Heard a lot about the Rare Coin Company debacle. It was before my time as collector.
But specifically, what coins were in those portfolio? Pre-decimals? Decimals? Sovereigns? World coins?
Just curious.
It would have been mostly Pre-decimals, but possibly some other stuff too. Would have varied by collector and what they were advised to buy.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='105280' dateline='1486987205'Heard a lot about the Rare Coin Company debacle. It was before my time as collector.
But specifically, what coins were in those portfolio? Pre-decimals? Decimals? Sovereigns? World coins?
Just curious.
Pretty much everything including notes.
Yeah, they were big on notes.. Wasn't there one batch that was worth some $5.5 million IIRC?
Yes, all of those plus Banknotes, they had some real top shelf stuff some absolute beautiful coins & notes, each month when their cattle dog arrived I would drool at some of their stock.
You could pay for it & they would "Mind" it for you in their safe.
Also they did sell some lesser type coins from both mints.
I had a lot of their cattle dogs, but when I moved I threw them out.
When I lived in Sydney I lived very close to their Sydney Rep, John ?? who I would have dinner with once a month at the local RSL,
when they went belly up it was just as big a surprise to him, out of work with no job prospects.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='105280' dateline='1486987205'Heard a lot about the Rare Coin Company debacle. It was before my time as collector.
But specifically, what coins were in those portfolio? Pre-decimals? Decimals? Sovereigns? World coins?
Just curious.
I just got Andrew Crellin's regular email and he mentioned the Rare Coin company. I know about it but don't know what coins they had.
Just crazy how they would guarantee minimum rate of return and immediate buy back for such an liquid and speculative asset. So unfortunate to see so many people hurt.
What are typical price range? 10k+ or mosty coins a few $k.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='105285' dateline='1486988729'So unfortunate to see so many people hurt.
Most, if not all, got their coins out. I recall seeing a figure of 85% from the receivers at one stage.
The loss was in the unrealised expectations of profit. Not the same thing.
If you buy a $1,000 coin and it goes bye-byes, you're out $1,000.
If you buy a $1,000 with the promise that next year you can sell it for $2,000, then the company goes bust and you get your coin, well, you still have the coin. It may only be worth $500, but you can always sit on it until the price hopefully recovers.
That said, most of their clients weren't collectors. If you 'invest' your life savings, and it all goes bad, you may well be forced to sell at the bottom because you must have an income. Your $1,000 suddenly crystallises into $500 in your hand, so you've lost half your money.
Part of the reason they went belly up was these changes to Self Funded Super.
Part of the reason (https://www.ato.gov.au/Super/Self-managed-super-funds/Investing/Restrictions-on-investments/Collectables-and-personal-use-assets/)
Not the only reason but a big part.
https://thewest.com.au/business/finance/retirees-snared-in-collapse-of-coin-dealer-ng-ya-353465
The problem that I saw with the Rare coin coy's business model is that I created a market that never existed before and by doing so artificially inflated the prices of rare/scarce coins and notes across the board by the increased demand from investors in this company.
At the end of the day the inflated values became too much for the market to bear and the coins/notes became unsellable at that price.
This would have happened eventually even if the changes to self funded super were not implemented.
What happened with the collapse of this company had a profound effect on the market in Australia and even now I don't think that the dust has quite settled yet and the market for these notes and coins is still going through a period of adjustment.
I do think that many of our coins and notes are greatly undervalued at the moment because of the uncertainty that this companies collapse has created and only time will tell when the confidence in the market will return and the real values can be established and maintained.
They sold collectibles at prices well in excess of their market value on the promise of future returns and financed those future returns with capital from new investors.
It worked as long as they kept the market of investors growing, once that stopped they could no longer finance people selling and as such went bankrupt.
Not a bad deal if you can have multiple clients bidding for items you already hold on their behalf. There was also a banknote trader who's name escapes me, who operated a business on similar lines and suffered a similar fate as T. R. C. C.
Some years ago I found myself bidding against Robert Jackman at an IAG auction for a mule dollar. It was a bit daunting knowing he had the artillery to easily blow me out of the game, but I had a figure in my head that I wasn't prepared to bid above so I ploughed on. Anyhow, as things turned out I was the winning bidder, and at the fall of the hammer he turned to me and gave a big grin which got me thinking was he just feeling sorry for me, or had he forced me above its true value. As things turned out he hadn't :yahoo:
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='105295' dateline='1487030851'the promise of future returns and financed those future returns with capital from new investors.
Which is what a Ponzi scheme is. :angel:
I agree with Trout. If there was 240 million in coins/notes leaking onto the market (especially if they are retirees who had to liquidate) then that would explain why the market is still weak and will remain weak for years to come. I'm sure that some of us have picked up bargains though and as we are primarily collectors and not investors the weakness is good for us.
AC I think that banknote dealer was John Petit Rare Banknotes.
Also whatever happened to Barry Winsor?
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='105296' dateline='1487034040'Not a bad deal if you can have multiple clients bidding for items you already hold on their behalf. There was also a banknote trader who's name escapes me, who operated a business on similar lines and suffered a similar fate as T. R. C. C.
Some years ago I found myself bidding against Robert Jackman at an IAG auction for a mule dollar. It was a bit daunting knowing he had the artillery to easily blow me out of the game, but I had a figure in my head that I wasn't prepared to bid above so I ploughed on. Anyhow, as things turned out I was the winning bidder, and at the fall of the hammer he turned to me and gave a big grin which got me thinking was he just feeling sorry for me, or had he forced me above its true value. As things turned out he hadn't :yahoo:
i'd bet you a hundred bucks that it was his coin
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105303' dateline='1487047665'I agree with Trout. If there was 240 million in coins/notes leaking onto the market (especially if they are retirees who had to liquidate) then that would explain why the market is still weak and will remain weak for years to come. I'm sure that some of us have picked up bargains though and as we are primarily collectors and not investors the weakness is good for us.
AC I think that banknote dealer was John Petit Rare Banknotes.
Also whatever happened to Barry Winsor?
yes i do believe it was him as well
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105303' dateline='1487047665'AC I think that banknote dealer was John Petit Rare Banknotes.
Also whatever happened to Barry Winsor?
That's the man. Going back into the early 2000's I received a lump sum payout after my employment of many years had ran into a dead end. At the Brisbane Coin Show around the same time I spoke with him about taking up a portfolio of notes, and with the returns at that stage being exceptional, I nearly took the leap but me being the cautious type didn't. For quite some years after that the returns were just through the roof, and remember being at an auction where the crowd would be in rapturous applause every time a note sold at record levels. I often cursed my decision not to invest, but in hindsight very glad I didn't, because I know I wouldn't have sold when I should have.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='105316' dateline='1487066419'i'd bet you a hundred bucks that it was his coin
You may be correct RG so I'm not betting haha. I didn't know the bloke personally, but he appeared to be a personable character.
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/Image1-271_zps46kh0ngh.jpg)
QuoteWhich is what a Ponzi scheme is.
I am pretty sure that it wasn't the original intention of the founders of this business for it to be a Ponzi or Pyramid scam.
I am of the opinion that it was just a case of big business getting involved in the market without any thought being given to the consequences or effects that this scheme would have on the Australian Market.
Everyone keeps banging on about how the poor investors got stung/hurt by the collapse of T.R.C.C.
The investors were motivated by greed and they were directly involved with the scheme by participating in it and as with any High Risk/High Return investment there are inherent risks, In this case the investors paid the price for accepting the risks.
Not much thought has been given to the average collector or Dealer that virtually overnight lost a huge percentage of the value of their collection/Stock.
These are the people that have for NO fault of their own had to bear the cost of this collapse and every time Big business gets involved in the market it will have a "ripple" effect on everyone's collections and usually NOT a good effect.
"Some people are believed to have used entire super funds or the proceeds of selling their house to fund their purchases."
Australasian Numismatic Dealer's Association president Andrew Crellin said: "It seems a lot of people weren't aware of the way that the market operates or the value of the items they had."
these are the people who have been hit the hardest
that is why I don't trust financial advisers
they push for risk and self management and then poor blighters dreaming of things too good to be true end up living in poverty
i expect these people to show up again and start other businesses
and other cons
and round and round it goes
anyways - lots of businesses go bust - we recently had the Autolyse bakery go bust here - turns out the bastard hadn't been paying his staff superannuation payments either and to boot- turns out that he is a repeat offender in the going bust business - apparently he had the telstra tower restaurant and similar state of affairs for his staff when he went bust
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/autolyse-cafe-and-bakery-closed-down-and-staff-terminated-after-popular-braddon-business-sold-20170125-gtypp6.html
Apparently you can go bankrupt a few times and rip off your creditors and Still become the President of the US :angel:
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='105338' dateline='1487122945'"Some people are believed to have used entire super funds or the proceeds of selling their house to fund their purchases."
Australasian Numismatic Dealer's Association president Andrew Crellin said: "It seems a lot of people weren't aware of the way that the market operates or the value of the items they had."
This is a discussion I seem to have every other day in the crytptocurrency world. :(
I remember a guy in early 2014 who tipped his entire life savings, some $75,000, into Dogecoin at the absolute top of the peak. It was supposed to be the deposit for a house he and his fiance had been saving for while living with his parents. The market crashed, and wiped out 3/4 of the value of his coins. She left him, his parents threw him out, he lost his job, and he was talking suicide.
