Australian-Coins Forum

To my knowledge there has never existed a price list that faithfully attributes a value to all recognised penny major varieties, not in book form or on the internet. Most lists do include some historically well known examples that have always enjoyed prominence within the penny collecting scene, but it appears as though the publications are stuck in a pre 1960's time warp. 

There are 21 recognised major varieties that will not be found in any price list that I can track down. An issue that arises from this observation is it's likely there are holders of these coins in the community who are oblivious to their existence let alone the value, the importance of this is exemplified even more so now that in recent times PCGS has added all major varieties to their sets.

I have put together a list of values, some taken from known sale and auction prices, others are imaginary if indeed an example existed in higher grade.

Would be interested to hear any overall thoughts, or thoughts on levels of value. Something to kick around.   TIA

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Penny_major_variety_values.png)

you are right about not having a price list for those varieties,
have an idea now thanks ac.

Nice work - thanks for the effort

Great work Auto! :good:

Yeah,well done ,the 1921 English Obv. is reasonably plentiful as shown when Ebay started in Oz. so $10 each is probably in the ballpark as far as value goes although i've been picking them up for $1-5 on Ebay.
It was a con job by Dealers for Decades as far as mintage figures were concerned but us (amatuer/hobby) collectors are back to reality now,Thank you Internet.

Great list, been needed for years. 
Personally I think the 1922 Indian should be the same as the 1929 Indian
But fantastic what about the 1922 wide date?

I think major varieties are distinguished by the master dies used to produce the working dies, so features like differently spaced date numerals which were added later are not regarded as being part of the master, but there are others on the forum who would have a better idea. The various 1922 date width varieties are very interesting just the same. 

To name a few, other well known varieties which don't qualify as major varieties are; 

1913 - 14 - 15 left tilted 3, 4 and 5, 1916 - 17 - 18 missing I mint mark, 1924 filled 4, various 1925 varieties, 1926 running nose King, 1928 broken 8, 1939 dash after A, 1941 K.G with high dot after Y, 1941Y. roman nose on King, 1942Y. missing dot after Y, 1945Y. with large dot after KG, 1945Y. with wider spaced 4 and 5, 1951 PL with missing PL, 1952M with cud on 9, 1952A with doubled obverse legend, 1962Y. with double nose on Queen.

Getting back to the values table in the first post, I think the figures only need to be ball park, the main point being that they highlight a glaring difference to the uninitiated.

Great list, been needed for years. 
Personally I think the 1922 Indian should be the same as the 1929 Indian
But fantastic what about the 1922 wide date?

Good list, I'm sure some of us will question if the assigned values are too low or too high. Now we have something to chatter over

''Great Work''..How would you place a price tag on a 1930 English obv penny in Mint  Unc condition!!. Note-if there was such a thing...or one with an Indian obv..I have always thought there's something fishy about the 1930 penny as there are 1929 + 31 Unc's around but no 30tees...MMMMMM..You would think there would be at least maybe a couple.!!

Quote from: '::serenitystan' pid='120379' dateline='1569643163'''Great Work''..How would you place a price tag on a 1930 English obv penny in Mint  Unc condition!!. Note-if there was such a thing...or one with an Indian obv..I have always thought there's something fishy about the 1930 penny as there are 1929 + 31 Unc's around but no 30tees...MMMMMM..You would think there would be at least maybe a couple.!!

:huh:  Don't think so. If there was a million 1931 pennies struck and 100 are Unc then that is 1 in 10,000 odds. If only a few thousand 1930 pennies were struck then odds are that none survived Unc. The odds are also affected by where  a coin is released; if released in Sunshine, Dapto or Woop-Woop then there are no collectors to snare it and by the time it passes through the hands of a collector it has become distinctly circulated so he might not even take a second glance and notice the date, by the time it is noticed might be years/decades later. If released in Toorak or Double Bay then much higher odds of being kept as soon as it leaves the bank as more collectors, more spare wealth and a higher standard of residents.
And yes the values quoted for Unc 1930 English is way too low. If one ever came to market it would probably sell for what the top 1930 proof goes for.

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='120380' dateline='1569647830'

Quote from: '::serenitystan' pid='120379' dateline='1569643163'''Great Work''..How would you place a price tag on a 1930 English obv penny in Mint  Unc condition!!. Note-if there was such a thing...or one with an Indian obv..I have always thought there's something fishy about the 1930 penny as there are 1929 + 31 Unc's around but no 30tees...MMMMMM..You would think there would be at least maybe a couple.!!

:huh:  Don't think so. If there was a million 1931 pennies struck and 100 are Unc then that is 1 in 10,000 odds. If only a few thousand 1930 pennies were struck then odds are that none survived Unc. The odds are also affected by where  a coin is released; if released in Sunshine, Dapto or Woop-Woop then there are no collectors to snare it and by the time it passes through the hands of a collector it has become distinctly circulated so he might not even take a second glance and notice the date, by the time it is noticed might be years/decades later. If released in Toorak or Double Bay then much higher odds of being kept as soon as it leaves the bank as more collectors, more spare wealth and a higher standard of residents.
And yes the values quoted for Unc 1930 English is way too low. If one ever came to market it would probably sell for what the top 1930 proof goes for.

''YEP'' but you would think a collector who had a complete Unc set of pennies from 1911 to 1929 would be hunting + talking to other collectors regarding if a 1930 will be struck on that year..As we do today even in Dapto + Woop Woop..

Hi Stan "something fishy about the 1930 penny"? Please do not revive any fairy stories or myths about the striking of the 1930  dated penny. There has been a lot of research done regarding the production of pennies during the  1920's and 1930's and several articles produced by myself and others regarding the tooling leading to the dies used. My "the 1930 penny, the final word" printed in the December 2017 issue of CAB magazine covers a lot of the facts and has a bibliography of required reading for further reading. I was assisted greatly by coin forum members in providing me with access to coin images while researching for the article and thanks to all of you for that. Have a read of my article and you will see why the 1930 is so scarce and why there are so few in tip top condition. If you don't have access to the article let me know and I can email you a copy.
Cheers, Fred.

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120386' dateline='1569748198'Hi Stan "something fishy about the 1930 penny"? Please do not revive any fairy stories or myths about the striking of the 1930  dated penny. There has been a lot of research done regarding the production of pennies during the  1920's and 1930's and several articles produced by myself and others regarding the tooling leading to the dies used. My "the 1930 penny, the final word" printed in the December 2017 issue of CAB magazine covers a lot of the facts and has a bibliography of required reading for further reading. I was assisted greatly by coin forum members in providing me with access to coin images while researching for the article and thanks to all of you for that. Have a read of my article and you will see why the 1930 is so scarce and why there are so few in tip top condition. If you don't have access to the article let me know and I can email you a copy.
Cheers, Fred.

"Yeah" Thank's Fred. Will chase up a copy of the mag and see if i can get rid of that FISHY Smell...LOL...

The other interesting thing Stan mentioned regards collectors of the time 1920 to say 1930's.
My reading tells me that coin collectors round then were pretty thin on the ground, particularly if they wanted uncirculated coins.
The common folk like me may have collected the coppers mainly British but anything over that would be spent on unnecessary things like food and rent!
More well to do folk who collected all sorts of things may have decided to obtain new issue coins and there were a few well known collectors with extensive collections of gold silver and copper issues. Le Soufe springs to mind in Melbourne and working at the Mint certainly helped!
Folk like Le Soufe belonged to Societies who appreciated fine things and wanted things kept for posterity hence the big collections winding up in Museums. Thus there would have been a small select bunch of collectors with the necessary contacts or clout to go and get examples of unc coins direct from the Mint and that pretty much is where most of the UNC examples of anything were obtained. The
mint also pressed out sample strikes for the British Mint to review along with samples for the institutions in Oz. Some of the British Mint samples have found their way back to Oz as Mints reviewed their holdings and dispose of excess identical pieces. The Koshade family where the best 1916 Mule was saved certainly had a depth of collection that was alert to issues out of the ordinary. In those days you had to have a vocation of collecting to be involved. There certainly was not hundreds or thousands of collectors as we have now. I cant pluck any other names from memory at the moment, probably should do an article about old time collectors.....then i'll bet i'm dead wrong find out there were heaps of coin clubs and have dozens of people tell me so and that would be a good thing!
Most curiously and probably a reflection of the position that coinage had in most folks view of his time: Bill Mullett, with all of his access to every part of the Melbourne Mint and any coin you can think of, starting in the 1930's through the war and into the 1960's was not in the least interested in COIN COLLECTING,  just making the things and shoveling them out the door. Later on there were people working in some Mints that DID form coin collections, both internal and external to the Mint, and if you dig about you can find fascinating things happened in the 1970's and 1980's with people exceeding their working briefs. It is probably best to keep a lid on that can of worms.
I wandered a bit there, but in our forum population there may be some people who DID have Grand fathers and Fathers that DID try to make serious collections of Australian coins and might like to mention it.
Fred.

