 3 (or a 2 if 1932) to have been a really wide date, so a really wide date 1933 (or 1932) as the underlying die.
Thoughts?
Hi Neal,never took much of an interest in overdates until i got my first USB scope about 15 years ago so not much knowledge from my side of things.There was a Thread on one of the Oz Stamp Forums back then on the 1933 half O/D that got my attention so have been looking at all depression era Oz. Coins since then.
As far as the 6d goes i'll have to try and clean up the 4 as there seems to be something under there but may just be artifacts. I'll throw up scans of the Rev/Obv and add them to my post for future reference.
With regards to the Shilling O/D,as i posted before,it was ID back in the 1960's and regarded as a variety back then,at least to Sydney-centric collectors,but seems to have faded away since then.The first reference(that i noticed) to it since then was a Gold Coast(Brisbane?) Pawn Broker posting on the Coin Community Forum(not showing in the search function) a few years back but one of the Posters stated it was discounted as a variety by researchers.
Hi Basilstate, after posting my last reply I found something that made me realise I might be wrong. I looked at the MS63 1933 shilling that Eric has listed and it struck me that the final 3 was punched in both at a wonky angle and too far right (too close to the right trefoil). So if they can do that to the '33 shilling then the same would apply to a '33 (or '32) sixpence leaving the remnant to the right of where it should be had they done a pleasing job.
And of course if they suck at punching digits in they probably also suck at removing old digits (making us silly coin nuts thrilled to hunt for those defects 80 years later :winkextra:)
Like most here I had not even known about the sixpence overdate until echidna educated us a few months back, so like most I had not looked for the variety and like most I still have not looked closely at the standard narrow '34. So it may well exist.
Can anybody answer if the wide or the narrow variety was struck first? I'm just guessing the wide was and would account for the mint using up their leftover gear from 1933.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='125431' dateline='1629257168'Like most here I had not even known about the sixpence overdate until echidna educated us a few months back, so like most I had not looked for the variety and like most I still have not looked closely at the standard narrow '34. So it may well exist.
Can anybody answer if the wide or the narrow variety was struck first? I'm just guessing the wide was and would account for the mint using up their leftover gear from 1933.
I have no idea regarding what Coins were struck first Neal,its wonder Researchers,beside Briggs i guess,haven't delved indepth into the Melbourne Mints activities/shenanigians during the Depression,they seemed to have been fixated with the 1930 Penny.
Yes,i have never heard/seen anything on the 34 6d o/d until Echi posted,the 3d got all the attention but i had heard of the Shilling overdate and also read articles over the years where the Authors discounted it as a variety,just hub/die artifacts,at least they didn't call it 'spalling',LOL.
The thing that baffles our little group up here is why the Mint concentrated so much time/resources into the 1933 Half,i have well over 20 different final 3's and still counting.The only reason i can come up with is they were trying to perfect the adaption of the previous year(s) Hubs/Dies or training staff do do the same,back then there was no end in sight of the Depression and the War drums were beating in Europe.
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/PagwOY0.jpg)
About one in three or four "Overdates" has this dot, from what I've seen.
Maybe wishful thinking but this example maybe has something extra just to the bottom left of the 4.
Dont have it yet - still in the pipeline from the US...
Re the 1934 "overdate" shilling.
CAB has published a little essay I did about the 34 and the mess created during hubbing to date change tooling.
September 2021 v24 no8, page 10.
In this I had a closer look at a tiny sample of coins and find an endless number of deviations around the date.
I also point out these are not overdates, there is only one overdate coin in the whole pre-decimal series the 22/21 3d.
With the advent of cheap USB scopes it is easy for collectors to examine the hubbing work done and display this on nice big screens.
I have only a dozen or so 34 shillings to look at, collectively you guys must have thousands so would have a better go at listing the individual dies by the deviations possibly in the way I started in the essay.
Cheers, Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='125447' dateline='1629752567'Re the 1934 "overdate" shilling.
I also point out these are not overdates, there is only one overdate coin in the whole pre-decimal series the 22/21 3d.
