A few months ago Trout mentioned that he thought that PCGS HK was overgrading coins. I've purchased about 100 slabbed coins this year (half in HK slabs) and I have to agree with Trout as their grades vary from equivalent to head office down to several points overgraded. (a Canberra MS65 florin I BIN purchased for about $165 is a perfect example of this, the PCGS lookup of the florin [80742158] shows it in the slab and you cannot spot all the dings that makes it only worthy of MS63, at least the seller had it BIN based more on the coin than the grade)). I think some sellers are intentionally sending them to HK to get the lax grading (plus lower fees) and hoping that buyers will bid based on the grade and not the coin. It isn't even easy to bid on the coin and not the slab as the HK coins are photographed in the slab (that is how you know it wasn't done in California) and the images are pretty ordinary. Personally I always apply a discount when bidding on HK coins so the seller doesn't really come out in front.
Some of the recent top of the pop coins only seem to be there due to the lax grading and that makes it hard to compete on an uneven playing field in the set registry. Also what is to stop the owner of an overgraded HK coin sending it to California to get the coin cracked out for a Trueview image (and then reholdered). A single point can add tenfold to a coins valuation so there is a big incentive to play that game.
Opinions?
Good point Neal :good: I know of one person that's also an admin on FB that has used HK and is also a member here that says nothing shonky happens on FB but I don't know how many times I've seen dodge stuff happening and especially from so called admin but they ALL say nothing ever happens and it's the best place to deal..give me a break :dash1:
I have to agree. I have observed the same. I have a few coins I know would grade point higher (BTW if that happens they would become the SFG) easy. But as always buy the coin not the slab.
The first time I noticed this crappy grading from PCGS in HK was with that huge submission that Cotton & Co got graded there and subsequently put on the market, There were some absolute shockers in that batch.
I have since noticed many more badly graded coins coming from the HK office.
Maybe APCGS has moved to HK :angel:
The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112926' dateline='1511436434'The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
Thanks Walter, if thats the case do you know why the pics from HK are different ?
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112926' dateline='1511436434'The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
If HK sends them to the US then how does HK offer slabbing fees frequently lower than if they were sent direct to the US? Wouldn't their costs be higher with the expense of transporting them across the Pacific and back? Plus how do they offer to grade coins for 16USD in HK (1955-64 pre decimals are Modern under HK standards) but in the US those same coins cost 20 USD to grade because they have a different definition of Modern?
If it isn't due to being submitted to HK then why have a number of us spotted HK shockers? Something is causing this problem, so did the standards slip due to the pressures of the big submissions to HK or did Mr Magoo temp at PCGS when those big lots went through HK?
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112926' dateline='1511436434'The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
If that is the case then why the completely different imaging system between the HK submissions and the US submissions?
IF the coins are in fact sent to the US to be graded then it would be understandable to think that they would also be encapsulated and imaged in the US as well.
Or is it a case of NOW the coins are being sent to the US for grading after the US office became aware of the crappy job that the HK office was doing?
IF from the very first instance the HK submissions were all sent to the US office for grading then PCGS seriously dropped the ball as far as grading standards go with the HK submissions and I have a hard time believing that the graders at Newport Beach would allow the garbage that some of the coins in that are in the HK slabs to get out of the building.
It just seems to me to be very very Odd that the submissions sent to the US to be graded are at the usual high standard of grading that we have come to expect and yet the submissions that have been sent to HK have a much lower standard of grading and lack of consistency thereof.
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='112927' dateline='1511437193'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112926' dateline='1511436434'The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
Thanks Walter, if thats the case do you know why the pics from HK are different ?
I'm not sure, Phil Arnold said PCGS is looking for a photographer in Shanghai so maybe they're graded there instead? Actually all I know is they're shipped out of HK for grading, I had always just assumed they go to the US.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='112929' dateline='1511440555'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112926' dateline='1511436434'The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
If that is the case then why the completely different imaging system between the HK submissions and the US submissions?
