http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2004-Baby-Coin-Set-in-Proof-MASSIVE-ERROR-SET-The-1-coin-missing-Hologram/331714303871?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D69d9019eb5a44fce92a8f27efdc2120a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D282279219831
The coins in these 2004 Baby proof sets come in "Airtight's" which are NOT sealed and can be easily tampered with or replaced.
The hologram on the $1 coin in these sets can be easily removed with acetone and according to the sellers description "it does not have a proof appearance" it appears to have been dipped or otherwise treated as well to remove the star shaped tarnish/toning that is so very common with this set.
This listing is not from an amateur eBay seller it is from a B&T Coin Dealer that should know better.
At least I hope that the dealer is "Misinformed" and is not trying to pull off a scam similar to the scam with the Coloured Proof 2000 Millennium 50c coin.
As with ALL of the "Missing" colour or design "Errors" where the pad printed coins are concerned a healthy scepticism is highly recommended.
What are your thoughts on this "Error"?
Looks like a product of the AJ Trout Mint Corp. :angel:
Another missing paint "Error" :dodgy:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2012-2-Red-Poppy-Error-Coin-Missing-Poppy-Rare/142260227826?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D38c8a1be93f3444fae6d6a66365c9aee%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201798616413
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104948' dateline='1486300558'Looks like a product of the AJ Trout Mint Corp. :angel:
Hey hey hey, not cool dude :dodgy: We make legit errors :blush2: :angel: :laugh2:
I have asked a question of that seller...
Quote"Looking closely one can see where the colour should be"
Surely you mean "where the colour was before it was removed with acetone"?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='104949' dateline='1486302074'Another missing paint "Error"
:dodgy: You can see where the paint was. What a drongo. :shok:
"the paint hasn't been scratched off" ... but missing the bit "we have used a treatment to remove it" :dodgy:
Pedro
The Poppy coin is your usual eBay garbage But the 2004 Proof set listing is from a Dealer in Perth that actually has a shop in the City.
I find it hard to believe that this dealer is listing this "Newly found Error" :dodgy:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='104953' dateline='1486328682'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104948' dateline='1486300558'Looks like a product of the AJ Trout Mint Corp. :angel:
Hey hey hey, not cool dude :dodgy: We make legit errors :blush2: :angel: :laugh2:
Yeah, We only specialise in "Vice Jobs" we don't mess about with chemicals :angel:
:laugh2: yeah that's right trout, maybe some chemicals now and then ;) But now that I have a few buses that pass everyday I might be able to make some more extremely rare "road kill" coin :)
Reply was;
"Hi, I did not do anything with this coin. If you look at the other one, there is also some paint off. And I have one more from the same set with the same condition."
Draw your own conclusion.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='104969' dateline='1486349667'Draw your own conclusion.
In other news, did you see that lovely double-struck $2? Price is obscene, but its a lovely coin.
I sent the seller an email about this "Error" and I got a reply back asking if the airtights used in the set could be opened or not.
It is pretty hard to believe that an established Dealer is ignorant as to how various coin sets are packaged by the various Mints.
I have spoken to this dealer on a few occasions and I have bought coins at his shop and he doesn't come across as a "Simpleton" to Me :angel:
I am going to have a look at this set in the next couple of days, I will take pics of the capsule if I can to see if it has been tampered with
as anyone who has opened up a proof set before knows, you have to break the seal on a capsule to open it and once this is done it is obvious whether it has been opened or not no matter how carful you are opening and shutting it back up. in my experience these sets have a small plastic weld that you have to cut through before you can open the capsule
Quote from: 'serial' pid='104994' dateline='1486442854'I am going to have a look at this set in the next couple of days, I will take pics of the capsule if I can to see if it has been tampered with
as anyone who has opened up a proof set before knows, you have to break the seal on a capsule to open it and once this is done it is obvious whether it has been opened or not no matter how carful you are opening and shutting it back up. in my experience these sets have a small plastic weld that you have to cut through before you can open the capsule
The capsules in these sets are NOT sealed/glued and are Not unique and can be replaced with a new one with ease, They are just standard airtights.
I have opened hundreds of these and it can be done without damaging the capsules, So seeing if the capsule is undamaged doesn't prove that it is original or if it has been opened or not.
OK trout, your shooting from the hip again without all the facts and in the mean time defaming ANOTHER respected member of the numismatic community
go look at your capsules (I know I saved all mine) and try to put one together again without any sign of tampering. the capsules are unique to RAM and are not standard airtites. See my pictures below to see how they are sealed and that the only way to open them (this is how I do it) is to take a thin blade, wiggle it into the gap till you hear a quiet crack (breaking of the seal) then carefully wiggle it the capsule apart evenly as the capsules are so tight.
note the inside of the capsule has little bits of plastic to hold the coin in place that is unique to these capsules as they are custom made for Ram coins despite your assertions.
show me pictures of a resealed ram capsule that shows no signs of tampering then I will reconsider my position, but unlike you I am unwilling to lynch someone without seeing the evidence for my self. hence why I will go in and see the coin before I pass judgement, for once you might like to do the same and stop hiding behind your usual grumpy old man/white knight defence you pull every time someone calls you out on your abusive nature.