With the advent of cheap USB scopes it is easy for collectors to examine the hubbing work done and display this on nice big screens.
Cheers, Fred.
Fred...2 different Mint 'Bosses',40 years apart,said the 22/21 3d was 'spalling' so they must be correct...LOL.
Good to see you posting...
I don't take Hendersons dismissal of the 22/21 seriously. He based his dismissal on the basis that a branch of the Royal Mint wouldn't make such poor job. Totally ignoring all the overdates struck in London or the existence of any number of badly hub doubled coins, ground off trefoils and horribly degenerated dies that they kept using.
Fred though is right about all the rest not being true overdates; but only if you exclude all the dies created by imperfect dedating.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='125449' dateline='1629773948'Fred though is right about all the rest not being true overdates; but only if you exclude all the dies created by imperfect dedating.
Brave decision Minister,i can see where Fred is coming from but for the last 100 years in Australia,to avoid ending in a padded room,Numismatists & Researchers have regarded these Coins as 'Overdated Dies',obviously how these Dies became óverdated before being used to strike the Coin is complex depending on Mint procedures in that era and the skill,or lack of it, of Mint Staff.
There is only one word for Melb. Mint procedures during the 1920/30's and that is slack,poor Record keeping and lack of skilled staff was only the start..
I have a great article ,that i can't find at the moment,may be on my XP Computer,on Overdates by a American writer that went into depth on how they occurred and used several Oz. Coins as egs.,including the 1930 penny which was a bit of a shock back then in the 1990's.
If i find it i will post but this Link is similar without the Oz. examples.
https://bestcoin.com/OverDate-Error-Coins.htm
Interesting article Basilstate, learnt a new word; "Galvano". Were galvanos used in any stage either here or in London for producing any of our pre decimals? They seem to be a sort of electrotype used in conjunction with the pantograph to make masters.
Hi Basil, yes I always like to stir the pot a bit about definitions.
I also point out if collectors keep defining the boundaries of the hobby by continually referring to 50 year old catalogs as all there is known, the hobby will stagnate, which it has.
The hobby is only going to stay alive by researching and opening up new avenues of interest.
However back to the main point of my article on the 34 shilling.
Your group should be able to do a much more extensive job on listing the different appearances of the 34 date hubbing.
You guys have access to far more coins than I do.
Perhaps you could do this using a similar method as I outlined in the article?
Define each date variation by a letter system and that would give a listing that can be expanded to a list of the dies used.
Please comment on the article by all means!
Fred.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='125452' dateline='1629880775'Interesting article Basilstate, learnt a new word; "Galvano". Were galvanos used in any stage either here or in London for producing any of our pre decimals? They seem to be a sort of electrotype used in conjunction with the pantograph to make masters.
I don't know Neal,i have heard the term before in reference to preparing Dies but how/where/why they were used,no idea. I try to avoid delving into Mint processes as the proof/facts/evidence to what they were up to,in Melb & Sydney at least, is just not there.
I will have to find the article i originaly referred to,American writer but went into great detail on Overdated Coins including Aust. & UK Mints egs.Interesting that he said US Mint Staff were trained(i think he meant late 19th ,early 20th Century) in Europe,didn't mention the UK as such,and from this he assumed Mint processes would be similar in the Coin egs. he listed.
https://www.coinbooks.org/v20/esylum_v20n14a12.html
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='125453' dateline='1629925407'Hi Basil, yes I always like to stir the pot a bit about definitions.
I also point out if collectors keep defining the boundaries of the hobby by continually referring to 50 year old catalogs as all there is known, the hobby will stagnate, which it has.
The hobby is only going to stay alive by researching and opening up new avenues of interest.
However back to the main point of my article on the 34 shilling.
Your group should be able to do a much more extensive job on listing the different appearances of the 34 date hubbing.
You guys have access to far more coins than I do.
Perhaps you could do this using a similar method as I outlined in the article?
Define each date variation by a letter system and that would give a listing that can be expanded to a list of the dies used.
