An interesting development in the saga of the numerous fakes that PCGS has certified. They are making invalid the certification numbers of genuine coins if they are owned by collectors who possess a counterfeit coin in a PCGS slab and don't hand them over. To quote David Talk (PCGS customer services manager) Your account will remain blocked and the Certification Numbers remain invalid.., :@
Considering that we are the ones who warned PCGS that they were certifying fakes they are getting heavy handed to make the existence of these fakes dissapear into a memory hole.
The only good thing is that I got their nasty email at 02:22 this morning as at 10 I was down the post office to pick up a few packets and was to post off a 6 figure submission that included 4 1920 ./ English. Hate to think of them holding those coins as hostages in an account that is blocked
I think the approach is more to get those who may not know these exist to contact them, and more so to prevent any guarantee claims down the track against them.
This would only impact you if the certified coin was put into your registry.
One that wasn't in your registry would only throw a red flag when someone tried to add it.
That doesn't make any sense. The certification numbers of the 2 fakes have already been cancelled so anybody down the track would already need to contact PCGS to find out why the numbers come up as not on the database. Checking certification numbers applies whether you are adding the coin to a set registry or not (if anything to avoid fake slabs).
The making of genuine coin certifications as invalid is just a technique to hold those certificates as hostage to try to force me to hand over my fakes. Only problem for them is that I have the nuclear option of uploading images I've taken of those fakes that they have wrongly slabbed and in addition over 40 more coins that are wrongly described and also multiple other counterfeit coins (both Australian and foreign). I should add that those multiple other coins are not in my collection but belong to others who most likely don't know they have an overpriced misdescribed coin coin or a fake. If they find out then there could be a number of warranty claims that will be very expensive as a number are 4 and 5 figure coins.
Why wouldn't you send them back?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115283' dateline='1526102603'That doesn't make any sense. The certification numbers of the 2 fakes have already been cancelled so anybody down the track would already need to contact PCGS to find out why the numbers come up as not on the database. Checking certification numbers applies whether you are adding the coin to a set registry or not (if anything to avoid fake slabs).
The making of genuine coin certifications as invalid is just a technique to hold those certificates as hostage to try to force me to hand over my fakes. Only problem for them is that I have the nuclear option of uploading images I've taken of those fakes that they have wrongly slabbed and in addition over 40 more coins that are wrongly described and also multiple other counterfeit coins (both Australian and foreign). I should add that those multiple other coins are not in my collection but belong to others who most likely don't know they have an overpriced misdescribed coin coin or a fake. If they find out then there could be a number of warranty claims that will be very expensive as a number are 4 and 5 figure coins.
They don't require you to hand over the fakes. They only require the certs back. There's no reason you need to keep the certs. While we all know that you are one of the good guys without nefarious intentions, PCGS doesn't know that. From their perspective, you are keeping coins in PCGS holders knowing that the coins are fake.
Eric Eigner
Surely that PCGS 2014 Anzac mule is fake
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115285' dateline='1526114208'Why wouldn't you send them back?
I keep a "black box" collection of both raw and certified coins. Some of us collect not just error coins but certified coins that have been incorrectly holdered. Wrong denomination, wrong country, wrong mint and of course counterfeit. Keeping such a collection is useful to keep the TPGs on their toes to not screw up again and again. If the slabs are sent back then they will end up in a memory hole, same with sending back the certificate insert. Over the years I've kept records of many incorrectly holdered coins who certificates have been corrected (like my 1961 ram shilling that originally had NZ as its country) or whose existence has been erased (scores of counterfeit coins).
Has PCGS offered to refund you your slabbing fees and postage costs when you send the certs back Neil?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='115294' dateline='1526158072'Has PCGS offered to refund you your slabbing fees and postage costs when you send the certs back Neil?
