Was checking Edlins auction 199 results from August. Item 524 is described as a 1931 dropped 1 LONDON obverse graded gVF, described as rare in this grade and has a photo attached. The estimate was $1000, and the price realised was $750.....:shock: IMHO the price is way too high for a London obverse in gVF, and if there was an error in the listing, the prise was way too low if it was the Indian dropped 1 in that grade. Another thing to consider is that the photo matched the description:scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='60540' dateline='1412649858'Was checking Edlins auction 199 results from August. Item 524 is described as a 1931 dropped 1 LONDON obverse graded gVF, described as rare in this grade and has a photo attached. The estimate was $1000, and the price realised was $750.....:shock: IMHO the price is way too high for a London obverse in gVF, and if there was an error in the listing, the prise was way too low if it was the Indian dropped 1 in that grade. Another thing to consider is that the photo matched the description:scratch_one-s_head:
One graded AU55 by PCGS sold for $900 + BP at Downies auction 317 Lot 1505). Apparently hard to get in higher grades....
hum, just had a look at the photo
I have a few in that grade, maybe I should submit them ha ha
you never know what is going to be sought after in one auction , then the next ... no takers but you'd have to expect that (if it was that coin pictured) it was an inexperienced bidder
ps auto - if ever you are after an 'in the hand' opinion, I do sometimes go in to the viewings - lets' hope that we both aren't after the same item ha ha
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60560' dateline='1412671144'ps auto - if ever you are after an 'in the hand' opinion, I do sometimes go in to the viewings - lets' hope that we both aren't after the same item ha ha
Thanks RG....I think :biggrin:
well if i'd eye balled that 1931 1D - i'd have suggested it might be worth about $45- $55 and bidded to $60 absolute max on your behalf
so it might be O.K.
as long as you aren't after the precious and rare 1964 penny or halfpenny, you should be safe ha ha
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60566' dateline='1412672369'as long as you aren't after the precious and rare 1964 penny or halfpenny, you should be safe ha ha
Speaking of which, I got a ripper 1964M penny off a dealer that was taken from a roll the other week. But I suppose M's are no scarcer than 1931 Londons, and everyone has there own gem :yahoo:
enjoy!!
pics would be great
I can never see too many of that year
nope - the 1931 is far scarcer & a GEM 1931 , well, even I concede that would be just fantastic over a 1964 penny any day (if it were mine mind you)
source - MACCA'S DEVINE COIN REFERENCE FIGURES
1931 Penny ------------494,000
1964 Penny M------10,000,000
1964 Penny P------ 54,590,000 (note - there's 1 Melbourne for every 5 or so Perth pennies)
PS Auto
I just checked Edlins unsold listing and that penny was unsold with a buy it now reserve of $750 - unless you have found out since that it has been sold
http://www.edlins.com.au/Unsold_list_internet.pdf
Phew RG.....sanity prevails. I misread the unsold sheet to be prices realised. My skill with the pics sure doesn't rate when along side some of you guru snappers. The pic was taken through the saflip so there's reflection and uneven colour. In the hand it is very much the lighter colour, and very even.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2678.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2679.JPG)
no argument from me
you have got yourself a smashing GEM there possum
absolutely beautiful (to moi)
if it's lighter then it might be one of those golden red ones?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60577' dateline='1412678477'if it's lighter then it might be one of those golden red ones?
We're right off topic now, but as you pointed out earlier RG, the original subject wasn't 100% correct. Anyhow.....yeah, I saw most of the coins from that roll, and all were the same. I'm not pushing anyone's barrow, but Vic at VP coins had them. There was one which was better than the rest, which he had graded as gem and carried a higher price.
Australian 1931 Dropped 1 Indian Obverse Die Penny is one of rarest variety pennies,the London die is different
I shall have to dig my ^^^^one^^^ out and post a picky.
I would like other peoples opinion on it.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='60685' dateline='1412822269'I shall have to dig my ^^^^one^^^ out and post a picky.
I would like other peoples opinion on it.
I'd love to see it Goldy they are rarer than a 1930 penny
There is a photo/scan of the Obv. on here somewhere,not sure which Thread,there is a unique dot you use to ID them.
Quote from: 'runway' pid='60739' dateline='1412863771'Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='60685' dateline='1412822269'I shall have to dig my ^^^^one^^^ out and post a picky.
I would like other peoples opinion on it.
I'd love to see it Goldy they are rarer than a 1930 penny
If I have it here at home, I shall scan and post it this weekend.
