I came across an interesting article on an American fb page about something called a Vickers Tool and a Vickers die test mark, a small Pyramid shape mark that appears in the fields of coins. "The pyramid shapes were the tip of the Vickers Hardness Tester that were pressed into the die.These test marks appear in Indian coins beginning in the 1930's." This info was borrowed from the site along with some pictures for educational purposes. More than one test mark could be used. This got me thinking about another article I recently read about the restrike proof 1942 Iand 1943 I pennies done in 1965 from India by mail order. There is a small die marker between the I and the back of the head, in the shape of a diamond. Diamond /pyramid shape. The reason wasn't clear for it. The Americans were using a die tester called a Rockwell Tester, a different style of mark. Pics below also borrowed for the purpose. Now this really got me thinking if the Americans and Indians were using these instruments did other mints such as ours and the english mints use them to. Next question to arise was if they did what would some of the coins be. First to come to my thoughts was the 1937 I dot crown, followed by the 1939 bar variety penny, possibly a multi test, the 1941 high dot beside the Y, and maybe the 1945 KG dot. This is just some thoughts as I only have limited access to records. So the question is did the early mints of Melbourne and Sydney use similar testers? Is there a list of workshop tools somewhere that were used at the Sydney and/or Melbourne mints available. Have been asked to share responses on an fb page if that is ok and are any to share. Thanks. :)
Borrowed Image of diemarker on the proof 1943 I restrike penny.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/P-18235dia_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0504.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0499_28329.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0484_28329.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0484_28429.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0489_28229.JPG)
I think Fred Lever postulated the 1919 and 1920 dots were from such a tool in article in the last few years.
Got a link to the article?
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0496_28229.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/DSCF0496_28329.JPG)
The Vickers Tester in question used by the Indian mint since the 1930's.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/Vickers_anvil_diamons_28229.jpg)
The Rockwell tester used in America. Definition: A Rockwell hardness tester is used to measure the hardness of metals in the U.S. Mint. It measures the depth of penetration of a steel or diamond-tipped pin relative to the applied force.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/USA_Rockwell_tester.jpg)
Ok thanks Mister T, will track it down
According to wikipedia the Vickers hardness test was developed in 1921 at Vickers Ltd as an alternative to the Brinell method. So not possible that the dots on the 1919 and 1920 pennies are due to the Vickers test (and Brinell used a 10mm ball of either steel or tungsten carbide so would be too big to make die marks).
The Rockwell hardness tester was patent applied for on 15/7/1914 and the patent approved 11/2/1919. So in theory they could have used a Rockwell tester to create the dots on the 1919 and 1920 pennies, however the commercialization of the tester didn't happen until the 1920s (plus would a branch of the Royal Mint buy equipment from the yanks?).
Interesting thoughts there Gnome. Some of the anomalies almost seem too perfect to be random.
Like this 1922 penny with a perfectly round dot above upstroke of N in PENNY
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Penny_L_FBL_Dot_above_second_upstroke_of_first_N.JPG)
And as you say, this 1945 big dot after KG
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2931.JPG)
And as you pointed out, the high Y dot, not perfect but does resemble the Vickers test tool somewhat!
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2723.JPG)
I did read something about a dot etc right in the middle of a die. Have to try and find it again, could take me abit, though.
That looks pretty much dead centre on the 22.
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='118448' dateline='1549780984'I did read something about a dot etc right in the middle of a die. Have to try and find it again, could take me abit, though.
Yes I've heard of these so called "centering spots" - someone from another forum "The Centering Spot is a small dot punched in the hub so that the design can be placed accurately"
I doubt that any dot was ever used on the centre of a die. For one thing you wouldn't be able to see it to centre the hub over the die as you cannot see through either the hub or the die to align the centres. If alignment marks are ever used they would be on the edge of the hubs and dies to for example align the second and third hubbing strikes used to impress new dies (and the failure to do so gives us the doubled legends and double nose queens that we variety collectors so love).
A couple of close ups of the dot above N.
What about a mischievous die room worker who wanted to record his time upon this planet for posterity, with just a light tap of a small round punch? :angel:
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Penny_L_FBL_Dot_above_2nd_upstroke_of_first_N.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_reverse__Dot_above_upstroke_of_1st_N_in_PENNY.JPG)
Hi All.
For Coin and Banknote dot references:
I did quite a few essays on coin dots for CAB, April 2007 on 1953 1/2d, May 2007 on 1946 1/-, Nov 2007 for 1940 to 1948 1d, Nov 11 for 1920 1d.
Neal Effendi and I did a series of articles on the 1920 penny including a large amount on the dots, about 6 in total between sep 2013 and mar 2014.
The clincher on the 1920 dots was my description of the Rockwell type of tester and that was in sep 2015.
