One of my pet hates is inexperienced coin sellers or just plain crooks selling say an XF45 coin on ebay and not knowing that the conversion to the Australian standard is VF at best.
I also hate it when said sellers quote the EF grade price from Maccas or Renniks when they should only quote a VF grade price.
I was speaking to a well know dealer (who I will not name as they may not appreciate it). Over the last month we have both had a few new to the hobby buyers question their newly purchased PCGS slabs. In my opinion they have been blantantly ripped off by the practice mentioned above.
Not a great way to enter the hobby!
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='112123' dateline='1507183724'One of my pet hates is inexperienced coin sellers or just plain crooks selling say an XF45 coin on ebay and not knowing that the conversion to the Australian standard is VF at best.
I also hate it when said sellers quote the EF grade price from Maccas or Renniks when they should only quote a VF grade price.
I was speaking to a well know dealer (who I will not name as they may not appreciate it). Over the last month we have both had a few new to the hobby buyers question their newly purchased PCGS slabs. In my opinion they have been blantantly ripped off by the practice mentioned above.
Not a great way to enter the hobby!
It may be a case of the sellers Not understanding the difference between the Sheldon grades and the ANDA grades. As the PCGS and NGC slabs are a relatively concept for Australian collectors this is quite understandable.
The practice of overgrading Raw coins is still a problem for buyers and that includes buying these coins from dealers, Thankfully the introduction of PCGS/NGC graded coins into the market has slowed this practice down somewhat So the odd stuff up by sellers calling a XF45 coin EF is not as bad as things used to be.
Also many collectors now can make their own interpretation of the Sheldon grade on a slab which is Much easier than grading the coin for themselves when presented a coin in a 2x2 by a dealer that has penned his/her inflated grade on the 2x2.
Yes to a point I agree trout. The point is if you do not know what your doing you should not do it. Further to this ANDA as an industry body should be pressuring eBay to do something about it. eBay do not abide by there own rules and the system relies on eBay policing themselves. Complaints to eBay buy ripped off buyers fall on deaf ears as eBay has no real clue. Further to this a huge percentage of sales fall outside the realm of fair trading.
One way to clean a lot of all this up is to have 2 types of sellers. Sellers who are professionals in an industry get a green listing and it is made clear consumer protection is available because they are a business. Everyone else gets a red listing with a buyer beware tag as no consumer protection is available.
This system is obviously not fool proof but at least you have greater confidence the seller knows what they are doing and deceptive advertising is covered by accc laws and buyers have the protection of Australian fair trading. It is all about informing the consumer about who they are dealing with rather than giving the consumer a lucky dip.
At the moment the back yarders who rip people off get away with it. eBay allow it to happen and in the long run (and nobody can convince me otherwise here as I hear it all the time) prices on eBay are going backwards due to the lack of confidence that buyers are not getting what they pay for and the lack of recourse they actually have when push comes to shove.
Now I would like to say in 15 years I have only ever sent one item back on an eBay purchase made from a professional brick and mortar coin dealer. They fixed the problem quickly and professionally. I generally don't buy non packaged products from non professional dealers as from experience I have sent more things back than I have kept as they were not as described or graded. If that is happening to me it scares me the number of people that either accept it or are oblivious of it until they sell.
QuoteYes to a point I agree trout. The point is if you do not know what your doing you should not do it. Further to this ANDA as an industry body should be pressuring eBay to do something about it. eBay do not abide by there own rules and the system relies on eBay policing themselves. Complaints to eBay buy ripped off buyers fall on deaf ears as eBay has no real clue. Further to this a huge percentage of sales fall outside the realm of fair trading.
One way to clean a lot of all this up is to have 2 types of sellers. Sellers who are professionals in an industry get a green listing and it is made clear consumer protection is available because they are a business. Everyone else gets a red listing with a buyer beware tag as no consumer protection is available.
OK Let Me answer this :ok:
For a start eBay and PayPal do have a good seller protection policy in place, probably better than what is in place at most retail outlets and I am not just talking about coins here.
The fair trading rules still apply with anything bought as a "fixed price" sale, I am not sure about auctions But then again Australian coin house auctions are pretty much buyer beware as well.
The part about giving an ANDA dealer a green light and anyone else is downgraded as untrustworthy is not only ridicules it is insulting as far as I am concerned.
There used to be Many ANDA dealers that were involved in blatant rip offs and I am willing to Bet there are still some still doing this and giving someone a Gold Star just because they happen to be a member of a retail organisation is stunningly inappropriate.
I bought a set of Maundy coins from a well known ANDA dealer that were described as Ch/Unc only to have them all come back from PCGS "Boddybagged" as cleaned and one coin was even graded AU "Details", I gave these coins to one of our members here if you need conformation.
I informed this ANDA seller of this and they refused to accept the coins as a return, These are the sort people that you want to give an automatic Gold Star to??.
Ebay already has a seller rating system in place where they are judged by their buyers on each an every sale, Does ANDA?
I agree with Trout that not all ANDA dealers are above board and all you have to do is go to a coin show to see this in practice.
There will always be scumbags and especially in things like coin collecting where there can be big money and an easy buck to be made.
I think it comes down to if you find a good dealer stick with them and be very aware until you work out what they're like. When I do manage to save a few bucks to buy a coin I only buy off people I know and have dealt with before like Eric and PP but in saying that I will buy cheaper things off people to see what they're like to deal with or if a friend says someone is good I'll take their word for it. Yes i have probably missed out on getting some good coins because I'm weary but then I've probably saved my self money and grief by being so, umm, sceptical at times.
