Copied verbatim from a document sent to me by Fred
"The Origins of the 1930 Penny.
Fred Lever looks at Fable and Fact.
Early in 2017 I was perturbed to see on our premier coin web site the 'Australian Coin Forum' a string of less than correct advice offered to a newcomer regarding the origin of the 1930 Penny. Part of the uninformed waffle was to re-invent the old fable that visitors to the mint swapped a penny out of their pocket so in 1930 each visitor scored a shiny new 1930 penny and that is where the 1930 pennies came from. One of the references quoted for this piece of wisdom was that bastion of academic research the "Pix" magazine! Case closed!
Now I thought this sort of nonsense had been put to bed decades ago but don't let the facts get in the way of a good romantic story! The worst aspect of the coin forum string was that most collectors adding their "wisdom" don't seem to be fully aware of the research done on the 1930 coin and the die tooling. Much has been published in the last 30 years and if you simply study a minimum of four papers1 you will then understand a lot about the dies supplied and used, the coins that were ordered by the government, what coins possessing which dates were minted and further areas of research. The last paper is actually an article by myself published in CAB where I have tabled a bibliography of articles in the Coin Magazines from the 1960's to 2011. I would have assumed any competent pre decimal collector commenting on the 1930 penny would be well aware of these articles and should also be aware of the journal papers.
My fear is that despite all this evidence chronicled with boring FACTS, the general coin collecting population will refuse to believe and as with other fables in our life prefer the more fanciful versions. There appears to be an attitude to dismiss research as pedantry and a tendency to treat simple explanations as some kind of cover up or conspiracy.
Background, buying a 1930 penny.
In the 1950's coin collectors were either well heeled professionals or some snotty kid like myself who collected coins, cigarette packages, stamps, cards and so forth. Coins were stored in little envelopes stashed in old sewing machine drawers and big time collectors put theirs in wood/felt cabinets that looked more important. The ordinary coin dealers of the time would not have known much about the ins and outs of the Australian Mint operation or even care. It was not until the 60's that anyone outside of a coin association or museum started to make lists of what was available in Australian coins.
Some collectors such as giants like Ray Jewel and others knew only too well that a 1930 dated penny was rare and much is documented about the later search for 1930's and the subsequent explosion of the value of the coin through the 60's and 70's. My personal experience of 1930 pennies started when I could buy a 1930 for about 7 pound ($15) which was too big a hit for a destitute kid and the coin just stayed out of reach until the price was getting into the thousands of dollars where it was just within reach, if you could forgo unnecessary things like food and rent for while!
Where did the fable come from?
It is a fact that examples of mint craft such as proofs or sample coins were handed out on occasions such as: official visits to suck up to the politicians, to be archived in our museums for posterity, ordered by the prominent coin collectors of the time, and well heeled visitors having private collections here and overseas.
In a jest some official with a top hat may have jokingly reached in his pocket when being presented with a proof gift of the latest mint capabilities and swapped out an ordinary penny in order to balance the books. This provides the kernel of an idea and certainly both the Melbourne and Sydney mint in 1920's and later were always eager to show the pollies what each could do in the way of Australians producing our own coinage and further breaking the reliance on Mother England.
My reading of coin related magazines, not trashy women's magazines, and newspaper articles points back to the 1960's when the fable started. I was interested in a readers letter to the A.C.R. mentioning a "Fred Kingston" of Sydney as "the Father of Australian coin collecting". He is quoted as saying that when visiting the mint in 1930 a person would get a brand new penny as a souvenir. Well I vaguely remember a coin dealer down in George St, Sydney and an "A. Kingston" definitely made the "Australian Coin Chart" of the early 60's. In this catalogue Mr. Kingston confidently states other "facts" such as the 1920 dot pennies are simply die flaws, so like me he had his opinions that may or may not be correct. I could understand Fred Kingston simply verbalizing the story about the origin of the 1930 penny as he would not know any thing about the records stored away in the mint and state archives and who cared at that time anyway? A throw away line would give a newspaper reporter the quote needed, paint a charming logical picture to the layman and do no harm publicity wise.
Another favored tale is that a "box" of 1930 pennies was forgotten and used as a handy crate, with a burlap sack for comfort, for old Bert the "vault foreman" to sit on when having his morning cup of tea and lunch. Came the 1940's increased need for coppers to meet the war efforts and the box was discovered and the coins released. Only then was the 1930 penny discovered by coin collectors. Well there are only two things wrong with that. The first is the lack of 1930 production was well known among the early collectors of Australian coins and who made it their business to acquire specimens for their collections. Secondly there happen to be the years 1931 to 1939 during which, according to the Commonwealth statistics, more than 40 million pennies were produced to meet the needs of the country. To satisfy that you would think the "vaults" would have been thoroughly scoured of any odd boxes of pennies lying about and the chances of a 10 year old box remaining would be remote indeed. Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
It was only later when scholars and researchers had the motivation and accessed the records that the plain old simple facts were documented but unfortunately the canard regarding the mint visitors or the forgotten box just gets repeated ad-nauseas in so called well researched articles, books and catalogues. Worse than that, from sheer laziness a writer will repeat the easy canards and then follow up with " but I don't think that happened" but the canard words are still there now engraved a bit deeper in the stone!