I used a couple of forms of "Rockwell" tester in my workshop life, one was a Hydraulic unit, the other you whacked with a hammer! That unit was barely better than using a rounded punch and judging by eye the amount of disturbance to the test piece. The hydraulic unit at least had a gauge that was calibrated in R units, but really it was just a comparator rather than an absolute measure, there were just too many variables.
I never used a Vickers tester, it seems to be a much more sophisticated form of tester and much more accurate so long as the diamond is not damaged. My experience was in the much more rough and tumble manufacturing world where testing equipment was more abused and the tip used on the Rockwell could be damaged by the last guy and you could wind up with a groove rather than a dot. If nothing else read the Sep 2013 article for my observations.
Cheers All, Fred.
Good info there Fred ,,
I forgot to mention, Les at TOP END COINS has put a link to the text of the Effendi/Lever articles on the 1920 penny.
Drop into his web site and check out his blog articles, in the Bibliography of his 1919/1920 penny item, he has a link (7) that has a booklet I assembled, "1920 story" or somesuch. Save you ploughing through a bunch of magazines and you can print the lot off in one go.
Fred.
Finally tracked down the images of that centre circle/dot. They were on American coins and the info available is that it is uncertain what they are. A little different to Auto's one, however they are central on the coins, I believe. These aren't my pics, they are from the internet.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/20160207_2015-lathe-mark_opt-_3_.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/48645837.jpg)(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/48645755.jpg)
Great examples Gnome! :good: AJ would love the Bubbles!
Hi Auto, may I have your permission to use those 1922 penny pix? I must have another muse about those "centre dots" and draft up a coin article about it all.
Another question, does anybody else have an exactly same 1922?
In other words are we looking at an error on one coin or a die variety that shows on multiple strikings?
Fred.
Thanks Uni, :)
Sorry Fred, I haven't checked any 22's, but can have a look during the week if that would help. :)
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='119037' dateline='1554608553'Hi Auto, may I have your permission to use those 1922 penny pix? I must have another muse about those "centre dots" and draft up a coin article about it all.
Another question, does anybody else have an exactly same 1922?
In other words are we looking at an error on one coin or a die variety that shows on multiple strikings?
Fred.
Hi Fred, Feel free to use any image I have posted. Whatever the cause of the central dot on the 1922 penny, one would think there must be others out there?
Hi Auto, re pix thanks for that.
Yes unless its a one off hit with a cupped punch on the coin (look for a corresponding impact mark on the obverse).
If not that, then it may be a die chip and there must be as you say, others out there
I have a bucket full of 1922, surely I would have seen such a mark already, but I guess i'll have to tip them out on the table and go through them ...urrr...good hunting!
Fred.
:laugh2: know the feeling Fred.
I will go through my 1922's and have a squizz as soon as I can, not a bucket but have a few from memory.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='119053' dateline='1554696180':laugh2: know the feeling Fred.
I will go through my 1922's and have a squizz as soon as I can, not a bucket but have a few from memory.
I checked mine last night,24 in Total,and no dot.
I have more 1922 Coins in a bag somewhere,check them at a later time.
Good on ya Basil! :good:
I tracked most of mine down last night. I think the last time I went through them was with Auto's date work. He's probably closely examined more 1922's than most people.
From 181 that I could locate, I've found one which I'm sure is it. Will do some pics tonight and post them.
Gee I'd forgotten how good the die clash on some of these are ....... a work for another time. :winkextra:
Not sure what this is, could be part of the die clash it looks like there is on it.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/487/1922_Penny_L_FBL_Dot_above_2nd_upstroke_of_first_N.JPG)
That's interesting gnome, and hadn't noticed it before! Tonight I removed the coin from its saflip to take some more photos, unfortunately, it was before I read your post. By then I had put the coin to bed in a new saflip, but did have another look and took another pic through the holder. Hard to explain, but there is definitely something circular going on low down and just to the left of the E, doesn't jump out at you like it would if there was a surface anomaly, more like it's within the surface lustre if that makes sense.
uni, took some more pics as below, and came up with quite a few die markers that may be of interest to you, the reverse die in particular has had a hard life.
Fred, there is a reasonable close up of the obverse, but can't see anything abnormal that would indicate a cause for the central reverse dot.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_1.JPG)
Depression at lower inner circle and diagonal trench/die crack through date, as well as die crack at foot of second 2.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_2.JPG)
Could be post mint damage but looks like another trench between IA of AUSTRALIA
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_3.JPG)
Another pic of gnomes anomaly at bottom of E but pic not as clear as other photo. Also, another trench/die crack at bottom of M in COMMONWEALTH.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_7.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_4.JPG)
Close up of obverse but no obvious sign of something striking through that would cause the dot on reverse.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_6.JPG)
Elongated cud above E in GEORGIVS.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_Penny_centre_dot_reverse_5.JPG)
You've excelled yourself Auto ...... I actually have tears in my eyes.