IF the coins are in fact sent to the US to be graded then it would be understandable to think that they would also be encapsulated and imaged in the US as well.
Or is it a case of NOW the coins are being sent to the US for grading after the US office became aware of the crappy job that the HK office was doing?
IF from the very first instance the HK submissions were all sent to the US office for grading then PCGS seriously dropped the ball as far as grading standards go with the HK submissions and I have a hard time believing that the graders at Newport Beach would allow the garbage that some of the coins in that are in the HK slabs to get out of the building.
It just seems to me to be very very Odd that the submissions sent to the US to be graded are at the usual high standard of grading that we have come to expect and yet the submissions that have been sent to HK have a much lower standard of grading and lack of consistency thereof.
HK never did grading, their office isn't even big enough for grading to be done there, it's just a Submission Centre.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='112928' dateline='1511438259'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112926' dateline='1511436434'The Hong Kong office just sends them to the US for grading so the submission centre doesn't affect the grade.
Remember correlation doesn't equal causation.
If HK sends them to the US then how does HK offer slabbing fees frequently lower than if they were sent direct to the US? Wouldn't their costs be higher with the expense of transporting them across the Pacific and back? Plus how do they offer to grade coins for 16USD in HK (1955-64 pre decimals are Modern under HK standards) but in the US those same coins cost 20 USD to grade because they have a different definition of Modern?
If it isn't due to being submitted to HK then why have a number of us spotted HK shockers? Something is causing this problem, so did the standards slip due to the pressures of the big submissions to HK or did Mr Magoo temp at PCGS when those big lots went through HK?
It doesn't cost PCGS $10 more to grade a 1964 coin over a 1965 coin, they've just chosen a pricing structure that's relevant to the target market.
Regarding shockers, I reserved my comment here as quite simply I haven't got enough data to comment. I can confirm that the grading standards themselves are the same but to test whether HK submissions have more mistakes you'd need to judge thousands of coins to get any sort of reasonable confidence level.
If you want to find the truth, you shouldn't be looking for mistakes but rather look at large numbers of random coins from the HK office, test the grades and calculate how many mistakes they make per 1000 coins, do the same with the US office and see the results.
I still think some coins are graded higher for the bigger submissions and bigger customers to keep them happy and continue to use pcgs. And why have they changed the standard if it's suppose to be to one standard as older slabbed coin appear to be under graded as compared to today's standards or is it that you have to get the right people grading on the right day when they're in a good mood and if this is the case it makes grading coins a bit of a waste of money as it's not unbiased and consistent like people say it is.
And I agree Neal as it makes no sense or even good business to be sending coins all around the world for less money, maybe everyone, US customers as well should sent to HK if it's cheaper. But then there's a lot of things that don't make sense when it comes to business, eg buying a holden or ford car they've exported to the US a hell of a lot cheaper than you could buy here and that's with shipping and changing to left hand drive and other modifications to make them compliant. It was cheaper to buy a ford capri or holden monaro and have then shipped back and changed back to right hand drive than to buy one here..it's just madness. Sorry for going off topic :blush2:
QuoteIf you want to find the truth, you shouldn't be looking for mistakes but rather look at large numbers of random coins from the HK office, test the grades and calculate how many mistakes they make per 1000 coins, do the same with the US office and see the results.
Finding the Truth and getting answers from PCGS is just as hard as doing the same thing with RAM in my experience Walter and with both enterprises even when confronted with the truth at times they refuse to acknowledge it.
IF the Hong Kong office of PCGS is simply a submission centre then what is the explanation as to why there is such a Vast difference in the level of service provided to PCGS customers that use that office?
I have always thought that the imaging service provided by NGC was pretty "Ordinary" But the images provided for the coins that are submitted to the HK office of PCGS although similar to the NGC images are even worse, Why is this the case?
If the coins submitted to the HK office are all sent to Newport Beach for grading and encapsulation then it would be reasonable to assume that these coins would receive the same level of service (Including the images provided) as the coins sent directly to the US for grading, This is simply NOT the case.