What really did happen?
The story is so simple; there is no government conspiracy or Mint cover up. Please be aware that mint records at the time were not chronicled with an eye on researchers 100 years hence. They were simply records of workshop operations so that quantities and movements of metal and tooling in the mint could be controlled to satisfy the audit and accounting processes of the time.
The source of the tooling (the hubs and dies) for 1929, 1930 and 1931 pennies is traced in the aforementioned first three papers and is quite accurately described and known. Coinage was minted in response to Government orders to equal a Pound and Shilling order value and this is all documented. Visitors to the mint via the public door were counted and researchers have documented the numbers and conditions of entry and also documented which press machines and what types of coin were being stamped at the time.
In a nut shell.
Penny coins were required in 1929 by the Government and the proven 1929 dies produced those required plus a balance that was stored ready to be issued if further required. In 1930 when the 1930 dies were available no order had been received for pennies for that year. The mint simply proved the dies were workable by running them for a short spell and in late 1930 pressed the normal proofs and specimens required to satisfy the current need being museums, private collections, politicians ect. The dies were then put back in the die locker to be held and then used later if required or finally to be destroyed on order, as was the current practice with most dated dies.
By 1931 dies with the 1931 date were on hand as well. An order was received for more pennies. There were technical problems in producing the amount needed with the 1931 dies and some usable experimental 1930 reverse dies and both types of obverse dies were used. The mint had the balance of the 1929 dated coin run, some 1930 from the proving runs and the 1930 and 1931 dies enabled them to stamp out the coin weight needed to satisfy the order.
How many minted?
There was no problem having 1929, 1930 and 1931 dated coins released in 1931, as it was quite common to release older dated stock. No one was counting the individual tally of which reverse dates hit the conveyor belt or which obverse design was used, as those factors simply did not matter. I have guessed that any amount of thousands of 1930 were pressed and survival rate statistics point at tens of thousands being the likely figure. You can twist the equations and modeling about to suit your argument. I have detailed in my previous article where the fabled figure of 1200 or 1500 or 3000 comes from but that was all guesswork.
The Fable called out in 1980's.
That is the story. Coins were required, tooling was used as needed or available and the order filled. The Proof and Uncirculated 1930's were distributed from a special stamping run at one time, and an unknown number of 1930 that may have come from a variety of usable dies were thrown into the production box on the other hand and circulated.
Despite a call in the Australian Coin Review in the 1980's for someone who worked at the mint or anyone to recollect purchasing or being gifted or swapping a pocket penny for a new shiny one at the Mint. There was NO response!
You would imagine that out of the supposed thousands of coins handed out someone would have tucked one away to reemerge later on and be fondly remembered. More so you would think that the attribute of being an actual personal souvenir of a mint visit in 1930 would be included in the provenance of authenticity for sale of such a coin particularly in a publicity oriented auction. No such reports were to be on hand in the 1980's survey and I don't think the situation will change in 2017! Excepting for the Proof and Specimen coins, 1930 pennies come from circulation and some have an "English" obverse.
Conclusion.
The Mint received an order for pennies in 1931 and using whatever dies were viable at the time and with existing stock coins dated 1929 and 1930 filled the order. Coins dated 1929, 1930 and 1931 were put into circulation. The number of circulating 1930 minted is unknown. Dies dated 1930 were prepared separately for the "Proof" or "Specimen" coins and these are well known and were presented in the usual ways for the intended Museum or Collector.
As the Halfpenny presses were running through those years to press out 1929, 1930 and 1931 dates to fulfill orders, IF some "souvenir" coin was ever handed out it would most likely to be a HALFPENNY.
For more exact details of the circumstances of the 1930 the four papers as stated in the endnotes to this article are required reading, and of every word in them, before asking any other questions. These articles will lead you to into further general research on Pennies and die tooling such as the articles and papers by Paul Holland and Jon Saxton. Read all of these and so be informed.
As always any sensible comment on this article can be directed to: fred.lever@hotmail.com and will be respectfully responded to."
1. Required reading:
W.J.Mullett: Book, Australian Coinage, An Account of Particular Coins.
John Sharples: Paper, The 1930 Penny, JNNA Vol 3.
Walter Bloom: Paper, The Proof (Specimen) Australian 1930 Penny, JNNA Vol 21.