Every single die marker that you've shown is present on mine, though mine is only a 6 pearl crappy coin.
What wonderful photos!!!!
I started to do some this morning with my little camera and the batteries went flat so they're on the charger.
Now I'm going to get my good one out to hopefully reply with some that come close to yours!!!!
On ya Auto!!! :good:
Thanks uni, it's great that your coin is showing all the markers, and proves there certainly are others out there. This particular coin displays the common left tilted 9 and has a English obverse, but the flat based lettering in the reverse legend makes it pretty scarce, about 3% of the total mintage. When you factor in the central reverse dot, I imagine they will be reasonably difficult to track down. :good:
Talk about up all hours eh!!
Well apart from the fact that my coin really really needs a good cleanse ........ and a miracle to save it from it's past life I got my good camera out and took some quick pics (yeah I rushed them ..... down to 30 pics rather than the normal 200 .... ahhhhh anxiety).
Summary
Auto: Depression at lower inner circle and diagonal trench/die crack through date, as well as die crack at foot of second 2.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_1.jpg)
Though the depression is not evident (perhaps a stikethrough) the inner beading has many common features (especially to the left), die markers indicated are a lovely match.
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Auto: Could be post mint damage but looks like another trench between IA of AUSTRALIA
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_2.jpg)
Though mine is full of plenty of PMD, yay the trench is not PMD .... exactly the same!!!
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Auto: Another pic of gnomes anomaly at bottom of E but pic not as clear as other photo. Also, another trench/die crack at bottom of M in COMMONWEALTH.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_3.jpg)
Very interesting .... there's a similar tag below the centre of the base of the downstroke of the E, along with the bottom leftmost of the E being weak. Same trench on the M!!!
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Auto: Elongated cud above E in GEORGIVS.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_4.jpg)
.... and there she be!!!
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Monty: .... oh and the dot ..... don't forget the dot! (nobody expected the dot!)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_5.jpg)
Seek and you shall find!
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_6.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/111/1922_1d_die_7.jpg)
Now that we have some markers I might look over my 1922s again (as some are pretty worse for wear for spotting the dot)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='119091' dateline='1554908728'Thanks uni, it's great that your coin is showing all the markers, and proves there certainly are others out there. This particular coin displays the common left tilted 9 and has a English obverse, but the flat based lettering in the reverse legend makes it pretty scarce, about 3% of the total mintage. When you factor in the central reverse dot, I imagine they will be reasonably difficult to track down. :good:
I've long wondered if the '22s with flat bases, as well as the wide 2s, were the bunch of dies sent to Perth from London.
Terrific photos guys!
Ok there are more than one coin exhibiting the middle dot, that pretty much excludes a one off punch effort.
I'm stuck on couple other projects at the moment and will have some more thoughts on the dot and draft up an article using info from this thread with your permissions.
Fred.
No worries at all Fred. :good:
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='119092' dateline='1554911147'Talk about up all hours eh!!
Well apart from the fact that my coin really really needs a good cleanse ........ and a miracle to save it from it's past life I got my good camera out and took some quick pics (yeah I rushed them ..... down to 30 pics rather than the normal 200 .... ahhhhh anxiety).
Excellent pics uni, and good to confirm the trench/die crack between I and A of AUSTRALIA isn't PMD.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='119093' dateline='1554920274'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='119091' dateline='1554908728'Thanks uni, it's great that your coin is showing all the markers, and proves there certainly are others out there. This particular coin displays the common left tilted 9 and has a English obverse, but the flat based lettering in the reverse legend makes it pretty scarce, about 3% of the total mintage. When you factor in the central reverse dot, I imagine they will be reasonably difficult to track down. :good:
I've long wondered if the '22s with flat bases, as well as the wide 2s, were the bunch of dies sent to Perth from London.
Yes, the quality of the wider date dies were much superior IMO. So too were the narrower date dies which displays the upright 9, all had much squarer rims and a central strike as well.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='119094' dateline='1554930238'Terrific photos guys!
Ok there are more than one coin exhibiting the middle dot, that pretty much excludes a one off punch effort.
I'm stuck on couple other projects at the moment and will have some more thoughts on the dot and draft up an article using info from this thread with your permissions.
Fred.
All good Fred :good:
Don't know what's going on with the system today? It wouldn't allow me to reply to all recipients in the one post :huh:
Coming back to Unicorns 22 with the dot in the middle.
That dot is not at the geographical center (centre) of the coin, so I doubt it is a left over from a machining sequence on a hub or die.
The vertical centre line of the die can be found by drawing a line through the centres of the scrolls and Uni's dot is a bit to the right of centre (center).