I actually suggest this thread be deleted before someone ends up in a Perth court because I would love to know how you intend to prove a defence to defamation trout given you cant prove that your statement is true or reasonable given you have never personally examined the coin. the only preservable outcome I can see is you issuing a written apology after wasting part of your life and money on defending the matter as stupidity is not a valid defence to defamation
And before you shoot your mouth of about not being afraid to go to court why don't you think a bit about the cost this will have, legal fees, travel time/cost to attend a Perth court etc and the fact the website owners will be joined in the action for libel for publishing your defamatory statement about a person who can prove a financial loss due to your statements affecting his reputation.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/P_20170207_142228_vHDR_Auto.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/P_20170207_142105_vHDR_Auto.jpg)
Read the entire thread and tell me exactly where I have defamed anyone, I have asked for opinions as to the legitimacy of this "Error"
That is not grounds for a defamation case.
OK, trout says the capsules can be opened, Serial says they can't. We get it. I'm not inclined to destroy a proof set to determine the truth but perhaps someone else (not trout or serial) is willing conduct an experiment in the interests of forum harmony?
And back to the coin in question, I have no idea if those capsules can be opened or not but that coin looks like it's been in acetone. The ruined mirrors on the obverse are something I've seen (and caused) by the use of acetone several times. Perhaps the seller isn't aware of how it can be done?
No more arguing or this thread goes poof.
I am currently pulling a spoiled 04 proof set apart . Will be giving the $1 coin a bath in acetone tonight and will post results. I will also go into town at look at the actual set to see if there is any signs of tampering. As you can see I have a set to compare it to and have shown pictures of it.
I will make my final decision based on evidence not uninformed opinion
Quote from: 'serial' pid='105009' dateline='1486461692'I am currently pulling a spoiled 04 proof set apart . Will be giving the $1 coin a bath in acetone tonight and will post results. I will also go into town at look at the actual set to see if there is any signs of tampering. As you can see I have a set to compare it to and have shown pictures of it.
I will make my final decision based on evidence not uninformed opinion
Sounds great, let us know what happens!
Quote from: 'serial' pid='105009' dateline='1486461692'I will make my final decision based on evidence not uninformed opinion
Awesome! Exactly what we need. :heart:
QuoteI will make my final decision based on evidence not uninformed opinion
I await with baited breath your "Unbiased" opinion and BTW I have used acetone to remove the colour from RAM coins in the past so my opinion is NOT uninformed :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105014' dateline='1486476398'baited breath
Sounds fishy. But then, it would, wouldn't it, fish boy? :dodgy::angel:
The word you want is 'bated'. :) :taunt:
QuoteThe word you want is 'bated'
You are indeed correct But I like mine better, "Bated" sounds like a cricket or baseball bat is involved :angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105014' dateline='1486476398'QuoteI will make my final decision based on evidence not uninformed opinion
I await with baited breath your "Unbiased" opinion and BTW I have used acetone to remove the colour from RAM coins in the past so my opinion is NOT uninformed :ok:
sorry didn't realise I was wasting my time and coin , could you please just put up pictures of the 04 proof you removed the hologram from so I wont need to put up any more pictures of my one
in the mean time I will try to inform the uninformed with the following pictures knowing yet again your "misrepresenting" the truth to put it nicely and have never removed the hologram from an 04 proof
I am also still waiting for you to prove that a coin can be re sealed in a broken open capsule without any signs of tampering, something we disagree on as per markn's post, pictures would be nice.
in the mean time I will explore what a coin looks like with its hologram removed
The doomed proof set
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/P_20170207_203707_vHDR_Auto.jpg)
the coins broken from their plastic prison
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/P_20170207_220856_vHDR_Auto.jpg)
the $1 coin in its bath
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/P_20170207_221149_vHDR_Auto.jpg)
I will dig out a $1 capsule I have broken open previously to remove a proof for grading to prove my point and will update pictures of the soaking $1 coin in the morning after I take my son to baby rhyme time
Quote from: 'serial' pid='105017' dateline='1486478763'put up pictures of the 04 proof you removed the hologram from
That's not what he said. And you know it. Please stop baiting.
He said he's removed paint from coloured coins, not a hologram. Similar results, but given that Acetone dissolves paint whereas it likely only softens glue, its not identical.
As for the effect on the metal finish, that would depend on what contaminants are in the acetone. If it were 100% pure and uncontaminated, there
should be no ill effects.
The seller pulled the listing down yesterday.