Fred Lever: Article, Fred's Checklist for a Genuine 1930 Penny, CAB Dec 2011 / Jan2012 V14 no11. (Updated for 2014-2017 but not published.)
University of Melbourne Library has these 3 books listed, written by Mullett, W. J. (William John)
Australian coinage : an account of particular coins / by W.J. Mullett.1991
Melbourne Mint, branch of the Royal Mint : its people / by W.J. Mullett.1993
Melbourne Mint, branch of the Royal Mint : the establishment / by W.J. Mullett.1992
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='110688' dateline='1502154810'Copied verbatim from a document sent to me by Fred
"The Origins of the 1930 Penny.
Fred Lever looks at Fable and Fact.
Early in 2017 I was perturbed to see on our premier coin web site the 'Australian Coin Forum' a string of less than correct advice offered to a newcomer regarding the origin of the 1930 Penny. Part of the uninformed waffle was to re-invent the old fable that visitors to the mint swapped a penny out of their pocket so in 1930 each visitor scored a shiny new 1930 penny and that is where the 1930 pennies came from. One of the references quoted for this piece of wisdom was that bastion of academic research the "Pix" magazine! Case closed!
That's not fair Fred,i said i remember reading in the early 1960's an interview with a retired Mint employee in one of the publications of the time,i think it was the Sydney Sun or Mirror but may have been one of the popular magazines of the day,Pix or Post.
Just be prepared for a re-think on your Opinions when this Interview turns up,you may be correct in one aspect thou.,that's probably when the 'story' of the Mint visitors 1930 Penny handout started,which i may add was accepted fact by almost every Dealer and Numismatist of the Day,including Gilbert Heyde.
Its only really been questioned the 20 years or so,that i know of,but as i wasn't there at the Time who knows if its true or not.
Again,my 2c as a Hobby collector.
Hi Fred, You have given a good first time summary of Circumstantial Evidence...Proof of facts offered as evidence from which other facts are to be Inferred (Contrasted with Direct Evidence)...NO RECORD--NOT GUILTY.
Thanks Basil and Stan, of course there is a difference between the ORIGIN of the penny and HOW it was handed out and my article does blur the lines there and I deserve to be pulled up for that. The problem is an article that covers both subjects adequately then tends to run to book size not a 2 page effort. That's why reading those first references is essential because altogether they add up to a good size book!
The origin of the penny is so mundane, they just made them, but not many. It is a pity that sellers had to come up with a mystique to publicise a coin type that needs no amplification. The 'proofs' were made and distributed in one lot of pressing and some dies knocked out some business strikes later, you guys that have read Mullett, Sharples, Bloom and so many other researchers at that level know that already.
Yes, I can just recall a lot of the paper articles and even a TV spot but I was too stupid back then to make and keep newspaper cuttings on the subject and its all too long ago for an old persons memory like me. Basil, my opinion to be put in question, is only in the HOW the coins got into circulation, the making of the coin is covered in factual detail and it is supposed they were distributed with the rest of the 1931 and 1929 strikings. As far as it being handed out at the door of the mint you only have to use the 'pub test', no one actually recalled that as a fact in the early 'Coin Review' survey, no one ever used that as provenance in description or selling a 1930, you would think that would be the first thing to boast about! So Stan, the method of release is the only part where I have used circumstantial evidence and worse still its absence of evidence, so you are dead right in calling me on that.
However for now, re the Fable, I will stick with my research from my archives where I find Fred Kingston as possibly the starting point of the door fable but will gladly be corrected if someone can come up with a dated reference that will move the person time and educate me. Any body that dribbles on about the 1930's being all forgeries or made somewhere else or for some special purpose or never existing just exposes their immaturity and lack of research!
Thank you for your reasoned points I always learn from those, and will try and be more concise of my subjects in short articles!
Cheers, Fred.
P.S, thanks Nevol.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='110693' dateline='1502189463'Yes, I can just recall a lot of the paper articles and even a TV spot but I was too stupid back then to make and keep newspaper cuttings on the subject and its all too long ago for an old persons memory like me.
Yes Fred,there were dozens of articles on the 1930 Penny(and the 23 half) in the various Sydney Papers as we headed to 2/1966,i can't believe that almost none show up in the Archives of the various publications.
However for now, re the Fable, I will stick with my research from my archives where I find Fred Kingston as possibly the starting point of the door fable but will gladly be corrected if someone can come up with a dated reference that will move the person time and educate me. s!
Cheers, Fred.
P.S, thanks Nevol.
Good measured response Fred,that's whats needed here,some sort of evidence to prove the origins of the Penny.
Its really not a subject i'm interested in but kinda got involved in the original Thread then found i couldn't find the articles i was referring to.
However i'll keep looking as time allows and be back when i find something.