Please comment on the article by all means!
Fred.
Hi Fred,main thing is its good to see you posting.
Our little group up here is working like a small Coin Club,swapping Info. on the various Coins we come across without having to use FB but at the end of the day we are just hobby collectors.
As far as the 1934 Shilling goes there was an article on it back in the 1990's,it was around the time the 1920 DOTS got a bit of publicity amongst the Dealers,not sure if CaB was around then.
IIRC the author said the remnants where in the wrong place for a 1933 Shilling and were Hubbing artifacts,or something like that,but he didn't take into account they may have reworked a different Hub/Die to the normal 1933 Shilling.
I have a 34 Shilling being sent to me that seems to have something under the final 4,i'll have a good look next week when it turns up and post a Pic.here.
Interesting Coin on Ebay at the moment but not 'buyable' at A$150.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/echi_shilling.jpg)
Had a short shift today so had a chance to re-examine the overdates.
There is more than a single die involved (I have 2) and examining images online it appears that there might be as many as 4 (or possibly 5) different overdates for the shilling. Also at least one reverse was paired with 2 different obverse dies (It is the version with a line/bar through the bottom of the 5 state stars).
So now that it is settled that there is something more than a random flaw on a working die it now creates a conundrum. Why do only 4 or so working dies have this suggestive line if the line was on the hub? Shouldn't all 18 or so dies have this line? It can't be a case of the hub getting a scratch prior to hubbing the last few dies as that would leave an indented line and not a raised line on the coins from those dies. Could it be a case that it is the remnants of a 2 or 3 that was not fully removed in the dedating/redating process and after the first few overdate dies were hubbed the remnant was seen as problematic and removed? Or was a second hub made? Are there hub markers known for the 1934 shilling and do all 18 or so dies have the same markers or is there evidence of 2 hubs and in particular signs of different hub markers for the overdates compared to the standard.
For the sixpence I've acquired a number of wide date '34s and found 4 different wide date dies, but only one shows the overdating. That only a single die exists would permit critics to claim it is just a suggestive flaw; but as we now have overdates for both the threepence and the shilling it does make it harder to dismiss the sixpence overdate.
Yes Neal,its amazing the number of reworked Dies,all denominations in Silver & Copper, turning up out of the Depression Era Melbourne Mint.Full time job to try and classify them.
Echi has one for sale on Ebay Oz. at the moment,i'll leave it up to him to post Pics.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/115138153679?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
I'll throw these Pics up whilst i have the Coin out,bit of a stretch to call it an overdate,bit of a squiggle over the top of the final 4,but interesting.
Just noticed,wrong thread,this is a Florin.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Florin_12.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Florin_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Florin_123.jpg)
Nice pics Basil.
Throw these Pics. up for future reference,great eg of an overdated Shilling,these were an accepted overdate in the 1960's,don't know why they are not in the various books these days.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/34_shilling123.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/34_shilling.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/34_shilling12.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/34_shilling1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/34_shilling.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/002.jpg)
Great photos Basil.
At Petersham on Sunday I picked up 2 examples of the overdate. One having the line down the left slope and the other arcing through the top (so 2 different dies).
I have pondered about why does the mark not be in a constant position (which it should be in an overdated hub). The only explanation is that a bunch of dies (1932? 1933? or even 1928?) that had been shelved due to lack of demand (Depression) were finished with a blow from the 1934 dated hub. Now would unfinished dies (perhaps not hardened) even appear in the records of dies on hand? Then they are taken from mothballs, given that blow from the '34 hub, hardened and counted as part of the 18 dies dated 1934? might be clues (or better yet, answers) in the records such as die steel in stock, die steel purchases, die steel taken from storage etc. And if they are examples of overdated dies and not just the oh so common examples of poor dedating-redating that Melbourne did then they deserve to be recognised.
