From the NGC website:
"Transfer Die Counterfeits have become increasingly commonplace in the last few decades. Unfortunately, this type of fake can also be the most deceptive. A genuine coin is "sacrificed" to create a die that is an exact mirror image of the coin. This includes any and all marks, scratches or other issues on the surface of the genuine coin. As a result, every fake struck from these counterfeit dies will have the same depressions"
[img=628x628]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/echidna/20180303_1911penny800-_1_.jpg[/img]
[img=628x627]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/echidna/20180303_1911penn800y-_3_.jpg[/img]
This is a Transfer Die Counterfeit.
It was sent to PCGS who identified it.
Otherwise I'd be none the wiser.
Note the unusual "extra" rim especially under MP of IMP on the obverse.
Similar rim issues can be seen on many of these fakes.
Also note the obverse marks - under D of DG on the obverse.
The exact same marks can be seen on other 1911 pennies from the same batch of fakes.
And I've seen a few of these around for sale.
Sadly & ironically some are NGC & PCGS graded.
DON'T BUY THEM.
Any chance of increasing the size of the lettering in the above please.
I am using a magnifying glass to read what has been posted.
Where will it all end,stunning copy.I think that Coin has been posted in another Thread on this Forum stating its a fake last year.
This is my best 2011(if i haven't mixed the pictures up).Fingers crossed its genuine...
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/My_Ebay_penny_2_1911.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/My_Ebay_1911_Penny_Obv_.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/1phNEVq.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/1phNEVq.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/pQfbreT.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/pQfbreT.jpg)
High res images.
Let me know if there is a problem with them.
:shock: echidnas obverse even has a patch of virdigris and a few stains thrown in for free. As Basil says, where will it all end? If someone was able to list all the die markers on these fakes and write a book, it would eventually become a coin bible, and the author would then have a job for life keeping it up to date :zomby:
The list so far:
penny 1911, 1936
threepence 1917,1927,1914,1923 , 1936
shillings 1911, 1914, 1916, 1925 .
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='114347' dateline='1520243772'Any chance of increasing the size of the lettering in the above please.
I am using a magnifying glass to read what has been posted.
Hi Goldie, here's Echi's text from the first post. Hope this helps.
Great thread Echi btw.
From the NGC website:
"Transfer Die Counterfeits have become increasingly commonplace in the last few decades. Unfortunately, this type of fake can also be the most deceptive. A genuine coin is "sacrificed" to create a die that is an exact mirror image of the coin. This includes any and all marks, scratches or other issues on the surface of the genuine coin. As a result, every fake struck from these counterfeit dies will have the same depressions"
This is a Transfer Die Counterfeit.
It was sent to PCGS who identified it.
Otherwise I'd be none the wiser.
Note the unusual "extra" rim especially under MP of IMP on the obverse.
Similar rim issues can be seen on many of these fakes.
Also note the obverse marks - under D of DG on the obverse.
The exact same marks can be seen on other 1911 pennies from the same batch of fakes.
And I've seen a few of these around for sale.
Sadly & ironically some are NGC & PCGS graded.
DON'T BUY THEM.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='114353' dateline='1520253225'The list so far:
penny 1911, 1936
threepence 1917,1927,1914,1923 , 1936
shillings 1911, 1914, 1916, 1925 .
Got pictures of the rest?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='114361' dateline='1520333514'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='114353' dateline='1520253225'The list so far:
penny 1911, 1936
threepence 1917,1927,1914,1923 , 1936
shillings 1911, 1914, 1916, 1925 .
Got pictures of the rest?
If anyone wants more info probably best to send me a PM.
Pcgs's response to the forum posts,
I am currently out of the country grading Chinese coins in Asia. Fakes are now quite common in many parts of the world, and rampant in China. As far as counterfeit Australian coins go, there are fakes going around but they are not all that deceptive to the trained person. The only forum we have seen to date (CCF), states that NGC has graded a few of these counterfeits- not PCGS. I have read the thread but I cannot confirm this thread statement at this time, but we are quite able to distinguish these fakes. The reason we do not disclose how to tell the fakes from the genuine coins, is that counterfeiters read the forums and correct the die markers that we have discovered. NGC is making a huge mistake in disclosing this information to the public, and they are doing it for cheap publicity purposes. The PCGS guarantee is unmatched in the industry and your fellow collectors and investors should feel safe buying PCGS coins. I have been studying counterfeits for PCGS for 29 years, and PCGS is the leading expert in counterfeit detection. We maintain an impressive library of counterfeit photos that is unmatched by any third party grading service, are available to every PCGS grader.
Best regards, Mike Sargent
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='114383' dateline='1520482244'Pcgs's response to the forum posts,
Thanks for making the effort to post,bit of a waffle from the Mike guy thou.
Obviously more to come on this matter.