Apparently both the Sydney Sun and Mirror from that era are on Microfiche somewhere so eventually they may find there way onto the Internet.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='110695' dateline='1502192281'Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='110693' dateline='1502189463'Yes, I can just recall a lot of the paper articles and even a TV spot but I was too stupid back then to make and keep newspaper cuttings on the subject and its all too long ago for an old persons memory like me.
[/b]Yes Fred,there were dozens of articles on the 1930 Penny(and the 23 half) in the various Sydney Papers as we headed to 2/1966,i can't believe that almost none show up in the Archives of the various publications.
However for now, re the Fable, I will stick with my research from my archives where I find Fred Kingston as possibly the starting point of the door fable but will gladly be corrected if someone can come up with a dated reference that will move the person time and educate me. s!
Cheers, Fred.
P.S, thanks Nevol.
Good measured response Fred,that's whats needed here,some sort of evidence to prove the origins of the Penny.
Its really not a subject i'm interested in but kinda got involved in the original Thread then found i couldn't find the articles i was referring to.
However i'll keep looking as time allows and be back when i find something.
Apparently both the Sydney Sun and Mirror from that era are on Microfiche somewhere so eventually they may find there way onto the Internet.
All good Basil + Fred. Keep investigating the circumstantial trail that will one day lead you to direct evidence in the form of substantiated records and documents..:idea:
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='110696' dateline='1502229859'All good Basil + Fred. Keep investigating the circumstantial trail that will one day lead you to direct evidence in the form of substantiated records and documents..:idea:
One point i didn't make was that some articles in the 1960's/70's said "VIP Visitors" were given a 1930 Penny,if this is correct(or partly correct) then there would have been only a handful given out,the rest would have to be distributed into circulation either by normal Mint procedures or out of a Mint Employee's pocket in the late 1930's.
I'll have to find some newspaper articles to verify what i've posted but they're out there somewhere.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='110697' dateline='1502236618'Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='110696' dateline='1502229859'All good Basil + Fred. Keep investigating the circumstantial trail that will one day lead you to direct evidence in the form of substantiated records and documents..:idea:
One point i didn't make was that some articles in the 1960's/70's said "VIP Visitors" were given a 1930 Penny,if this is correct(or partly correct) then there would have been only a handful given out,the rest would have to be distributed into circulation either by normal Mint procedures or out of a Mint Employee's pocket in the late 1930's.
I'll have to find some newspaper articles to verify what i've posted but they're out there somewhere.
A newspaper article would be another notch in your investigation. Unfortunately the article would be unsubstantial without the presence of a authentic uncirculated 1930 penny.:idea:
Hi Basil and Stan, yes some of that VIP stuff may come from the fact that a few collectors made it their business to get uncirculated samples for their private collections of ALL Australian coins and would do that on a visit whether it be through the front door or by invitation by via mint management for some numismatic club "do". These guys were always well off, being Doctors, Engineers or well connected in the field and so were treated with deference. Some of the private collections are amazing in their depth. As you read about numismatics from the 1800's in Australia through the 1900's you find a lot of these collections bequeathed to the nation and reside in Museums ect. There were always politicians to cosy up to as well, as the Mints tried to get grants and traction and a bright shiny coin set was always sucker bait for that. Because of the way the 1930's were minted I doubt that there was much opportunity for that to happen. The proofing run, if I may call it that, is a different matter and is so well documented that I believe that all of those are known by their first name, reside in museums, mint collections and some very exceptional private collections. You see those coins pop up from time to time in the big auctions as "the finest known" or "specimen quality" and you and I can jostle each other in the rush to buy one...not! I could only afford a worn dinged one and glad I bought it when I did. !930's are only found in a/ the "proof run" grade or b/ circulated grade up to EF+ sort of. No, no one has an UNC from a door swap!
Oh, separate issue, members have permission from me to use the article posted by Nevol in this thread in references if they wish, in the site Wiki is fine, just acknowledge my authorship thanks.
Cheers, Fred.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='110697' dateline='1502236618'Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='110696' dateline='1502229859'All good Basil + Fred. Keep investigating the circumstantial trail that will one day lead you to direct evidence in the form of substantiated records and documents..:idea:
One point i didn't make was that some articles in the 1960's/70's said "VIP Visitors" were given a 1930 Penny,if this is correct(or partly correct) then there would have been only a handful given out,the rest would have to be distributed into circulation either by normal Mint procedures or out of a Mint Employee's pocket in the late 1930's.
I'll have to find some newspaper articles to verify what i've posted but they're out there somewhere.
If VIPs were given a 1930 penny then surely a good number of their estates would have that penny in their collection? Or an entry in their diary noting the gift? Or a thank you letter acknowledging the gift would have been sent to the Mint? (with a carbon copy kept by the VIPs secretary/Aide De Camp and a notation in the mint records recording receipt of the thank you letter?). And why the heck would the mint official hand out a lousy circulation penny to a VIP when they could hand out proof coins, medallions or similar as a memento of the mint?