Hi Trout, I did have an email from Eric where he told me that PCGS has offered a few free gradings. However this isn't about money but about principles and standards. I sent those 2 fakes in not to defraud (what would I get for a MS65 1911 shilling?) but to test the system. I want to keep them in their slabs not to embarrass PCGS but because I never could stand for cover-ups or the rewriting of facts.
I'll be sending you a PM to ask about certain coins.
I had dozens of wrongly attributed/labelled slabs from PCGS and the last straw was when they ruined 5 silver proof dollar coins and after they (reluctantly) cleaned them up the best grade I got was PR67 for them which is rubbish.
For all their talk they are NOT 100% infallible and when they do stuff up it is up to you to make things right, Stick to your guns Mate and if they want to play hard ball and screw you around talk to NGC :good:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115301' dateline='1526176251'Quote from: 'trout' pid='115294' dateline='1526158072'Has PCGS offered to refund you your slabbing fees and postage costs when you send the certs back Neil?
Hi Trout, I did have an email from Eric where he told me that PCGS has offered a few free gradings. However this isn't about money but about principles and standards. I sent those 2 fakes in not to defraud (what would I get for a MS65 1911 shilling?) but to test the system. I want to keep them in their slabs not to embarrass PCGS but because I never could stand for cover-ups or the rewriting of facts.
PCGS don't cover up facts, they're a public company, they have obligations to release this kind of information and they do, you can easily find out how much PCGS is paying to buy in their mistakes, you can even find high profile buy-ins on their website, e.g.: https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Grading-Guarantee-Update
They cancel the certificates to protect collectors from buying these known fakes.
If you're still worried about a cover-up, why don't you just take photos of them?
Looks like they are being honest and admitting mistakes -nobody's perfect after all. A few of our politicians and senior bankers should learn to do that.
You can get the amount of warranty reserves they have set aside and payments for grading mistakes each year in their 10-K annual report.
There are some interesting metrics on the number of coins graded and average fees etc in there as well.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115316' dateline='1526280574'They cancel the certificates to protect collectors from buying these known fakes.
If you're still worried about a cover-up, why don't you just take photos of them?
Hi Walter
I have no objection to the fakes certificates being cancelled, that is why I asked Eric to contact them to get them cancelled.
Photos are good, but these days with photoshop there can be plausible deniability that the photos are not real. With the physical slabs however that isn't possible.
It isn't just about them putting their mistakes in a memory hole, its also about them being
MY slabs (notwithstanding all the really fine print that they want to use) and I want to keep them untampered/undoctored with. If PCGS thinks its embarrassing that those 2 slabs exist then
that is good. They might pay more attention next time in not only spotting the fakes but listening to those of us who have posted this and other forums (CCF) that PCGS had slabbed some fake shillings including the 1911 with the scratch near the date. They should have picked that fake easily and not graded it MS65.
So because I told them I was keeping them they went all nasty and canceled the certs of 6 genuine coins of mine. Really dumb move as now I can post not just 2 slab images on the internet but 8 and let those thinking of getting coins slabbed know that their genuine certs can be cancelled at any time for any reason (or no reason). Makes spending on PCGS slabbing a bad investment.
So now instead of the fakes only being seen by a few responsible people....
Eric recommended I contact and negotiate a solution with them so I'll give it a few more days to see if they will parley
PCGS doesn't want them back because it's embarrassing, if they did they wouldn't be publishing just how many fakes they've had to buy back. The reason why they want them back (and for their small print which requires you send them back) is because they don't want you scamming other people with them. We know you won't do that but PCGS doesn't.
Tell them you destroyed them yourself.
PCGS actually needs the physical certs back to cancel them. They cannot do it without the physical certs. They have hidden your entire submission because that's the only way to hide the certs that they don't have back yet. And as they only just sent them to you, I guess they feel that this is justified. It also protects themselves (and collectors) against future claims in the event that you on-sell these coins. (All of us here know that you won't, but PCGS doesn't know that.) They do not do this to random submissions or individual coins that they later discover to be fake.
