I was under the impression there was a 1920 no dot London die but while looking though the pcgs pop report I noticed none had been graded. Dose this coin exists?
Quote from: '123456789' pid='112803' dateline='1510674868'I was under the impression there was a 1920 no dot London die but while looking though the pcgs pop report I noticed none had been graded. Dose this coin exists?
None have been found to my knowledge, any that had previously been thought of as being such, have been shown to be a filled die dot below. When I first started collecting varieties some fifteen years ago I purchased a so called London plain penny from arguably our biggest Melbourne dealership, only to find out many years later it was a filled die dot below. There are numerous die markers to be aware of which indicate a filled bottom dot, such as a die crack through "IND", die crack through VSV, diagonal die crack through "A" of COMMONWEALTH, small cud at top of "P" in PENNY, depressions on reverse to the left and below bottom scroll.
I'm sure there are others here who can add to the list.
Hi, the answer is no. None have ever been sighted. As AC notes above even the experts sell them and you can clearly see a dot!!
Guys like Neal Effendi and Stuart Anderson and others have looked through 10's thousands of English Obverse 1920 pennys and never found one.
Neal and Fred covered this this extensively in the CAB December 2013 vol 16 #11 with photos, tables and text covering die markers and so on.
Its a dead issue, there are simply no 'no dot' but plenty with filled dots as AC points out.
Cheers, fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='112813' dateline='1510711594'Hi, the answer is no. None have ever been sighted. As AC notes above even the experts sell them and you can clearly see a dot!!
Guys like Neal Effendi and Stuart Anderson and others have looked through 10's thousands of English Obverse 1920 pennys and never found one.
Neal and Fred covered this this extensively in the CAB December 2013 vol 16 #11 with photos, tables and text covering die markers and so on.
Its a dead issue, there are simply no 'no dot' but plenty with filled dots as AC points out.
Cheers, fred.
Not quite. 10's of thousands of 1920 pennies yes; but 10's of thousands English obverse would mean looking at a few hundred thousand 1920 pennies :shock: Even I'm not that keen. Probably closer to a thousand (on the underside, not above, I do own over 400 and the rest I've seen as images, when I cannot identify the die I always try to get the coin in hand but then always find the 3 die markers or find the seller has included the obverse image of a wrong coin such as a 1919 penny) and I've yet to find any English obverse except the 3 dies known (2 of them Dot Below, being the die mark IND variety and the half as common die chip on E variety). The Dot above English is the hard one to get, but I own a few and have seen images of over 20 more. Have NEVER seen a No Dot English so I'm pretty confident they don't exist even though every 2nd seller of English obverse 1920's claims it's a No Dot, even with a visible dot :@
Got some coins back from PCGS the other day and the 1920 London die I sent came back as
1920 authenticity unverifiable Australia no dot.
Has anyone else had this problem with 1920 London dies. There is no dot visible but just assumed it was a field die or something
Authenticity of what exactly? The variety?
Quote from: '123456789' pid='114754' dateline='1522751927'Got some coins back from PCGS the other day and the 1920 London die I sent came back as
1920 authenticity unverifiable Australia no dot.
Has anyone else had this problem with 1920 London dies. There is no dot visible but just assumed it was a field die or something
I'm surprised by their stupidity. The coin has the rim groove above BRITT. A known marker for one of the 2 Dot Below die pairs, the reverse also has a spur (die clash) in the correct position for this particular die pair. As there has never been a verified No Dot English they are chasing Unicorns by even suggesting it as an unverifiable No Dot. Does that mean they won't slab any 1920 penny with a worn dot? Probably means most mid grade 1920 pennies cannot be slabbed.
Did you use the code 569778 on the submission form?
I did the on line form and could only submit it as a 1920 penny. It would not allow any other details
I also sent a double dot that I described as a 1920 penny but came back with the correct variety
Quote from: '123456789' pid='114761' dateline='1522754539'I did the on line form and could only submit it as a 1920 penny. It would not allow any other details
I also sent a double dot that I described as a 1920 penny but came back with the correct variety
I just tried it and entering the code number works. If you entered the description instead you might have had the problem.