Please apply Occams Razor (or just plain common sense) to the veracity of the newspapers claims and dismiss them as about as reliable as newspaper reports of Nessie and alien sightings.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='110714' dateline='1502272348'If VIPs were given a 1930 penny then surely a good number of their estates would have that penny in their collection? Or an entry in their diary noting the gift? Or a thank you letter acknowledging the gift would have been sent to the Mint? (with a carbon copy kept by the VIPs secretary/Aide De Camp and a notation in the mint records recording receipt of the thank you letter?). And why the heck would the mint official hand out a lousy circulation penny to a VIP when they could hand out proof coins, medallions or similar as a memento of the mint?
Please apply Occams Razor (or just plain common sense) to the veracity of the newspapers claims and dismiss them as about as reliable as newspaper reports of Nessie and alien sightings.
That's your opinion Neal,nothing more,you may well be right,also you may well be wrong but geez its a very flimsy argument when you have to ridicule someone else's point of view and support it with a load of codswallop.
The answer to all this is some facts or evidence,as i posted earlier there are dozens of articles on the origins of the 1930 Penny from the 1960/70's,someone must have the skill and time to access them.
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='110699' dateline='1502243062'A newspaper article would be another notch in your investigation. Unfortunately the article would be unsubstantial without the presence of a authentic uncirculated 1930 penny.:idea:
No problem,just give the Chinese another Year or so and there will be plenty around.LOL
I made the point in the other Thread who knows whats out there in the Ether,i reckon Kerry Packers 1930 Pennies are a good grade and i reckon they are still in a Packer family safe somewhere but when they are surrounded by Gold bars worth hundred of thousands of $ they would be a novelty,not an heirloom.
Apart from the business about a Box of Pennies being found in the Mint and then distributed,i haven't seen or heard that before,there is nothing new in this Thread. The origins of the 1930 penny were extensively covered in the 1960's,every self appointed expert trying to make a name for himself wrote an article on the 1930 Penny,State Numismatic Societies Newletters,Coin Club/Dealer Newsletters and the normal daily Papers and Magazines,the Stamp/Coin Dealer that talked to us for 1 Period a week at School 'ghosted' several articles that were published in the Aust. Womens Weekly as we headed to 02/1966,people couldn't get enough INFO on the rare pre.Dec Coins,circulations soared. .Almost every Week there was an article on the 1930 Penny.I can't explain why almost none of this material is showing in searches or being found.
The story on the Mint gifting or swapping 1930 Pennies was accepted as fact at this time as it,AFAIK,came from an Interview with a former Mint employee.However,it was pointed out at the time this would only account for a few Pennies,by the 1960's there were dozens found,all circulated.
My Father was a Teenager during the late 1920's,he use to tell horrific stories of the times,men going door to door begging for a crust of stale Bread for eg,crime and suicide rates went thru. the roof but the statistics were suppressed by the Govt.His Father was a School teacher and they used to feed the Kids at School because most Parents couldn't.Point being 99% of the population wouldn't have a visit to the Mint on the agenda,the number of Visitors would be miniscule,the most likely scenario is VIP's/Dignitaries were given or swapped a Penny which means there would have been only a handful of Unc. Coins out here. How the rest of the Mint run escaped into circulation is anyones guess.
Thats how myself and my mentors at the time saw it but as i wasn't alive in 1930 i'm just going on what i was told and read,if its it wrong fine,who cares,but at least throw up some proof and facts,not opinion pieces that join a few dots,rubbish and disregard other peoples opinions,and come to a conclusion to suit.
My final Post on the subject until i can find the articles i remember reading back in the 1960's.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='110723' dateline='1502324763'Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='110699' dateline='1502243062'A newspaper article would be another notch in your investigation. Unfortunately the article would be unsubstantial without the presence of a authentic uncirculated 1930 penny.:idea:
No problem,just give the Chinese another Year or so and there will be plenty around.LOL
I made the point in the other Thread who knows whats out there in the Ether,i reckon Kerry Packers 1930 Pennies are a good grade and i reckon they are still in a Packer family safe somewhere but when they are surrounded by Gold bars worth hundred of thousands of $ they would be a novelty,not an heirloom.
Apart from the business about a Box of Pennies being found in the Mint and then distributed,i haven't seen or heard that before,there is nothing new in this Thread. The origins of the 1930 penny were extensively covered in the 1960's,every self appointed expert trying to make a name for himself wrote an article on the 1930 Penny,State Numismatic Societies Newletters,Coin Club/Dealer Newsletters and the normal daily Papers and Magazines,the Stamp/Coin Dealer that talked to us for 1 Period a week at School 'ghosted' several articles that were published in the Aust. Womens Weekly as we headed to 02/1966,people couldn't get enough INFO on the rare pre.Dec Coins,circulations soared. .Almost every Week there was an article on the 1930 Penny.I can't explain why almost none of this material is showing in searches or being found.