Personally I don't think it is necessary to examine thousands of slabs from the US and HK PCGS submissions to tell if there is a problem with the HK slabs Much the same as there was NO need to examine thousands of APCGS slabs to know that there was a problem with those slabs either.
Maybe myself and Neil are not Big fish in the pond But we don't need to be "Big Fish" to notice the rubbish floating around in that pond.
PCGS in Australia has a Great "Image" and the popularity of both PCGS and NGC graded coins has done great things as far as improving a collectors ability to acquire coins that are truthfully and accurately graded But the inconsistencies that are coming out of the Hong Kong office of PCGS has the very real potential of destroying that image and it has to stop.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='112933' dateline='1511462161'I still think some coins are graded higher for the bigger submissions and bigger customers to keep them happy and continue to use pcgs. And why have they changed the standard if it's suppose to be to one standard as older slabbed coin appear to be under graded as compared to today's standards or is it that you have to get the right people grading on the right day when they're in a good mood and if this is the case it makes grading coins a bit of a waste of money as it's not unbiased and consistent like people say it is.
I am not sure that the bigger customers get better grades and I have No proof or evidence of that So hopefully that isn't the case.
I do however know that the bigger submissions are cheaper per coin and I believe that they get moved through the grading process faster than the smaller players submissions do.
I don't think that the older slabs were "Under Graded" I personally think it is more of a case "Gradeflation" that is occurring.
As for the same coin being graded differently by different graders then that is Definitely going to happen simply because different graders will always have a different opinion of a particular coin at times and you have to remember that when you send a coin away to be graded by a TPG what you are paying for is an Opinion, Nothing more and nothing less.
I'm the 2nd biggest submitter in Australia and I don't get better grades so I don't think that's true.
Some older PCGS slabs do seem more conservatively graded but you don't really find Australian coins in these so it's really just a US issue.
Think about this Trout, I'd estimate about 100,000 Aussie coins have gone through HK, at a 99% grading accuracy rate there'd be 1000 grading mistakes out there and if they all go to the market at once you'd inevitably see lots of them and in the same way you'd notice 1 bad driver instead of 99 good ones, you end up remembering each mistake ignoring the hundreds of correct grades along the way.
[quote pid='112932' dateline='1511443375']
HK never did grading, their office isn't even big enough for grading to be done there, it's just a Submission Centre.
So why did PCGS have many press releases back in 2012-13 stating that HK would be grading and authenticating coins? I'm looking at one document (dated 26/1/12) from PCGS and in it Murial Eymery (Vice President International Buisness Development for PCGS) states "...along with the PCGS Hong Kong grading and operations team,.."
Regarding shockers, I reserved my comment here as quite simply I haven't got enough data to comment. I can confirm that the grading standards themselves are the same but to test whether HK submissions have more mistakes you'd need to judge thousands of coins to get any sort of reasonable confidence level.
If you want to find the truth, you shouldn't be looking for mistakes but rather look at large numbers of random coins from the HK office, test the grades and calculate how many mistakes they make per 1000 coins, do the same with the US office and see the results.
[/quote]
I don't need a statistical analysis of thousands of coins. if out of 50 coins I find 10 that are clearly overgraded compared to similar dates/grades then there is a problem.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112938' dateline='1511479117'Think about this Trout, I'd estimate about 100,000 Aussie coins have gone through HK, at a 99% grading accuracy rate there'd be 1000 grading mistakes out there and if they all go to the market at once you'd inevitably see lots of them and in the same way you'd notice 1 bad driver instead of 99 good ones, you end up remembering each mistake ignoring the hundreds of correct grades along the way.
I am Not saying that ALL the coins submitted via the HK office are badly graded, What I am saying is that the consistency of the grading standards that are coming from the HK office is "Noticeably" of a lower standard than that of the coins submitted through the US office.