This happens all the time, in just about every market. Been there, done that... I saw my shares in Cinema Plus, which owned all the Oceania IMAX theatres, evaporate when the joint partners got together and seized the assets and left the company with all the debt. But it was only three grand, so it didn't kill me. Neither did the bank pulling the plug on my business and costing me a million, but that's another story.
Everything has risk attached. Even lying in bed, a plane could come through the roof at any moment. Its all about risk management and mitigation. You don't play footy on the freeway, and you don't risk what you can't afford to lose. Ever.
These people failed to heed that, and paid the price.
I have a basic knowledge of the Rare Coin Company debacle but as I was not into collecting coins back then, I have know idea of the prices before or during the peek, apart from some of the more expensive ones . It would be interesting if someone who collected through that era could pick a couple of pre decimal coins that are maybe worth say $200 - $300 now and estimate what they were worth before and during that era. I am just curious to see what the market might head back to or if we are already there.
Quote from: 'p.gee' pid='105343' dateline='1487128582'I have a basic knowledge of the Rare Coin Company debacle but as I was not into collecting coins back then, I have know idea of the prices before or during the peek, apart from some of the more expensive ones . It would be interesting if someone who collected through that era could pick a couple of pre decimal coins that are maybe worth say $200 - $300 now and estimate what they were worth before and during that era. I am just curious to see what the market might head back to or if we are already there.
I was around then but the limit i would spend on a Coin would be less than $100, unless it was Gold,so not much help.RCC,if i understand it properly,were targeting people with Thousands(Cash or Coins/Notes) to spend otherwise it wasn't worth their time.As others have stated it turned into a Ponzi Scheme rather quickly.
Wasn't 'P.Gee' one of David Gee's alias early on?
http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/a-sticky-business-20141009-113l4m.html
"" and you don't risk what you can't afford to lose. Ever.
These people failed to heed that, and paid the price. ""
- that really resonated with me Fulvio
what incredible (sad) stories and good advice
Basil
often sons are fairly active in their father's business and carry on the family traditions
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105340' dateline='1487124114'Apparently you can go bankrupt a few times and rip off your creditors and Still become the President of the US :angel:
Don't give Rob Jackman any ideas. Our Prime Ministers are disappointing enough already.
Does anyone know where Rob Jackman and co. are now and what they're up to?
QuoteDoes anyone know where Rob Jackman and co. are now and what they're up to?
I have NO idea But if you Googled "Get Rich Quick" maybe you will find something :angel::laugh2:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='105539' dateline='1487493740'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105340' dateline='1487124114'Apparently you can go bankrupt a few times and rip off your creditors and Still become the President of the US :angel:
Don't give Rob Jackman any ideas. Our Prime Ministers are disappointing enough already.
Does anyone know where Rob Jackman and co. are now and what they're up to?
Mr Jackman is a security guard.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='105541' dateline='1487494239'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='105539' dateline='1487493740'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105340' dateline='1487124114'Apparently you can go bankrupt a few times and rip off your creditors and Still become the President of the US :angel:
Don't give Rob Jackman any ideas. Our Prime Ministers are disappointing enough already.
Does anyone know where Rob Jackman and co. are now and what they're up to?
Mr Jackman is a security guard.
not for too much longer
Quote from: 'frenc11' pid='105564' dateline='1487517765'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='105541' dateline='1487494239'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='105539' dateline='1487493740'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105340' dateline='1487124114'Apparently you can go bankrupt a few times and rip off your creditors and Still become the President of the US :angel:
Don't give Rob Jackman any ideas. Our Prime Ministers are disappointing enough already.
Does anyone know where Rob Jackman and co. are now and what they're up to?
Mr Jackman is a security guard.
not for too much longer
Oh? What have you heard?
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='105344' dateline='1487132768'Quote from: 'p.gee' pid='105343' dateline='1487128582'I have a basic knowledge of the Rare Coin Company debacle but as I was not into collecting coins back then, I have know idea of the prices before or during the peek, apart from some of the more expensive ones . It would be interesting if someone who collected through that era could pick a couple of pre decimal coins that are maybe worth say $200 - $300 now and estimate what they were worth before and during that era. I am just curious to see what the market might head back to or if we are already there.
I was around then but the limit i would spend on a Coin would be less than $100, unless it was Gold,so not much help.RCC,if i understand it properly,were targeting people with Thousands(Cash or Coins/Notes) to spend otherwise it wasn't worth their time.As others have stated it turned into a Ponzi Scheme rather quickly.
Wasn't 'P.Gee' one of David Gee's alias early on?
http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/a-sticky-business-20141009-113l4m.html
Interesting read there, cheers Basil. I remember awhile back in a former forum when the chatroom was booming, a Sydney Dentist, by the name of George, he called himself , used to pop his head in every now and then for a chat. At one time, I think he was trying to get info on how to remove something off coins, may have been tape or similar. Article just sparked the memory abit. :) just a coincidence I suppose :)
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='105626' dateline='1487650968'Interesting read there, cheers Basil. I remember awhile back in a former forum when the chatroom was booming, a Sydney Dentist, by the name of George, he called himself , used to pop his head in every now and then for a chat. At one time, I think he was trying to get info on how to remove something off coins, may have been tape or similar. Article just sparked the memory abit. :) just a coincidence I suppose :)
Interesting,Police aren't as slack as some people think,a lot goes on behind the scenes with Fraud cases.When i was on the Central Coast i used to play regular Golf with a serving Policeman and he seemed to think the mastermind behind the Stamp Frauds was a Sydney Dental Technician and he had no doubt he had tried his skills with Coins as well.May be a Urban Myth thou.so time will tell,eventually the truth usually gets out on these matters.
There was also another one where some of the filled 8's in the 1948 3d's were being filled deliberately. Rumour was it was being done by a dentist in Sydney as well. Who know's. :)
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='105344' dateline='1487132768'Quote from: 'p.gee' pid='105343' dateline='1487128582'I have a basic knowledge of the Rare Coin Company debacle but as I was not into collecting coins back then, I have know idea of the prices before or during the peek, apart from some of the more expensive ones . It would be interesting if someone who collected through that era could pick a couple of pre decimal coins that are maybe worth say $200 - $300 now and estimate what they were worth before and during that era. I am just curious to see what the market might head back to or if we are already there.
I was around then but the limit i would spend on a Coin would be less than $100, unless it was Gold,so not much help.RCC,if i understand it properly,were targeting people with Thousands(Cash or Coins/Notes) to spend otherwise it wasn't worth their time.As others have stated it turned into a Ponzi Scheme rather quickly.
Wasn't 'P.Gee' one of David Gee's alias early on?
http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/a-sticky-business-20141009-113l4m.html
My inheritance from Uncle Dave hasn't turned up yet but I look forward to it.:yahoo:
are you serious?????
are you a relative?????
i always wanted to meet him but my coin dealer absolutely forbid it so it never happened
he knew my coin dealer or rather my coin dealer knew him
I think Old Mate is just stirring the Pot RG :laugh2:
Awwww
So close and yet so far away
I find the story fascinating and really did want to interview that man but my coin dealer was adamant that I'd be meeting with the devil himself so I did get scared off!!
For those who knew him some of the journalistic mystic is uncovered to show the true criminal side. I.e.forgery and other blackmarket activities that a coin collecting mum in the burbs needs to steer clear of!!
Plus even the mint display his dies and forgeries so even the mint keeps the mystic going as well
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='105631' dateline='1487656427'There was also another one where some of the filled 8's in the 1948 3d's were being filled deliberately. Rumour was it was being done by a dentist in Sydney as well. Who know's. :)
Close,i think he was adding trails to 1934 3d with some sort of silver mixture,probably still going on 20+ years later.
Unfortunately there are a Lot of "Shady" character's involved in the coin market and since the growth of the internet their numbers have exploded massively :dash1:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='105599' dateline='1487602739'Quote from: 'frenc11' pid='105564' dateline='1487517765'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='105541' dateline='1487494239'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='105539' dateline='1487493740'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105340' dateline='1487124114'Apparently you can go bankrupt a few times and rip off your creditors and Still become the President of the US :angel:
Don't give Rob Jackman any ideas. Our Prime Ministers are disappointing enough already.
Does anyone know where Rob Jackman and co. are now and what they're up to?
Mr Jackman is a security guard.
not for too much longer
Oh? What have you heard?
he will be spending his retirement incarcerated , after the upcoming court case
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105657' dateline='1487677574'Unfortunately there are a Lot of "Shady" character's involved in the coin market and since the growth of the internet their numbers have exploded massively :dash1:
I had a go at some of them on FB and I had a good laugh to my self when they tried to guarantee me that they were on top of the "baddies" so I had a good laugh as it's some of the admin that are the baddies so yet again I upset the apple cart :angel: But when they pretty much condone selling fakes and shill bidding what is one to think as they say they git rid of the baddies but they're still there and still trying to get away with what ever they can and if I have a go they delete my comments :dodgy:
I think you will find that the dodgy mob on FB would Not be tolerated on forums such as this or CCF and that is why they only exist on their OWN FB pages.