The story on the Mint gifting or swapping 1930 Pennies was accepted as fact at this time as it,AFAIK,came from an Interview with a former Mint employee.However,it was pointed out at the time this would only account for a few Pennies,by the 1960's there were dozens found,all circulated.
My Father was a Teenager during the late 1920's,he use to tell horrific stories of the times,men going door to door begging for a crust of stale Bread for eg,crime and suicide rates went thru. the roof but the statistics were suppressed by the Govt.His Father was a School teacher and they used to feed the Kids at School because most Parents couldn't.Point being 99% of the population wouldn't have a visit to the Mint on the agenda,the number of Visitors would be miniscule,the most likely scenario is VIP's/Dignitaries were given or swapped a Penny which means there would have been only a handful of Unc. Coins out here. How the rest of the Mint run escaped into circulation is anyones guess.
Thats how myself and my mentors at the time saw it but as i wasn't alive in 1930 i'm just going on what i was told and read,if its it wrong fine,who cares,but at least throw up some proof and facts,not opinion pieces that join a few dots,rubbish and disregard other peoples opinions,and come to a conclusion to suit.
My final Post on the subject until i can find the articles i remember reading back in the 1960's.
:wavemulticolor::wavemulticolor::wavemulticolor::wavemulticolor::wavemulticolor:
Hi all, I'm working on another longer article on the 1930 penny and the die varieties. I already have about 20 images of 1930 coins that I am using as a comparison tool. Most of these are from the usual suspects, the Museums, Google, Journals, ACR and CAB Magazines, friends and so on. The Specimens were easy to image and the high grade auction images I also have, its the bread and butter coins like mine i'd like to add to my list. If not an image, just a glass on the reverse to pick up, 1/ flat bottomed or curved feet on letters, any "doubling" of lettering, 3/ the so called "overdate" hub error (2 under the 3), 4/ the Rim error being a "dot" beside a dentil above the "F" of the word OF on the reverse. My 1930 has both overdate and dentil dot indicating the particular die it came from, others don't have these 2 markers so coming from another die. I have about 100 date related references to the 1930 penny from 1930 to the present in my archive that come from the coin Journals like NAA and the magazines from start to today but would like to hear about any obscure reference like a newspaper column.
If anybody has access to a coin and can take a pix or has a file image I would appreciate it. I am not interested in knowing who has a 1930 coin just the image. I'm only interested in building up my image file and extending those reverse markers.
Cheers, Fred.
Hi Fred
Just a question:
I've seen 1930 pennies with the 31 dropped 1 Indian die obverse.
What are your thoughts ?
Would you consider these genuine ?
Hi, I have not started on recognising the 7 obverse dies that were used in the two 1930 striking runs!
I have done a lot of work on the 1931 pressing run and have bits of information here and there about the obverses but have not got my head around it or tied any of it together. As 7 obverse dies were used and they may have come from different root hubs there is no reason to be surprised to find differences. As I go along I will bring myself up to speed with the obverse geography and understand better what obverse I am looking at. As for "genuine" well, I had my test points in that article some years ago that sorted out the sheep from the goats as far as the reverse went. All I can say at the moment is that 1930 pennies have been validated with both "Indian" and "English" obverses (for want of a better term) just like the 1931 have but not described as having an obverse from a certain root hub derivation. There's a lot more work to be done. I don't think I answered your question, sorry!
Fred.
I notice IAG has a "6 pearls" 1930 up for Auction on Sunday.I think this is the same Coin they listed a few years ago.
http://www.iagauctions.com/pba/index.php?fcategory=all&fgrade=all&festimate=5&submit=%C2%A0Search
Ta Basil, I'll have look at it and see if I recognise it.
Fred.
Had a look, nice coin, bit of a scratch there on the King, about VF grade have not seen it before.
Fred.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='111575' dateline='1505173100'I notice IAG has a "6 pearls" 1930 up for Auction on Sunday.I think this is the same Coin they listed a few years ago.
http://www.iagauctions.com/pba/index.php?fcategory=all&fgrade=all&festimate=5&submit=%C2%A0Search
Don't think it's a gradable coin with that scratch so the estimate is way
too high IMO
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='111598' dateline='1505264493'Don't think it's a gradable coin with that scratch so the estimate is way
too high IMO
Yeah,they really push the value/grade for high end Coins hoping someone will bite.
They had a real good one around 2011/12,listed as Circulated/Aunc.(or something like that) with an estimate of around A$50,000(?) but it was withdrawn for sale for some reason.Didn't show in Google.