I couldn't find the Thread i wanted but here is a Dropped 1 Indian on Ebay,nice grade but a bit pricey at $4000 thou.
I've been looking for one of these since the 1960's,i read an obscure article about the 1930 Penny and the Author stated at the end these(D1 Indian) were rarer than the 1930,that got my attention at the time.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-1931-KGV-1d-Drop-1-Indian-die-VERY-RARE/173751637339?hash=item287467955b:g:LDkAAOSwiKdcRJ9v
That coin was unsold at the last Status International Auction at $3000 plus commission, and is obviously still available. Not sure what their commission rates are, but it may be cheaper to buy from the Status site as opposed to ebay, no doubt they have factored in ebay charges.
Yeah,it looks similar to the one that sold on Ebay about 2-3 years ago for around $2000,i commented on it in one of the Threads here but can't find it but have the downloaded Ebay Pic. on one of my Computers somewhere.
The Rim ripple/damage under the Date rings a bell unless i'm getting my Coins mixed up.
I thought the price seemed okay - condition is decent enough overall (besides the couple of edge bumps).
Whilst i've got them out this is a scan from Coin World Nov.1966,over the years several self appointed Coin experts laid claim to having ID the scarcity of the 1931 dropped Indian but it was well known as a rare variety when i started collecting in the early 1960's but it got swamped by the interest in the 1930.
Downies had one for sale for $80,the 1930 around that time was around $300-500+ and most Sydney dealers seemed have 1 or more for sale despite the scarcity.
Around this time a large USA based dealer used his Sydney Agent to buy almost every 1930 available so the price almost doubled every year in the late 1960's.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/IMG_0002~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/IMG.jpg)
Well done Basil! Thanks for posting that. :good:
Thanks Uni,i went thru. all my copies again on the W/end looking for the article on the 1966 Proof Sets,couldn't find it but i never threw anything out over the Years so it will turn up eventually,probably when i'm looking for something else.
IIRC they were way over Budget with the 66 Proofs which caused production dramas of some kind as well as cheaper packaging.
Nice - thanks Basil - Kilkenny is only a couple of K's from here
Who Kil'dkenny? :laugh2:
[font='Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Geneva, Arial, sans-serif](https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/kenny.jpg)[/font]
Quote from: 'Robster' pid='118287' dateline='1548189099'Nice - thanks Basil - Kilkenny is only a couple of K's from here
Gee ,i can't believe the Business is still going 50+ years later.
I did post a pic a few years ago - 'Trident' Books Coins and Ephemeral - Hey Uni - I would expect nothing less xxx.
Adelaide was in the News over here a couple of Weeks ago.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-04/obscure-coin-laws-that-made-a-petrol-station-refuse-service/10685290
Killkenny is also like a cheap bailies cream , lovely drink , trust me .
Also Killkenny timing and rocker and air cleaner covers for Holden 253-308 V8. Makes em go faster. Lol...
I saw an ad during the week - M.R. Roberts in Sydney has three of these in various conditions for sale at the moment.
I see he has the 31 Dropped 1 Indian for $6,500.
https://www.wynyardcoins.com.au/shop/australian-pre-decimal-coins/pennies/australia-1931-dropped-1-indian-obverse-penny-variety-xf40/
Yeah that's one of them - the other two were cheaper.
Ok,i'll try and find them on his site.
When i was at School in the 1960's many of the Sydney Dealers had them for sale so i guess there were 10 or 12 around at any one time but they kinda disappeared post 1970's with the 1930 Penny attracting all the attention,making a comeback now with the Internet.
IIRC in the early 1960's they were around A£50,the same cost as a 1930 so an expensive Coin,but as i posted before the 1930 started doubling in price from the mid 1960's on so the 1931 Dropped Indian seemed to lose interest with the average collector from then on.
I saw them in what catalogue they publish.
But yeah, I guess it wasn't in Renniks so the dropped 1 Indian die faded.
Yeah I suspect you guys are right about the Renniks killing quite a few rare coins.
I've been rabbiting on for years about the 31 indian not being in the catelogs, you can all go and wonder why we have this ingrained brain washing in the coin industry:
if its not in the ( pick your choice of book) catelog it doesn't exist!
Goldie and Basil are correct, the older cats DID have the indian drop 1 31 in them.
Both Andrew Crellin and I have had a bash at describing how the coin came about, you have all read Andrews web site and my articles in CAB.