I know that they can hide entire submissions, because they did it to me once after I forgot to pay my PCGS fees.
Eric
I've had a couple that I've called them and requested they cancel, most weren't worth the effort of sending back so they requested I crack the slabs and send them a photo of the certificate cut in half. That made them happy, they even sent me a goodies bag and some free gradings for doing it
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that when a collector Not a dealer has a problem with a PCGS stuff up everyone with a vested interest goes to great pains to defend the sometimes "Draconian" actions of this grading company.
I can understand PCGS cancelling the certs on Neils fakes But to cancel the certs on the rest of the genuine coins in his submission smacks of blackmail.
Neil is Not at fault here PCGS is because they failed miserably by Not detecting the fake coins and put them in genuine slabs in the first place.
One of the main reasons why collectors use a TPG is to verify that their coins are Genuine So PCGS should be bending over backwards to get the 2x errant slabs off Neil, Not tying to Bully/blackmail him.
Nobody is defending PCGS, we're simply correcting the misconceptions about what he believes is PCGS' motivation.
Did they cancel all your registry coins or just coins from the submission you sent the fakes in?
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115332' dateline='1526460199'Nobody is defending PCGS, we're simply correcting the misconceptions about what he believes is PCGS' motivation.
Did they cancel all your registry coins or just coins from the submission you sent the fakes in?
So far the 8 coins. But if they are not willing to compromise then when a war will break out. If that happens I'll be removing all my coins from my registry and transferring ownership to my heirs (a few decades early) as a protective measure.
There is no logic in them fearing me selling the 2 slabbed fakes. I alerted the forums in early March to the years identified as fake (at that stage only the 1911 was known and the additions were 1914, 1916 and 1925), had I wanted to swindle anyone I would have sent 8 fakes (not 2) and would have done it in early March (and not waited a month until my 8 coins "free" submission was near expiry). I arranged for the 2 slabbed fakes to be designated as fakes (thanks Eric) and expected their certs to be cancelled (which they did very quickly, especially after I spotted my 1916 as the third image in the population report and let Eric know to tell them) . I also lent then 7 more fakes (raw) on 29/4/18 for them to get a better understanding of the fakes so (hopefully) there wouldn't be any more screw ups.
And if anyone wonders why I sent them then post # 26 on Steve's 1914 shilling with roo diecrack (PCGS MS63 but fake) had Cockatoo posting a message from Mike Sargent which included this...
PCGS is the leading expert in counterfeit detection. We maintain an impressive library of counterfeit photos that is unmatched by any third party service, are available to every PCGS grader. Best regards, Mike SargentSo I decided to test them with just 2 fakes, one that should have been on their red alert hot list (the 1911 shilling) and the 1916 as something a bit harder. With 2 graders looking at each coin you would expect at least one of them to have paid attention to the latest lists of known fakes. Or do they nap through the briefings? :sleepy:
I'm even willing to let the 2 fakes be sequestered away for a few years in neutral hands as long as after that period they come back uncracked in any way (so yes, still with the decertified certs inside).
So tonight I'll contact Mike Sargent and see if he can organise a compromise (as in a way it is his mess that they got through)
Are you talking to the same people that you talked to about the fakes? They're a large company and if you're talking to some random customer service rep they'll have no idea you were instrumental in helping PCGS identify them as fakes. Try talking to whoever you talked to before when informing them about the fakes.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='115326' dateline='1526418765'I've had a couple that I've called them and requested they cancel, most weren't worth the effort of sending back so they requested I crack the slabs and send them a photo of the certificate cut in half. That made them happy, they even sent me a goodies bag and some free gradings for doing it
Can I Photoshop some fake certificates being cut in half? An ironic way to deal with counterfeits.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115345' dateline='1526512451'Are you talking to the same people that you talked to about the fakes? They're a large company and if you're talking to some random customer service rep they'll have no idea you were instrumental in helping PCGS identify them as fakes. Try talking to whoever you talked to before when informing them about the fakes.