It's Not a case of simply noticing the antics of one bad driver on the road at all, If it was we would be noticing the same issue with the US graded coins which is clearly NOT the case.
I fully understand why you are trying to hide this issue under the carpet because of your vested interest in maintaining PCGS's reputation But I would also presume that it would be in yours and our best interest to rectify this lower standard of grading AND the lousy images that are currently coming out of the Hong Kong office that have the potential to affect the value of not only collectors coins But also the dealers inventories as well.
Denying the existence of this problem won't make it go away and as you are in a far better position to exert your influence on PCGS to resolve this issue than I or many others here I am hopeful that you can be successful where we would simply be ignored.
I wouldn't be one bit surprised if there is some sort of kickback like there was between some of the FB admin and apcgs but they still deny this but you can seen now that so many have been burnt from apcgs that they don't stand up for and delete posts like they used to. Some FB pages would have to be getting some sort of kickback from others that promote things they shouldn't, gee one page has a rule about no advertising but then they happily give stuff away from a "sponsor" but if you say anything about adverting and double standards, as it is, your post is very quickly deleted. There's always kickback all over the place, even our gov gives and receives them.
It would be very interesting to know the order of who the biggest graders are, so far it would have to be cotton first as that's what he's been saying for quite a few years now and then I thought it would be a close second between Walter and Eric so maybe we can get them to fight :mocking:
This sounds like another great mystery of the world that olny a very rare few get to know the truth and I think that's the way a lot would like to keep it..YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH..sorry I can't help my self :laugh2:
If you find 10 mistakes in 50 then that is evidence of poor consistency but if you find 1 in 50 then it can just be a statistical anomaly.
Realistically we're talking about numbers like 1 in a 100 so the sample space required for a decent level of confidence is in the thousands.
I'm not trying to hide anything here, I'm just giving the information as I have. As stated I've reserved my opinion because I haven't studied enough coins in detail for a statistically meaningful conclusion.
Rememeber PCGS has a guarantee which they pay out generously on, they don't want to make mistakes so if they do start to get a higher ratio of guarantee submissions they will definitely do something about it.
Walter, what happened to the PCGS announcement back in 2012 that they would be GRADING in HK? Did they stop the grading after they set up the grading facilities or did they find too many problems before they started grading?
Also, I understand the SUBMISSION office in HK may be too small to have grading facilities (its an office suite in Kowloon, high rent area) but doesn't mean that the grading facilities cannot be elsewhere in HK (say in an industrial park in the New Territories). So is it CERTAIN that they send them to the US? (especially as they need ready access to facilities when they offer grading services at a number of coin shows in HK and nearby countries every year?)
They always tell me I need to get orders in before a certain date to get them added to this month's shipment so they ship them somewhere. It's possible they're going to Shanghai as they have a grading centre there, I'll have a read of your 2012 link later, I'm on my phone now.
They could have another office im HK but why would they only send shipments once a month?
Here you go folks, this is what I was told in Sept 2017 regarding the submission process. Note the sentence in bold letters. They do send the coins to US.
.......................
Thank you for your email.
There are two ways to submit your coins to PCGS Hong Kong Submission Centre:
(1) Drop off or mail your coin submission to the PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center.
Mail Address:
PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center
Room 11A-14, 11/F
Tower 3, China Hong Kong City
Kowloon, Hong Kong
*Notify the PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center by emailing a copy of the downloadable submission form to info@pcgsAsia.com or
faxing a copy to +852 2194 6628
*All packages must be addressed to PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center.
*All submissions should be packaged securely and must be accompanied by a PCGS Hong Kong submission form.
Coins and Banknotes submitted for grading will be delivered to U.S. for grading around twice a month.
You must be a Collectors Club member to submit coins. The fee for joining PCGS Collectors Club member is USD 69 per year.
(2) Submit to PCGS Authorized dealer in your country.
Please visit http://www.pcgs.com/dealers/ for more information about PCGS Authorized Dealer.