It IS unfortunate that some people actually believe the BS they put on their FB pages though :dodgy:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='105688' dateline='1487759907'I had a go at some of them on FB
You wouldn't be referring to our recent acrimonious verbal fisticuffs, would ye, laddie?
Sanctimonious so-and-sos.. shouldn't be allowed to run a chook raffle, let alone a FB group. :angel:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='105688' dateline='1487759907'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105657' dateline='1487677574'Unfortunately there are a Lot of "Shady" character's involved in the coin market and since the growth of the internet their numbers have exploded massively :dash1:
I had a go at some of them on FB and I had a good laugh to my self when they tried to guarantee me that they were on top of the "baddies" so I had a good laugh as it's some of the admin that are the baddies so yet again I upset the apple cart :angel: But when they pretty much condone selling fakes and shill bidding what is one to think as they say they git rid of the baddies but they're still there and still trying to get away with what ever they can and if I have a go they delete my comments :dodgy:
It's dog eat dog out there in Facebook land AJ
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='105688' dateline='1487759907'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105657' dateline='1487677574'Unfortunately there are a Lot of "Shady" character's involved in the coin market and since the growth of the internet their numbers have exploded massively :dash1:
I had a go at some of them on FB and I had a good laugh to my self when they tried to guarantee me that they were on top of the "baddies" so I had a good laugh as it's some of the admin that are the baddies so yet again I upset the apple cart :angel: But when they pretty much condone selling fakes and shill bidding what is one to think as they say they git rid of the baddies but they're still there and still trying to get away with what ever they can and if I have a go they delete my comments :dodgy:
AJ these crooks are chronic on FB ... just another part of the corrupt network just look at the double headed 2007 5c for example :dodgy:
I Hate to say it but it does appear that some of the "Less Savoury" Sellers/Dealers DO seem to be Networking with the aid of Facebook and other avenues over the last year or so.
This can only cause an increase in the number of disappointed and disillusioned collectors that in turn will effect the now somewhat struggling coin market as a whole.
Yes FB is a very strange place to say the least and so many scumbag and parasites on there it's not funny and yes they do promote and cover each other something chronic.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106302' dateline='1488770873'Yes FB is a very strange place to say the least and so many scumbag and parasites on there it's not funny and yes they do promote and cover each other something chronic.
Fifteen years ago the scammers were on Ebay (remember Seb and his "germ UNC" coins)? Now the scammers are moving into the newer selling forums, since Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
The sad thing is that, like Gresham's law for social media, the bad guys drive out the good guys, and all that's left are the bad ones. I know for a fact that, at least on one occasion, an experienced and trustworthy numismatist was kicked out of the group for pointing out all the scams.
Eric Eigner
Quotesince Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
There are still some quality coins and sellers on eBay But it is like looking for a lost sovereign at the local tip to find them, You have to dig through so much garbage to find them :angel:
Just MO but i think Ebay is the best(and fairest) its ever been at the moment,the PayPal refund with dodgy deals is the best improvement along with the seller not being able to leave negative FB.
FB & Gum Tree are scammers paradise at the moment,similar to Ebay in the early 2000's,welfare types spending all day dreaming up new scams instead of getting out and getting a job.
As mentioned earlier there are lots of networking with many of the Coin guys on FB,bidding up each others Coins to ridiculous prices and leaving glowing messages,makes it hard for the genuine FB Coin Sellers trying to get a foot in.
From many of the comments here on the actions of F.B. groups, it's no doubt an understatement to say there is some dodgy activity happening. As for myself, I can't offer an opinion as I make a point of not getting involved with social media, apart from the odd post here on ACF.
As suggested in an earlier post by Eric, there appears to be a decline in the quality of ebay listings over time which I'm thinking may be the result of disillusionment for some, and the source of disappointment for many. Not knowing anything about how one would go about setting up a platform on Facebook, or indeed wanting to myself, could this be an option for those here who sometimes voice their disapproval of dodgy deeds. This way the roles could be reversed where they would be in charge of activity, admissions and dismissals :diablo: It makes sense that an ethical and trusted group would survive and grow.
I read recently where there are approximately 8 million coin collectors in Germany, so based on our relative populations, you would think there should be at least 3 million or so collectors in Australia.
There are still plenty of good coins to be had on ebay and to a large extent facebook.In fact I can easliy buy coins on facebook and flip them for 10 times what I paid but you have to keep your eyes open and try to look at all listings as there is more competition these days and I know of plenty of ebay/facebook buyers and sellers that do it for a living and do quite well out of it. It just depends on how much effort you put into it
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106412' dateline='1489095495'Fifteen years ago the scammers were on Ebay (remember Seb and his "germ UNC" coins)? Now the scammers are moving into the newer selling forums, since Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
The sad thing is that, like Gresham's law for social media, the bad guys drive out the good guys, and all that's left are the bad ones. I know for a fact that, at least on one occasion, an experienced and trustworthy numismatist was kicked out of the group for pointing out all the scams.
Eric Eigner
All online communities are dictatorships, this forum is no different and neither are Facebook groups. All you can hope for is a benevolent dictator. A well known tool of non-benevolent dictators is suppression of dissenting opinion. Given that almost all the bigger FB groups are being run by stooges of a well known Australian "grader" who is hanging off of the coat-tails of PCGS or by group admins using them to make money it's no surprise so many of the groups have non-benevolent admins and suppress dissenting opinions.
Personally I find reading some of the FB groups a huge exercise in frustration being unable to offer up my own opinions. But I'd rather be in the group reading what is going on than be tossed out and having no idea.
That all being said I hope I am more of the benevolent type of overlord. Now all of you bow down before me.:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='106421' dateline='1489110946'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106412' dateline='1489095495'Fifteen years ago the scammers were on Ebay (remember Seb and his "germ UNC" coins)? Now the scammers are moving into the newer selling forums, since Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
The sad thing is that, like Gresham's law for social media, the bad guys drive out the good guys, and all that's left are the bad ones. I know for a fact that, at least on one occasion, an experienced and trustworthy numismatist was kicked out of the group for pointing out all the scams.
Eric Eigner
All online communities are dictatorships, this forum is no different and neither are Facebook groups. All you can hope for is a benevolent dictator. A well known tool of non-benevolent dictators is suppression of dissenting opinion. Given that almost all the bigger FB groups are being run by stooges of a well known Australian "grader" who is hanging off of the coat-tails of PCGS or by group admins using them to make money it's no surprise so many of the groups have non-benevolent admins and suppress dissenting opinions.
Personally I find reading some of the FB groups a huge exercise in frustration being unable to offer up my own opinions. But I'd rather be in the group reading what is going on than be tossed out and having no idea.
That all being said I hope I am more of the benevolent type of overlord. Now all of you bow down before me.:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:
You're using the term "grader" rather liberally there, I can think of a few more choice terms that might be more apt. :P
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='106422' dateline='1489111200'You're using the term "grader" rather liberally there, I can think of a few more choice terms that might be more apt. :P
I don't think the spam filter on the forum will allow me to post my real opinion. So I'll stick with "grader" in quotes.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='106418' dateline='1489105593'I read recently where there are approximately 8 million coin collectors in Germany, so based on our relative populations, you would think there should be at least 3 million or so collectors in Australia.
Hard to say but Central and Northern Europe have a long history of Stamp/Coin Collecting because of the Winters that create an environment for indoor activities.
When i started collecting in the early 1960's all the Dealers were primary Stamps with Coins on the side but most started pushing Coins once we headed to the Decimal change over.
I think there must be more Coin collectors than Stamps these days in Oz.,Stamps seem to be a dying hobby.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='106421' dateline='1489110946'But I'd rather be in the group reading what is going on than be tossed out and having no idea.
That all being said I hope I am more of the benevolent type of overlord. Now all of you bow down before me.
You have far more tolerance than I do, and my hat's off to you for it. :hi:. I'm too old for that BS, so I call a spade a bloody shovel, and get turfed out for it. Their loss, not mine.
Bow down? You're kidding right? Read the above. :angel:
But I'll happily sit up in the peanut gallery and throw Jaffas down at you if you like. ;)
Quote from: 'markn' pid='106421' dateline='1489110946'That all being said I hope I am more of the benevolent type of overlord. Now all of you bow down before me.:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBEn3a4TIUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBEn3a4TIUw) :mocking:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106429' dateline='1489113502'You have far more tolerance than I do, and my hat's off to you for it. :hi:. I'm too old for that BS, so I call a spade a bloody shovel, and get turfed out for it. Their loss, not mine.
Bow down? You're kidding right? Read the above. :angel:
But I'll happily sit up in the peanut gallery and throw Jaffas down at you if you like. ;)
I like jaffas. Go for it.
I Love your work Mark , Well done Mate :good:
I am only a member of one coin forum on Facebook although I have not sold anything through it or purchased anything from it. I have noticed that the grader is also a member of it. Apparently he was a very busy man at the start of this year because he had a large volume of grading to be done.
Quotehe was a very busy man at the start of this year because he had a large volume of grading to be done.