Hi Walter, the random customer service rep was David Talk. Last night I emailed PCGS and headed the email
Counterfeit Australian shillings (attention Mike Sargent). So I outlined a number of points and offered a compromise (they remain in their slabs, at a neutral location for a few years and then they come back uncracked with me not posting any images and only showing a select few persons). I did let him know that I'm angry about their retaliation and will post lots of images on lots of forums if they won't budge on a mutual compromise.
Seriously they are doing more harm to themselves than me as I who loses if I continue to keep my coins in their Saflips?(or do as Trout recommends and start using NGC for submissions; I already have a nice nucleus of top end NGC slabs with a number being Benchmark coins so it is a fallback if I can't submit to PCGS).
I understand Mike is a busy man so I'll give them a few weeks to respond.
I still don't believe the 2014 Anzac $1 mule PCGS slab is real
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115355' dateline='1526550936'Hi Walter, the random customer service rep was David Talk. Last night I emailed PCGS and headed the email Counterfeit Australian shillings (attention Mike Sargent). So I outlined a number of points and offered a compromise (they remain in their slabs, at a neutral location for a few years and then they come back uncracked with me not posting any images and only showing a select few persons). I did let him know that I'm angry about their retaliation and will post lots of images on lots of forums if they won't budge on a mutual compromise.
PCGS made a mistake putting those coins in holders.
But c'mon Neal. You say you want to reach a compromise, but then you threaten to post embarrassing images on forums. I'm just going to go out and say it: The way you're handling this situation... I don't think you're going to get the result you want.
Eric Eigner
Hi Eric. Their embarrassment or whatever has made them want those 2 slabs vanish, so......There can be only 2 basic reasons why they cancelled the genuine certs:
-retaliation for me not giving in to their demands for the 2 fakes
OR
-hostage taking to pressure me to hand over the 2 fakes.
So the only thing left for me to do to get them to reconsider their actions is to retaliate in kind. That way they won't get the result they want (the slabs vanishing) but the opposite (those slabs and dozens more put up in neon lights). Is that what they really want?
Quoteretaliate in kind
I'm with Eric. Why not consider negotiating in good faith and with an open mind?
I am sure PCGS wants to sort the problem and also does not want to alienate a client.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='115382' dateline='1526718238'Quoteretaliate in kind
I'm with Eric. Why not consider negotiating in good faith and with an open mind?
I am sure PCGS wants to sort the problem and also does not want to alienate a client.
I'd love that. Only problem is that PCGS has made zero response since they pulled their bully boy stunt 8 days ago and I've offered to find a compromise that both can accept. No response from David Talk, no response from anyone higher up their bureaucracy and no response from Mike Sargent.
So if they think that they can ignore the issue they are in for a horrible time. Do they really want to alienate a client who has a fascination with variety and error coins? (makes me pay attention to spotting coins that are not as the description states and over the years I've purchased many a slabbed coin that is a scarce variety in a standard variety slab, and in the same way have not purchased many a dud slabbed coin. For both though I've added details such as cert# to my notes).
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115388' dateline='1526742560'Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='115382' dateline='1526718238'Quoteretaliate in kind
I'm with Eric. Why not consider negotiating in good faith and with an open mind?
I am sure PCGS wants to sort the problem and also does not want to alienate a client.
I'd love that. Only problem is that PCGS has made zero response since they pulled their bully boy stunt 8 days ago and I've offered to find a compromise that both can accept. No response from David Talk, no response from anyone higher up their bureaucracy and no response from Mike Sargent.
So if they think that they can ignore the issue they are in for a horrible time. Do they really want to alienate a client who has a fascination with variety and error coins? (makes me pay attention to spotting coins that are not as the description states and over the years I've purchased many a slabbed coin that is a scarce variety in a standard variety slab, and in the same way have not purchased many a dud slabbed coin. For both though I've added details such as cert# to my notes).
I hear your frustration I hope you can get an outcome