*All pattern coins, mint errors must be submitted at Regular service or higher.
All Services include PCGS Secure Service. *Contact PCGS Hong Kong for Bulk pricing.
Oversized Coin Holder fee is USD 10 per coin (when required). A USD 10 plus USD 1 per coin Handling Fee is applied to all submissions.
For more information about PCGS Service, please visit http://www.pcgsasia.com/Submit?l=en
We cannot provide any comments just base on the picture/photo of the coins / holdered coins.
Please be aware that customer has to submit physical coins or holdered coins in order to get the most accurate result of authentication.
We are pleased to inform you that we can send you back the graded coins to your address, we will ship the coins to you by EMS or Fedex, shipping fee USD, please see below are the information for your reference:
Please feel free to contact us if you have any question. Thank you and have a great day!
Now I'm even more confused. Walter wrote that there is a grading centre in Shanghai and Ausproofs showed good evidence that HK submissions go to the US. Why does PCGS have a grading centre in Shanghai but then not use them for HK submissions? :huh:
[quote="nealeffendi" pid='112952' dateline='1511537184']
Now I'm even more confused. Walter wrote that there is a grading centre in Shanghai and Ausproofs showed good evidence that HK submissions go to the US. Why does PCGS have a grading centre in Shanghai but then not use them for HK submissions? :huh:
[/quote]
HK is an SEZ, if shipments go from HK to mainland China they'll be subject to customs clearance and VAT. It looks like the Shianghai office is just for mainland submissions.
So why send to HK, unless there's some catch like the coins get a better grade, this is really strange and a very odd way to run a business..something funny is going on that's for sure :dodgy:
I send through HK because it allows me to hand deliver orders.
That's fair enough if your in the area but seems funny to send from here and not direct to the US unless something different is happening if HK is then sending the coins to the US and then back for less money then sending to US or if you know they grade higher going via HK..all sounds very fishy to me and there's more going on here than meets the eye :scratch_one-s_head:
If the coins are sent to the US from the HK submission centre then Why then are they imaged differently?
When a coin is authenticated and graded at the Newport Beach facility it is graded first then imaged and the final process is to encapsulate them and post them off.
Why is it then that the HK submissions are imaged AFTER they have been encapsulated?
Is this telling us that the HK submissions can be identified by the graders as such and different standards are being applied to these submissions because the submissions are supposed to be anonymous and sending the coins directly to the encapsulation process instead of going to the imaging department first would be a dead giveaway that those submissions are from HK.
From what we can see on the ground here is that there IS a problem with the grading standards of the HK submissions and yet they are Supposedly treated "Exactly" the same as any other submission sent directly to the US, This is NOT the case because the submissions are even imaged in a completely different and sub standard way to the US submissions.
I tend to agree with AJ in that there is something Fishy, Untoward or just plain Dodgy about the HK submissions and as collectors we have questions that Need to be answered honestly and accurately Or is this simply a case of the usual goods/services that come from China being cheaper and of a lesser standard than the same US product?
Instead of speculating why don't you ask PCGS?
There are a lot of comments here, but I'll try to answer some of them here:
1. As ausproofs has shown, the coins are sent to the US for grading. I can also confirm that PCGS has said to me that the coins are graded in the US. Having said that, they are obviously not photographed in the US. Since the fees in HK are lower, it stands to reason that they're not going to put the extra cost of "Secure Plus" images for the HK coins, to help reduce costs.
2. Why should a collector send coins to HK? Because it's closer. Because you're in China and don't want to ship "overseas". And because the fees are cheaper too. There are a lot of reasons. A PCGS rep is on record saying that PCGS is trying to divert all world submitters to HK to try to grow that submission centre. It stands to reason that they are going to try to encourage this by having cheaper rates. The suggestion that people are sending coins to HK to "get better grades" is a furphy. If we let rumours like this persist, it'll be just another conspiracy theory that somehow has warped into fact.