To check that I popped a scrap 22 in the lathe in the 3 jaw chuck spun that and noted the inner dot circle did not wobble meaning I had the coin "centred". Then I drove the tool into the coin paring out a circle. That center of that circle lay on the centre line of the scroll middles.
So Uni's dot thingy is just a die chip that fell into a place that drew attention.
We all have coins that are covered in dots, only ones that are near something get noticed!
Cheers Fred.
Thanks Fred ..... so would that also be the same in Auto's coins instance?
Hi Uni, yes all in the same place, so its a good "die marker".
If we had enough coins we may find a progression of shape and size.
I went through about 100 1922 pennies and found plenty of dots and lumps but only one with a faint "mark" at the same place. Trouble is mine are circulated and what I was looking at could just be another bump lump thing. If we could find more and demonstrate it as a progression we could call it the "Auto-Uni" die marker and sell them on ebay as a new unlisted variety...........only kidding.....
Fred.
:laugh2: ..... on ya Fred ....... (I've always considered myself to be a bit of an unlisted variety :winkextra: )
Yeah Fred, I always knew the dot wasn't in the center, I've drawn so many imaginary lines on the 22's for other reasons that to me it was too far to the right. What attracted me was the perfect circular like shape with a flat top or bottom whichever way you look at it. I'm still running with, "the deeds of a dodgy Mint employee who wished to leave evidence of his existence by whacking a die with a small flat bottomed punch". Well that's what I would have done, and I'm dodgy! :angel: :blush: :biggrin:
While doing some light reading came across this interesting bit of information from the Melbourne Mint. The report is dated 6th June 1935 from the Deputy Master of the Melbourne Mint to the Royal Mint in their yearly reports. The page goes on about some other purchases that previous year.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12047/512/page_110_a_vickers_pyramid_tester.jpg)
Nice find - is this from the Royal Mint's scans?
The inference being that until 1935 they had no Vickers tester and furthermore until then they had no definitive method to test hardness? Does that also mean that the other testing methods or devices that existed at that time such as the Rockwell were not at the mint?
Does it mean that the 1919 and 1920 dots were not caused by a hardness test? Or that they were a crude non definitive hardness test perhaps caused by whacking a punch with a hammer?
I'll bet Stokes and Sons at Melbourne had hardness testers well before the Melbourne Mint did!
Being coin makers from the 1800's and into the 1900's.
Probably the MM guys popped over to S&S every now and then and borrowed a centre punch and hammer and a bit of know how.
OK, only stirring, but what a Mint Master in an empire branch reports in a yearly roundup to Sir in Pommy land has very little to do with what happened in the foundry and press shop.
Fred.
Thanks Mr T, :) yes it is, there is a whole lot of interesting information available in them if you didn't have access to any old reports before. Well they are things of interest to me anyway, that have answered a few questions. :) Sadly I feel the time has come to cease sharing these interesting pieces and just leave things to the experts who know better. Apologies for my inconsideration and thoughtlessness, won't happen again. :) Still have a lot of reading to do and the reports go from 1870 to 1967 :) Really need to be an accountant to make some sense in places. :)
Quote from: 'gnome61' pid='128972' dateline='1704428274'Thanks Mr T, :) yes it is, there is a whole lot of interesting information available in them if you didn't have access to any old reports before. Well they are things of interest to me anyway, that have answered a few questions. :) Sadly I feel the time has come to cease sharing these interesting pieces and just leave things to the experts who know better. Apologies for my inconsideration and thoughtlessness, won't happen again. :) Still have a lot of reading to do and the reports go from 1870 to 1967 :) Really need to be an accountant to make some sense in places. :)
Throw up your findings/research gnome,this Forum will be fine,your entitled to your opinion the same as everyone else and you may stumble across facts others have missed/disregarded/misinterpreted.
One thing you have to keep in mind are Records from the Mints in the early days are notoriously inaccurate or plain just falsified to keep the bosses,both here and in the UK,happy.
Hi Gnome, I second Basil!
Please keep reading and sharing.
The old records need airing for the many people that have not had the opportunity to read them.
As a self appointed "expert" I have trawled many old records tracing down the fables and myths to do with commonwealth coinage.
Any comment I made in this thread is just a reflection of this hobby and in no way "having a go" at you.
Time and memory loss get at all of us when recalling a fact about a subject, just ask Basil!
Even now you have remined me about the subject of hardness testers at the Melbourne mint and the source of a mention.
We all need as much help as we can get.
Thanks.
Just keep your observations coming please you never know how one little mention "clicks" with someone about some subject even if not apparent.
Cheers, Fred.
Thanks Fred,i think.lol,yes Gnome has to keep going and post on here,you never know what he might come across.
All the research from the 1960's(and earlier) is out there somewhere,it seemed to disappear and also in the 1970's+ be discredited in some cases.