There are 2 1930's listed,i thought Fred might want to copy the Pics. for his records.
Thanks Basil, done that have accumulated about 50 images so far!
Fred.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='111603' dateline='1505271724'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='111598' dateline='1505264493'Don't think it's a gradable coin with that scratch so the estimate is way
too high IMO
Yeah,they really push the value/grade for high end Coins hoping someone will bite.
They had a real good one around 2011/12,listed as Circulated/Aunc.(or something like that) with an estimate of around A$50,000(?) but it was withdrawn for sale for some reason.Didn't show in Google.
There are 2 1930's listed,i thought Fred might want to copy the Pics. for his records.
They actually estimated it at $500,000 and called it the finest known. I'd say $50,000 is closer to the mark for that coin, I wouldn't have paid $50,000 for it but someone might have.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='111425' dateline='1504731878'All I can say at the moment is that 1930 pennies have been validated with both "Indian" and "English" obverses
From my reading on the subject, I think it's extraordinary that the known London obverse coins only number two or three, but at least two of these grade around gVF or slightly better. Have no idea what the third coin grades at, or if indeed there are others, but when you consider the small number of higher grade coins among the much larger population (1500?) of Indian obverse 30's, how is it that such a small population of London obverse 1930 pennies grade so high?
If there were more out in the pond, surely they would have been recognised for what they are by now!
Any thoughts?
Hm, hard to say - the statistician would say that it's probably too small a sample size to read anything into it, but how long was it until it was known that there were two obverses? Probably they were pulled from circulation as regular 1930 pennies and it was just lucky they were better than average.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are more out there that people are being tight-lipped about though. I assume the London obverse was discovered in the 1960s (if not that decade then certainly one when news spread more slowly) - it wouldn't have been hard for a keen-eyed collector to buy up a few before they were common knowledge.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='112273' dateline='1507715885'I wouldn't be surprised if there are more out there that people are being tight-lipped about though. I assume the London obverse was discovered in the 1960s (if not that decade then certainly one when news spread more slowly) - it wouldn't have been hard for a keen-eyed collector to buy up a few before they were common knowledge.
As i posted previously the Coin/Stamp Dealer we had for a Period a Week at High School around 1964-1968 said Overseas Dealers Dealers,particulary large USA based ones,had their agents buying up 1930 Pennies during those years.Why more don't show up at PCGS i can't explain,perhaps they didn't get as many Coins as Local Dealers believed as the cat was well and truly out of the bag on the rarity of the 1930 by the mid to late 1960's.
Maybe in a few years a few more sleepers might emerge as older collectors pass but then a few might get scrapped as not all family members carry on collecting and just get rid of what has taken someone years to gather. Mum ask the other day what she should do if anything happened to me and I told her to contact a few of the forum members as their numbers are in my phone and I'll have to tell my brother as well and in a few years tell his kids as they're the one's that will end up with all my stuff. Sorry for going off track but it was just a thought on sleeper and how many 1930's might be still out there.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='112273' dateline='1507715885'Hm, hard to say - the statistician would say that it's probably too small a sample size to read anything into it, but how long was it until it was known that there were two obverses? Probably they were pulled from circulation as regular 1930 pennies and it was just lucky they were better than average.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are more out there that people are being tight-lipped about though. I assume the London obverse was discovered in the 1960s (if not that decade then certainly one when news spread more slowly) - it wouldn't have been hard for a keen-eyed collector to buy up a few before they were common knowledge.
If that were possible it would require that collector to visit just about every auction during the 1960s plus visit the dealers and swap meets on a regular basis to only miss the 3 known examples (plus any still not detected in collections).
Now it is possible that the bag with the 1930 English in it were all sent to a country town and thus they never ended up being circulated as much as they would in the city. Might even be an old collection in that district with a few examples of the English and if the original collector passed them on to someone who wasn't a collector (but retains them as a memento of their late father/grandfather) then the collection might not have been looked at in the past 50 years.
For example 2 months back I purchased a nice 1920 ./ English off a couple about to go grey nomading and they had retained that collection tucked away for decades as the relative who left it to them had collected it in regional NSW where he was living back in the 1940s. They were not collectors but had retained the coins and other stuff (like mineral samples) as heirlooms and were only selling as they had nowhere to store coins in the caravan they were preparing.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='112265' dateline='1507705949'Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='111425' dateline='1504731878'All I can say at the moment is that 1930 pennies have been validated with both "Indian" and "English" obverses
From my reading on the subject, I think it's extraordinary that the known London obverse coins only number two or three, but at least two of these grade around gVF or slightly better. Have no idea what the third coin grades at, or if indeed there are others, but when you consider the small number of higher grade coins among the much larger population (1500?) of Indian obverse 30's, how is it that such a small population of London obverse 1930 pennies grade so high?