Most of our research is based on Mulletts notes on the die progressions from 1929 to 1932.
Regarding the number existing, I think a few more than realised, Klause Ford has nearly always had one on hand for sale, he knows what they are!
I have one, theres a couple for sale elsewhere so all we have to do is find the other 15!! I'm joking.......
When you read about the disaster the mint was having trying to get hubs and dies working for any length of time without cracking its possible only a couple of hundred got to the out bag into circulation with possibly only 20 or 30 known in collections. Yes I reckon there may be some in those big barrels of copper or unrecognised in collections................if its not in your catleog it does not exist!.......................................anybodies estimate is as good as mine.
Fred.
Bob Roberts told me about a decade ago that he had handled 50 of them over the years. The late Ian McConnelly had 2 (picked cheaply from dealers books), I have 1, Fred has 1 etc etc so they are rare (very rare), but not extremely rare. See at least 10 each year for sale, maybe a bit rarer than the 22/21.
'Echidna' has at least one as well and Posted Pics. on this Forum but the links are broken.
Wynyard Coins had 3 earlier this Month so they are out there.
This one is for sale on Ebay but has been ID by one of the Forums Dealers as an altered date.
All genuine Coins(so far) have a dot after the 'S' in 'GEORGIVS'.
Jungle out there.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Penny-Indian-Die-Dropped-1-Australian-Penny-EF-aUNC/192329446262?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/ebay_31_dropped_indian.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Indian_2.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Indian_3.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Indian_4.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/indian.jpg)
3 Genuine Coins. Die Marker after 'S'.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Die_marker_.png)
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='118592' dateline='1551137719'3 Genuine Coins. Die Marker after 'S'.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1931_Indian_Dropped_1_2.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1931_Dropped_1_Indian.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1931_dropped_1_Indian_reverse.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1931_dropped_1_Indian_Obv.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Die_marker_.png)
This is of course of interest to me having read so much and done so much work on the 1930/31 dies and punches.
I'm not taking sides just interested.
I took the ebay image of the coin in question and applied the same test procedure as I use with 1930's to determine which reverse hub it appears to be from. I count 174 rim beads. This, and the alinement of the ALIA indicates the coin has a 174 bead London die derivation.
So, that leads to a couple of questions.
1/ If the coin is a 'altered date' as suggested WHAT was the date on it before alteration?
Note that as far as I can work out the "London" style hub 174 bead was only used on 1924, 1927, 1929 and 1930 dated dies. (and the 1931drop1!)
So take a pick from those dates and tell me which was it before altering?
2/ The obverse. There were two "Indian" dies noted to be used in the "1931" pressings (A2B16-107 and A2B16-108) so possibly 2 types of Indian pressing may be seen. Also the die marker, the dot next to the S, is a PIT in the die that may or may not have always been there. Therefore a statement that "all drop 1 reverse, Indian obverses have the die marker" wont stand up in court. Some or most may have the marker, but not ALL. The only way you can say ALL, is to view EVERY coin to confirm that.
So, if a coin is to be called suspect because it may be "date altered"
1/ I want to know what date coin it was before that and how was the alteration done?
2/ Not all drop1 L+I may have the Sdot on the obverse, so that is not a proof of fakeness.
Somebody help me please.
Comments?
Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='118595' dateline='1551139484'Somebody help me please.
Comments?
Fred.
Its above my pay grade Fred !,all i can say is that so far all genuine Coins have the Dot after 'S' so i guess Dealers over the years have assumed that the original Obverse Die had this Pit/Chip when they started stamping the dropped 1 Reverse out.
Interesting Coin.
Do the curved base letters assist in that query Fred?
Hi Uni, i'm always carefull with those curved base letters and linking them with anything.
The whole problem is to understand WHY the bases curve and IF this occurs during the formation of 1/ the pressing of a hub from the master punch (assuming the master punch has flat bases) or, the pressing of coining die from a hub, OR the pressing of coins from the die!!
I have coins that have both flat and curved feet on the one coin!
Some very learned people have demonstrated HOW the curving does occur (Saxton) and do point out that curving can occur during the coin strike.
Thus we can have some coins of a one type with flat, slightly curved or real curved depending on how lots of things were happening at the time.
I reckon that curving happens for all sorts of reasons at all stages of a punch/hub/die/strike progression and its dangerous to say something like all coins of a type WILL or Must have a certain type of foot.