Mike is a pretty good authority on counterfeit coins, he doesn't see them as a problem for their graders which is a good thing. If you do however have any evidence of suspected copies in PCGS holders (as stated on a few occasions) I wouldn't mind sending cert numbers to him to have a look at. As the only example on CCF was in NGC i dont think he was too concerned about PCGS's reputation.
(https://i.imgur.com/kIifKQl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7iGMruX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YgMQK8V.jpg)
Three different 1911 shillings all with the exact same scratch.
Even the little dot to the right of the scratch is the same.
Pics were converted to greyscale to eliminate the fake tone.
If anyone has any in PCGS holders I would be more than happy to send them back for you, I have pulled all examples I had in auctions and in the safe to send back. Now in complete agreement they are 100% counterfeit no doubt at all.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='114385' dateline='1520486896'Mike is a pretty good authority on counterfeit coins, he doesn't see them as a problem for their graders which is a good thing. If you do however have any evidence of suspected copies in PCGS holders (as stated on a few occasions) I wouldn't mind sending cert numbers to him to have a look at. As the only example on CCF was in NGC i dont think he was too concerned about PCGS's reputation.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='114396' dateline='1520543961'If anyone has any in PCGS holders I would be more than happy to send them back for you, I have pulled all examples I had in auctions and in the safe to send back. Now in complete agreement they are 100% counterfeit no doubt at all.
Seems like your another one of us who was ripped off by these fakes. How many coins and what years did you get slabbed? I purchased my first fake 3 years ago so I'm wondering how many fakes are out there either raw or in slabs. The population report might take a big hit if a number of MS grade fakes are pulled.
Did you buy them from Canada or Europe? Perhaps a list needs to be made of both the known fakes and of those selling them.
Also as PCGS will now be seriously out of pocket they have an incentive to use their power to get the police involved in going after the counterfeiters. Darn hard for us individuals in Australia to deal with Canadian/US/European police (and the sellers might have been counting on that).
Mine came from Spain, 1911 shilling and 1925/3 shilling so far are the only ones I have seen, just pulled them from numis to send back.
I've seen quite a few unc 1911 shilling on ebay lately and they have all come from sellers in Spain they looked to good to be fake but they probably were. Next time I see one I'll post it.
It's concerning how good these fakes are.
Could this be one
Ebay 263507168732
There's so many ?
302301082448
1923 threepence
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTRALIA-1923-3-PENCE-MONEDA-PLATA-BRILLO-ORIGINAL-SC-D2-RARA-FECHA/302406106431?hash=item4668cefd3f:g:4NoAAOSwzRlZhinH
1914 threepence
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTRALIA-AUSTRALIEN-1914-3-PENCE-SILBER-Munzen-ALBUM3-KFR/302406101343?hash=item4668cee95f:g:-ZEAAOSwgIpZhifp
1917 threepence
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTRALIA-1917-3-PENCE-MONEDA-PLATA-BRILLO-ORIGINAL-SC-D2/302406105804?hash=item4668cefacc:g:mOoAAOSw2WBZhil2
If these are in fact fakes they have been around for a while.I remember reading an article/post around 2012/13 where the Author states the malformed 'M' was his key to ID the Silver forgeries.
As usual i can't find the article via Google or searches on this Forum or CCF but someone may come across it.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1917_3d_fake_rev_.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1917_3d_fake.jpg)
These are all fakes in my opinion.
Ideally you would compare them with others from the same dies and be able to see the same field marks.
Otherwise its the extra bit of rim around the outside that gives them away.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='114422' dateline='1520641912'Otherwise its the extra bit of rim around the outside that gives them away.
Yeah,i had trouble seeing it in the Pics. of the Shillings but clearly visible on the above Coin.
For eg. these 1911 Shillings have the extra bit of Rim underneath the date but otherwise seem OK.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1911_Shilling_OK.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1911_shilling_obv.jpg)
UPDATE
I sent a 1911 and 1916 shilling in a recent submission to PCGS. Both are almost certainly fakes.
Both came back MS65. Not sure if that makes me :yahoo:or :swoon: as that makes them both near the very best graded.
Won't be adding them to my set registry.
No images yet but their certificate numbers are 35021221 and 35021222
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115016' dateline='1524606203'UPDATE
I sent a 1911 and 1916 shilling in a recent submission to PCGS. Both are almost certainly fakes.
Both came back MS65. Not sure if that makes me :yahoo:or :swoon: as that makes them both near the very best graded.
Won't be adding them to my set registry.
No images yet but their certificate numbers are 35021221 and 35021222
Thanks for posting these Neal.
Pictures are up gentlemen, 1911 shilling looks very real.
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='115024' dateline='1524641396'Pictures are up gentlemen, 1911 shilling looks very real.
A $4000 fake. I have another with the exact same scratch below the date , yours for the bargain price of $3000 :mafia:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115025' dateline='1524643167'Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='115024' dateline='1524641396'Pictures are up gentlemen, 1911 shilling looks very real.