And getting back to Auto's theme, seeing i'm supposed to be an "expert" on pre-decimals, I went through the list and then had some argument with myself about some of them.
I'm not sure about the 1922 and 1929 Indians having any more rarity than the English most observation by count puts I/E at 50/50%. They are of course both VARIETIES of the date.
Agree with the list then up to 1930 but not sure of the 1930 pricing, but then how could you know, they don't come up on fleabay every day! Leave as is.
Agree, agree until I get to the 1952's. Well what a muck up with hubs and dies faults , idiots whacking punches into hubs and dies and hubbing faults and god knows what. There is a "wedge" 2 that is DISPLACED UPWARDS and David Briggs feels was one DIE only. The 2 is clearly higher (not tilted) than others and out of line with 5. Possibly only less than 100,000 pressed and much harder to find than the other rubbish. Maybe should have a premium? Not sure what you would call it, "hi 5 wedge"?
Then agree agree with rest. Maybe we should drop the term MULE for the 55 and 56, and use HYBRID? There is only 1 Mule in the Australian series the 16 half. (A mule has a side from some other country).
I wonder about the 1951 5G "no pl long 5"? Maybe just a die fill?
I wonder about the 1941 3D " dot top of 5"? maybe a just a die flaw?
Hmmmmmm. You can see why i gave up printing a varieties book or even trying to price things.
The more you look at pennies the more differences you see and those bloody dots have about 100 different positions depending on how finitely you measure the position.
I'm just about back to thinking, that say for the 1920 there are only TWO varieties: English/Indian, and rest can be attributed to DIE types, die 1, die2, die 3 etc etc for the reverse dot differences. It like the 1942 Indian obverse with I under the king. ONE variety but at least 6 different HUBS with hand punched I different positions. You cannot call each one of those a VARIETY, just identified as OD1, OD2, OD3 and so on. Sorry wandered a bit there. Will do a magazine article about this variety/die/hub thing.
Good work Auto something to think about.
Fred.

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120389' dateline='1569813413'The other interesting thing Stan mentioned regards collectors of the time 1920 to say 1930's.
My reading tells me that coin collectors round then were pretty thin on the ground, particularly if they wanted uncirculated coins.
The common folk like me may have collected the coppers mainly British but anything over that would be spent on unnecessary things like food and rent!

Fred.

Yeah,Stamps seemed to be the go back then,times were extremely tough,stating the obvious,particulary from 1914 thru to the late 1940's before Oz. Economy got some momentum in the 1950's.
Family Friend(of my Parents) was a Stamp/Coin/Bullion Dealer from the late 1940's thru to the early 1970's and often said Coins(other than Gold) were barely 10% of his Business until the feeding frenzy of the 1960's when they overtook Stamps in popularity.
Don't close the Book on the origins of the 1930 Penny,lots of research by very knowledgeable people was done in the 1960's(and possibly late 1950's) on where and how it came into being.
Gilbert Heyde in particular and the Numismatic Society of NSW in general spring to mind as far as my neck of the woods go,also Journalists in Melb.(Age and SMH IIRC) were also chasing details on the 1930 Penny but i think these were more opinion pieces than cold hard facts. 
Why these published documents/reports have disappeared is hard to explain but i'm sure they will turn up in someone's collection and make their way to the Internet eventually.

Basil your family friend pretty much echos the thoughts of people that I have spoken to over the years (1950's to 1990's). I wish I had asked more questions while chatting in their shops but you don't think of that sort of thing at the time. Of course they are all gone now! That estimation of stamps/coins/bullion percentage seems pretty right to me, coins were just an  after thought compared with stamps. There was a peculiar social angle where stamps were considered to be every-mans hobby rich or poor while coins were a "rich mans " pursuit, hence the high end collections plastered with gold and silver and rare issue examples. There was also a schism between the coin collectors and the mint. The people that actually made the coins and knew all about them had nothing to do with the people that collected them, the divide was that wide. Only a few people bridged that social gap that is lowered them selves to talk to the "chaps at the mint", the factory. Of the hundreds of people that worked at the Mint (Melbourne) only Mullett ever wrote in public about the people, the place and the coins. That fact is remarkable when you consider other hobbies such as Radio, aviation and automobiles, where endless numbers of folk wrote about their industries with data, specifications, about the factories the methods, where stuff was made, who did it, and all available in articles, books, web sites information that goes on and on.
The Societies in Numismatics unfortunately had almost no contact with the Melbourne Mint and in general know nothing much about how coins were made and who made what. You only have to read the society journals to understand even the Museum folk had nothing to do with the mint, the very place the coins were being made! Very, very curious. You would have thought the society people would have been down there with bells on to get the latest gen on what was happening. Later on the Canberra Mint and the goings on there( circa 1970)  would have sent anybody running for their lives and of course now the Mint is a very different open communicating place. Too communicating some would say!!
Yes, I have endless newspaper clippings and references mainly from Melbourne and all centred on the latest finding of a 1930 penny and how much they were worth all around the 1960's. Pity someone did not have the brains to ask the people that were actually making the coins what was going on. So much for journalism.
Fred.

There was very high security back in the day..You could not just rock up at the mint and ask to buy some coins..The state authorities were asked to ensure the efficiency of police supervision in the locality,and a military guard of four men was on duty at all times. A guardroom was situated inside the door where three of the guards remained,while a forth did sentry duty in the street by day and in the passage at knight..The guard was supplied by the Royal Australian Artillery..Upon pressing a bell the Visitor is scrutinised through a ''peep-hole'''in a large heavy gate. After satisfying the guard that entry is required for Legitimate purposes the visitor is admitted. Once inside the gate the presence of guards is always obvious. In the main foyer of the building the visitor is required to sign the visitors book, and with a few exceptions most of the signatures appearing in the book are those of Bank Officials. At no time is the visitor left alone in the building,and must always be accompanied by an officer . As part of the security arrangements,even those working within the building are NOT allowed into every section..Bars protecting the entrance could be seen glimpses of service bayonets.....

Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='120439' dateline='1570235223'There was very high security back in the day........

No doubt,especially after the Sydney Mint was closed,it(Sydney) had a reputation of alleged corruption,cronyism,and general slackness,Melb. Mint didn't want to be the next to be closed and lifted their game considerably.
After saying that the Melb. Mint did have regular Visitors in the lead up to 1930 and after,where possible they were tracked down via 1960 Ads in the Age Newspaper along with former Mint employees to see if they could shed some light on the 'great mystery' of the 1930 Penny. 
Mint employees were not allowed to comment at that time so any article referring to direct quotes is a fantasy piece,that's why the Age Journalists chased former employees,that's where the 'myth' of the coin swapping began,from a former Mint employee.That doesn't mean its true but if factual it must have only been a handful of Coins involved as AFAIK no one has came forward to verify it other than the family of a Military serviceman who's 1930 penny,not UNC,was auctioned in Sydney in the early 1970's.
As an aside,even Harold Holt was asked to find out the origins of the Penny after a long lunch with a Fairfax  Political Journo. around 1964-66,that's how much the Coin was in the Public's psyche as we headed to Decimal Currency.AFAIK nothing came of this request which is not surprising as he was at war at the time with the Treasury and senior Mint officials over many issues including the Silver content of the proposed 50c piece,Treasury eventually won when they got Billy McMahon(then Treasurer) to withdraw it from circulation.  
Interesting topic which is still current today and i know of at least one Book on the subject that's being prepared at this very moment,Author wants it printed and ready for release in 2029 as he is worried he might not still be around then.

Even if mint employees couldn't publicly comment they could surely make comments once they retired (or just make off the record comments). With Melbourne closed (1969) they were all FORMER employees and I doubt some form of Official Secrets act applied to them with lifetime gag orders or whatnot. Besides Mullett interviewed the staff and basically came up with zip (who can remember any details of some routine task among hundreds of similar tasks done 30 or 40 years previously).
That not a single gentleman or society matron in Melbourne ever came forward in the boom of the 1960s to show an Unc 1930 penny that they had swapped as a schoolgirl/boy on a school excursion to the mint in 1930/31 (or that their father had brought home after a mint tour) is telling that the "swap a penny" myth is just garbage. Most visitors to the mint in the Depression were not poor and unemployed but from solid middle class (secure jobs, kids in private schools etc) backgrounds to whom a penny was small change and easy to keep so the other myth that all the swap pennies were spent to buy bread etc in desperate times is ludicrous (especially as 70% of all workers were NOT unemployed even at the worst of the Depression).
Basil, that outlier of the family of a military serviceman, any details to confirm that it actually was swapped and not a misunderstanding by the family? I'm presuming that as it wasn't the serviceman himself putting it up for auction then he was probably long dead and what the family claimed was at best hearsay.

Neal,your point about Mullett is a good one,he was quoted some years back in print as saying he can't say with any certainty if the 'swap' happened or not and in general how the 1930 ended up in circulation.
My comments re Mint staff were related to 1960 articles,they were not allowed to comment,confirm/deny,speculate or have any opinion at that time on any Coins,not only the 1930 but also the 31 dropped Indian which was starting to gain attention, ,articles that quoted them were false.
As i posted before the Auction for the 1930 in the early 1970's was at the Paddington Town Hall,i was there,it's origins may be a Family thing or added by the Auctioneer to attract attention as the general consensus at the time was that they entered circulation via Mint swaps,telling factor was it was not UNC so i won't argue there,just pointing out a point of research for anyone with the time to pursue.
The thing i object to is the current practice of presenting Opinion pieces as facts with little substance other than joining dots,the 1930 was heavily researched in the 1960's,and possibly before, but apparently that research 50 years later means nothing.
I understand the rise of the 3rd party graders in the 1990's has meant a reference point for all Coins and where are the 1930's in the better grades?,looks like they don't exist at this point.
However i firmly believe a swap did happen as most Coin enthusiasts in the 1960's believed,but probably only a handful of Coins involved and the rest of the 1930's Mintage entered circulation via normal means later in the 1930's.
Just my opinion,i may be correct ,partly correct,or i may be totally wrong,but just present some facts before disparaging 1960 researchers such as Gilbert Heyde and his cohorts.