If a Master punch had curved feet then sure ALL the derivative hubs and dies WILL be curvy (unless by some miracle you get straightening!) but that's about as close as you can get to saying ALL of a type of coin WILL be curved/flat. Someday some researcher will do an intensive look at the subject but that needs looking at 10's thousands of strikings to get statistical satisfactory findings, not look at 100 coins and guess.
Fred.
Thanks for the Fred. There's certainly plenty of food for thought.
Hi Fred
The original penny was a 1929 Indian as the 4th bead (pearl) on the leading edge of the crown is slightly larger than the others (rules out 1924 and 1927 which was chipped) and for obvious reasons a 1930 penny isn't profitable to turn into a 1931. And as Eric pointed out the '31 is FBL.
Drake Sterling has one too at the moment I think.
I don't go seeking them out but it seems like there have been a few more for sale this year than normal.
Hi Neal, thanks for that, i'll do a bit more research on the types to understand the geographies a bit better.
I've just got this feeling that 2 obverse dies were involved at the time.
Yeah, fancy chopping a 1930 up to make a 31D1In !!!!
I guess with any questionable coin a close examination of the actual coin in hand and under the microscope to see if the 3 and 1 are glued on is the only was to be sure!
Fascinating coin and worth discussion.
Fred.
As there were 2 threads re this topic, I have merged both threads into this one, so the thread that was named High Priced.... no longer exists, but ALL the content is still in this thread in order by date of posting.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='118610' dateline='1551212920'I guess with any questionable coin a close examination of the actual coin in hand and under the microscope to see if the 3 and 1 are glued on is the only was to be sure!
Fascinating coin and worth discussion.
Fred.
Yeah,certainly an interesting Coin.
A few Red flags with the original Ebay listing,Pictures for a $15,000 Coin are a joke,the depression under the '31' and the inability to ID the dot after 'S' ,all are warning signs.
I'll state the obvious,the easiest way to fake one of these is to manipulate/adjust the '1' on an aligned Indian 31,the 'person' responsible for this one has gone to a lot of trouble with the donor Coin.
All that is assuming it is indeed a altered date coin and all the evidence so far seems to confirm that.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='118608' dateline='1551174099'Hi Fred
The original penny was a 1929 Indian as the 4th bead (pearl) on the leading edge of the crown is slightly larger than the others (rules out 1924 and 1927 which was chipped) and for obvious reasons a 1930 penny isn't profitable to turn into a 1931. And as Eric pointed out the '31 is FBL.
So is the current thought that:
A. The date (or a section thereof) of a 1929 Indian obverse penny has had removed and replaced with that of a 1931 dropped 1? or
B. Alternatively, have two halves of these pennnies been adhered together?
What about:
C. Images of two different coins have been used in the listing?
Good to see you posting Acrellin!
It's certainly an interesting one. Neal's info on the large bead certainly helps identify the obverse and I think Eric's observation of the darkness on the date area on the reverse suggests some "heat". Basil's first pic on page 4 seems to show a depression around the date area (especially to the right), which I feel gives Eric's altered date theory a firm foundation.
Thanks for all the thoughts I reckon that is about as far as you can go without examining the coin directly.
The point about multiple coins shown in a listing for one coin is well taken.
Fred Lever.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='118608' dateline='1551174099'Hi Fred
The original penny was a 1929 Indian as the 4th bead (pearl) on the leading edge of the crown is slightly larger than the others (rules out 1924 and 1927 which was chipped) and for obvious reasons a 1930 penny isn't profitable to turn into a 1931. And as Eric pointed out the '31 is FBL.
Here's a couple of 1929 Indians i found at short notice,scanner is playing up colour wise.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/IMG~0.jpg)(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/IMG_0001~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/coin_2_rev.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/coin_2_obv.jpg)
Thanks for the 29 scans Basil.
In the same spirit as my CAB article on the 1930 I'll do one on the 1931.
I would like any one with access to a L 1931 d1 I or a link to a good image of BOTH Sides of a single coin to send that to me via email or post. A high quality JPG or similar would be great. I don't expect to get as many replies as I did with the 1930!
But I would like to see as much of the type as I can.
Thanks Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='118651' dateline='1551570528'Thanks for the 29 scans Basil.
No worries,my good scanner won't work with Win 10 latest updates but i'll sort it when i get a chance.
I'm fairly certain 'Echinda' has a dropped Indian or 2 if you wish to contact him and Wynyard Coins apparently had 3 for sale a couple of weeks ago.