Crikey the back shed must have been "Chokker" :laugh2:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106412' dateline='1489095495'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106302' dateline='1488770873'Yes FB is a very strange place to say the least and so many scumbag and parasites on there it's not funny and yes they do promote and cover each other something chronic.
Fifteen years ago the scammers were on Ebay (remember Seb and his "germ UNC" coins)? Now the scammers are moving into the newer selling forums, since Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
The sad thing is that, like Gresham's law for social media, the bad guys drive out the good guys, and all that's left are the bad ones. I know for a fact that, at least on one occasion, an experienced and trustworthy numismatist was kicked out of the group for pointing out all the scams.
Eric Eigner
Yes very true Eric and I have noticed quite a few very experienced people that I have a lot of respect for due to their vast coin knowledge either don't or very rarely comment any more due to tossers that think they know when in fact they know sweet FA :dodgy: It's a shame but like you said this is what happens when the bad guys drive out the good.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106414' dateline='1489096666'Quotesince Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
There are still some quality coins and sellers on eBay But it is like looking for a lost sovereign at the local tip to find them, You have to dig through so much garbage to find them :angel:
FB is no different :dodgy:
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='106416' dateline='1489099039'Just MO but i think Ebay is the best(and fairest) its ever been at the moment,the PayPal refund with dodgy deals is the best improvement along with the seller not being able to leave negative FB.
FB & Gum Tree are scammers paradise at the moment,similar to Ebay in the early 2000's,welfare types spending all day dreaming up new scams instead of getting out and getting a job.
As mentioned earlier there are lots of networking with many of the Coin guys on FB,bidding up each others Coins to ridiculous prices and leaving glowing messages,makes it hard for the genuine FB Coin Sellers trying to get a foot in.
Spot on Basil, funny how a "grader" can have a couple of ID's and shill bid but nothing is done and they still promote and say they don't, it really is a very bad joke and especially for newbies and in the long run this will just drive people from collecting as they get burnt and then think all these people pissin in each others pockets saying how good one and other are is a good place to stay away from.
Got to love the "trusted seller/buyers" crap :dash1: There's only a few people I buy off because the rest can't be trusted :@
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='106418' dateline='1489105593'From many of the comments here on the actions of F.B. groups, it's no doubt an understatement to say there is some dodgy activity happening. As for myself, I can't offer an opinion as I make a point of not getting involved with social media, apart from the odd post here on ACF.
As suggested in an earlier post by Eric, there appears to be a decline in the quality of ebay listings over time which I'm thinking may be the result of disillusionment for some, and the source of disappointment for many. Not knowing anything about how one would go about setting up a platform on Facebook, or indeed wanting to myself, could this be an option for those here who sometimes voice their disapproval of dodgy deeds. This way the roles could be reversed where they would be in charge of activity, admissions and dismissals :diablo: It makes sense that an ethical and trusted group would survive and grow.
I read recently where there are approximately 8 million coin collectors in Germany, so based on our relative populations, you would think there should be at least 3 million or so collectors in Australia.
Yeah there's a few people on some of these groups auto but to me they're not really collectors as they ask stupid question about roadkill coins and don't listen to the experienced people so they ask a few lame questions and then never to be seen again so some of the pages that have over 8 thousand member might have a dozen regular members the regularly post and might have one or two that do know what they're talking about.
As for starting your own page yes it seems pretty easy but then you have to filter out all the scum so I don't know if its worth the trouble and one of the reasons why there's so many pages now is because the "admin" (they call them selves this to feel important) fight a lot behind the sense so next minute there's another page so in the last twelve months or so there's been a major influx of pages but like previously mentioned it's the same names on a lot of these pages and some promote other pages they like and bag out others they don't like and this also isn't good for the hobby.
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='106420' dateline='1489109138'There are still plenty of good coins to be had on ebay and to a large extent facebook.In fact I can easliy buy coins on facebook and flip them for 10 times what I paid but you have to keep your eyes open and try to look at all listings as there is more competition these days and I know of plenty of ebay/facebook buyers and sellers that do it for a living and do quite well out of it. It just depends on how much effort you put into it
I'm glad you have better eyes then me Stevo because on both ebay and FB some of the pic's are so poor sometimes it's hard to make out it's even a coin at times but I have seen some of yours and you've done alright but then how many duds have you bought.
It cracks me up how people will get asked on FB for a better pic so yet again they stand on one side of the room and take a pic of a coin that's on the other side and then say "is that better" my god I laugh and then they say "that's the best I can do with my mobile" but then others can use mobiles and take pretty good pic's, well they can be recognised as coins :winkextra:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='106421' dateline='1489110946'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106412' dateline='1489095495'Fifteen years ago the scammers were on Ebay (remember Seb and his "germ UNC" coins)? Now the scammers are moving into the newer selling forums, since Ebay is basically dead for quality coins.
The sad thing is that, like Gresham's law for social media, the bad guys drive out the good guys, and all that's left are the bad ones. I know for a fact that, at least on one occasion, an experienced and trustworthy numismatist was kicked out of the group for pointing out all the scams.
Eric Eigner
All online communities are dictatorships, this forum is no different and neither are Facebook groups. All you can hope for is a benevolent dictator. A well known tool of non-benevolent dictators is suppression of dissenting opinion. Given that almost all the bigger FB groups are being run by stooges of a well known Australian "grader" who is hanging off of the coat-tails of PCGS or by group admins using them to make money it's no surprise so many of the groups have non-benevolent admins and suppress dissenting opinions.
Personally I find reading some of the FB groups a huge exercise in frustration being unable to offer up my own opinions. But I'd rather be in the group reading what is going on than be tossed out and having no idea.
That all being said I hope I am more of the benevolent type of overlord. Now all of you bow down before me.:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:
:laugh2: a bit of an understatement Mark but yes full on dictatorships, but this one isn't too bad, mainly 'cause PP keeps you in line :mocking:
I don't know how many fights I've had because of someone riding on the coat-tail and they all come to his rescue and I'm the bad guy for picking on him and they say you can ask question and he says it as well but when you ask things like how many people he has grading for him he get admin like on "the gravy page" to delete the comments and they say they're not in his pocket, yeah right pull the other one :dodgy: Anyone questioning him or admin soon get banned so that's anther reason why there's so many coin pages now. Now I prefer to get kicked out because I know that you can't win a fight with an idiot :blink: and especially those sorts.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='106422' dateline='1489111200'You're using the term "grader" rather liberally there, I can think of a few more choice terms that might be more apt. :P
Yes I couldn't agree more Walter :good: "grader" what a joke, copy paste everything from a big company and they say it's your own grading scale etc and that's why he sends his good coins to be graded a pcgs and down grades some of his customers so he can buy them cheap :dodgy:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='106423' dateline='1489111381'I don't think the spam filter on the forum will allow me to post my real opinion. So I'll stick with "grader" in quotes.
Yes it will Mark, just try it :angel: :laugh2:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106429' dateline='1489113502'Quote from: 'markn' pid='106421' dateline='1489110946'But I'd rather be in the group reading what is going on than be tossed out and having no idea.
That all being said I hope I am more of the benevolent type of overlord. Now all of you bow down before me.
You have far more tolerance than I do, and my hat's off to you for it. :hi:. I'm too old for that BS, so I call a spade a bloody shovel, and get turfed out for it. Their loss, not mine.
Bow down? You're kidding right? Read the above. :angel:
But I'll happily sit up in the peanut gallery and throw Jaffas down at you if you like. ;)
:agreed:
I like places like this where we can fight about some things but then agree on others but FB is a different kettle of fish all together because they get the poops and then if they aren't admin and ban you they try everything they can to get you banned.
If you've got the Jaffa's covered what can I get :angel: :mocking:
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='106435' dateline='1489125956'I am only a member of one coin forum on Facebook although I have not sold anything through it or purchased anything from it. I have noticed that the grader is also a member of it. Apparently he was a very busy man at the start of this year because he had a large volume of grading to be done.
HA, he tells so many porky pies it's not funny, I wonder if he was grading coins when he was at the horse races down south somewhere earlier this year because it was quiet and he didn't have much on :dodgy:
I'll have to keep an eye out for you SD :good: But your probably a member of one of the one's I'm not :winkextra: There's actually a few members from here on there and most of my friends on there are from here :friends:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106436' dateline='1489126465'Quotehe was a very busy man at the start of this year because he had a large volume of grading to be done.
Crikey the back shed must have been "Chokker" :laugh2:
:laugh2: got it in one trout :good:
No they all say on FB that he's a legit business, but no one gets to see this "legit" business so to me that's pretty suss to start with :dodgy:
Quote from: I know for a fact that, at least on one occasion, an experienced and trustworthy numismatist was kicked out of the group for pointing out all the scams[/quoteYep there has been many
Sorry for going :off_topic: please forgive me :beg:
One last thing for this rant is there's a couple of pages that annoy me by saying you must send them a copy of your licence to buy and sell and that one of the admin has authority to do this, so I wonder what authority he has :scratch_one-s_head: No I'm not sending a copy of my licence to ANY of them and they didn't like it when I said many FB accounts have been hacked so what happens to this info if theirs does.