There's one on ebay now for anyone interested: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Penny-Dot-Below-London-Die-PCGS-AU55-Ex-NGC-AU58/113730161047?hash=item1a7ad88997:g:dBAAAOSweuNcw-o6
IMO, that dot below London is a rare coin in that condition, even with the rim ding. It's quite obvious, though, it should never be attempted to cross reference the Sheldon system of grading with the superior ANDA Australian adjectival system (when done correctly).
The reference to AU in the given grade, may imply the coin is at or near almost uncirculated condition to an unwary collector not familiar with the American system, which it is definitely not.
IMO, If that coin was being sold by a reputable ANDA dealer, it would attract a grade of almost EF at best. :angel:
Better than aEF, certainly not AU58 as NGC graded it. AU55 is probably close to reasonable. And yes the use of AU in the slab grading system is very misleading as for example AU50 is no better than our VF to gVF and the AU55 is EF to gEF yet some AU58 graded coins are aUnc or better.
The adjectival system also has its problems as coins that are AU58+ are not really adequately described by adjectives unless you want a mouthful of an adjective (ChoiceaUncplus)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='119327' dateline='1557123737'IMO, that dot below London is a rare coin in that condition, even with the rim ding. It's quite obvious, though, it should never be attempted to cross reference the Sheldon system of grading with the superior ANDA Australian adjectival system (when done correctly).
The reference to AU in the given grade, may imply the coin is at or near almost uncirculated condition to an unwary collector not familiar with the American system, which it is definitely not.
IMO, If that coin was being sold by a reputable ANDA dealer, it would attract a grade of almost EF at best. :angel:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='119328' dateline='1557128359'Better than aEF, certainly not AU58 as NGC graded it. AU55 is probably close to reasonable. And yes the use of AU in the slab grading system is very misleading as for example AU50 is no better than our VF to gVF and the AU55 is EF to gEF yet some AU58 graded coins are aUnc or better.
The adjectival system also has its problems as coins that are AU58+ are not really adequately described by adjectives unless you want a mouthful of an adjective (ChoiceaUncplus)
Overgraded by NGC + PCGS. My opinion is VF, based on VF-Very Fine. The design and lettering is clearly defined, but some SLIGHT wear is evident on the high points of the design and rim border. A few scratches may be seen...COIN GRADING...
[quote pid='119345' dateline='1557383083']
Overgraded by NGC + PCGS. My opinion is VF, based on VF-Very Fine. The design and lettering is clearly defined, but some SLIGHT wear is evident on the high points of the design and rim border. A few scratches may be seen...COIN GRADING...
[/quote]
The ANDA grading photos show EF as 8 full pearls and full bands, this coin has those so better than aEF, VF has the 7-8th pearls indistinct/worn away so certainly better than VF. A low end EF (not aEF but EF) in my book. As to whether PCGS has overgraded I can see your viewpoint. The coin might be low end AU55 or high end AU53, it also troubles me that there is a bit of green in the crown just below TT and on the reverse at least 5 blobs of green at M, A, T, F and the dot between the date and LIA. Will those remain stable or will they grow, how can they be treated in a sealed slab unless you send it back (postage is high as is cleaning costs) to get restoration.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='119346' dateline='1557384443'The ANDA grading photos show EF as 8 full pearls and full bands, this coin has those so better than aEF
Nah! The 7th and 8th pearls look like they've been attacked with an angle grinder, and then someone's thrown the coin at the shed wall in disgust, which produced the rim ding (flat).
Oops, nice coin though!!
I had to look twice to find the rim ding (obverse above GB) and the 7th-8th pearls are quite good enough for an EF. Probably overpriced (Dave has to fund life somehow) but still a nice coin as I've only seen a few that good.
Old school coin grading of the GV Australian Very Fine coin. Slight wear on the centre diamond,7th-8th pearls,kings brow,kings moustache,kings robe and the orb. Slight wear on centre diamond is a/u. Slight wear on centre diamond,orb and 7-8th pearl is ef. Slight wear on centre diamond,7-8th pearls,moustache,robe,kings brow and robe with rim nick ii vf. For the reverse look for wear on top of rim border...Anyway coin grading is and will always be subjective.