3. It is cheaper for PCGS to send coins from HK to the US instead of having a grading team in HK. I know for a fact that large shippers can get up to 85% off their shipping fees. PCGS would definitely be considered a large shipper. The per unit cost of shipping thousands of coins to the US and back to HK would be small.
4. I haven't seen any evidence that HK grades less consistently than the US, but it is the same graders doing the grading. Ausjack wrote that he thinks some coins are "graded higher for bigger submissions or bigger customers". While we're all entitled to think whatever we want, it's important not to be distracted by allegations that are not backed by evidence. If we don't call out fake comments for what they are—a baseless assumption made by someone who just "thinks" something—some people will repeat your comment as though it is a fact, and before we know it, people are assuming it's real. Sort of like how people think Obama is a Muslim. Both are just made up assumptions (that may or may not be true), and need to be called out as such.
5. I send thousands of coins to PCGS. I'm not sure if I'm the third biggest submitter in Australia, but I suppose I'm not a small submitter. I can confirm that I don't get "better" grades than other people. In fact, I'm regularly disappointed with my grades. Let me say something else: If HK graded more loosely than the US, then I would send my coins to HK. So why don't I do this? Because it's just a furphy, a rumour that people are thinking because they have seen a small amount of coins that don't meet their expectation.
I have seen a lot of coins graded in the US that don't meet my expectations. But instead of assuming something for which I have no evidence (better grades for bigger submitters, the submission centre is loose, gradeflation, etc), I consider it to be just noise. I'm not going to get a perfect score with PCGS, and PCGS and I will disagree, no matter which centre we send our coins to.
6. It is very fashionable to have strong opinions about things these days, especially on social media and the internet where we can all be keyboard warriors. But the most important thing to think about whenever somebody makes a baseless comment is 1) Is it a fact (that may or may not be true) or just an "opinion" that that person is entitled to believe?
Well most things are just opinions like TPG's them selves, some say worth the money others think it's a total ripoff and each to their own. I said a lot of things about apcgs and and how can one person be doing all the grading etc and about admin kickbacks on FB and now people are actually saying what really went on and not protecting apcgs like they did so not all claims are baseless as yes some are theories as you said but then sometimes theory becomes proven/fact as time goes by. I can see why the pcgs sellers rave about them saying how good and consistent they are as ya don't wanna kill the goose that lays the golden egg, same as how any salesman talks up their product or a product they want to sell :winkextra:
So in other words, your getting an inferior product for your money, so like the saying goes, you get what you pay for.
Don't worry Eric I'll still use you if I want anything graded :friends:
I'd just like to make a few things clear so, please don't get me wrong and think I'm dead against TPG's as I'm not as I have a few my self but I try and only get coins done that are truly worthy of being graded unlike some people that put in 20,000 coin submissions in one go and just flood the market for a quick buck and this sort of thing takes away from the better graded coins as newbies think it's just a total ripoff. Some TPG's are also only in it for the money and this too hurts collecting as you can see by a lot of comments on FB that they have lost faith in dealers and TPG's and think coin collecting is just a big con.
I also think the big TPG's should do the right thing and sometimes they don't like, why don't they call the 2002-2009 wedding coins what they are, a specimen coin and shouldn't get an MS grading..just my thoughts on that as PCGS will not admit they made a mistake but it's not a problem for NGC to call them specimen..funny that.