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='106435' dateline='1489125956'I am only a member of one coin forum on Facebook although I have not sold anything through it or purchased anything from it. I have noticed that the grader is also a member of it. Apparently he was a very busy man at the start of this year because he had a large volume of grading to be done.
this is a conflict of interest and could lead to overgrading to sell for bigger profits
He is actually notorious for undergrading but you do have to look out
for the occasional overgraded coin and with a coin grading panel of 1 person
it would be hard to get it right
Well said ausjack
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='106486' dateline='1489221799'He is actually notorious for undergrading but you do have to look out
for the occasional overgraded coin and with a coin grading panel of 1 person
it would be hard to get it right
What grading company are you talking about here Steve?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106492' dateline='1489272167'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='106486' dateline='1489221799'He is actually notorious for undergrading but you do have to look out
for the occasional overgraded coin and with a coin grading panel of 1 person
it would be hard to get it right
What grading company are you talking about here Steve?
He is talking about Apcgs.
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='106510' dateline='1489296137'Quote from: 'trout' pid='106492' dateline='1489272167'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='106486' dateline='1489221799'He is actually notorious for undergrading but you do have to look out
for the occasional overgraded coin and with a coin grading panel of 1 person
it would be hard to get it right
What grading company are you talking about here Steve?
He is talking about Apcgs.
Who is this one man grading panel?
lots are members here too
QuoteHe is actually notorious for undergrading
I have to disagree with you Steve, Old Mate at APCGS is renowned for his overgrading and for grading problem coins.
I call BS on him being "Known" for undergrading.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106517' dateline='1489313403'QuoteHe is actually notorious for undergrading
I have to disagree with you Steve, Old Mate at APCGS is renowned for his overgrading and for grading problem coins.
I call BS on him being "Known" for undergrading.
Having seen a number of APCGS coins I'd say that most are overgraded but a number are significantly undergraded. A cherrypicker could easily get a bargain on the undergrades.......except most APCGS coins are overpriced and the undergrade is thus priced at its true grade price.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106517' dateline='1489313403'I call BS on him being "Known" for undergrading.
He is known for this in Facebook circles
Try sending some of his slabs to PCGS and you might
change your mind.But then again if you cant grade the
coin for yourself in the first place you wouldnt know what
is undergraded or what is overgraded
QuoteHe is known for this in Facebook circles
And facebook is Sooo well known for it's numismatic experts ??
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106521' dateline='1489316607'And facebook is Sooo well known for it's numismatic experts ??
ROFLMAO!!::laughingneqw::laugh2::laughingneqw::laugh2::laughingneqw:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106521' dateline='1489316607'QuoteHe is known for this in Facebook circles
And facebook is Sooo well known for it's numismatic experts ??
Says the expert with no facebook experience
Why are you getting so bent out of shape for Steve?
Mrs Trout and all my kids use facebook and they all have the same opinion of it, It is full of dick heads.
You make an absurd statement by saying that APCGS graded coins are renowned for being undergraded which I obviously don't agree with and said so and now all you can come up with is personal insults and innuendo's .
Maybe you are getting ACF confused with your facebook pages.
You may be able to convince your facebook readers that APCGS coins are undergraded but you will find a far less gullible audience here.
If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
Well as this "Grader" has pretty much copied PCGS's name I would imagine that he is striving to grade by PCGS standards as well and is failing in this quite miserably :angel:
He says he grades to "aussie" standards but who knows what that is because I thought that the standard was ANDA and his grading scale is copied from PCGS :blink:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
I think it's the second one Eric :dodgy: He grades according to how much he likes you so if you run a FB page and promote his rubbish you get better grades and maybe some other kickbacks like a reduced fee..who knows but there's just so much suss stuff happening it's not funny, also if he want to get a coin cheap off someone he'll grade it low so he can get it cheaper when he's shill bidding :dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106524' dateline='1489325493'You may be able to convince your facebook readers that APCGS coins are undergraded but you will find a far less gullible audience here.
I don't need to convince anybody and you can assume what you like but I know from experience how APCGS coins sit by looking at the coin.As far as facebook being full of dickheads that may be true but you will find that many of the members here are active on Facebook .It's just another way to buy and sell
I'm an admin on the largest coin group on FB, you are correct in many senses as it does have problems and has had some issues in the past. I can confirm for you 100% that EVERY admin on FNQ now fully supports PCGS through myself. Its not a forum made up of numismatic experts with 99% of these people Mum and Dad collectors (including most admins) who just want the latest new coloured coin, to them being polite is their biggest concern not having numismatic arguments they care nothing about. Attacks on grading companies albeit justified in some cases instead of empowering these collectors drives them away in droves. This is often why you find very opinionated people willing to engage in arguments removed from such groups even though they are right.
The aims of the groups are not to allow dodgy items to be sold, often I remove PMD being sold as "mint errors" or the inevitable chinese fake that pops it head up every now and then. I have even tried my best to control the cleaned garbage being sold without accurate descriptions. Am I perfect or around all the time no but a simple message and I'll usually resolve the issue.
I'm not trying to say what has happened in the past was good as it wasn't (i wasn't around as admin during those times either) but I'm doing my best to ensure the future of FNQ in particular guides collectors down the right paths.
FNQ is one of the worst for dodgy deals, selling known fakes and shill bidding so if they were fairdinkum the offenders should have been booted but they're still there as they are "highly respected" members :dash1: But most of the FB pages are the same and a lot have the same admin running different pages and you'd think there were lots of people on these pages but like most forums etc there's only a few that are regular buyers and sellers and some people work that out and that's why they don't go back and why people still use ebay. I think people just want a good place to sell but it's hard to find because they all have there own problems and drawbacks.
All admin say they're trying their best (and a very small percentage are) but most are just there to sell their own coins and if you say anything to upset them they soon kick you off and there's a lot of infighting and that's why there's so many different pages now and that's good in some ways but then bad in others. I wonder how many pages there'll be in a couple of more years, the way it's going there's be over 50 because so many have popped up in the last 12 months it's not funny.
The thing that really annoys me is that people take notice of the nobodies that wouldn't know their head from their arse and when the people that have had years and years of experience get shunned and shot down so you find these people don't comment or help much any more but then who'd blame them.
Oh and the admin on FNQ knew about the fakes and especially the shill bidding but as they didn't want to upset the "trusted" members they just hushed it all up and to this day they still say they have it under control but they don't want to lose face so it's easier to delete posts and boot members.
I think while ever they hide the truth people will get disheartened with collecting once they work out the truth and this isn't good for the hobby in the long run.
I'm assuming you havent been a member on FNQ for some time? Alot of the offenders you speak of were outcast from FNQ a while back hence why there are multiple groups popping up, most of these arose due to the selling conditions on FNQ no longer being favourable audiences to their selling practices so they have had to go out and create their own groups to continue selling their items.
As for the nobodies unfortunately you will never be able to stop every one of the 10,000 plus members we manage from speaking (if you have a way by all means I'm open) and understand that is why alot of knowledgeable people no longer comment. They do however still talk to us via messages and we in turn deal with the issues on a public front.
I can assure you in my time as admin I have pulled up trusted members, admin you name it. I couldn't give two rats who's name is at the top, if the coin doesn't pass mustard I'm onto it like a fat kid in a cake shop. My role is to protect buyers not the interests of the sellers no matter who they are.
In an ideal World facebook would be a fantastic resource for collectors, It is however Not an ideal World.
We all know that eBay is Not the "Perfect" venue to buy and sell But for all its faults it is streets ahead of gumtree or facebook because the buyers Are protected to a good degree and much of the "RatBag" sellers get removed eventually, Some do slip through the cracks but like I said eBay isn't Perfect.
There are No REAL checks and balances on a facebook page as anyone can create one and install themselves as "Admin" without spending a cent or have any liabilities, Unlike when an internet forum is created where there are costs, maintenance/upgrades and legal obligations to be considered.
Facebook is also a perfect place for the dodgy coin dealers/sellers that have been evicted from eBay to operate as well as the inexperienced or dodgy ones that insist that the shed jobs they have for sale are the real deal.
Yes there are NO fees selling on facebook But there is also absolutely NO protection for anyone who gets Ripped off either.
There are probably more newbie collectors that read the facebook pages than there are that are members of forums like this one which is a real shame because the new collectors are the most vulnerable to being Scammed and on ACF the advice given isn't "Slanted" towards a sale or to promote any member in particular and if there is something dodgy being promoted here it doesn't have a very long Shelf Life.
I strongly advise any of our new collector Members here to ask questions on this forum about any purchase they are considering be it an eBay or facebook offering that they have any concerns about instead of just believing what they are told on a facebook page.
Trout we have Verified Current Photo ID of every member allowed to sell on our facebook group, this has meant a reduction in fraud to one case in the past 6 months or so which after their details were handed to the police was sorted extremely quickly, i'm betting that's a better per transaction rate than you would get from Ebay. Also all our transactions can be done through paypal to give a buyer perfect protection if they feel the need or haven't dealt with that person before.
Using Photo ID to determine a members "Bonafides" over the internet is not a guarantee the ID matches the member because you can't actually see the face of whoever is producing the ID to determine if in fact they own it, Photo ID gets stolen all the time from people. :angel:
I admit it is far better that nothing though :ok:
Personally I wouldn't hand over ANY of my personal details to a nameless and unverifiable entity on facebook or any internet site.
If the name on the licence or photo doesn't match photos of them in their facebook account they have to go further to be allowed to sell aswell. Its only if you wish to sell aswell and then if you say no you are still permitted to buy just not sell, often this scares away those wanting to be dodgy but also alot of those who dont feel comfortable sharing their ID which in this day and age is understandable. Its just the best method we have found to keep the dodgy people at bay
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='106540' dateline='1489362195'I'm assuming you havent been a member on FNQ for some time? Alot of the offenders you speak of were outcast from FNQ a while back hence why there are multiple groups popping up, most of these arose due to the selling conditions on FNQ no longer being favourable audiences to their selling practices so they have had to go out and create their own groups to continue selling their items.
As for the nobodies unfortunately you will never be able to stop every one of the 10,000 plus members we manage from speaking (if you have a way by all means I'm open) and understand that is why alot of knowledgeable people no longer comment. They do however still talk to us via messages and we in turn deal with the issues on a public front.
I can assure you in my time as admin I have pulled up trusted members, admin you name it. I couldn't give two rats who's name is at the top, if the coin doesn't pass mustard I'm onto it like a fat kid in a cake shop. My role is to protect buyers not the interests of the sellers no matter who they are.
Yes you would be right because I got kicked off for having a go at the owner for stealing pic's from ebay and not giving credit where due so I was and am actually happy not to be there with scum like that and as for this other total BS about getting rid of the bad eggs why is a "grader" still there after he got busted shill bidding and another that sold a known fake as that person was sprooking at an ANDA coin show how they just bought a fake and was going to put it straight on FB and they did, admittedly they did give a refund but only because the buyer was well know and nothing was done to either member as they're all good mates as you well know now being an admin and they all sick together and cover each others backs and that's just two examples, that they don't like people knowing or talking about.
If you can sort them out like you say you are I wish you all the best and rally hope you can but just a word of warning is to watch your back as they'll soon boot you to if you unset the apple cart too much.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106549' dateline='1489366110'Using Photo ID to determine a members "Bonafides" over the internet is not a guarantee the ID matches the member because you can't actually see the face of whoever is producing the ID to determine if in fact they own it, Photo ID gets stolen all the time from people. :angel:
I admit it is far better that nothing though :ok:
Personally I wouldn't hand over ANY of my personal details to a nameless and unverifiable entity on facebook or any internet site.
I'm the same and prefer not to deal than to risk having my details all over the net and with the amount of FB account constantly getting hacked there's even less chance of me handing over my details. They think and say the people have authority to gather these ID's but under what law and what recourse do people have if their ID gets stolen from these people if they get hacked and don't say it can't happen as I got hacked about 12 months ago and it happens all the time.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='106547' dateline='1489365100'Trout we have Verified Current Photo ID of every member allowed to sell on our facebook group, this has meant a reduction in fraud to one case in the past 6 months or so which after their details were handed to the police was sorted extremely quickly, i'm betting that's a better per transaction rate than you would get from Ebay. Also all our transactions can be done through paypal to give a buyer perfect protection if they feel the need or haven't dealt with that person before.
That's one case that they might know of, what about the one's they don't because not everyone complains and if you know the right people getting a fake ID isn't really hard from what I hear.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106549' dateline='1489366110'Using Photo ID to determine a members "Bonafides" over the internet is not a guarantee the ID matches the member because you can't actually see the face of whoever is producing the ID to determine if in fact they own it, Photo ID gets stolen all the time from people. :angel:
I admit it is far better that nothing though :ok:
Personally I wouldn't hand over ANY of my personal details to a nameless and unverifiable entity on facebook or any internet site.
Yes I agree
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='106552' dateline='1489366639'If the name on the licence or photo doesn't match photos of them in their facebook account they have to go further to be allowed to sell aswell. Its only if you wish to sell aswell and then if you say no you are still permitted to buy just not sell, often this scares away those wanting to be dodgy but also alot of those who dont feel comfortable sharing their ID which in this day and age is understandable. Its just the best method we have found to keep the dodgy people at bay
There are many people that don't have or like putting pic's of themselves on FB and two I can think of straight up are Belly and Peter Andrews but they're well known and I totally trust them as they're two of a very few that I buy off so matching pic's and licences doesn't sound right and honest people don't always like becoming well known and showing their licence to unknown entities that run these pages. I don't like having pic's of myself of FB so there's only one or two so does that make me bad or a criminal because I'm a bit reserved?? Most people on here and FB know who I am and once we're friends I don't mind but there's a lot of freaks out there that I don't want them to know who I am and I bet there's lots of other that think the same way :winkextra:
Oh and you won't find many pic's of the owners of this forum either and I can understand and don't blame them but they are well known and greatly trusted as are so many others that don't share pic's.
I'm more worried about all the charity stuff they do on FB pages because you don't know if the money is going to where it should as there's been a few beauties where they've made people feel uncomfortable for not giving and then to find out the person was a fraud so there's a few things to be very sceptical of on FB.
There are many people that don't have or like putting pic's of themselves on FB and two I can think of straight up are Belly and Peter Andrews but they're well known and I totally trust them as they're two of a very few that I buy off so matching pic's and licences doesn't sound right and honest people don't always like becoming well known and showing their licence to unknown entities that run these pages. I don't like having pic's of myself of FB so there's only one or two so does that make me bad or a criminal because I'm a bit reserved?? Most people on here and FB know who I am and once we're friends I don't mind but there's a lot of freaks out there that I don't want them to know who I am and I bet there's lots of other that think the same way :winkextra:
I completely understand that, just as admin what other means do we have of protecting our buyers from the less than reputable people that seem to plague the industry. This works and although it does upset a minority (probably 1 in 50 we message for ID declines) its not saying they are bad, they could just be security conscious but in the end we don't know who they are and for selling goods of varying values that becomes risky.
Its no different to the RSL club scanning your ID before allowing you in, you are not forced to but if you would like to come in its something you are required to do. Can always say no thanks and go to the pub :)
As for charity auctions there are only two allowed, salvos and the wells where money is paid direct to the charities not through anyone (now mostly conducted in a separate group) too many personal tragedies were coming up that were fake caused a full ban on all those a while back so that is no longer an issue :)
Gee do they scan ID's at the club now, shows ho long it's been, long time between drink :)
Yes the scammers did a lot of damage and it put so many people off but them's the breaks I suppose. All you can do is try and not get caught out by them :winkextra:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106554' dateline='1489367112'That's one case that they might know of, what about the one's they don't because not everyone complains and if you know the right people getting a fake ID isn't really hard from what I hear.
Not FB AFAIK,but he may have hit there as well,but the guy selling non-existent Laptops on Ebay and GT a few years back had over 80 alias and PayPal Accts.
How did he get the ID to open the Bank accts. for PayPal?,the Laptops were only a sideline ,god knows what his main goal/scam was.
The Police didn't get him,a IT consultant that had been scammed tracked him down and did all the Detective work,then the Police were called.
Quote...
"Gee do they scan ID's at the club now, shows how long it's been, long time between drink"Yeah AJ,if your not a member the machine takes your DL, scans it and spits out a temporary Membership card and returns your DL.
First one i saw was at Saints leagues around 2010 and Chatswood RSL the following year,probably everywhere now.
I'm pretty active in the /r/Dogecoin community on Reddit (and less so in many others there). There are groups there set up specifically as marketplaces, and I have to say that I'd prefer the platform to Facebook any day. For starters, while anyone can create fake accounts, every word you say becomes part of the permanent record which anyone can read through. Which makes it pretty easy to identify the scumbags, and also to pick out the brand-new fake accounts.
I've had more than a gutful of the bullshit on FB, and there is no way I'd ever join another coin group there. Given that in my opinion the best protection is not some admin who may or may not have your best interests at heart, but rather your own knowledge and experience, which are actively suppressed by said admins, that makes FB toxic for newbies.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='106571' dateline='1489374524'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106554' dateline='1489367112'That's one case that they might know of, what about the one's they don't because not everyone complains and if you know the right people getting a fake ID isn't really hard from what I hear.
Not FB AFAIK,but he may have hit there as well,but the guy selling non-existent Laptops on Ebay and GT a few years back had over 80 alias and PayPal Accts.
How did he get the ID to open the Bank accts. for PayPal?,the Laptops were only a sideline ,god knows what his main goal/scam was.
The Police didn't get him,a IT consultant that had been scammed tracked him down and did all the Detective work,then the Police were called.
Quote..."Gee do they scan ID's at the club now, shows how long it's been, long time between drink"
Yeah AJ,if your not a member the machine takes your DL, scans it and spits out a temporary Membership card and returns your DL.
First one i saw was at Saints leagues around 2010 and Chatswood RSL the following year,probably everywhere now.
Gee it's probably been 15 years since I last went to the club here so maybe they have them but then it does take a long time for technology to get here, same as new release coins :dodgy:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106572' dateline='1489374673'I'm pretty active in the /r/Dogecoin community on Reddit (and less so in many others there). There are groups there set up specifically as marketplaces, and I have to say that I'd prefer the platform to Facebook any day. For starters, while anyone can create fake accounts, every word you say becomes part of the permanent record which anyone can read through. Which makes it pretty easy to identify the scumbags, and also to pick out the brand-new fake accounts.
I've had more than a gutful of the bullshit on FB, and there is no way I'd ever join another coin group there. Given that in my opinion the best protection is not some admin who may or may not have your best interests at heart, but rather your own knowledge and experience, which are actively suppressed by said admins, that makes FB toxic for newbies.
:agreed:
Have to roll with the times, have quite a few ANDA dealers selling through facebook these days aswell as the majority of major ebay sellers also have a presence there. Still beats the old days where you bought a coin blind from a catalogue :)
Each to their own i guess but its quite a nice community there now and far from toxic, it has matured alot since the early days. The real toxic environment as we all know is the cleaned garbage still being sold to our newbies as ChUNC from "reputable" dealers, now that's a far bigger problem than the selling platform people are using.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='106580' dateline='1489377830'Have to roll with the times
Not when you're officially a Grumpy Old Man, you don't. :angel:
I just wish some of the sellers would take better pic's instead of being on one side of the room with the coin on the other and then saying "that's the best I can do" as some of the fuzzy spots they say is a coin could be anything.
Can we start a "grumpy old man's club"..sign me up :)
haha i wish some auction houses did that aswell, some of the photos you cant see surface preservation in the slightest and they expect you to pay thousands per coin based on them. They need to go for a trip to the states and have a chat to the heritage photographers. WOW they know how to treat a coin and make it look its best
Yes and some of the auction houses don't even post a pic and expect people to bid :blink: Makes it hard as not everyone can get to viewings to see the coins in hand.
e.g http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/search/?sale=114&g=&q=&e=&p=2 you have to go half way down the second page before you see a pic instead of "image not available" :dash1:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106585' dateline='1489378351'Can we start a "grumpy old man's club"..sign me up :)
Too late:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1442754782629094/
Doesn't mean we can't start our own :friends:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106598' dateline='1489381850'Doesn't mean we can't start our own :friends:
We already have one here
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='106600' dateline='1489382128'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106598' dateline='1489381850'Doesn't mean we can't start our own :friends:
We already have one here
:laughingneqw::laughingneqw::laughingneqw::laughingneqw:
QuoteHave to roll with the times
Not if it requires me to lower my expectations and have to mix in with the pond scum.:angel:
I think I will just stick to the Dealers I know and eBay thank you :ok:
Pond Scum...Ouch, someone needs a coffee :P
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='106600' dateline='1489382128'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106598' dateline='1489381850'Doesn't mean we can't start our own :friends:
We already have one here
Now now Stevo, we do have some lovely ladies so not all grumpy old men :)
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='106606' dateline='1489383326'Pond Scum...Ouch, someone needs a coffee :P
Nah, he's a fish boy, remember? Pond scum is about his speed. :angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106620' dateline='1489394718'Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='106606' dateline='1489383326'Pond Scum...Ouch, someone needs a coffee :P
Nah, he's a fish boy, remember? Pond scum is about his speed. :angel:
Trout do not live in polluted water, Catfish, Carp and other shit fish seem to thrive there though :angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106624' dateline='1489405379'Trout do not live in polluted water
So what, they hop on a bus outta there or something? :dodgy:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106625' dateline='1489407205'Quote from: 'trout' pid='106624' dateline='1489405379'Trout do not live in polluted water
So what, they hop on a bus outta there or something? :dodgy:
No they just move out or expire, You are obviously Not a fisherman are you :angel:
Normally if the trout return to a river system it is because the quality of the water and habitat has cleaned up, A great example of this is when in the UK the "Clean Air act was introduced .
After the "Clean air Act" was introduced for the greater London area the Trout returned to the Thames river eventually because the pollution and other nasties had been flushed out of the system.
Hopefully Old Mate Cockatoo Coins can effect the same changes on the facebook pages But I don't like his chances because the "Riff Raff" will just create a new page and refuse to admit anyone that would have a detrimental effect on their Scams.
Hopefully this will explain my "Trout" analogy :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106528' dateline='1489354587'He says he grades to "aussie" standards but who knows what that is because I thought that the standard was ANDA and his grading scale is copied from PCGS :blink:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
I think it's the second one Eric :dodgy: He grades according to how much he likes you so if you run a FB page and promote his rubbish you get better grades and maybe some other kickbacks like a reduced fee..who knows but there's just so much suss stuff happening it's not funny, also if he want to get a coin cheap off someone he'll grade it low so he can get it cheaper when he's shill bidding :dodgy:
sound like it might be a good idea to stay away from this guy , seems he cannot tell a MS coin from a AU coin and has his own grading standards no one else wants , needs or understands
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106627' dateline='1489408707'Not a fisherman are you
Nope. The only thing I ever caught was a seagull. Off the back of my boat cruising up the Yarra in the middle of the city.
Oh, and a cold or three... ;)
Quote from: 'frenc11' pid='106630' dateline='1489420520'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106528' dateline='1489354587'He says he grades to "aussie" standards but who knows what that is because I thought that the standard was ANDA and his grading scale is copied from PCGS :blink:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
I think it's the second one Eric :dodgy: He grades according to how much he likes you so if you run a FB page and promote his rubbish you get better grades and maybe some other kickbacks like a reduced fee..who knows but there's just so much suss stuff happening it's not funny, also if he want to get a coin cheap off someone he'll grade it low so he can get it cheaper when he's shill bidding :dodgy:
sound like it might be a good idea to stay away from this guy , seems he cannot tell a MS coin from a AU coin and has his own grading standards no one else wants , needs or understands
Yes stay well clear and don't send coins to get graded and if you buy one already slabbed have a really good look at the coin and not the grade on it as it could go well at pcgs but you have to have a good look as Stevo has had a few that were graded low change over well but then other people haven't looked at the coin so well and gone off the grade and sent them to pcgs and the coin has been body bagged :(
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106632' dateline='1489436303'Quote from: 'trout' pid='106627' dateline='1489408707'Not a fisherman are you
Nope. The only thing I ever caught was a seagull. Off the back of my boat cruising up the Yarra in the middle of the city.
Oh, and a cold or three... ;)
:pirate:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106527' dateline='1489329675'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
Well as this "Grader" has pretty much copied PCGS's name I would imagine that he is striving to grade by PCGS standards as well and is failing in this quite miserably :angel:
He has not just copied PCGS' name. He has copied PCGS' grading standard from the PCGS website word-for-word! So according to his own website, he is suppose to grade by PCGS' standard.
Eric
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106528' dateline='1489354587'He says he grades to "aussie" standards but who knows what that is because I thought that the standard was ANDA and his grading scale is copied from PCGS :blink:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
I think it's the second one Eric :dodgy: He grades according to how much he likes you so if you run a FB page and promote his rubbish you get better grades and maybe some other kickbacks like a reduced fee..who knows but there's just so much suss stuff happening it's not funny, also if he want to get a coin cheap off someone he'll grade it low so he can get it cheaper when he's shill bidding :dodgy:
Yes, we all remember "Xavier Paterson". He was caught red-handed!
Personally if any graded coin isn't in an NGC or PCGS slab I have absolutely NO interest in it.
I can't be bothered with buying a coin in a APCGS slab just to crack it out and have it regraded when I could buy the same coin "Raw" for most probably less money.
Another reason why I won't touch a APCGS coin is that I refuse to support this "Grader" in any way, shape or form :ok:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106639' dateline='1489440419'He has not just copied PCGS' name. He has copied PCGS' grading standard from the PCGS website word-for-word! So according to his own website, he is suppose to grade by PCGS' standard.
Eric
Yes, we all remember "Xavier Paterson". He was caught red-handed!
Yes that's exactly what he did but him and his stooges say "no it's aussie" give me a break :dodgy:
Yes I bet there's a lot that wish people would forget besides him and that's what annoys me when the admin make out like it didn't happen and delete posts that tell the truth and boot people for bring it up but he's still there when he shouldn't be. If I did the same thing I would have been booted quick smart..and they wonder why people get disheartened with the industry, these people aren't doing the hobby any favours that's for sure :dodgy:
I have cracked many many hundreds of APCGS slabs and submitted to PCGS on behalf of customers. Two things I can tell you from doing this, often those coins with crazy low grades such as an obvious AU coin being graded F or something it is almost always the result of a problem with the coin that has been nett graded so avoid these. Grade ranges in the EF45-55 provide the most chance for upgrades if you are buying for that purpose however a fair percentage of the coins (roughly 30% of predecimals) in this range also would receive a details grade from PCGS so have to be careful.
Buying MS coins in the hopes of an upgrade is less successful with a 50/50 as to whether it will go up or down.
OK. If there's variability in the grading of the APCGS coins then that's fine (because Cockatoo Coins and others have proven it). If he's lifted the PCGS grading standard word for word from the PCGS website that's fine (because he has and there's no disputing it). But there's no need to insult the guy or slander him. I don't want to get sued because someone else can't keep the conversation civil. Please watch what you post.
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='106526' dateline='1489328955'If this "grader" sometimes overgrades and other times undergrades, then either 1) he is grading to a standard that no one here understands, or 2) he is not grading to a standard at all.
Either way, I reckon you'd both agree that you couldn't assume that his grades will cross the same to PCGS.
Eric
NGC and PCGS undergrade and overgrade (and grade correctly) according to their own standards. As a good company should to they seem concentrate on reducing the standard deviation of their grading about the correct grade. They'll never reduce it to zero but both of them have reduced it enough that the market has confidence in them.
It's difficult to say if APCGS is concentrating on reducing their grading variability because of the frequency at which their grading standards change. I noted with some amusement a poster on a FB forum last week with an APCGS MS70 coin considering sending it in for a re-grade because APCGS offered to do it for free. Re-grade an MS70?! :dodgy:
I don't think you can really judge going off only a small handful of coins sent in to pcgs when there's so many that aren't so there might be 1 or 2 out of a thousand that can get upgraded but then what about the thousands that wouldn't or would grade worse because we don't really get to hear about those coins.
Yes NGC and PCGS appear to be trying to have a standard and that's why they employ multiple graders but can the same be said for other :huh:
If you think I've said something I shouldn't have Mark I'm sorry so please message me and let me know and I'll amend my post or edit what you think should be taken out but I don't think I've said anything that hasn't been true because a few people that have been around a while know what has been swept under the rug on FB. I don't want to get you into trouble but I think people should be informed about the sort of person they're thinking about dealing with and then it's up to them if they want to go down that path or not :winkextra:
Wow, yes that makes perfect sense to regrade a coin that is suppose to be perfect so I wonder what it would grade up to :scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106652' dateline='1489473420'..... so I wonder what it would grade up to :scratch_one-s_head:
MS70+ :laugh2:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106652' dateline='1489473420'I think people should be informed about the sort of person they're thinking about dealing with and then it's up to them if they want to go down that path or not
Sure, in a perfect world. But its not.
Late last week, I ended up refereeing a stoush where someone was accused of misappropriating $180,000, spat the dummy bigtime and made all manner of threats.
There were at least a dozen central players in this fiasco, including strong supporters on both sides, independent arbiters (who were pre-empted before they could do the forensics), and me, trying to herd cats.
As of this afternoon, it looks like the genie is sort of back in the bottle, but both genie and bottle are more than slightly the worse for wear. There WILL be legal repercussions, which may or may not make the organisation stronger, but we'll have to wait and see.
The point is that the attackers genuinely believed they had a legitimate complaint against the person, but rather than follow even remotely rational procedures, they went public with what is effectively slander, because they didn't understand what they were seeing and totally misinterpreted it.
Even if they'd been 100% correct in their allegations, they still went about it in a completely wrong way. Since they were at least 95% wrong, that makes it even worse.
To come back to grading, there are many reasons why I would never use a particular service, even if I was inclined towards slabbing, which I'm not. And I think everyone here, and probably anyone who's been a client, would understand those reasons, and probably concur. It really doesn't help to bandy them about publicly I think.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='106655' dateline='1489475658'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106652' dateline='1489473420'..... so I wonder what it would grade up to :scratch_one-s_head:
MS70+ :laugh2:
:laugh2:
I had to ask :dodgy: How long until we get a double + or more.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106660' dateline='1489480269'I had to ask :dodgy: How long until we get a double + or more.
Would +++ be anything like XXX do you suppose? Or that XXXX that comes out of a cat's nether regions? :angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106657' dateline='1489479818'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106652' dateline='1489473420'I think people should be informed about the sort of person they're thinking about dealing with and then it's up to them if they want to go down that path or not
Sure, in a perfect world. But its not.
Late last week, I ended up refereeing a stoush where someone was accused of misappropriating $180,000, spat the dummy bigtime and made all manner of threats.
There were at least a dozen central players in this fiasco, including strong supporters on both sides, independent arbiters (who were pre-empted before they could do the forensics), and me, trying to herd cats.
As of this afternoon, it looks like the genie is sort of back in the bottle, but both genie and bottle are more than slightly the worse for wear. There WILL be legal repercussions, which may or may not make the organisation stronger, but we'll have to wait and see.
The point is that the attackers genuinely believed they had a legitimate complaint against the person, but rather than follow even remotely rational procedures, they went public with what is effectively slander, because they didn't understand what they were seeing and totally misinterpreted it.
Even if they'd been 100% correct in their allegations, they still went about it in a completely wrong way. Since they were at least 95% wrong, that makes it even worse.
To come back to grading, there are many reasons why I would never use a particular service, even if I was inclined towards slabbing, which I'm not. And I think everyone here, and probably anyone who's been a client, would understand those reasons, and probably concur. It really doesn't help to bandy them about publicly I think.
Yes I se your point as it's only free publicity and if we don't talk about you know who, hopefully they will just fade away (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sOsjU-SdyE) into oblivion
Now this is just for Fulvio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8) :mocking:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106662' dateline='1489480568'Or that XXXX that comes out of a cat's nether regions? :angel:
Lots of 100% genuine "slabs" produced there :angel: :yahoo:
Oh the toilet humour, and I thought I was hopeless :laugh2:
And I love their grading system of Heavy Gold Lite :biggrin::cool:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106662' dateline='1489480568'XXXX that comes out of a cat's nether regions? :angel:
:dodgy: (http://i64.tinypic.com/10gwefm.jpg) :angel:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106663' dateline='1489481096'Now this is just for Fulvio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8) :mocking:
Thanks. Of course I stole it for FB. :yahoo:
I have no doubt as to the validity of everyone's statements in this thread, although I am left slightly bemused that Cockatoo Coins has (quote) cracked many HUNDREDS of APCGS slabs to be regraded with PCGS.
What would seem obvious to me is this is an indication of many customer's complete lack of satisfaction with this company.:dodgy:
That adds up to a big bunch of punters who have thrown a big bunch of cash down the proverbial gurgler:kez_15:
Happy to grade any coins for anybody if they are only going to regrade then anyway! 'Pay for ten - get one free':blush:
:laugh2: make it two free and we have a deal :)
Yes it sure does make you wonder doesn't it Robster, how much damage is this doing to collecting now and for the long term :scratch_one-s_head:
And kidneys' everywhere! :angel:
If you want a kidney I'm your man Robster :mocking:
QuoteNow all of you bow down before me. :Yahoo: :Yahoo: :Yahoo: :Yahoo: :Yahoo:
I found an app to determine the direction of Mecca but...where is the app to determine the direction of MarkN? I would hate to accidentally moon you when I intended to bow down toward you!
:laugh2:
In today's news .....
http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/theft-charges-for-wa-coin-company-director/news-story/12d5c3c50ad5c10fca59b4d2f9411f69 (http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/theft-charges-for-wa-coin-company-director/news-story/12d5c3c50ad5c10fca59b4d2f9411f69)
Penny Pinching?
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='111625' dateline='1505357825'In today's news .....
http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/theft-charges-for-wa-coin-company-director/news-story/12d5c3c50ad5c10fca59b4d2f9411f69 (http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/theft-charges-for-wa-coin-company-director/news-story/12d5c3c50ad5c10fca59b4d2f9411f69)
Penny Pinching?
NO surprises there Mate :dodgy::angel:
I recently came across these listings in an auction catalog.
Quote3114 Australia, Victoria, Adelaide pound, type two, 1852, date below crown within border, rev. value within border (KM.2; Fr.3), small planchet flaw at 2-3 o'clock by edge, uncirculated £14,000-16,000. Purchased from The Rare Coin Company for A$190,000.
3115 Australia, Victoria, Adelaide pound, type two, 1852, date below crown within border, rev. value within border (KM.2; Fr.3), about uncirculated £12,000-14,000 Sold as 'nice uncirculated' for A$140,000 by The Rare Coin Company
Those are massively inflated prices. They are more like Type I Adelaide pound prices.
Some potential fall-out in today's news ....
http://www.news.com.au/finance/superannuation/super-sting-for-owner-of-rare-fiveshilling-banknote-expected-to-fetch-70000-at-auction/news-story/c3fbcf832a6809067b71d10b8bfa9928 (http://www.news.com.au/finance/superannuation/super-sting-for-owner-of-rare-fiveshilling-banknote-expected-to-fetch-70000-at-auction/news-story/c3fbcf832a6809067b71d10b8bfa9928)
$70,000 seems cheap but I guess the bank-note market it still down.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='112850' dateline='1510893377'Some potential fall-out in today's news ....
http://www.news.com.au/finance/superannuation/super-sting-for-owner-of-rare-fiveshilling-banknote-expected-to-fetch-70000-at-auction/news-story/c3fbcf832a6809067b71d10b8bfa9928 (http://www.news.com.au/finance/superannuation/super-sting-for-owner-of-rare-fiveshilling-banknote-expected-to-fetch-70000-at-auction/news-story/c3fbcf832a6809067b71d10b8bfa9928)
That article states that the 5 shilling note was prepared because they feared hoarding of the 5 shilling coin due to the spike in the silver price :huh: Since when has a crown been called a 5 shilling coin and did the English crown ever have that much circulation in Australia?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='112855' dateline='1510937768'Since when has a crown been called a 5 shilling coin and did the English crown ever have that much circulation in Australia?
Yeah I was a little skeptical about English crowns circulating too much as well - the last circulation pieces were struck in 1900 (and in lowish numbers too).