Thanks to all for the comments and discussion. I haven't been able to read the posts till now, we were choo chooing on the Ghan  :yahoo:

Just a quick reference to the 1930 English obverse, I think there are only three known, one of which is graded by PCGS at XF45. I remember seeing an image of one of the other two, and it would have graded VF+ IMO, so this means that two of the three known coins are around gVF. I think it's amazing that from a small sample, two coins were plucked from circulation in such a relatively high grade. 

About three or four years ago or more, one of these coins which I think was from the Benchmark collection and probably the one graded by PCGS, was for sale at $300,000 from Strand Coins in Sydney. I don't know if it sold at that price, but such a figure would back up what Stan and Neal said in relation to an imaginary value for a coin in UNC, if one actually existed.

One of the six 1930 Proof pennies was recently sold by Coinworks for $1,150,000, which would lead one to think an imaginary 1930 English obverse penny in UNC would surely need to be at that level or higher. So the value of this one requires adjusting  :good: Have also updated values for 1952 wedge serif and 1922.

Hi Basil, your opening line in your last post and regarding Mullett, I quote, "he was quoted some years back in print as saying he cant say with any certainty if the 'swap' ever happened or not and in general how the 1930 ended up in circulation", is very unfortunate as it implies to anyone reading that post, that Mullett had little information about the 1930 coin. I had to go and get his  book on the Mint  just to refresh my memory and am sitting here with the book on my lap as I type. So that people do not get an erroneous impression about Mullett and dismiss his knowledge; he devotes SIX pages of the book to the production of the 1930 penny, page 11 to page 17. From page 11 to 14 he covers the tooling, that is the hubs and dies in excruciating detail tracing the parentage and passage of various dies from foundry to production. In one short paragraph  on page 15 he discusses the chances of a "visitor" being issued with a penny and details why this is so unlikely owing the circumstances at the time. Then in page 16 he discusses the number of 1930 pennies from production detailing which die types were used with a lot of detail regarding exactly how such a count can be done and concludes on page 17 with his tally or total as he calls it and what die types they were. Then he continues onto the 1931 pennies. That is hardly being uncertain as to how the 1930 got into circulation!!!
So, far from a "quote" saying he had little idea about the 1930 pennies regarding being swapped or how they "ended up in circulation" we have 6 pages of hard copy discussion direct from his book "Australian Coinage" telling us with some detail how they were made, when they were made and then simply put in circulation. There is nothing vague or ambiguous in his details and we all owe it to ourselves to read his book to get a first hand account of the mint operations from the man that worked there! The 1930 pennys were made as a progression from 1929 to 1931 and are few in quantity because the government did not require many over that time. its all as simple as that with no mystery or other story.
 In my research  I narrowed down a time span when the myth of door swappers became known in print media and readers of my last three papers on the 1930, printed in various issues the CAB magazine, can read the detail there.
Fred.

Fred,there are still no facts on how it got into circulation,some 'experts' that were in print in the 1960's stated it was nearly 10 years,start of the war,before they turned up and started to create interest which peaked in the 1960's.
Only thing i object to is presenting a argument by denigrating anyone who has a different view,the 1930 penny origins were heavily researched in the 1960's by people that lived and breathed Oz. Coins,to dismiss their views and research 50 + years later is just wrong.
Anyway,my last words on the subject which i find interesting,local Coin Dealer seems to think its me trying to relive my youth so best i move on.

Hi Basil, there was an example in an auction some years back that mentioned that it was found on the Glenelg tram in 1938. So that is pre war and as it wasn't in an exceptional grade it implies several years of active circulation.
There was also a couple that came to the attention of the Melbourne museum in about 1940. 
Gilbert Heyde I think was the chap who owned 7 of them, so he was actively on the hunt to purchase examples. Surely collectors like him would have asked other collectors active in the 1920s and 30s if they had any reliable information about swap a penny. And the coin society members from the late 1920s would (mostly) still be around in 1945 when the hunt really began and would have swapped recollections of their mint tours and if they had been offered the opportunity to swap a penny.
Does anybody have a newspaper article from say pre 1965 that mentions swap a penny? Nothing that I've read from the 1940s or 1950s mentions it so when did the theory first surface?

Hi Fred Basil and nealeffendi..The 1930 penny is a eighty nine year Chinese Whisper . Theory-Speculation-Opinions will go on for another 89yrs....FACT stays the same-No record of Minting + Distribution into Circulation...Will always be clouded in Mystery. That's why it's the King of pre-decimals...Cheers..

[quote pid='120466' dateline='1570515160']
Hi Fred Basil and nealeffendi..The 1930 penny is a eighty nine year Chinese Whisper . Theory-Speculation-Opinions will go on for another 89yrs....FACT stays the same-No record of Minting + Distribution into Circulation...Will always be clouded in Mystery. That's why it's the King of pre-decimals...Cheers..
[/quote]

I agree,that's the point i'm making,where is the evidence?,where are the facts?,almost all accounts are opinion pieces that join dots and quote unrelated 'facts' to make a point,this has been going on since i was at School in the 1960's.
This will gain momentum over the coming years as we approach the 100 year anniversary,i know of at least one Book on the 1930 Penny(and the Mint in general) being prepared,Author is looking for some Melb. input as its Sydney centric at the moment.
Anyway its not a subject to cause ill-feeling or ill-will,just a interesting discussion topic.

[quote pid='120465' dateline='1570504688']
Does anybody have a newspaper article from say pre 1965 that mentions swap a penny? Nothing that I've read from the 1940s or 1950s mentions it so when did the theory first surface?
[/quote]

Neal,the swap theory was the main stream one from the 1960/70's,and possibly the late 1950's,why the dozens of articles written on the 1930 Penny at the time are not showing,i can't explain, but i'm sure they will begin to surface over the coming years.
This is a scan that i posted in the other Thread a couple of years ago,i have it noted on my old computer as "Readers Digest article form the 1970's" but i do remember it was reprinted from a Book published in the late 1960's/early 1970's and the original RD article contained an acknowledgement  reference to that fact.

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Basil, yes one should never denigrate any researcher which is why I have gone to great lengths in my articles and papers regarding the 1930 penny, to refer to and quote accurately the research of the many people involved in the last century.
Regarding the question of how the 1930 dated pennies were released: this was thoroughly vetted and put to bed in the 1990's and I am thoroughly perplexed that plain written evidence and proofs are simply ignored.
Three prominent researchers (amongst dozens of others) put the matter to rest and have left written reports for posterity. John Sharples, the then Curator of Numismatics at the Museum of Victoria, William Mullett, the then retired Chief Technical Officer of the Melbourne Mint, and Walter Bloom, the most eminent Australian Numismatist.
1/ Sharples, in his Numismatic Journal paper, JNNA vol3, produced an extensive analysis involving Treasury and Mint records, showing how coins dated 1929, 1930 and 1931 were struck and issued for circulation in 1931.
2/ Mullett, in his book "Australian Coins" provides a forensic account from the Mint Press and workshop records that prove without doubt how and when coins dated 1929, 1930 and 1931 were struck, and issued in for circulation in 1931.
3/ Bloom, in his Numismatic Journal paper, JNNA vol21 details the now whereabouts  and provenance of the pairs of the Specimen 1930 coins provided by the Mint in 1930.
In short, the 1930 dated coins "got out" of the mint in the same way every other coin of any year did. Any "proof" or "specimen" coin was either picked up from, or, officially presented  by the office of the mintmaster, and any 1930 dated circulation coin was in the job batch delivered by the mint for the 1931 order from the Treasury. That is IT.
It is such a pity that Auction houses and dealers, when preparing a valuable 1930 coin for sale or producing a coin catelouge, persist in reproducing the same old touchy feely canards promoting mystery where there is actually no mystery at all! The Mint was asked to produce Specimens and Circulating coin and they did as asked, to the best of their ability.
Anybody that is confused or uncertain should at minimum, carefully read the three Numismatic papers mentioned above, and, to toot my own horn, read my article printed in the December 2017 issue of CAB vol 20-10 where I summarised a lot of the researchers, name by name, in a paragraph "how the 1930 pennies were released". If after reading these papers,  if anyone still did not understand  how the 1930 dated penny coins came about and into circulation, they never will!
This is the last response I will make on the matter of the 1930 penny in this forum.
I also apologise to "Auto" and the moderator of this site for carelessly Hi-Jacking Auto's thread which was about the joy of discovering and collecting Varieties of pennys not rehashing long ago resolved topics.
Fred Lever.

No worries from me Fred, I'm enjoying the conversation. What's interesting, is over a period of 50 years the value of an example in VF has increased ten fold, I doubt it's kept pace with inflation. 

A schooner of beer in 1969 cost around 20 cents, that's about 25 to 30 times cheaper than today. I'm sure if the same comparison was done with the necessities of life like bread, milk, eggs and butter, the outcome would be the same.

Same could be said for the average house price of 50 years ago compared to now. The only things which have increased in cost at the same rate as the 1930 penny, would be motor cars and electrical goods, mainly due to Asian manufacturing.

Having said that, I do remember an older workmate telling me he purchased a three in one television back in 1956 for 600 guineas, that's the equivalent of $1260, or $12,600 today at ten fold inflation  :shok: :shock: Sorry, got off the track a bit   :huh:

In the 1960's again,Numismatists who were researching the origins of the 1930 Penny traced it back to being released in some numbers during the 2nd WW.As usual with this Coin there is no proof but they joined dots,speculated and had a educated opinion that during the 1940's Coin shortage a box of 1930's was found and released into circulation.
I don't know if that happened,but its possible given the people offering this theory were Numismatists who were alive during the 1940's.