If there were more out in the pond, surely they would have been recognised for what they are by now!
Any thoughts?
Yeah I wonder about that, pennies have quite a high survival rate especially so considering the 1930 penny was known for over 2 decades before they were withdrawn so even if we put the survival rate at 50%, that means 3 surviving examples, possibly another 5 at most not discovered (as in 1930 pennies which are known but never checked if they were London die) meant that approx. 16 were struck - I wonder why so few would be struck?
There are other examples of this but we rarely get to know the stories behind them unlike US coins where the mints seem to have kept much better records.
It's true that accurate record keeping in the past would solve many mysteries. I wonder if as you say wwwww, for whatever reason a small mintage of London obverses were minted and released much later, or even well after the 1930 penny gained universal notoriety. It could explain why they would have been plucked from circulation still with plenty of meat on the bone?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='112281' dateline='1507722772'If that were possible it would require that collector to visit just about every auction during the 1960s plus visit the dealers and swap meets on a regular basis to only miss the 3 known examples (plus any still not detected in collections).
Could have been known about earlier than the 1960s - I'm sure even today there are varieties of coins that few know about and who a handful are snapping up without anyone noticing.
Most examples ending up in some out-of-the-way place is definitely a possibility though - did any other countries use Australian coins in the 1930s or 1940s? Possibly a lot got sent to New Zealand in the 1930s (before they got their own bronze in 1940) and they ended up getting withdrawn and destroyed.
Hi Guys, I do suspect there are more 1930 English in collections. As Neal points out coins can sit in collections and the fine points of the coin not known about. I wonder if every 1930 in a collection has been removed turned over and the obverse checked? In my records I note some appearances of English 1930, John Beck at Downies 1966, Nobles auction 1998, one sold by auction I cant quite remember but not so long ago as it was in a web auction, probably Downies. David Briggs notes 3 known, shows one of them in his book, its a bit ratty looking and is the one that appeared in the Downies auction I believe as the images are very similar.
I feel a bit sick, as decades ago I was handed a 1930 and by eye the reverse looked ok, nice VF, then I looked at the obverse and it was English and I hesitated as I had never seen a 1930 with an English obverse. The coin was handed back with the question lingering in the air. It may have been a 1933-36 altered date or it may have been real. I could have written out a cheque and chanced it but lost the opportunity through ignorance.
We do know that of the hundreds of dies that were scrapped as useless through 1920/1930/1931, 3 x 1930 date reverses and 4 obverses were issued to the presses in august 1931 and one of the obverses #78 was from a 21 hub and thus English. How could so few have been pressed? This is pure speculation but imagine running a press and a die say #74 fails, you shut down the press and change to die #78. You start up just get going and something else happens, the reverse die breaks, the drive belt breaks off the line shaft who knows and that press is offline. The job order get filled by another press and its all over. Simple, no need to make up complex reasons just how it goes in the press shop. I have pulled all the facts together and have submitted a longer 1930 article to CAB covering the myths and getting that out of the way have done a bit on the dies used and also started into the die markers that point toward identifying the reverse dies S74, S75 and S76.
Cheers,Fred.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='112285' dateline='1507775395'It's true that accurate record keeping in the past would solve many mysteries. I wonder if as you say wwwww, for whatever reason a small mintage of London obverses were minted and released much later, or even well after the 1930 penny gained universal notoriety. It could explain why they would have been plucked from circulation still with plenty of meat on the bone?
The Londons aren't significantly better than the Indians, especially with such a small sample size, I don't think we have enough data to draw any conclusions like that. Unfortunately we will probably never know the answer.
I have just finished reading, "The 1930 PENNY, the final words & Die Varieties." by Fred Lever in the latest edition of C&B magazine.
Without doubt this articles dispels all Myths, Fables & Confusion.
Complete with photos, a few Tables which explain coin makers die marks explanations of each.
What to look for in the difference between real & fake coins.
No longer will the story , the coins were handed out to visitors or someone found a box of them in the back of the vault be tolerated.
If someone wants to know the complete explanation & story behind the 1930 penny this is the article to be read.
This needs to be put on Wikipedia.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='113351' dateline='1513581249'I have just finished reading, "The 1930 PENNY, the final words & Die Varieties." by Fred Lever in the latest edition of C&B magazine.
Without doubt this articles dispels all Myths, Fables & Confusion.
Complete with photos, a few Tables which explain coin makers die marks explanations of each.
What to look for in the difference between real & fake coins.
No longer will the story , the coins were handed out to visitors or someone found a box of them in the back of the vault be tolerated.
If someone wants to know the complete explanation & story behind the 1930 penny this is the article to be read.
This needs to be put on Wikipedia.
Absolutely :stop: