I recently sold a coin on eBay and when I was getting it sorted so that I could post it I noticed that the address was local.
I emailed the buyer letting him know that I could drop the coin off when I came into town so that he could save on the postage, He said No Worries so I dropped it off the next day.
While I was dropping the coin off he wanted to show me his collection (As we all do) and he had a nice collection of Decimals and the beginnings of a pre decimal collection.
All the coins were neatly inserted into pages (No 2x2 or saflip) and behind each of the pages was a paper sheet with all the coin descriptions to match the slots the coins were put into.
The album covers were PVC and so were the pages the coins were placed into so I mentioned that these type of albums will eventually Destroy his coins.
He wasn't happy about that statement and mentioned that the albums were recommended by a coin dealer that he frequently used So they should be "Fit for Purpose" and he probably thought that I was talking Rubbish.
It is a real shame because he has put an awful lot of effort into putting his collections together only to have the coins ruined eventually because some Dealer has given him a "Bum Steer" with the PVC albums.
I have a spare PP album here and I am thinking of dropping it off for him with 20-30 coin pages and a selection of 2x2's and saflips so that he can save at least some of his coins.
Some people are guided by so called knowledgeable dealers who are just out to make a buck.
Nice gesture Trout, I am sure he would appreciate it in time.
:yeah_what_she_said:
That's very nice of you!
How can you tell whether an album is made out of PVC? I've never been able to tell the difference between them, and I think it's down to luck that I haven't lost any coins because of it. My collection is over 20 years old, so I've had plenty of time to encounter PVC damage, but fortunately, the worst I've got is a little bit of toning on the $1 and $2 coins.
A lot of Aussie Dealers sell only the PVC type pages and albums. Some have PVC free pages for 2x2's, but that's all.
QuoteHow can you tell whether an album is made out of PVC?
For Me it is normally the smell, PVC has a distinctive odour to it.
PVC is also usually very soft, flexible and shiny.
QuoteSome people are guided by so called knowledgeable dealers who are just out to make a buck.
I was guided by a knowledgeable dealer to replace my PVC albums with a Far safer system of coin storage, Much appreciated PP :good:
QuoteNice gesture Trout, I am sure he would appreciate it in time.
I have done this on a couple of other occasions and the cost isn't huge But the satisfaction of saving someone's Prized collection is Immense.
QuoteA lot of Aussie Dealers sell only the PVC type pages and albums. Some have PVC free pages for 2x2's, but that's all.
Bastards, It's Not as if PVC damage is a Brand new discovery and these people that still sell this garbage should be ashamed of themselves :dodgy:
He has a point though, under Australian Consumer Law products and services supplied by Australian businesses must be fit for purpose for the reasonable lifetime of the product. Legally when the coins are eventually damaged he can claim the costs to remove the PVC and diminished value from the dealer.
This issue of the PVC coin storage systems damaging the coins has been around the traps for a long time now and IMHO it is inexcusable for dealers to sell these without warning collectors about the hazards of using the PVC and explaining the damage that can be done to their coins.
If a collector buys the PVC albums/pages knowing full well that it will eventually ruin his/her coins then fair enough But I highly doubt that the vast majority of collectors would knowingly subject their collections to any sort of damage and are buying these horrors out of ignorance.
Yes whoever sells these PVC albums is making a profit But at what cost ?
An album full of ruined coins is NOT something that would spur any further interest in collecting and this can only have a detrimental effect on future coin sales.
I sell more Renniks style coin albums and pages to suit than any other other album and coin page I sell. Yes I do stock Purple Penny albums and pages. I also stock or can get a range of lighthouse albums. I do not recommend PVC albums. I recommend at a minimum to use 2x2's but PVC albums do have a place.
Why do I sell more renniks style albums than anything else.......because they are cheaper than most other options. By the time you spend $25 on the binder, $8.50 on the sleeves and $60.00 on the 2x2's to fill all the pages it works out a lot more expense. Most buyers of the renniks style albums will not spend the money on a more expensive system. Keep in mind most of the buyers of these albums are storing junk work coin or coin pulled from change or are for kids.
When someone comes into my shop and asks for a coin album, the first question I ask is "what are you storing". The reply to this will then gauge what system I will try to sell. It all boils down then to how serious the collector is, the value of the coin they are going to store and the budget of the collector.
Now if someone says to me they want to store uncirculated coin or high value items I steer them towards a 2x2 system at the very least. If some says to me they are storing things from change or junk world coin (that probably has less value than the album) then I am happy to sell a renniks style album. Most people after plastic pages seem to know what they are after as they already have the album they go in so few questions are asked then.
The fit for purpose test does apply to coin albums. I think it would be hard to argue a $30.00 album to store $30 of junk coin was not "fit for this purpose" as the next step up in storage would far exceed the value of coins the average accumulator (as opposed to collector) would have. If a renniks album was not fit for purpose for the average accumulator then a huge range of products from lighthouse, dansco, Whitman etc that do not meet archival quality standards would also fail a "fit for purpose" test. If a customer balks at spending $30.00 on a coin album (which a lot do) then their coins stay in the tin they already have.
Yes dealers have a reasonability to sell a product that has the best fit for the need of their customer where possible. I hear all the arguments posed above and you may not agree with this but the $30 renniks pvc album is often the best fit for the customer given all my arguments above. I have sold renniks coin albums and PVC pages to quite a number of members of this forum that are respected here and are educated in what systems are available. Why did they buy these?....because they storage system fit the purpose of what they needed.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='109926' dateline='1499392415'He has a point though, under Australian Consumer Law products and services supplied by Australian businesses must be fit for purpose for the reasonable lifetime of the product. Legally when the coins are eventually damaged he can claim the costs to remove the PVC and diminished value from the dealer.
Assuming that the dealer is still trading in 10 or 20 years (or more) (especially with the ongoing demise of most brick and mortar dealers) and assuming that the buyer kept receipts and assuming that the buyer can prove that the sheets/albums are specifically identified on the receipt by the brand and stock number rather than just a generic description of "album" or "coin sheets". Also how many times is the damage found when the albums are disposed of in estate sales (do the heirs have the ability to make a claim?).
Thank goodness I now only put my coins in PP supplied Saflips.:give_heart:
At least Bigfellani honestly advises his clients of the option with cheap PVC or expensive archival storage. I still have a few hundred pages of cheapy stuff stored in PVC by a couple of dealers who were "untruthful" when I purchased those pages years ago.
Yeah.. But...
PVC film is currently dearer than BoPET or PP, and prices are moving up. So there is no justification in a substantial premium for a product that won't destroy your coins.
Except, that is, that PVC comes out of China by the shipload with very small manufacturing costs, meaning massive windfall profits for the purveyors of this crap. Something they can't match on the smaller production volumes for the better product. Except, well, they can... UltraPro manages retail prices of 30 cents!
Sorry, but the whole storage market is a massive con controlled by a small number of 'manufacturers'.
And if someone really has coins which are worthless, there are free options, which I've detailed several times previously. All they need is a heat sealer.
Hi all,
My first post, thank you all for such a wonderful resource for collectors.
I recently rekindled my interest in collecting and pulled my old folders out of storage for the first time in 25 years. Unfortunately, all the coins in the pvc albums were green.
I'm been removing the PVC residue with acetone and putting the coins in a recently purchased replacement album (thinking that it must be PVC free, times have changed?).
Based on this thread, I reckon it also contains PVC (it smells, it's soft)!
So I'll revisit my storage options for the better coins. It's a shame PVC content in an album isn't more clearly communicated prior to sale so new collectors can make an informed decision.
-eccles
:welcome: to the forum Eccles!
Great to see you posting.
I'm sure we'll be able to find lots of Spike Milligan references for you!
"He's fallen in the water!" NOT, but his coins have fallen in the acetone.
OK that is Little Jim but, for the record, Little Jim lives in Eccles's boot and is thought to be his nephew.
Goon show catchphrases. (http://www.catchphrases.info/thegoonshow.php)
Oh, and welcome to the forum.
Thank you for the kind welcome, and please, have a gorilla!
Here is a photo of some of the coins from the PVC album.
http://imgur.com/a/6kUIX
-eccles
Quote from: 'eccles' pid='110433' dateline='1501302628'....... and please, have a gorilla!
.... I have been trying to give them up. :laugh2:
Eeek, that PVC .... no wonder you've done the acetone option, hoping it works out well for you. I near cried when I saw the 73!
Quote from: 'eccles' pid='110433' dateline='1501302628'Here is a photo of some of the coins from the PVC album.
(http://i.imgur.com/Nv93hzs.jpg)
Notice how I used img tags to insert the actual pic, rather than just a link to the page containing it? Its usually a better way. Just remember to take them out of any replies or we get loads of pic spam.
Which, come to think of it, may be appropriate. Gotta have some :spamguy: to go with the finch and chimps you put under the gorilla, right? ;)
Oh, and :welcome: to the forum. Sorry for your loss. :(
The Purple Penny have made great strides in bringing safe, non-PVC coin display systems to Australia. They sell Mylar flips, hard plastic albums for slabs, and safe plastic albums for 2x2s as well. Check 'em out.
Purple penny does great products. I stock them and Kathryn is easy to deal with. What we need is non pvc coin pages that can be used without 2x2s similar to the pvc ones with an album to suit. This would then compete against the renniks style albums.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='110444' dateline='1501321093'Purple penny does great products. I stock them and Kathryn is easy to deal with. What we need is non pvc coin pages that can be used without 2x2s similar to the pvc ones with an album to suit. This would then compete against the renniks style albums.
The PP albums are fantastic and a great storage option.
Kathryn has a starter pack with enough pages to be able to store 400 coins for $100, That's 25c per coin which when you think of it is pretty good value considering that it's about 20c per coin just to put them in a self adhesive 2x2 without the album :good:
I have had the PP albums for a while now and I am not Easy on my gear But the albums are as good today as when I first bought them.
NO PVC damage whatsoever and I have had coins that were stored in the PP albums graded by PCGS that have come back PR69-70 So NO damage comes to the coins stored in these albums either.
I have a couple of the Mini albums that have the flaps at the top of the pockets that would probably hold coins without the need for a 2x2 or saflip, These may suit the beginner collector as they can store 48 coins.
Thanks all for the suggestions! I'll be checking out Purple Penny for sure. :good:
Thanks also for the image education Fulvio, I did read the how to on images but somehow missed that bit
-eccles
Thanks all for the suggestions! I'll be checking out Purple Penny for sure. :good:
Thanks also for the image education Fulvio, I did read the how-to on images but somehow missed that bit
-eccles
Quote from: 'trout' pid='110445' dateline='1501333120'That's 25c per coin
I think I've made the point before that that's a LOT of money when you're dealing with stuff that may only be worth face value. Not everything is PR70's, y'know.
Imagine if I were to put my sacks of coins into this type of storage, on the offchance that in 18 months when mintage figures come out it MAY turn out to be a low mintage year? Or all those rabbit ears and other errors out there...
No, we need reliable, CHEAP storage that won't destroy coins. And its out there, often for free. All you need is the knowledge to recognise it.
As I keep telling people over on /r/Dogecoin when educating them about wallets, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! Either you have it, in which case you can make the best informed choice possible, or you don't, in which case you are beholden to someone else and their motivations.
Case in point, I tripped over some 50ยข pieces of my own recently, which I'd put away several decades ago. In PVC pages sold to me by an allegedly knowledgeable coin dealer. At the time I didn't know any better, and soon forgot about them until I happened to trip over them one day while looking for something else.
Nothing too important, luckily. Some almost uncirculated 72, 73, 74 through to 1980. No biggie. But they could just as easily have been truly valuable coins, in which case I'd be pretty sad.
NOW I know what materials to use, and how to identify them. I know PVC kills coins. I know LDPE is not impervious to all manner of airborne contaminants. I know that food packaging is superior protection. I know where to buy PP and PET films, and how to seal them. In short, I now have the knowledge to protect myself and my coins.
But it did take a fair amount of time and effort and research. Which nobody has to start with, and few bother to invest in. Much easier to hand over a pile of cash and trust the 'expert' on the other side of the counter, right?
Chances are though, by the time you wake up that the 'expert' was a fraud, he'll be long gone, as will your collection.
Dealers who sell PVC holders are on par with Parramatta road carsalesman.
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='110450' dateline='1501370979'Dealers who sell PVC holders are on par with Parramatta road carsalesman.
...and most of our politicians. That's why the NBN is in tatters. ;)