Also got lucky and picked up 3 more overdate sixpences at the show as well as 3 more medium denticle '53 florins. The sixpences were cheap ($4 each) and well worn but the florins were aUnc to ChUnc. Now just need PCGS to recognise these varieties,
Had another chance this arvo to closely look at my 1934 shillings. My 5 overdate examples (2 dies) all show doubling at the top of the 3. My 3 non overdates (3 different dies) show no sign of doubling of the 3. Just another tidbit of evidence that the overdates are different to the standard and indicates that if there was another date on the die then it was in a slightly different position to the 3 on the '34 die. Was the 3 fixed for all 1931-36? Could that remnant be an 8 (1928)?
Hi Neal,great to see Petersham up and running again and sounds like you picked up some nice buys.
I try to stay out of the intricate Mint procedures but enjoy reading about them from people that have the time and knowledge to investigate.
One thing is the Mint were certainly putting time and effort into modifying Hubs/Dies during the Depression,we have over 30(now) different half-penny Dies and also waiting for PCGS to acknowledge the 33 Half overdate.
I also hope the pre-Dec. overdated/error varieties make a comeback,not worth listing on Ebay at the moment unless you give them away,long way from when Dealers got $20-30 for average Penny/3d egs. for most of my life.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='126384' dateline='1653986515'Had another chance this arvo to closely look at my 1934 shillings. My 5 overdate examples (2 dies) all show doubling at the top of the 3. My 3 non overdates (3 different dies) show no sign of doubling of the 3. Just another tidbit of evidence that the overdates are different to the standard and indicates that if there was another date on the die then it was in a slightly different position to the 3 on the '34 die. Was the 3 fixed for all 1931-36? Could that remnant be an 8 (1928)?
Brother found this Coin,nice clear overdate and doubling on the 3,almost to the extent it looks like the 3 was slightly relocated or as you say originally in a different position.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/4.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/5.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/6.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/1934_33_shilling123.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/Ashampoo_Snap_2022_10_09_15h19m14s_001_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/Ashampoo_Snap_2022_10_09_15h21m17s_003_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/Ashampoo_Snap_2022_10_09_15h20m10s_002_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/1934_33_shilling.jpg)
Fabulous pics Basil!!! :good:
Thanks Uni,the 2nd Pic is a bit blurry,i downloaded the wrong Pic.,i'll fix it up down the track.
I've posted about his before,this overdate shilling variety was ID back in the 1960's,probably before.
I know because i use to look for them as a Schoolkid as i couldn't afford key dates so was always on the lookout for varieties.
What i can't understand is how contemporary Reseachers/Coin experts don't even mention them in their 'factual' history of pre-Dec. Coins.
I had forgotten all about them until Echinda posted here.
There is also a lip inside the loop of the 9. Also another lip on the lower outside of the 9 loop
Nice pics.
The area of the date is also raised slightly.
Re post #44 "overdate 1934 shilling.
Quote:
"What i can't understand is how contemporary Reseachers/Coin experts don't even mention them in their 'factual' history of pre-Dec. Coins."
EH!
As a part time "researcher/expert" I normally let comments like that go through to the keeper, but not this time, back over the boundary fence it goes!
The subject has been covered endlessly by luminaries like Peter Andrews, Dr David Briggs and even little " factual","dot joiner" part timer me.
It (the 34 shilling) is just part of the blunders at the mint while overhubbing dates from one punch to another.
This carnage appears on lots of silver but especially the 3d 6d and 1/-.
For a start, just refer to David Brigg's book on silver or my article in CAB sep 2021 page 10 where I muse about the 34 shilling date in particular.
I think both Briggs silver book or a 2021 article could be called contemporary, if you bother to read them.
Cheers, Fred Lever.
Good to see you posting Fred and i hope your health is ok.
The Briggs book was sent to me by yourself Fred,unless you left a section out there is no mention of the 34 Shilling overdate but extensive detail on the 34 3d. Also there is a narrow date 34/33 3d,Pics are in the 3d thread.
If you can post an article on the 1934/33 Shilling written/published after 1970 and before the early 2000's ,when Ebay started, i will apologise as i never seen one but i had a life to lead so its more than possible.