This is an ebay special from a few years back with it's cozzies off. :biggrin:
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Fred2C_1931_Penny_rev__Indian__dropped_1.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/Fred2C_1931_Penny_obv__Indian_dropped_1.JPG)
Thanks Auto!
Fred.
Nice penny Auto! :good:
These links have been posted before but i'll throw them in this Thread for further Info. down the track.
https://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/research/1931-indian-penny-dropped-1-reverse-less-1000-were-struck
https://www.drakesterling.com/sold-coins/products/1931-dropped-1-penny-with-indian-obverse-die
https://smallsauctions.com/the-remarkable-benchmark-1931-dropped-1-indian-obverse-penny/
Thanks Basil all leads help when researching a coin.
Fred.
Thanks for the great links Basil! :good:
I hate to bother people but i'm back on the 1930 penny!
Question: could we look at our 1930 pennys flip them over and check the obverse.
I just went through my research images and realised 2 of them have the Sdot on the obverse.
Yes that's the same Sdot we are talking about on the 1931!
How could I have missed that: answer because I was not looking!
I know the reason why its there just need a few more heads up to see how much of a percentage of 1930's used that same obverse die.
Cheers, Fred.
I would love to help Fred but one small problem...no 1930 penny here. I will get my pennies out and have a look what I have for 1931.
Hi Jeff, yeah it was a bit tongue in cheek, if it was a 1964 penny I would be sweet!
However I do realise that 1930 pennies are usually kept in secure storage and we don't have bucket fulls of them or keep them in the back pocket.
I'm focussing on the dies made from a hub that was made in the 1930's and now realise that Sdot will be on 1930 and 1931 pressings but should not appear on 1929, but i'm looking at all my 1929 Indians anyway.
Fred.
I just did a Google search and looked at 1930 penny photos. Some have the got and others don't including the ones on the downies website.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='118684' dateline='1551842801'I hate to bother people but i'm back on the 1930 penny!
Question: could we look at our 1930 pennys flip them over and check the obverse.
I just went through my research images and realised 2 of them have the Sdot on the obverse.
Yes that's the same Sdot we are talking about on the 1931!
How could I have missed that: answer because I was not looking!
I know the reason why its there just need a few more heads up to see how much of a percentage of 1930's used that same obverse die.
Cheers, Fred.
Wasn't there an article about this late last year?
Yes Mr T, Dr Peter Andrews did an article for CAB on the 1930 penny with the obverse dot just a few months ago.
Yep, Dr Peter sure did,CAB page 10 in Nov 2018.
I have just rolled it up and am standing here beating it across my head, veerryyyy slowly, whack.....whack.........whack.........stupid fred....read your cab's...whack..........whack...................WHACK!
Talk about slow......Peter has all the detail there, fully referenced, relating to the die types and much more than I could come up with.
I think i'll go and lay down, my head hurts.
Fred.
:laugh2: ..... Don't worry Fred, you're not the only one. I started a thread a while back about a new RAM issue that had been out for months! (still beating myself up).
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='118702' dateline='1551910213':laugh2: ..... Don't worry Fred, you're not the only one.
Yeah,same here,i'm only a hobby collector although a 50 years+ one,and don't have the memory or knowledge to get deeply involved in prec.Dec. Coins varieties and Die types but take an interest in the discussions since the Internet started.
After going thru my Books,Magazines and Newspaper articles i can't find the article i remember reading but someone on here may come across it in their research.
It was published pre Feb 1966,so 1963/64/65,it was an in-depth article on the 1930 Penny and in the last paragraph the Author mentioned the 1931 Dropped Indian,a Coin i had never heard of.
Its not word for word but IIRC he stated, "..to interested collectors out there the 1930 is not the rarest Aust. Penny,that title belongs to the 1931 Dropped 1 Indian Obverse,only a handful were minted before the Die broke and even fewer escaped the Mint,a Coin to look out for."
As i said that's probably not verbatim but an article/author well worth looking for in any research on the 31DI,it was probably a Coin ID when researchers first started on the 1930.
:laugh2: You're doing better than me Fred, at least you could find a copy. I think I'll head down to the train tracks and flatten a few pennies :huh:
That was a favorite past time when I was a frivolous teenager. Wonder how many rare coins were trashed that way :dodgy:
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='118704' dateline='1551913597'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='118702' dateline='1551910213':laugh2: ..... Don't worry Fred, you're not the only one.
Yeah,same here,i'm only a hobby collector although a 50 years+ one,and don't have the memory or knowledge to get deeply involved in prec.Dec. Coins varieties and Die types but take an interest in the discussions since the Internet started.
After going thru my Books,Magazines and Newspaper articles i can't find the article i remember reading but someone on here may come across it in their research.
It was published pre Feb 1966,so 1963/64/65,it was an in-depth article on the 1930 Penny and in the last paragraph the Author mentioned the 1931 Dropped Indian,a Coin i had never heard of.
Its not word for word but IIRC he stated, "..to interested collectors out there the 1930 is not the rarest Aust. Penny,that title belongs to the 1931 Dropped 1 Indian Obverse,only a handful were minted before the Die broke and even fewer escaped the Mint,a Coin to look out for."
As i said that's probably not verbatim but an article/author well worth looking for in any research on the 31DI,it was probably a Coin ID when researchers first started on the 1930.
Just my humble opinion..The 1931 dropped one indian obverse penny is harder to find than a 1930 indian obverse penny. The Rarest off all pennies would be the 1930 London obverse. :angel:
When I secured my 1931 Dropped "1" Indian Die, I was informed that they "didn't exist".
However I am now led to believe that they are as scarce as hens teeth and mintage is as low as 50 coins.
Any mintage figures different would be interesting.
Try finding a 1920 dot over lower scroll with a London obverse. They are as scarce as a honest Parramatta road car salesman...
I think you are correct but when that article was written in the early 1960's the 1930 London did not exist AFAIK,similar with the Perth 1920 DALS,we can also throw in the 1937 .
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='118730' dateline='1552107491'When I secured my 1931 Dropped "1" Indian Die, I was informed that they "didn't exist".
However I am now led to believe that they are as scarce as hens teeth and mintage is as low as 50 coins.
Any mintage figures different would be interesting.
Apparently,if what i read over the years is correct,no Mintage figure was recorded for them so who knows.
However i think the Mintage figure would be in the hundreds for Dealers,both in Sydney & Melb., to get their hands on them on a regular basis when the word was out in the 1960's.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='118736' dateline='1552129817'I think you are correct but when that article was written in the early 1960's the 1930 London did not exist AFAIK,similar with the Perth 1920 DALS,we can also throw in the 1937 .
Also the 1919 double dot and i did see a 1946 K.G for sale buy IAG auctions for the Benchmark collection.. also Triton Numismatics say the 1920 DALS London obverse was minted in Sydney?. The workers at the mint in 1920 must have been drinking a lot of VB as there are Eight types of 1920 penny..LOL..
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='118738' dateline='1552131466'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='118736' dateline='1552129817'I think you are correct but when that article was written in the early 1960's the 1930 London did not exist AFAIK,similar with the Perth 1920 DALS,we can also throw in the 1937 .
Also the 1919 double dot and i did see a 1946 K.G for sale buy IAG auctions for the Benchmark collection.. also Triton Numismatics say the 1920 DALS London obverse was minted in Sydney?. The workers at the mint in 1920 must have been drinking a lot of VB as there are Eight types of 1920 penny..LOL..
Plenty of the 1919 DD's around,i read an article where the 1920 EDALS was part of a trial run by the Perth Mint in 1921 before they started knocking out 1921 Indian Obverse Pennies.
No argument with the beer, that may have been responsible for the 1931 dropped 1 :biggrin: , but AFAIK there are only 7 types for the 1920 penny. What was thought to be the no dots with English obverse, is strongly suspected to be a filled die of the dot below bottom scroll with English obverse type. There are several known key die markers in various combinations that are present on both, and I've seen quite a few 1920 pennies advertised as being a Plain English, but all have exhibited a die marker for the dot below English.
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='118735' dateline='1552128968'Try finding a 1920 dot over lower scroll with a London obverse. They are as scarce as a honest Parramatta road car salesman...
I have a few :whistle2:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='118740' dateline='1552137480'No argument with the beer, that may have been responsible for the 1931 dropped 1 :biggrin: , but AFAIK there are only 7 types for the 1920 penny. What was thought to be the no dots with English obverse, is strongly suspected to be a filled die of the dot below bottom scroll with English obverse type. There are several known key die markers in various combinations that are present on both, and I've seen quite a few 1920 pennies advertised as being a Plain English, but all have exhibited a die marker for the dot below English.