Some of the TPG's are just full on out to rip people off and you can find heaps of eg's if you look around and here's just a couple from ebay (not that they're much help as they don't do anything to stop it) :@ but interesting to find out what one's to try and stay clear of. http://www.ebay.com/gds/GEC-NAC-Coin-Grading-Review-/10000000003647183/g.html
http://www.ebay.com/gds/NNC-COIN-GRADING-NATIONAL-NUMISTMATIC-CERTIFICATION-/10000000002539596/g.html
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Coin-Buyers-Beware-/10000000001577458/g.html
and other places to find info like the old ccf and even here if the question was asked ;) https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15389
Even our own Mr Eric has a bit of a write up but it's not mentioning good or bad just when he first got into them :) http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/news-wire/news-wire/australias-professional-coin-grading-service-pcgs
So see I'm not dead against, just anything that looks shonky that can do damage to our hobby as you can see the damage these things do and drive people away instead of bringing them in..just my thoughts so now you can hang me :zomby:
Quote1. As ausproofs has shown, the coins are sent to the US for grading. I can also confirm that PCGS has said to me that the coins are graded in the US. Having said that, they are obviously not photographed in the US. Since the fees in HK are lower, it stands to reason that they're not going to put the extra cost of "Secure Plus" images for the HK coins, to help reduce costs.
This is where the waters get murky.
From what I have read the coins go the HK and are then sent to the US, They are then sent directly from the US back to Australia, So it makes absolutely NO sense that the coins are Not imaged in the States because how the hell can that Not happen when they are encapsulated in the States ( The HK images are of the coins in the slabs, Not unlike the NGC images are) and sent from there.
Also it isn't just a couple of collectors that have noticed the degraded grading standards of the HK submissions there are quite a few that have noticed it, Just because you yourself say that everything is hunky dory doesn't automatically make it so, That is YOUR opinion and Not an absolute Fact either.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='112989' dateline='1511601009'This is where the waters get murky.
From what I have read the coins go the HK and are then sent to the US, They are then sent directly from the US back to Australia, So it makes absolutely NO sense that the coins are Not imaged in the States because how the hell can that Not happen when they are encapsulated in the States ( The HK images are of the coins in the slabs, Not unlike the NGC images are) and sent from there.
The coins are sent from HK to the US. Then they're graded and sent back to HK. HK photographs them and ships them back to the owners or holds coins to be picked up. This makes sense, as HK does not charge an additional fee for quality photos and instead does their lower-quality photos. This is how HK can charge cheaper rates.
Hong Kong submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/SubmissionForm/HongKongEnglishForm.pdf
US submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usaform.pdf
The pricing for modern submissions at the HK office is only $1 cheaper than the same submission sent to the US and 1979 is the earliest date can be sent using that submission from HK and yet the US submissions can be as early as 1965, You loose a lot for a lousy dollar especially considering the crap images supplied by the HK office.
Economy and regular submissions from HK are $25 and $45 where the same submissions to the US cost $20 and $32.
So it looks like it is more expensive to use the HK office if your coin is dated before 1979 which includes the first 15 years of Australian decimal coins.
If it is more expensive to use the HK office for coins pre 1979 and the images provided are crap then the only reason I can see for using that office is because of the generous grades assigned because nothing else seems to make any sense to use the HK office.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='112999' dateline='1511618793'Hong Kong submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/SubmissionForm/HongKongEnglishForm.pdf
US submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usaform.pdf
The pricing for modern submissions at the HK office is only $1 cheaper than the same submission sent to the US and 1979 is the earliest date can be sent using that submission from HK and yet the US submissions can be as early as 1965, You loose a lot for a lousy dollar especially considering the crap images supplied by the HK office.
Economy and regular submissions from HK are $25 and $45 where the same submissions to the US cost $20 and $32.
So it looks like it is more expensive to use the HK office if your coin is dated before 1979 which includes the first 15 years of Australian decimal coins.
If it is more expensive to use the HK office for coins pre 1979 and the images provided are crap then the only reason I can see for using that office is because of the generous grades assigned because nothing else seems to make any sense to use the HK office.
Large submitters don't pay these rates. That is how Michael Cotton was able to send economy and modern coins cheaper than me (I send my coins to the US and I don't get his special pricing, sadly).
Sorry, it looks like I was wrong for the individual rates. HK is more expensive. Anyway, there are other reasons to submit to HK, such as proximity, saving on shipping, wanting to deliver the coins personally, etc. I would be reluctant to suggest that the "only" reason to send coins to HK is to get generous grades.