What do they say, a fool and his money are soon parted. But it's ok to be less cautious if you have plenty of money to blow.
Just my two bobs worth. IMO one of the major problems we face in relation to grading at the moment is that the TPG's have entered the Australian market using a different system of grading compared to a long held local method recommended by ANDA, and just like we have done since 1973 when the metric system was introduced to Australia, we continue to use and compare both.
Remembering back to when I became interested in the hobby, one of the first things I was made aware of is that US grading was at least one grade lower than ours when comparing adjectival grades, and the same can often be said today if people try to compare adjectival with Sheldon. If we look at coins graded aUNC from of our major auction houses, quite often those coins will grade MS63 at PCGS for example, but rarely lower than AU58. IMO it is simply inviting trouble to expect a consistent conversion comparison, and while stories abound of inferior grades from one or the other, the argument as many have said before is buy the coin not the slab as well as who within ANDA should I see as being reliable.
All this tends to confuse the hell out of many people, particularly new entrants to the hobby who are at the mercy of unscrupulous or misinformed sellers, so it would be good to use just one system but knowing the history of imperial versus metric measurement, it will not happen. Besides, there are far too many good coins available from both sources to deal in just one, and the best way to do this is be informed.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='112134' dateline='1507207657'QuoteYes to a point I agree trout. The point is if you do not know what your doing you should not do it. Further to this ANDA as an industry body should be pressuring eBay to do something about it. eBay do not abide by there own rules and the system relies on eBay policing themselves. Complaints to eBay buy ripped off buyers fall on deaf ears as eBay has no real clue. Further to this a huge percentage of sales fall outside the realm of fair trading.
One way to clean a lot of all this up is to have 2 types of sellers. Sellers who are professionals in an industry get a green listing and it is made clear consumer protection is available because they are a business. Everyone else gets a red listing with a buyer beware tag as no consumer protection is available.
OK Let Me answer this :ok:
For a start eBay and PayPal do have a good seller protection policy in place, probably better than what is in place at most retail outlets and I am not just talking about coins here.
The fair trading rules still apply with anything bought as a "fixed price" sale, I am not sure about auctions But then again Australian coin house auctions are pretty much buyer beware as well.
The part about giving an ANDA dealer a green light and anyone else is downgraded as untrustworthy is not only ridicules it is insulting as far as I am concerned.
There used to be Many ANDA dealers that were involved in blatant rip offs and I am willing to Bet there are still some still doing this and giving someone a Gold Star just because they happen to be a member of a retail organisation is stunningly inappropriate.
I bought a set of Maundy coins from a well known ANDA dealer that were described as Ch/Unc only to have them all come back from PCGS "Boddybagged" as cleaned and one coin was even graded AU "Details", I gave these coins to one of our members here if you need conformation.
I informed this ANDA seller of this and they refused to accept the coins as a return, These are the sort people that you want to give an automatic Gold Star to??.
Ebay already has a seller rating system in place where they are judged by their buyers on each an every sale, Does ANDA?
I am not saying ANDA dealer ahoukd get the gold star, as I am just as cynical of ANDA as you trout. I am saying those that qualify for fair trading protection should get the gold star. Fair trading only covers sales (including auctions) between business and the consumer. It does not cover "private sales". This I found out at a fair trading hearing a friend on mine has years ago. I am not saying hear there are not good private sellers but it is not easy on eBay to see who you are dealing with. The the very least it would be a lot fairer to see who is covered by consumer protection and who is not.
EBay's feedback system is flawed that often you can not take it seriously. New collector gets is Unc penny and not knowing any better give a goodbye feedback. Two year ago later he wants to sell and takes it to several dealers who tell him it EF. The seller deliberately does this several times and gets good feedback when he should be wiped from eBay.
EBay and PayPal protection is not much cop. Try getting a refund when if a seller refuses to give a refund on the unc banknote that has a centrefold or has been washed when the eBay resolution person does not understand or care about your concern. eBay won't shut down auctions that are blantely deceptive.
I am not trying to offend as there are many good honest private sellers here. What I am saying just does not apply to the coin industry only. All I am saying is ebay needs to clean things up
Yes I agree, feebay has a lot to answer for and especially when it comes to dodge dealers be it an ANDA member or not as some of the things being palmed off even blind Freddy can see it's just a con job.
QuoteI am not trying to offend as there are many good honest private sellers here. What I am saying just does not apply to the coin industry only. All I am saying is ebay needs to clean things up (http://www.newcastlecoins.com.au/)
How about we do that with ANDA first THEN we can talk about giving a "Gold Star" to all the ANDA Dealers.
Personally I have already already earned my "Gold Star" due to the way I ethically do business and so do many other eBay sellers including Many ANDA sellers that have proved their honesty and integrity time and time again , To put every ANDA dealer at the same plane as We is BS.
I agree trout. The only cossolation is that ANDA dealers can't avoid fair trading laws whilst they guy having a "garage sale" on eBay can.
We are just not talking the coin industry either. Let's say you buy a second hand TV of eBay and it breaks a week after you purchase. A licensed second had dealer by consumer law has to guarantee it as fit for purpose for a length of time whilst the guy having a garage sale does not as they are not covered by fair trading laws.
With eBay I think it is a Month where you can ask for a return and a refund and I think it is the same for second hand dealers.
Even car dealers don't have to provide a warranty with cars under $10,000 I think.
I would think that places like Gumtree and facebook would be the areas that would be causes for your concern because it's pretty much the Wild West on those selling sites.