There are 7 types that are easily identified
1920 No Dot
1920 Dot Below
1920 Dot Below English obverse
1920 Dot Above
1920 Dot Above English
!920 Double Dot
1920 Dot over Top
in addition several of the above may be identified as from different hubs including the 1920 Dot Below CBL, 1920 Dot Below CBL paired with the Indian hub supplied direct from London (1921) and several derivative hubs made in India. Also the English obverses are likely to be from 2 different hubs (one from 1919 and the other 1922 with the 2 Dot Below pairs probably struck in Melbourne and the Dot Above probably struck in Perth, though there remains the possibility that they were struck years later in Melbourne when they were testing die steels and hubbing). Also there are rim differences between Dot Above Indians struck in Sydney and those later struck in Perth. At this stage I cannot definitely determine which No Dots are Melbourne struck and which are Perth struck but will get around to it when time permits.
A couple more links for future Ref.
As usual i'll try and find the article where it stated the Perth Minted 1920 DABS in 1921 had the English Obv. This article seems to state they all had the Indian Obv. but may be wrong or partly wrong.
Quote..."The 93,600 pennies struck as part of the experimental production run at the Perth Mint in December 1921 therefore all featured the Indian obverse, and were either dated 1921, or were dated 1920 and had a plain reverse, or were dated 1920 and had a dot above the bottom scroll on the reverse. These coins were delivered to local banks on December 16th, 1921. The Perth Mint archives contain a reference that "Christmas demand influenced the currency need" of the local banks in Perthxxiii."end Quote.
https://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/research/1922-specimen-penny-one-very-first-copper-coins-struck-perth-mint
https://smallsauctions.com/the-rare-1921-english-obverse-penny/
http://www.vision.net.au/~pwood/nov07.htm
The 1920 DABS London Obv. Could have been struck at the Perth mint, as Melbourne had the London Obv and Sydney had the Dabs Rev and both mints sent these to the Perth mint in the same year.
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='118757' dateline='1552267540'The 1920 DABS London Obv. Could have been struck at the Perth mint, as Melbourne had the London Obv and Sydney had the Dabs Rev and both mints sent these to the Perth mint in the same year.
Yeah,its a theory,it was in a article i read about 10 years ago where the author was more than 50% sure it was a test run at the Perth Mint but in reality who knows.
Researchers and interested Numismatists have been having a close look at Die types since the Coin was found in 2003.
The key is probably the Royal Mint Dies sent to Perth when the cry went out but they arrived Months after the Melb. & Sydney Dies and the Perth Mint was already minting Pennies.
I try to stay out of indepth discussions on pre-Dec. Coinage as i just don't have the knowledge ,patience or memory to participate however i enjoy reading about it.
http://www.triton.vg/P20.html
Hi Basil
Yes, London sent out dies to Perth and just like all the early silver dies they probably punched in the dates individually (so all the wide dates are Perth struck from London supplied dies, accounts for why the coins were so well struck as London was much better at hubbing dies than Melbourne). And yes both Sydney and Melbourne sent over some dies and that probably accounts for the '22 Indians. Some day I'll take a closer look at the pennies of 1921 and '22 to see if the obverse from the Dot Above English had a limited usage.
Then again possibly Melbourne did a test strike in the late 1920s with either a die that never went to Sydney or a die that Le Souef brought back from the mint closure (just like the '27 Indian).
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='118763' dateline='1552297914'Hi Basil
Yes, London sent out dies to Perth and just like all the early silver dies they probably punched in the dates individually (so all the wide dates are Perth struck from London supplied dies, accounts for why the coins were so well struck as London was much better at hubbing dies than Melbourne). And yes both Sydney and Melbourne sent over some dies and that probably accounts for the '22 Indians. Some day I'll take a closer look at the pennies of 1921 and '22 to see if the obverse from the Dot Above English had a limited usage.
Then again possibly Melbourne did a test strike in the late 1920s with either a die that never went to Sydney or a die that Le Souef brought back from the mint closure (just like the '27 Indian).
Hi Neal...i would be interested at looking at scans of your 1920 DALSE Coins when you get a chance,the 2 egs on Triton look to be different Rev/OBV Dies.
Raynes Coin looks to have a 1919 DD type top Dot where the punch/pit/depression slowly enlarged and malformed as the Die aged which may mean its one of the old Sydney DALS Reverses.
I don't think the 1921 English Obverse is as rare as first thought back in the 1960's,i have picked up around 40 on Ebay the last 20 years,most of which were not ID by the seller or in bulk buys.