So, Basil. John Sharples and Walter Bloom, their papers published in the JNNA issues are not factual essays?!!!!!!!
I assume you have the mentioned JNNA journals in your library and have read the research papers indicated?
So what did you make of  John Sharple's research in his Vol 3  paper and is Walter Bloom also just "joining the dots" with no actual facts in his Vol 21 paper?
I think both gentlemen will be very interested in your critique of their JNNA papers.
I also assume you have read the late William Mulletts book on Australian Coins from cover to cover. What did you make of the work of the man that retired  as senior  technical officer after 40 years devotion to the Mint. Was he just writing with no actual facts and joining the dots?
I am sure that the members of the Numismatic  Society and the Mullett family will be fascinated with your observations.
I may be a bit light hearted in my opinion pieces published regarding coins, but note have had around 100 essays published on various topics, but base many observations on researched facts.
I ask you directly, have you read the JNNA essays by Sharples, Bloom regarding the topic and have you read the book produced by William Mullett?
Await your reply.
Fred.

Almost no chance that they were released during the war as the curator at the Melbourne museum had seen one by 1940 (and that was before there was the scramble to find enough coins to cover the yank invasion). Also I have never seen an article from the 1960s by any Numismatist with research claiming that they were released during the war (and I spent many hundreds of hours years ago going through old numismatic society journals, Spinks Numismatic Circulars, microfiche of old newspapers etc in the State and Mitchell libraries and I also hunted for original printings of Australian coin publications).
To quote John Gartner "This coin was in general circulation for several years before collectors knew, in fact, that it had been issued. Consequently this coin, with the exception of a few proofs, is not available in uncirculated condition". That was on page 37 of The Australian Coin Catalogue (1966). No mention of being a wartime release or of swap a penny.
Another top pair of numismatists from that era (J. Hunt Deacon and Kenneth Irons) put out Australian Commonwealth Coinage 1910-1960 (Numismatic Society of SA, 1961) and they simply wrote that some have been noted.
Gilbert Heyde published Coins (1945) with a preface dated 1944 and an ad for Dave Raymond inside the back cover (a dealer who handled about 10 of them in 1945) includes the 1930 penny as vr (very rare) so presumably this publication would have been read by coin society members by 1945, so had the penny only been released 2-3 years earlier then all the examples found by 1945 would have still been decent.
Every indication is that they were released during the early 1930s and circulated for over a decade before they became more widely known to collectors and dealers (1944-45); had they been released during the early 1940s the amount of wear on the dozens put into collections during the 1940s would be such that those early finds would be mostly gVF or better.
Also it takes time for coins to migrate from where they are released yet by 1945 examples had turned up in at least 3 states with Glenelg (SA) in 1938, Melbourne (Vic) 1940 and Sydney having at least 10 going through Raymonds shop.

Quote from: 'Await your reply.' pid='120481' dateline='1570604533'Fred.

Fred,i edited my post,i don't want to upset you as i've been told you have Health problems.

Neal,the WW11 Theory was common in the 1950/60's,that's what Fred was talking about when mentioning the guy  sitting on the box of 1930 coins.
The only fact was there was an acute shortage of Coins in the early 1940's and the 1930 Penny did not start turning up in circulation,in numbers,until the late 1940's/50's,by the time the Public was aware of the Coin in the 1960's it was well found.
Researchers speculated that the MM had released every Coin they had by 1942 and there must have been a box/bin/bag of previously minted Coins including the 1930,released into circulation to try and meet Banking requests..
One of the reasons given is the simple one used by current researchers,if they were released in 1931 or even later in the 30's why were they not found by Numismatists?,why were they not in collections at that time,the fact is they did not show in circulation in any sort of numbers until after WW11.
The same argument has also been applied to the 'swap' theory,if true where are they?,they would have been a hot item that collectors would fight to collect,but none showed in collections or anywhere else for that matter.
I'm sure the first article i read in the early 1960's mentioned VIP visitors were given a penny,this was left out of later articles and books on the subject and morphed into 'Mint Visitors'.
If true it must have been only a handful of Coins given out as during the 1930's ,for all intent and purpose,this Coin did not exist in the public arena,if it had the Dealers would have made a killing,but not one turned up.

I've included a scan of the Heyde Book you referred to,this is the earliest,disregarding gossip,rumour,urban myths  and dicey Newspaper reports, non-Govt. factual account of the 1930 Penny we have been able to find at this time.
I think you said Heyde had 7 or 8 1930 Pennies,our Family Friend who was a Dealer at the time and knew Heyde,said the figure was probably 3 or 4 times that figure,all found post WW11, given the number he and his cronies at the NS of NSW auctioned off.They made a killing on the 1930 penny post WW11..

Anyway i'm not knowledgeable enough,or arrogant enough,to assume all of the above is 100% correct,especially since its over 50 years since these guys did their research,just letting you guys know there are alternate views to your own out there.

Again,sorry Fred,i hope you keep posting your knowledge as i enjoy the discussion on the subjects i'm interested in and also i have been asked to help prepare a Book on the subject as the Author is loosing his sight.

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/400/IMG_0001.jpg)

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/400/IMG_0002.jpg)

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='120489' dateline='1570663273'One of the reasons given is the simple one used by current researchers,if they were released in 1931 or even later in the 30's why were they not found by Numismatists?,why were they not in collections at that time,the fact is they did not show in circulation in any sort of numbers until after WW11.

Not that many were made for them to be found and coin collecting wasn't what it is today: tt still took until February 2002 for the 2000 dollar mule to be noticed.
Also, the Melbourne Mint recorded 0 1930 pennies as having been struck for circulation, so anyone who was interested enough to ask them would have been left with the impression that it was like a 1930 threepence, sixpence, shilling or florin i.e. non-existent.

So Basil, I take it from your refusal to answer my question, you have not read and understood the work specifically on the origin of the 1930 penny by John Sharples  and Walter Bloom in the JNNA journals and not read the section on production of pennys 1929 to 1931 in Mulletts book on Australian Coins?
Simple question requires a simple answer, yes, or, no.
Fred.

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120502' dateline='1570737954'So Basil, I take it from your refusal to answer my question, you have not read and understood the work specifically on the origin of the 1930 penny by John Sharples  and Walter Bloom in the JNNA journals and not read the section on production of pennys 1929 to 1931 in Mulletts book on Australian Coins?
Simple question requires a simple answer, yes, or, no.
Fred.

Fred,i have read parts,including the bits you love quoting,so i'll leave it at that until i get permission to Post some Documents from the 1960's.

[quote pid='120501' dateline='1570706095']

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='120489' dateline='1570663273'One of the reasons given is the simple one used by current researchers,if they were released in 1931 or even later in the 30's why were they not found by Numismatists?,why were they not in collections at that time,the fact is they did not show in circulation in any sort of numbers until after WW11.

Not that many were made for them to be found and coin collecting wasn't what it is today: tt still took until February 2002 for the 2000 dollar mule to be noticed.
Also, the Melbourne Mint recorded 0 1930 pennies as having been struck for circulation, so anyone who was interested enough to ask them would have been left with the impression that it was like a 1930 threepence, sixpence, shilling or florin i.e. non-existent.
[/quote]

I feel like i'm in a tag Team match here.LOL.Sorry Mr.T,for some reason i'm having trouble quoting your Post but its sitting above.

That's possible,one of the few facts about the 1930 Penny,other than people joining dots to present a opinion,was there was a small Mint run of a Penny dated 1930.
Numismatists sorted(and still do) Thousands of Coins a Week,it would have been found very quickly if it had been released in 1931 or even early 1930's,they did not exist in Circulation ,AFAIK,at that time,remember,even back then ,1930's,they were looking for 23 Halves and the 1925 so no shortage of lookers.
The articles i have scanned for a Family Friend are from the early 1960's and make a lot of sense regarding the 1930,at least to me.I will Post them here down the track when/if i get permission.
The Author made the point all 1930's found at that point were circulated,so gave little creedence to the popular 'swap' theory.If it did happen it was only a 1 or 2,handful at best, Coins,he pointed out Numismatist's would have been on them in a flash with Dealers fighting for one.There was nothing that we can find in print saying anything about the 1930,and according to Neal,the Visitors Record at the MM showed Numismatic Society(s) did visit in 1930.
His opinion was that the chance that the Penny was released in 1931 or even the early 1930's is probably 10% or less for the simple reason none were found,none in high end sets,"for all intent and purpose"they did not exist at that time.
The next window was the late 1930's as we moved to the Kangaroo,he rates this a 20% possibility for the same reasons,they were not found in main stream collecting.
The next window is 1942(thereabouts),although not widely known,Newspapers were under Govt. censorship at the time,Banks In Sydney and Brisbane ran out of Coins. Emergency supplies were only stop gap until India came on line,this is when he feels the 'box' of 1930's  was collected from there hidey-hole at the Mint and placed into Circulation,chance of probability 70%.
He presents some very good arguments for this theory,all 1930's up to that point(1960) were retrieved from Circulation and every Coin he could trace was found post war,indicating a 1940's release by the Mint.
There a couple more reasons he gives but as they relate to Heyde and his cronies i won't mention them at this
 point.Now,to the point,to dismiss this theory as 'myth' without any facts to the contrary is just folly and arrogance. 
The Coin shortage in the early 1940's is fact,its not an opinion or someone joining dots,its fact,Banks could not cash checks or make up pay-packets.
In the RD article i posted earlier the Author said the reason for this shortage was the influx of US Servicemen,partly true but not the whole story. The Oz. Govt. was paying the wages,or support,for thousands of Foreign Servicemen/Civil Servants/Politicians after the fall of Singapore,British,NZ,Dutch,Indians etc, large amounts of cash were flowing to the NT and WA leaving the eastern State Banking system with shortages.Also at this time large amounts of Currency were being sent o/seas,NG in particular,to pay the troops and local militia and Labourers.,later the Solomons and associated Islands.
I should also add that average Families were hoarding Coins in the early 1940's as the Japs. prepared to invade,the Oz Psyche at that time placed more comfort in Silver/Copper than paper Notes that would be worthless when the Japs. actually landed.Another reason for the 1940's Coin shortage which was far more serious than the Govt. and Bank Executives let on.  
Anyway that's one possibility relating to origins of the  1930 Penny,dismiss as myth to your peril,especially if you are worried about your standing in the Coin/Note Collecting community,a problem,as a Neville Nobody who knows nothing,i don't have.