Anyway, I just can't see why PCGS would purposefully try to overgrade coins from the HK submission centre. If it's to grow business, why not just overgrade everything?
I suggest you contact HK directly and ask them why you should send your coins to HK instead of the US, as it would be an interesting question (just leave out the accusation that you reckon it's because they are more generous with their grades). I'd be interested to hear their response.
To be completely honest I have grown very very tired of trying to get honest answers from PCGS, They either completely ignore my emails or they give me a line of BS hoping I will believe it and stop asking awkward questions.
Maybe the situation with the boosted grades from the HK office will get sorted out after what feels to me to be a promotional period ends, Time will tell.
I have noticed that one of our members is offering a coin for sale here and it is also mentioned that this particular PCGS graded coin is NOT from a HK submission, You can see what I am getting at here.
I think that many of our members here when looking at a PCGS coin up for sale/auction will discount it if they notice that the coin was part of a HK submission.
There is some evidence that these PCGS coins from HK are suspect But nothing solid as yet But as always where there is smoke there is usually a fire.
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='112998' dateline='1511614808'Quote from: 'trout' pid='112989' dateline='1511601009'This is where the waters get murky.
From what I have read the coins go the HK and are then sent to the US, They are then sent directly from the US back to Australia, So it makes absolutely NO sense that the coins are Not imaged in the States because how the hell can that Not happen when they are encapsulated in the States ( The HK images are of the coins in the slabs, Not unlike the NGC images are) and sent from there.
The coins are sent from HK to the US. Then they're graded and sent back to HK. HK photographs them and ships them back to the owners or holds coins to be picked up. This makes sense, as HK does not charge an additional fee for quality photos and instead does their lower-quality photos. This is how HK can charge cheaper rates.
And with cheaper rates (and crappy photos) the seller gets fewer bids. False economy as saving $10 on a photo doesn't recoup the frequently
BIG hits taken from coins selling cheaply. Of those 50 odd HK purchases of mine I reckon 10 were overgraded (they don't compare with comparison pieces with the MS65 Canberra the worst example and clearly not equal to any of the MS64 Canberra's I have on eye appeal, dings/bagging surface originality etc), 30 were ho-hum to reasonable for grade and 10 were
nice :yahoo:for grade. They were all at a bargain level (like '54 Commemorative in MS65 for under $200 from Cotton) in eBay auctions so price wise I've done well.
Probably 30 of my purchases are Cotton coins so I'm not complaining about the deluge of coins that they have put on the market. Not sure how they can make money with results like a MS64 '44S threepence for $11.85 (even if they had rolls of them at bullion price they still have to subtract ebay and Paypal fees, plus PCGS fees). Maybe Cotton is getting a big enough discount to make it worthwhile or maybe he has enough wins on the few gem grade coins to balance out?
Eric, Are you sure HK modern is 1979? The PCGS Asia (HK) page that comes up states that Modern Non Gold (1955 to present) is 16USD.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='113003' dateline='1511622604'Eric, Are you sure HK modern is 1979? The PCGS Asia (HK) page that comes up states that Modern Non Gold (1955 to present) is 16USD.
Have a look at the links I have provided above Neil, Definitely a 1979 cut off for HK Modern submissions at $15 a pop.
They changed it 5 months ago:
https://www.pcgsasia.com/article/services-and-fees-revised?l=en
I think where the confusion is coming from in regards to the HK coins is when it comes to show gradings, I sent several thousand through HK for grading in the US before I changed contracts to go direct to the US and never had an issue with grade bias (my contract had trueviews not those slab ones too). I did however submit some coins to a HK Show which had onsite grading 2 or so years ago as they were requesting additional coins and gave great rates, these were completed within 2 days of arriving in HK so definitely done there. I'm sure under the pressure of getting a large submissions done under show conditions and timeframes it could potentially lead to an increase in error rates but you would need to find a way to distinguish show coins from the US graded coins in order to justify any claim to this being true.