Hi Basil
None of my pennies have been scanned (Luddite here). I'll dig them out on Sunday and have a closer look but I think that they are all from the same reverse and they certainly from the same obverse. Raynes penny plus 2 others can be viewed in fairly high resolution over on the PCGS Population Report (the images blow up to about 2' across). And all 3 images show coins with likely the same reverse (none have die markers) and an obverse showing the same die markers. No die markers makes them very unusual for 1920 pennies as I have over 100 die pairings for 1920 where every die pairing has at least one marker and most pairings have markers for both dies. At least the obverse has good die markers (such as the line through the D). No visible die markers on those images doesn't rule out there being a faint die marker obscured by grime so I'll use the 15X to check mine. I think the dot on Raynes coin has been smeared in circulation making it look different.
The 1919 .//. is almost certainly Melbourne struck and possibly the first of the cloned dies. It shares an obverse with a FBL 1919 penny so likely the .//. was paired with the obverse after the other reverse .
For 1921 there were 4 die pairings if I recall correctly with the English obverse. None match the 3 obverses for 1920 and were probably all struck in 1922 after the new hub arrived.
One on ebay right now: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped-1-Indian-Die-Penny-aVF-Diagnostic-Die-Flaw-Visible/113769473155?hash=item1a7d306483:g:lcoAAOSw4cZc85Dp&frcectupt=true
Price seems good.
Yeah,that's Echinda's coin,or at least one of them.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='118608' dateline='1551174099'Hi Fred
The original penny was a 1929 Indian as the 4th bead (pearl) on the leading edge of the crown is slightly larger than the others (rules out 1924 and 1927 which was chipped) and for obvious reasons a 1930 penny isn't profitable to turn into a 1931. And as Eric pointed out the '31 is FBL.
Dear Neal, thank you for that very valuable observation about the 4th pearl. The 1924, 1927 are indeed ruled out. But I note that the 1929 is also ruled out due to the distance between the 1 and 9 in the date. The distance is bigger in the 1929 than in the Unicorn Penny. Also, the leftmost 1 has a pointy nose in the 1929 penny, whereas the counterpart 1 in the Unicorn Penny has a blunt nose. See https://sites.google.com/view/1931dropped1indianpennyvariety/home
Cheers!
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='118612' dateline='1551226720'Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='118610' dateline='1551212920'I guess with any questionable coin a close examination of the actual coin in hand and under the microscope to see if the 3 and 1 are glued on is the only was to be sure!
Fascinating coin and worth discussion.
Fred.
Yeah,certainly an interesting Coin.
A few Red flags with the original Ebay listing,Pictures for a $15,000 Coin are a joke,the depression under the '31' and the inability to ID the dot after 'S' ,all are warning signs.
I'll state the obvious,the easiest way to fake one of these is to manipulate/adjust the '1' on an aligned Indian 31,the 'person' responsible for this one has gone to a lot of trouble with the donor Coin.
All that is assuming it is indeed a altered date coin and all the evidence so far seems to confirm that.
Hi Basil, The only problem with that reasoning is the presence of curlicue lettering in the legend of the 1931 Unicorn Penny. See https://sites.google.com/view/1931dropped1indianpennyvariety/home
Since the 1931 aligned Indian penny has straight-based lettering, one would have to manipulate/adjust almost every letter in the reverse legend to create the Unicorn Penny. Considerably more trouble than you suggest!
But the obvious question is why go to the trouble of using a donor coin with straight-base lettering (the 1931 aligned Indian) to create the 1931 D1 Indian penny (which also features straight-based lettering) by altering the legend to feature curved-base lettering. Simply doesn't add up.
One on ebay right now: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped-1-Indian-Die-Penny-Diagnostic-Die-Flaw-Visible/113852223024?hash=item1a821f0e30:g:H9EAAOSwTsNdUopN&frcectupt=true
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='120052' dateline='1566021255'One on ebay right now: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped-1-Indian-Die-Penny-Diagnostic-Die-Flaw-Visible/113852223024?hash=item1a821f0e30:g:H9EAAOSwTsNdUopN&frcectupt=true
Yeah,i think Echinda has more than 1 of them,doesn't seem to Post here much anymore which is a shame as his knowledge is going to waste.
There's one in good condition for auction right now: https://www.smallsauctions.com/auction-lot/australia-1931-penny-indian-obverse-w-dropped-dat_21b47d986d?catalogRedirectURL=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smallsauctions.com%2Fauction-catalog%2FBest-of-the-Best-Australian-Pre-decimal-Coins_7YIA6WIRJI