Oh, sorry Basil, my apologies, I did not realise "contemporary" meant "published after 1970 and before the early 2000's when ebay started".
My mistake, I thought contemporary meant "as of today" like in the past 20 years or so.
Silly me!
Keep up the good work.
Fred.
My Brother reminded me there was a couple of overdate 34 Shillings on Ebay Oz. in the early days,2000-2001,so someone knew about them back then.
We have been discussing them on this Forum since slightly after it first started,6d as well but i'm not sure about them.
I have about 6 good egs. and probably the same number of 'iffy' egs.,i'm hoping Macca will put them in his new book so i can get them slabbed.
Anyway Fred not a subject to argue on,i'm sure we can find something more substantial to disagree on,LOL.
As i said its good to see you posting and i hope your health is ok.
Hi Basil just to add to the subject, of course there was no contemporary mention ( from 1934 to 2000) of a 4 OVER 3 " 1/- overdate simply because such a coin does not exist!
This is why it is no good dwelling in the past and why it is necessary to keep up with modern research.
I quickly pulled up the references from about 2010 onwards to do with the date changes, appearances of dates on the shillings.
2010 Lever CAB Vol 13 -03 p34.
2012 Andrews CAB Vol 15-10
2016 Lever CAB Vol 19-07
2018 Briggs Silver book, 2nd ed page 153 to page 154
2021 Lever CAB Vol 24-08 p10.
2009? Saxton (vale) triton web site, now no longer available.
( and that shows why it is so important to get research into print, not on a web site)!
Apologies to others I have missed!
The ongoing research by authors above has shown the overhubbing of punches or dies to change dates, sometimes is not that cleverly done and rennmants of earlier dates may not be properly erased. In the case of the 1934 shilling there are multiple dies used with the original 1,9,3 (pick any number like 0,1,2,3) squirming all over the place. It's not just a 3 OVER 4! its a 1934 over other datesof tooling from 1920's to 1930's.
I woke up after Saxton/Effendi/ Briggs made me realise what was going on.
Briggs opinion in Silver, is a renmant does show up under the 4 but then when you see all the renmants under the other numerals , as shown in this thread, and it all becomes clear.
You can never get a slabbed 34 shilling to be called an "overdate", its the WHOLE date string that has been changed. And there are many different dies and examples of the 34.
The only ONLY "overdate" where a die has a had a punch applied to change a date numeral slap over the last numeral is the 22/21 threepence, in the aussie pre decimal series.
All the other dates with bits sticking out under top numerals are HUBBING overdating mishaps.
The 1943 3 over 4 overdate does not exist, simple.
Cheers, Fred.
Oh and still hanging in there, covid has not gone away and its tough to recover from.
Thanks.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='127168' dateline='1665710547'Oh and still hanging in there, covid has not gone away and its tough to recover from.
Thanks.
Fred ,!!!,my head is hurting,i might leave it there.
Great to see you posting and hope you bounce back.
Jon Saxton/Triton's page has been saved by a few of us, so not all his research is lost.
I printed off about 200+ pages from Triton nearly 20 years back and have them stored away. I don't trust the internet to store things, sometimes things get deleted, shows page not found, 404 etc. And sometimes things have been edited to cover things up and put down the memory hole what was there before.
Quote from: 'gnome61' pid='127173' dateline='1665875284'Jon Saxton/Triton's page has been saved by a few of us, so not all his research is lost. http://web.archive.org/web/20110930140309/http://www.triton.vg/ozcoins.html
Thanks Gnome,as stated probably best to print everything out for future reference.
I was in contact with Jon about 10 years ago about the 1933 Half-Penny Overdate(if it is an overdate),his health was declining but he still managed to comment on the egs. i sent him.
https://www.coinsandaustralia.com/coins-articles-australia.php?article=overdates-in-australian-commonwealth-coins&id=93
No problem, will edit and delete the link. :)
Miss read my Post Gnome,that's a great link of some of Saxton's work/research,deserves to be available.
Just saying it probably best to print it out for future reference.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110930140309/http://www.triton.vg/ozcoins.html