A $4000 fake. I have another with the exact same scratch below the date , yours for the bargain price of $3000 :mafia:
Do I get a discount if I buy both ? :winkextra:
BTW I hope you did not pay too much for the coins...
All up close to $2000 on 8 shillings and a threepence. Not great but sometimes you lose in buying raw coins. The same PCGS submission had a 1916 MS64 florin that cost me only $331, a 1910 MS63 shilling that cost $161, a MS62 1926 Serif Sixpence for USD 197 and a MS64 Centenary for $416. So still well in front.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115029' dateline='1524672390'All up close to $2000 on 8 shillings and a threepence. Not great but sometimes you lose in buying raw coins. The same PCGS submission had a 1916 MS64 florin that cost me only $331, a 1910 MS63 shilling that cost $161, a MS62 1926 Serif Sixpence for USD 197 and a MS64 Centenary for $416. So still well in front.
Good to hear, also if you paid with PayPal, you might be able to make a claim. Don't let it go that easily. Good luck with it all..
The certificates for those two still aren't showing up for me on the PCGS website, would love to add the pic's to my register of fake dies they have produced.
PCGS has pulled them.
It must be close to 13 years since I purchased any predecimal silver, but just reading some of the posts in this thread, I'm starting to appreciate the street smarts I lack when it comes to keeping up with the dodgers.
Being mainly a scrounger of predecimal penny varieties these days, I'm well aware of how coins can be identified by certain markers and various characteristics that can link them to a particular die or dies, but that's not to say I'm up to speed with any of the minting processes.
So from a slightly naive perspective with respect to fake predecimal silver or any fakes for that matter, if back in the day, say a Mint tool room employee was having a bad day and carelessly handled a transfer die or dies causing field scratches and other dings, would it not be possible for these concave defects to be then imparted onto any number of working dies (convex), which in turn did the same (concave) to any amount of the mintage before the problem was detected? Also, could the same be said of poorly handled working dies, where concave damage is reproduced on the coinage as blobs and cuds etc?
Not trying to defend scumbag fakers and scammers, just being the devils advocate :angel:
The issues with these particular ones is I have a 1911 shilling and a 1925 shilling, both obverses struck with the same dies and have the same marks.
Hi Auto, your thinking is correct in that a badly handled master or hub or punch can create marks and that is what legitimate "die markers" can be.
The problem here and as Neal and I showed in the article in CAB may issue, are marks that are identical and on coins that were supposedly minted in different locations and on coins with dates separated by many years, 1911 and 1925 in this case.
Somehow a marked die or hub managed to persist overall those years and locations?
If this was true then a huge number of coins should have those marks and then they would be a common "die marker" tracing the passage of that hub/die error over the years, just like the damaged pearls on the Indian obverse pennies.
So the problem is we have a low number of coins, probably thousands, with identical marks but from those very separate sources half a planet and decades apart. THAT is the problem that needs explaining and the only logical reason is they were minted at the same time and place with a common obverse die and various reverse dies (to give different dates). We went into some reasons why this would be done in the article.
Hope this answers your question.
Cheers, Fred.
Thanks for the explanation Fred. I haven't fully read the article so that's something I need to do, and as you say, some strange goings on. I do remember reading somewhere, where penny dies sent to Australian mints from London back in the early twenties, were used again in the late twenties or there abouts?
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='115141' dateline='1525331439'Thanks for the explanation Fred. I haven't fully read the article so that's something I need to do, and as you say, some strange goings on. I do remember reading somewhere, where penny dies sent to Australian mints from London back in the early twenties, were used again in the late twenties or there abouts?
Hi Again, its a long and complex story tracing the movement of masters, hubs and dies from 1910 to 1960's, many twists and turns and requires a lot of reading of the main researchers. You need tp pick the eyes out of lots of texts but this is why Bill Mulletts' "Particular Coins" is so important because it anchors you to a time span when he worked at the mint and researched a lot of records really out of interest.
Fred.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='115135' dateline='1525297012'The issues with these particular ones is I have a 1911 shilling and a 1925 shilling, both obverses struck with the same dies and have the same marks.
So did they come from Canada or Spain? (or is there any other sellers involved?)
Did any of them make it as far as being sent for grading? Almost certainly from one of the obverses I also got caught with.
I don't know if the forum will allow it but are we allowed to post the details of the sellers (eBay name, postal address etc) of coins determined to be
genuine. So K&M, can we post the details of these
honest sellers?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115151' dateline='1525338995'Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='115135' dateline='1525297012'The issues with these particular ones is I have a 1911 shilling and a 1925 shilling, both obverses struck with the same dies and have the same marks.
So did they come from Canada or Spain? (or is there any other sellers involved?)
Did any of them make it as far as being sent for grading? Almost certainly from one of the obverses I also got caught with.
I don't know if the forum will allow it but are we allowed to post the details of the sellers (eBay name, postal address etc) of coins determined to be genuine. So K&M, can we post the details of these honest sellers?
They came from durospain, both were graded but have since had their certificates cancelled.