Just something from left field, would it be possible to find out the provenance of the highest graded circulation 1930 penny we know of? I remember just a few years ago, Downies or IAG auctions were at the Brisbane ANDA show displaying a high grade 1930 penny they had for sale, I viewed the coin and it was easily gEF+ IMO.

A coin of this grade would not have been in the system all that long, just a guess but twelve months at best, before being plucked from circulation, and wouldn't have had too many owners since. Do you think there is the slightest chance the provenance of a coin like this could be traced? If so, it sure would give an indication of when it was released.

Hi Auto, from your last post on the topic,
1/  re the value of coins, yes the 1930 is badly overvalued and like a lot of other collectables plummeted in value after the bust in the first decade of 2000's. The 1930 that I bought in F grade for $4000 around 1980 something ( yes I paid too much) would auction for $20,000 at the best in 2019. That 5 x rise in 40 years say, and the investment  gurus amongst it can work out whether that's a good investment or not! I also note that a specimen in POOR condition I was offered at the same time at $1000 has popped up from time to time in auctions usually for $5000 or so. (its the corroded pock marked one).
2/ That 1952 variety I mentioned for your Major Variety list, i'll try and dig out my example and photo it so you can see exactly which die i'm talking about. I can pinch a picture of it from David Briggs book but I would rather post up my own pix.
Cheers, Fred.

Interesting debate and a touch of the John Farnham Farewell Tour -"this will be my last comment on this thread" or similar.

I have a question... The swap a penny when visiting the mint story has been around for a long time; is there any evidence that this happened with other than 1930 pennies, different denominations or was any sort of known practice? I have never seen it mentioned in respect of anything other than 1930 pennies. If there is no evidence of such a practice otherwise surely that would be strong evidence it is not true?

Hi JeffH, thanks for the very sensible question. (yes I feel like JF, except I don't get paid for reruns! But anyway... ok fellows, 1 and a 2 and a 3 away we go!)

 The very earliest verifiable written record of the myth I can find in my library of 1930 research (several hundred documents) are the booklets issued by "seven seas" (you stamp guys will know all about them) a/ in the  1978 "readers Digest booklet", b/ the 1981 "Seven seas stamps" booklet for collectors (both identical press and print). They quoted Estella Robinson (the researcher) as having said coins were exchanged. After that the story started popping up in the Australian Coin Review "letters from readers" page and I have documented all these appearances in my "1930 Final Word " article (December 2017) in the paragraph "When did the myth start?"  Estella would be spinning in her grave about that spurious use of her name she being one of the most highly regarded and verified researcher in coin stamps and script.
I cannot find any previous VERIFIABLE printed or written source for the fable. I would love it if anyone could find a VERFIABLE source previous to those dates. NOT what some one remembers that their uncle heard a man saying who had a friend working at the mint, but a printed copy from a respectable source.
Did any coins come out of the mint other than the official "proof/specimen" and circulating issues, YES probably, there are collections documented over the years that contained wonderful state coins and no doubt there would be receipts from the mint masters office obtained at the time and at society functions there are records of new minted coins being displayed for comment looking at what the Sydney/Melbourne mints could do. I have not documented any of these instances not being interested.

Cheers, Fred (Farnham)


Apologies again for high-jacking the thread

Hi Auto, and everybody else, I typed out a little starter piece on the 1952 date differences and made up a word doc with three imbedded photos below. I tried a copy-paste of the doc in the reply box, the text dropped in ok but the photos did not stick.
I have run out of talent at this point, I have pix as .jps and can create doc or pdf files but am clueless as to how to paste in the .jpgs.
Can anybody clue me up with a simple way of doing this from the docs and jpgs I have?
Thanks Fred.



Fig 1.
https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/931a.jpg




















Fig 2.
https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/587.jpg















Fig 3.
https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/394.jpg







I looked at my database and found I had about 100 off 1952 variety/errors listed and out of the 100 about 30 were date variations. Its many years since I collected these coins and my descriptions are based on the coin catalogues of the time that suggested there were about a dozen die types.
I know how wrong I was about this, particularly after I read David Brigg's first edition on Coppers where he mentions and has photos of more than 20 different dies and the number was growing the more he looked. I will go along with that! In my book on Australian coins I listed 11 varieties but I was way off the pace. The most rare type of hub or die is the one where the "2" is way above the line of the rest of the numbers.
I looked at my little holding of coins and found three that are all slightly different and qualify for that description. There may have been a common hub that defined the broad position of the "2" and then possibly each die was hand punched to sharpen up the "2" impression thus giving the subtle differences.
I reckon Fig 3 is the winner in crudeness and best matches Briggs description of an out of line "2" possibly tilted to the right AND the distorted DOT after the A. Where you blow the image up, the dot is almost a triangle shape while the others are pretty round.

..........................................

Well I did my best which is obviously not good enough as I have only succeeded in putting the http links into the empty spaces.
The links then click to the images but of course what I want is the images imbedded for all to see at once not just a line of numbers!

Anybody like to tell me what I did wrong or did not do!!

Fred.

[quote pid='120452' dateline='1570335532']
autocoupler
[/quote]

Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='120505' dateline='1570755512'Just something from left field, would it be possible to find out the provenance of the highest graded circulation 1930 penny we know of? I remember just a few years ago, Downies or IAG auctions were at the Brisbane ANDA show displaying a high grade 1930 penny they had for sale, I viewed the coin and it was easily gEF+ IMO.

A coin of this grade would not have been in the system all that long, just a guess but twelve months at best, before being plucked from circulation, and wouldn't have had too many owners since. Do you think there is the slightest chance the provenance of a coin like this could be traced? If so, it sure would give an indication of when it was released.

Very difficult you would think,as any item received by a Dealer or Auction House has their provenance gilded so actual background may be lost in the interest of reward.  

I think you have to keep an open mind with the 1930,stating the obvious,as facts are few and far between,a UNC. Coin,or several,may turn up Tomorrow,"Toorak or Double Bay family selling keepsakes/heirlooms" or whatever,on that subject what happened to Kerry Packer's 1930's he collected in the 1970's ? 

As regards the 1930 Penny being released into circulation in the early 1930's,there is almost no chance that happened,probably less than 10%.A couple of good points about the matter make a lot of sense.There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.Accordingly it was a hot ticket item for a few years,Numismatic Society Members and Coin Club Members were sorting Thousands of Coins a Day,any 1930 Penny would have been quickly found.As an aside,someone back then probably ID that a couple of the 'dropped 1'  Pennies had a Indian Obverse so the identity of this Coin was probably known well before the Downie auctions of the 1960's. 
Similarly,the overdated 1933 Penny was also heavily sort back then until the Mintages became clear,accordingly most rearchers from the 1950/60's assumed the 1930 was not released in the early 1930's,most likely 90% sure,late 1930's possibly, but more likely during the Coin shortage of the early 1940's.   

My Brains Trust informant was born in 1930 and has had an interest in the Coin over the years,owning a couple back in the 1950's.He started collecting Stamps/Coins as a kid in the late 1930's and professionally from the late 1940's.He hasn't been involved since the 1970's but still maintains a strong interest and wants his views,on several pre-Dec. Coins and Mint related matters from back then in print before he dies.He's not looking for arguments or debates,just putting his views out there for others to discuss as he is sick of the rubbish and general misinformation that's been published over the last 20-30 years.

[quote pid='120511' dateline='1570776996']
Interesting debate and a touch of the John Farnham Farewell Tour -"this will be my last comment on this thread" or similar.

I have a question... The swap a penny when visiting the mint story has been around for a long time; is there any evidence that this happened with other than 1930 pennies, different denominations or was any sort of known practice? I have never seen it mentioned in respect of anything other than 1930 pennies. If there is no evidence of such a practice otherwise surely that would be strong evidence it is not true?
[/quote]

Yeah,its an interesting subject and as already Posted there are very few facts,especially 90 years later.

The 1930 Coin swap was the main theory for a while when i was at School in the 1960's and lasted well into the 1970's then a light went off with Numismatists,where are they?This was revived when the 3rd party graders started to gain momentum in the 1990's,where are the Coins?,nearly every 1930 Penny ID'd  was circulated to some degree and found after WW11.
IIRC the 'swap' theory came from a ex-Mint Employee interviewed in the late 1950's or early 1960's,if it did happen,statistics tell us it was one off or a handful at best.There may still be a UNC 1930 in Toorak.LOL.

I'm sure the Mints have swapped out Coins pre WW11 before but i can't think of an eg at the moment,there was a Post on a Stamp Forum about 20 years when we were discussing the 1930 Penny and i'm sure one of the Posters cited an eg. but someone on here may know for sure.

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120519' dateline='1570837801'Hi Auto, and everybody else, I typed out a little starter piece on the 1952 date differences and made up a word doc with three imbedded photos below. I tried a copy-paste of the doc in the reply box, the text dropped in ok but the photos did not stick.
I have run out of talent at this point, I have pix as .jps and can create doc or pdf files but am clueless as to how to paste in the .jpgs.
Can anybody clue me up with a simple way of doing this from the docs and jpgs I have?
Thanks Fred.

Hi Fred, I'm no guru with this stuff, but I would do as follows;

Make certain the pixel size of your pic is less than 1200, I usually go for 960.

Click on Gallery in top tool bar of forum.
Create an album.
Click on upload file.
Click on Select album.
Click on choose file.
The system will then allow you to select a number of picture files from your computer, then when the pic is uploaded, you can add details if you wish, then update.
Click on an image, where below will appear various file information.
Copy the forum linking code.
You can then paste that code into any post, presto, the image should appear.

Ah, thanks Auto, I will get a PC guru tomorrow visit me and go through the procedure you outline. looks like it has to be an internal linkage  only.
Cheers, Fred.

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='120520' dateline='1570838180'There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.

Source?

Hi Auto, i'm struggling ! check out my post #44, I only succeeded in putting in HTTP links.
Fred.

Easiest way is to use the forum gallery as suggested above. Make sure picture file size is less than 1MB. Works well with jpg files but may also be able to load other formats.
It is really simple -just try it.

Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='120525' dateline='1570928967'

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='120520' dateline='1570838180'There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.

Source?

Yes, that rumour seems spurious. There was about a million '31s struck with a mis-aligned date (and English obverse) so what difference does it make that an extremely small mintage was struck with the Indian as well.
As for how mis-aligned the date was it really isn't up there with the other bad dates (like the '24 florins mostly missing a chunk of the 4, the wide date pennies of 1915 and 1922 and of course the overdate threepence of 1922/21). 
Then there are all the rough surfaces and spurs on so many pennies, the ground off trefoils, the CBLs, the missing or very weak top scrolls, numerous die cracks that we all love (3 legged emu etc). Far too many crappy coins out there by 1931 for the mint to worry about a dropped 1.

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120519' dateline='1570837801'Hi Auto, and everybody else, I typed out a little starter piece on the 1952 date differences and made up a word doc with three imbedded photos below. I tried a copy-paste of the doc in the reply box, the text dropped in ok but the photos did not stick.
I have run out of talent at this point, I have pix as .jps and can create doc or pdf files but am clueless as to how to paste in the .jpgs.
Can anybody clue me up with a simple way of doing this from the docs and jpgs I have?
Thanks Fred.

I looked at my database and found I had about 100 off 1952 variety/errors listed and out of the 100 about 30 were date variations. Its many years since I collected these coins and my descriptions are based on the coin catalogues of the time that suggested there were about a dozen die types.
I know how wrong I was about this, particularly after I read David Brigg's first edition on Coppers where he mentions and has photos of more than 20 different dies and the number was growing the more he looked. I will go along with that! In my book on Australian coins I listed 11 varieties but I was way off the pace. The most rare type of hub or die is the one where the "2" is way above the line of the rest of the numbers.
I looked at my little holding of coins and found three that are all slightly different and qualify for that description. There may have been a common hub that defined the broad position of the "2" and then possibly each die was hand punched to sharpen up the "2" impression thus giving the subtle differences.
I reckon Fig 3 is the winner in crudeness and best matches Briggs description of an out of line "2" possibly tilted to the right AND the distorted DOT after the A. Where you blow the image up, the dot is almost a triangle shape while the others are pretty round.

..........................................

Well I did my best which is obviously not good enough as I have only succeeded in putting the http links into the empty spaces.
The links then click to the images but of course what I want is the images imbedded for all to see at once not just a line of numbers!

Anybody like to tell me what I did wrong or did not do!!

Fred.

Fred, Just flying by the seat of my pants with this, but I copied your pics into a word file then changed to a picture file and uploaded to forum how I explained previously.

Just looking at the numeral 2, except for the 2 in fig.1 which appears to be heavier or thicker through, the 2 in each pic looks to be oriented at the same height and angle to me.

When you say there is evidence of 20 or more dies, are you referring to die markers, but not differing positions of the 2 for example? 

I dug up a pic of my only right tilted 2 and included it at the bottom for comparison.   

Fig. 1
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/191/Freds_1952_1.jpg)

Fig. 2

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/191/Freds_1952_2.jpg)

Fig. 3


(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/191/Freds_1952_3.jpg)



Pointed serif 2 tilts right. Note the wavy top on the foot. Overall a finer font. Smaller dot after A in AUSTRALIA.

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1952A_Penny_rev__2_tilts_right.JPG)


Aligned pointed serif 2. Note the wave is less pronounced. Overall a slightly heavier font. Larger oval dot after A in AUSTRALIA.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1952A_Penny_rev__Pointed_serif_2.JPG)

Aligned pointed serif 2. Note the crook of the 2 turns back on itself more than the previous two examples. Large round dot after A in AUSTRALIA. IMO the 2 is same font as square serif below.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1952A_Penny_rev__Pointed_serif_2__Parent_of_square_serif.JPG)

Square serif. Note the crook of the 2 also turns back on itself, IMO the 2 is same font as pointed serif above. Large round dot after A in Australia.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1952A_Penny_rev__Square_serif_2.JPG)

Thanks Auto, I am a bit slow on the uptake with tech matters, promise to do better!
With the numbers of coining dies:  I estimate up to 100 dies may have been consumed at Perth, and those may have come from maybe 5 hubs. The hubs would give a commonality to the lots of coining dies so one would only expect maybe only 5 different appearances of coins , BUT, two other factors, 1/ the individual coining dies may have had work done on them to sharpen up the date by individual punching or even the last numeral entered by hand and not part of the hub impression, 2/ the working dies chip and splinter on those sharp points like the foot of the "2". Both of those mean the "2" may be in many positions and have many shapes particularly around the foot.
Thus the more I look at my 1952 coins, (as did David Briggs) the more you realise the variations are endless!
The figure of 20 is just a minimum depending on how finely you want to measure the position of the 2.
The 3 images you have saved for me are just 3 of what I would call "tilted" 2's where the 2 is patently out of line with other coins. but note they are subtly different. Fig 1 takes the cake for out of line. Note also there is a correlation about the DOT after the A. Briggs noted how the position and size of the dot changes and this should follow a HUB for surely they would not have been handpunching the dot onto each striking die? Anyway the more you look the more you see.
I have started an article on the 1952 Perth coin dates and my data base shows I have about 100 1952 coins in my "variety" collection. I'll be dragging all those out photographing them and then sitting down and coming to a conclusion after I join all the dots together. Your 52 has the "2" out of line and what I would have called a "tilted" 2. When you compare that with my 3 above you can see the differences in the position and tilting.
I have got a lot of research on my coins to do over this to be confident about anything, already I have photographed square foots and hook foots and serif foots and plain foots and wedge foots and uh-oh when you look closely they vary.....!
Veeery Interesting. Fred.

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='120531' dateline='1570946885'

Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='120525' dateline='1570928967'

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='120520' dateline='1570838180'There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.

Source?

Yes, that rumour seems spurious. There was about a million '31s struck with a mis-aligned date (and English obverse) so what difference does it make that an extremely small mintage was struck with the Indian as well.
As for how mis-aligned the date was it really isn't up there with the other bad dates (like the '24 florins mostly missing a chunk of the 4, the wide date pennies of 1915 and 1922 and of course the overdate threepence of 1922/21). 
Then there are all the rough surfaces and spurs on so many pennies, the ground off trefoils, the CBLs, the missing or very weak top scrolls, numerous die cracks that we all love (3 legged emu etc). Far too many crappy coins out there by 1931 for the mint to worry about a dropped 1.

Coin Dealers from that era Mr T.,you will have to wait for the Book to see who.

Neal,you love picking at my Posts buts that's Ok,that's what Forums are for.
The point regarding the 1931 was that it was heavily sorted and it is highly probable the Dropped Indian was ID back then,not by self appointed experts in the 1970/80's,and the main point was that any/some 1930's in circulation would have been surely found.
It is 90%+ sure they were released into circulation in the late 1930's,or more likely the early 1940's,that is not a proven fact,its the most likely scenario given almost every/all verified 1930's were found 1940's+.

Neal,as regards your research re the NS of NSW Newsletters,also search Meeting Minutes if possible,apparently there are Resolutions regarding the 1930 that didn't make it to the Newsletter.
Heyde was also on the Numismatic Society of Australia 'Verification Committee'  during the 1960's,they had their work cut out verifying 1930 Pennies(among other things) as the Fakes appeared so a look thru. their Newsletters could also prove fruitful.
Also,if not already undertaken,approaching Phil Downies Family could also prove handy as they would have access to his Records/Notes/Manuscripts etc.He started his Business in 1931 would have had a wealth of knowledge on the various Coins of the post 1930 period.I've been told he was quoted in Print in the 1960's as saying he never saw a 1930 Penny until the 1940's,probably in the Age but i will pay for the time and trouble if anyone can find this article.
As an aside our family Friend feels he was the Melbourne Agent for the US Coin Dealer buying 1930 Pennies in the 1960's as he had a couple of trips to the US at the time,Family may know if this was true and if he entered into Contra. deals with American Coin Dealers.  

Anyway that should give you guys plenty to pick at,this is the wrong Thread to be discussing the 1930 so my next Posts will be in a dedicated Thread,with a bit more detail,down the track.

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120536' dateline='1570996674'I have started an article on the 1952 Perth coin dates and my data base shows I have about 100 1952 coins in my "variety" collection. I'll be dragging all those out photographing them and then sitting down and coming to a conclusion after I join all the dots together.

Thanks for your thoughts Fred. In relation to something different, the pointed and square serif 2's, I have added a few additional pics to the previous post that would indicate at least three different pointed serif 2 fonts which includes the right tilted variety. One of these fonts seems to back up the theory that the square serif 2 is born from a die chip. Something for you to kick around. Cheers.

Love your work guys! Fair dinkum! :good:

Thanks Auto i'll devote a couple of hours a day this week and get all the 52's I have categorised, a fresh start. Yes I recognise your coins "2" state and shapes. Must come up with descriptors for the serifs that cover all the possibilitys. Square serif is a given, then I have wedge and tooth and hook but as you point out there are the in between ones. I'll do my best!
Fred.

Hi Basil
I pick at EVERY posters posts as I'm a pedantic bugger (used to proof read scientific papers when I was a CSIRO lab tech) and I pull apart many of Freds papers, critique David Brigg's tomes and generally enjoy researching the minutiae of pre decimal coins.
Even a major dealer such as Downie might not have come across a 1930 penny in the 1930s if they were initially released in another state (Glenelg in SA was the earliest find recorded in 1938)  and took a few years to move outside the local area. Melbourne in 1940 was the next recorded example (and that was only a record of where the museum official was, the specimen could have been found anywhere). Dave Raymond (Sydney) was the next record with about 10 passing through his shop after he put out an ad to buy them. During the war did the societies even operate as usual as a shortage of paper and everybody being busy would have made such a leisurely pastime something that very few would do so the knowledge of the existence of circulating 1930 pennies would barely be passed on. 
Also it is possible that others were found before the Glenelg example  but if the collector wasn't a coin society member he (she?) would be unlikely to report it. Not unlike the 1916 mule that was found in the early '30s but not reported until 1965. Remember until Owen Fleming started a society in the 1940s (NSNSW) for common folk like himself the coin societies were mostly snooty places run by gentlemen such as Dr Abbott and frowned upon the lower class of coin collectors such that few people joined the societies. For example my copy of "Rules of the Numismatic Society of Victoria" (1917) refers to Ladies and Gentlemen as members and requires prospective new members to pass a four-fifths vote and pay 7/6 annually (with that crossed out and 10/6 written). That was a full days wage back then (stats show the average weekly wage for men in 1914 was 46/9 in Victoria) so it kept all but the well off from joining.
Also sometimes a variety is recorded but for some reason is then forgotten, this was in part due to the societies going into hiatus during the Depression and those with the knowledge often dying in the meantime. Look at how many varieties were recorded in society journals and other publications in the period 1919-23 that were then forgotten. This includes the CBL/FBL types of 1919/20, the Double Dot of 1920 and the 22/21 overdate that Heyde fails to mention in his 1945 book. So perhaps somebody did mention having a 1930 penny in the 1930s but if nobody recorded or investigated the fact then we will never know. Likewise did anybody prior to Dean's time mention the existence of English/Indian obverses or mention that 3 different reverse masters existed for Geo V?
Coin varieties can also circulate for decades before their existence is known, this includes the 1919 double Dot, the 1920 Dot Above Top Scroll and the 1920 Dot Above English; so if nobody knew that the 1930 penny was in circulation then nobody would be looking for it (and how many noodlers were active in the 1930s until the end of the war). Until about 1961 a 1930 penny was only worth 3-4 pounds so noodling was still only a modest affair such that most 1930 pennies were still in circulation and then found in the period of the boom.

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='120545' dateline='1571044661'Hi Basil
I pick at EVERY posters posts as I'm a pedantic bugger (used to proof read scientific papers when I was a CSIRO lab tech) and I pull apart many of Freds papers, critique David Brigg's tomes and generally enjoy researching the minutiae of pre decimal coins.

No worries Neal,i enjoy this Forum and have learnt a lot over the few years its been going,moving on from the 1930 for the time being,Mods have been very good,surprised they let it go this long but i'll start a dedicated Thread down the track for anyone interested.
I would like to get at Phil Downies records/books,dates when certain years/varieties etc. first appeared,purchased direct or listed for Auction but as a Neville Nobody it would take someone who is known to the family or at least have some standing in the Coin Community to research it all.

Auto, that estimation of dies of mine used for the 1952 pressing was a bit off! The bit of my brain that has not succumbed to senility remembered that Paul Holland did a forensic job on the 1952 Perth Mint pennies and lodged a Journal paper. I had downloaded this many years ago and filed it in my library. I am now reading this and am humbled. Paul does a masterly work on the Dies and tooling and  in correspondence with Anthea Harris  they found at least 7 master dies and 210 reverse dies initially and on further study of the mint records upped that to a total of 300 (page 26).
Paul gave a pretty good summing up of the die types and the 2's used and settled on 6 types (table page 35) and felt that anything else was a distortion of die or strike. his discussion then goes on for pages regarding  coins reviewed and concludes with a summary (page 38). He acknowledges the help  of Anthea Harris, the Perth mint and Mike Locke in presenting the paper. There is also a References List and the names Harris, Mills, Dean, Skinner, Clarke, Hanly, Sharples and Greig are mentioned.
The paper is so well researched that any hapless scribe as myself should read it before opening their mouths. I am.
This means that there may be dozens of variations discernable to the eye to do with both the  2 and the Adot from the 300 odd dies used.
Fred.
PS at the moment I cannot tell you WHICH Journal the paper is in as I have not entered the source in my data base.
The paper was "Date Numeral Varieties of the 1952 Perth Minted Pennies" Paul M. Holland.
Got to be around 1998/2000.
Maybe someone can hit me on the side of the head and tell me.

Oh, thanks, it was the NAA, Vol 11 2000 and you can download on the NAA web site.
Fred.

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='120545' dateline='1571044661'Likewise did anybody prior to Dean's time mention the existence of English/Indian obverses or mention that 3 different reverse masters existed for Geo V?

I've wondered about this too - was there any mention of them prior to the 1960s?

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120548' dateline='1571194238'This means that there may be dozens of variations discernable to the eye to do with both the  2 and the Adot from the 300 odd dies used.

Thanks for the info Fred. Wow, 300 dies! There were over 12 million A. coins minted, I'm now wondering how many D type Melbourne reverses were used? Cheers.

Auto, a good old fashioned rule of thumb was to assume 50,000 coins per die.
In the earlier years dies could fail instantly or with a few thousand pressings, I think Melbourne  was much more organised by 1952 and die failure getting rare. So that would point to 250/500 or so. Perth used more because they were finding there way a bit.
Would need research on the press books and die registers in the Victorian archives, something I cannot do.
Fred.

Have made a few adjustments to perceived values. All comments most welcome.

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Forgotten_Penny_Major_Varieties.png)

The symbol > means greater than and the mintages for the '31 Dropped Indian and the '20 Dot Above English should have the < symbol.

Thanks for picking that up Neal.

A few adjustments 

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Latest_variety_values.png)

Keep up the good work Auto!!!

Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='120940' dateline='1576692013'Keep up the good work Auto!!!

...and from me,Thanks for making an effort to inform.

Thanks for the support uni and Basil. As you would already know, the figures are not exact and in reality will no doubt fluctuate either side of those quoted, but the main purpose of the exercise is to highlight the elevated value of these pennies when compared to the more common penny strikings of the same date and grade, but with different dies. 

The key thing for people to remember, is to be informed about the differences.

A few minor changes. There was one anomaly where a recent auction sale of $1800 + commission on a $200 estimate was recorded for a two coin lot consisting of a 1957Y. normal date and 1957Y. wide date, both graded by PCGS as MS64RB or CHU.

Don't know if it was the result of a bidding war between two bidders, or a pre sale top bid by an internet bidder who desperately wanted it, which was thrown straight on the floor when the live session commenced.  

It all becomes clearer when looking at the population report, the wide date is the highest graded but, the total number of graded 1957Y. pennies is just 22, so early days. 

In light of this a smaller adjustment in value was recorded, but who knows?

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Unpublished_Penny_Major_Variety_Values_8.png)

Thanks Auto. Please continue your updates as you see them fit!

The market for these varieties is a bit fickle at the moment.
My 2 cents worth - I'd value the 1952 pennies slightly higher.
ie UNC examples of the square ,wedge and tilted serif.

Yeah Nobles practice of letting everyone know the top bid during the auction is a shocker.

Thanks for the input echidna, your knowledge adds to the credibility of any list such as this. Now that you've mentioned it, I do remember the recent sale of a right tilted 2, 1952A Melbourne reverse graded AU50 which I recall sold for $200. I will make the appropriate adjustments.  :good:

"JEEZ'' $1800.00 + 22% buyers com=$396. Plus 10% gst on com price=$39.60.Plus postage $15.00... All up $2,250.60....And if you bid through Invaluable they slug you an extra 5% on top..I placed a early pre-auction bid on a 1948y pcgs 63rb penny for $1200.00 with Nobles and it sold to a Invaluable bidder for the same amount???..

Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='122065' dateline='1586912184'I placed a early pre-auction bid on a 1948y pcgs 63rb penny for $1200.00 with Nobles and it sold to a Invaluable bidder for the same amount???..

How does that work? Your bid would have been first in line and should have won, you would think.

Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='122070' dateline='1586944671'

Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='122065' dateline='1586912184'I placed a early pre-auction bid on a 1948y pcgs 63rb penny for $1200.00 with Nobles and it sold to a Invaluable bidder for the same amount???..

How does that work? Your bid would have been first in line and should have won, you would think.

Nobles Terms + Conditions..The highest bidder shall be the purchaser...The Auctioneer shall be the Sole Judge of who was the highest bidder..Two bids of the same amount,but the live Invaluable bid included a 5% buyers commission. Could be that?.The Invaluable site says SOLD-$1200.00 and nobles site shows item not sold???...As for the person who got hit with the $1800 bucks, i always thought that the item sold for the next lowest bid...Unless your max bid is the only bid... :scratch_one-s_head:

Extreme buyer beware with any Auction especially on the Internet,he says stating the obvious.
Whilst at School i worked for a 2nd hand dealer during School Holidays and W/ends.,he dabbled in everything and got the Coin bug in the early 1960's when clearing out Homes but Monthly Auctions was his go,many items above the rubbish level were already sold to his fellow Dealers/Cronies and regular Customers(he had a book with who collected what),and only listed to get Punters in the door thinking they might get a bargain.
After 30 years in the Business he was correct,although missing out on what they came for with the Cockatoo's active they usually purchased something whilst there thinking it was cheap or a bargain.
Jungle out there,Ebay has proved that.

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='122079' dateline='1587010096'Extreme buyer beware with any Auction especially on the Internet,he says stating the obvious.
Whilst at School i worked for a 2nd hand dealer during School Holidays and W/ends.,he dabbled in everything and got the Coin bug in the early 1960's when clearing out Homes but Monthly Auctions was his go,many items above the rubbish level were already sold to his fellow Dealers/Cronies and regular Customers(he had a book with who collected what),and only listed to get Punters in the door thinking they might get a bargain.
After 30 years in the Business he was correct,although missing out on what they came for with the Cockatoo's active they usually purchased something whilst there thinking it was cheap or a bargain.
Jungle out there,Ebay has proved that.    :i_agree:  If the item is from a Vendor it's described as just an UNC..If it's owned by the auction house it's described as Crisp,Fresh,Superb UNC...One of the finest known...Blah Blah Blah...The best I've seen in 10 years...More blah blah blah  There just modern day snake oil salesmen... :sun_bespectacled:

Just an update on a couple of pennies seen in the market over the past six months or so.
1920 English obverse, dot above bottom scroll. VF20 (Fine), $3,250
1930 English obverse, XF40 (VF) advertised at $95,000. Unknown if it sold or not.
1931 Indian obverse, dropped 1. VF30 (Fine to good Fine) $3,750
 
As always, the values listed below are only a guide and should not be relied upon. The main point of the exercise is to highlight to the uninitiated that these scarcer to rarer coins most probably will not be found in current guides. 

 (https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/191/Unpublished_Penny_varieties.png)

Nice work Auto! Good to see you keeping up to date! :good:

Cheers uni  :thank_you:

Who sold the 1920?

Hope they don't mind me saying but, that would be our hosts, The Purple Penny

Ah right - I don't often check their stock so I missed it.

After a few recent sales and auctions I thought it time for an update.

There were a couple of 1931 Indian obverse pennies with aligned date, as well as one dropped 1 type.

The 1931 dropped 1 Indian was a fairly ordinary about fine IMHO, with edge knock and an obvious patch of verdigris, but still made $1830 after commission.

One 1931 aligned date was ex the Benchmark Collection in a slab and graded AU55, and made around $2150 after commission.

The other aligned 31 was in a PCGS slab graded AU53 which was described as aEF. It made $560 after commission. 

There were also a couple of 1953 sans serif 5 pennies in slabs graded AU55 and 58, around gEF in the old scale IMHO, which each made about $100 after commission.

Also a 1922 Indian obverse penny in a PCGS slab graded AU55 and described as gEF which made $220 after commission.
    

As always, the values listed below are only a guide and should not be relied upon. The main point of the exercise is to highlight to the uninitiated that these scarcer to rarer coins most probably will not be found in current guides. 

(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Unpublished_Penny_Major_Varieties.png)

Great work Auto! Thanks for the updates

Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='124594' dateline='1616886088'Great work Auto! Thanks for the updates

+1,good to see Auto keeping the Forum ticking over.

Thanks Auto.

Cheers Auto, :) Keep up the great work

Nice work, only thing lacking is there are no table headers. I know the first one is estimated numbers known but the others are unspecified grades (maybe good, VF, EF etc) or are they numerical ratings (VF35, AU50, MS64 etc)?

When I copied the document for loading onto the forum, in error, I didn't include the header. Should read, VG - Fine - VF - EF - aUNC - UNC - CHU.

Thanks all for the encouraging words

Good work auto!
The 1929 Indian caught my attention  with a low mintage compared to the English.
David Briggs and other collectors  give the ratio of Indian to English as about 50/50.
That opinion comes from actual observation over thousands of coins and decades of collecting.
However,
I went over my notes when cross referencing the Mint  information from Sharples/Mullett/Holland et al.
The best  indication comes from the hub types available at the time and to simplify it all:
There were successful obverse dies from the 1916 and 1921 (indian and english) master hubs in the press room during the first strikings of the 1929 job.
So a number ? of coins would have both types of obverse.
At some point during striking they exhausted the 1916 strain dies and to finish the job off they chewed through last dies from the English hub (1921) strain.
There were a fresh lot of 1916 source dies ready out of the oven but they were not required as the 29 job was completed.
These dies then featured in the 1930 and 1931 jobs.
So, clearly there were both obverse types were used, and maybe there were less Indians than English.
As no count was ever made of what type of obverse die produced what number of coins it is impossible to know exactly so it is BEST GUESS!
Closely counting the number of coins struck per die pairs used came later post 1930 , the 1929 strikings were chaotic as dies failed without warning.
The job then was just to bang away in the presses and replace broken dies as they  broke with whatever the toolroom could muster up.
Must have been real fun, dozens of dies never even got to the press room, some failed during hub pressing, some failed in heat treating or broke instantly when mounted up and run!
As making a die batch takes days of press, heat treat, and polish routines you can guess the press room was sweating on the tool room constantly.
Interesting times.
Fred.

Thanks Fred, also for your interesting info. To be honest, I don't know much about these matters, I just pick up information where I can. 

Ebay is usually a handy source for estimating comparisons between die types. A survey of 1929 Indian v English might indicate something?  

The reference to a 50,00 mintage for the 1929 Indians came from commentary on the Bench Mark collection. Reference link as follows.

Benchmark Coin Collection (ngccoin.com) (https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/benchmark.aspx)

Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='124614' dateline='1617146712'Thanks Fred, also for your interesting info. To be honest, I don't know much about these matters, I just pick up information where I can. 

Yes,good to see Fred back into it with his knowledge.

I don't have great knowledge when it comes to the Oz Mints procedures/shenanigans either,in fact,TBH, i try to stay clear of it where possible but still interesting to read.

Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='124614' dateline='1617146712' A survey of 1929 Indian v English might indicate something?  

The reference to a 50,00 mintage for the 1929 Indians came from commentary on the Bench Mark collection. Reference link as follows.

Benchmark Coin Collection (ngccoin.com) (https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/benchmark.aspx)

I have scores of 1929 Indians and they are from many different dies. Now how is that possible unless I'm a fortunate bugger and would also require that each die failed after a few thousand coins to make only 50,000.Now whether the ratio of Indians to English is 50:50 is something I can only speculate on, perhaps in different states they issued different batches and that will vary the ratio unless you get a large random sample from every city and state. Plus the Benchmark Collection is a lousy reference full of factual errors :blush: , a glaring example is the claim that the '26 Serif Sixpence are the product of the proof die, yet I have examples from at least 4 different dies.

Just a casual test on the 1929 Indian/English ratio from my collection.
I have about 100  1929 of all grades and variety/error and the ratio of obverse type is about 50/50!
I never did try to buy 29's for the obverse type alone so what I have could be representative of the population.
Neal has a good point about release of coins by state area skewing the seeding of batch types.
I guess constant trading of coins across the country for 100 years  would tend to even "batch seeding" out.
Fred.

I had another trawl through the summing up of the press and die balance books by Mullett to see if I could glean a different view on the Indian obverses and the useage through the late 20's.
The problem is obverse dies are not dated, so a successful obverse  die may not have been destroyed at a dated years end as reverses mostly were.
Thus in the general scrimmage a die could be re-used year after year without being driven to destruction.
Mullett mentions one obverse die marked "130" that he thinks was made from a hub before 1927 (actual hub source unknown).
This was a 178 bead and appeared in notation as being paired with various reverses during 1929/1930/1931 pressing trials.
Therefore limited numbers of coins with "130" 178 bead obverses and sundry (pick a year between 1929 and 1931) reverses may have been good enough to chuck into the outgoing bag to join the weighing out and into circulation.
Sound familiar?
Fred.

Hi Fred, the leftover Indians were all done with by 1927 (a single die ex Sydney that was also used in 1924). So the 1929 Indians were all with fresh obverses. Now the number of English may include fresh dies and leftover dies and then the ??? is working out how many Old English, Fresh English and Fresh Indians were used in 1929.

The recent IAG auction had some varieties listed and sold as follows. Prices are inclusive of commission.

1920 dot below English obverse - MS63BN $17,690

1920 dot below English obverse - VF25 (gf-aVF) $73

1921 English obverse - VF30 (aVF) $67

1922 Indian obverse - AU58 - (aUNC) $110

1924 Indian obverse - VF30 (gf-aVF) $24

1927 Indian obverse - VF25 (gf-aVF) $92

1929 Indian obverse UNC/CHU $854

1943I Long reverse denticles - AU55 (gEF-aUNC) $232 

Interestingly, lot 1288 was a 1921 Penny with what appeared to be an English obverse but not described as such - aUNC $500. 

Some minor alterations have been made to the list, but as always, these values are a guide only and should not be relied upon as fact.
 
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/penny_varieties.png)

Oh nice - I had that catalogue set aside to look at.