Agreed, each person has their own grading standards. I just wish the TPGs were consistent in theirs (both between PCGS and NGC for example as well as within each company) as it is always a lucky dip waiting for purchased slabs to arrive. Sometimes you get 2 coins of the same grade where one is ugly :blackeye: and another is :yahoo:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='119354' dateline='1557463868'Agreed, each person has their own grading standards. I just wish the TPGs were consistent in theirs (both between PCGS and NGC for example as well as within each company) as it is always a lucky dip waiting for purchased slabs to arrive. Sometimes you get 2 coins of the same grade where one is ugly :blackeye: and another is :yahoo:
:i_agree: Would be great if a group of members from this site got together and bankrolled a Slabbed grading service for Australian coins only. Some of you old time Numismatics know who''s who in the Zoo to be a coin grader. Shane Williams tried and copped heaps from people,but at least he had the balls to have a go. Would love to know if NGC + PCGS have people who specialise in Australian predecimal coinage..Could call it APDGS. Australian Pre-Decimal Grading Service. APDGS on A current Affair showing viewers heaps of stuffups by NGC + PCGS. Oops"' i better stop before i start waffling ..LOVE THIS SITE.. :heart:
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='119353' dateline='1557450499'Old school coin grading of the GV Australian Very Fine coin. Slight wear on the centre diamond,7th-8th pearls,kings brow,kings moustache,kings robe and the orb. Slight wear on centre diamond is a/u. Slight wear on centre diamond,orb and 7-8th pearl is ef. Slight wear on centre diamond,7-8th pearls,moustache,robe,kings brow and robe with rim nick ii vf. For the reverse look for wear on top of rim border...Anyway coin grading is and will always be subjective.
Grading is subjective, but it's not as subjective as many people think. If PCGS were very inconsistent, collectors would not be able to predict the grade of raw coins with high accuracy. The fact that collectors can predict the PCGS grade of a raw coin with high accuracy means that PCGS must be reasonably consistent in the way they apply their standard.
Eric
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='119357' dateline='1557550281'Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='119353' dateline='1557450499'Old school coin grading of the GV Australian Very Fine coin. Slight wear on the centre diamond,7th-8th pearls,kings brow,kings moustache,kings robe and the orb. Slight wear on centre diamond is a/u. Slight wear on centre diamond,orb and 7-8th pearl is ef. Slight wear on centre diamond,7-8th pearls,moustache,robe,kings brow and robe with rim nick ii vf. For the reverse look for wear on top of rim border...Anyway coin grading is and will always be subjective.
Grading is subjective, but it's not as subjective as many people think. If PCGS were very inconsistent, collectors would not be able to predict the grade of raw coins with high accuracy. The fact that collectors can predict the PCGS grade of a raw coin with high accuracy means that PCGS must be reasonably consistent in the way they apply
:i_agree: With Nealeffendi. coins come back in the same grade,yet one is nice and the other a dog. That''s not reasonably consistent ERIC. Your 1954 Royal Visit is a dog + you will have to lower the price for it to sell. Also your two 46 Perth shillings have the same grade yet one is a $100 bucks more .Same with your two 1920DD pennies, same grade yet one costs more because it's a better looking coin as is the Perth shilling.....
I don't think ANYONE can predict the grade of a coin with high accuracy. Why do so many coins get cracked out in an attempt for an upgrade? Why do some coins get cracked out several times before the submitter gets the grade he was after (and a much higher value for the same darn coin). Why is there green beans on many Morgans? Why do they even need a re-evaluation service if they got the grade right? Why is there gradeflation at some times and at others (like recently) a swing back to tougher grading such that some will no longer submit after they got such tough grades (Chris at Pacific Rim Coins said just that at Petersham about 8 months back and said he will now sell raw coins as he was so disapointed with not getting the grades he was expecting).
Why can I line up a number of the same coins with the same date and grade and yet have no trouble seeing that some are better than others in not just one field (strike, colour, eye appeal, surface marks etc) but in all fields when comparing the best to the worst be it a box of slabbed crowns, a box of Canberra florins or a box of threepences.
Fellow coin collector up here asked what is special about this Coin,it sold on Ebay last week for $46 which seems a bit high for a English Obv., normally $10-$30 the last few years.
Listed as a 'no dots' but appears to have the die chip on E that Fred/Neale have written about.
Obv has a few dash/dot markers that may be unique...TIA
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Ebay_nov_2020_Obv_28229.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Ebay_nov_2020_Obv_28129.jpg)
Clasic E chip version.
They are harder to find than he "groovy" type.
Yeah $46 is a bit high though.
Thanks Echi,i thought i may be missing something.