I was wondering about how easy it is to break open proofs set because I got a few from America recently. I was looking at the 10c coin in the 1978 set I got and it has a tiny error on the reverse. Must have been struck with a tiny piece of cotton on the die or something. The set came with the foams, the mint certificate and it does not appear that the sonic seal has ever been broken.
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='105098' dateline='1486621649'I was wondering about how easy it is to break open proofs set
Pretty much impossible. Ultrasonic welding heats the contact point between the two halves, and they fuse into a single piece. So you can break it, sure, but you can't put it back together and get away with it.
Some more recent issues aren't welded though. If its a press-fit capsule, its just a matter of applying enough force without marking either half. Difficult but not impossible.
This pretty much takes care of where to get a replacement capsule for a dollar coin can be obtained.
https://eshop.ramint.gov.au/Coin-Capsule-1/6760386.aspx
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/cap1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/cap2.jpg)
I also have a spare 2004 hologram MOR that I am more than willing to send to Markn for testing in acetone to get a truly unbiased opinion as to if the hologram can be removed.
I could easily do it myself But that wouldn't be perceived as being unbiased.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105117' dateline='1486687710'This pretty much takes care of where to get a replacement capsule for a dollar coin can be obtained.
Be a bit pricey after they add their $10 Minimum Postage. OK I guess if you've got some other things to chuck on the order and spread the cost.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='105119' dateline='1486690341'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105117' dateline='1486687710'This pretty much takes care of where to get a replacement capsule for a dollar coin can be obtained.
Be a bit pricey after they add their $10 Minimum Postage. OK I guess if you've got some other things to chuck on the order and spread the cost.
Although I really don't need any more I have been adding the baggies of the changeover coins to each of my orders, That way I am getting them at face value.
I think that I have $200-$300 worth of them so far:angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105121' dateline='1486693498'I think that I have $200-$300 worth of them so far:angel:
So you'll be the guy to talk to when I want some, right? :)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105127' dateline='1486697656'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105121' dateline='1486693498'I think that I have $200-$300 worth of them so far:angel:
So you'll be the guy to talk to when I want some, right? :)
Probably :angel:
Cool. :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105117' dateline='1486687710'This pretty much takes care of where to get a replacement capsule for a dollar coin can be obtained.
https://eshop.ramint.gov.au/Coin-Capsule-1/6760386.aspx
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/cap1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/cap2.jpg)
I also have a spare 2004 hologram MOR that I am more than willing to send to Markn for testing in acetone to get a truly unbiased opinion as to if the hologram can be removed.
I could easily do it myself But that wouldn't be perceived as being unbiased.
Same ones? https://renniks.com/main.aspx?pageid=800&cat=&pid=3843 :idea:
QuoteSame ones? https://renniks.com/main.aspx?pageid=800&cat=&pid=3843
I don't know as I have never bought airtights and all the ones that I have are from various RAM sets that I have broken up for my collections.
I don't know where RAM gets theirs from but I highly doubt that they would have the infrastructure to manufacture their own and whoever RAM's supplier is would also supply other markets for these as well.
Maybe if you asked RAM they would tell you where they get theirs from?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105180' dateline='1486816870'whoever RAM's supplier is would also supply other markets for these as well.
I asked the Melbourne supplier of the press-fit capsules they use in their cards, and was told that the RAM owns the dies and they can't use them to make any for anyone else. This deal would apply to all suppliers. So unless you can convince the mint to let go of some, you're outta luck.
QuoteSo unless you can convince the mint to let go of some, you're outta luck.
No convincing needed Mate.
The capsules for the 5c, 10c, 20c, 50c, $1, $2 and $5 coins are all available through the Mint Shop.
At $1.65 a pop + $10 postage they are more expensive than the other brands though.
QuoteI asked the Melbourne supplier of the press-fit capsules they use in their cards, and was told that the RAM owns the dies and they can't use them to make any for anyone else.
These capsules that are used on the carded coins are a different design to the capsules used in the various Boxed sets.
They are not as robust as the ones used in the boxed sets and they also appear to be made of a softer plastic as well.
OK
It has been nearly a week since I was personally insulted, abused and threatened with legal action for questioning if this missing hologram coin is a genuine error of if it is a manufactured error.
Given that replacement capsules can be sourced from RAM and that acetone will remove paint, glue, and varnish from a coin I would have thought that it was quite reasonable to question the validity of this "error".
Do we now cease to question these missing paint errors in future just because it may upset the seller or that we may be subjected to abuse from other Members?
Have personal insults, abuse and threats Now become acceptable behaviour on this forum?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105183' dateline='1486845397'Given that replacement capsules can be sourced from RAM and that acetone will remove paint, glue, and varnish from a coin I would have thought that it was quite reasonable to question the validity of this "error".
Trying to increase the value of Coins by deception is a Cottage Industry now that the perpetrators have a Market Place's like Ebay to sell them.
I'm(personally) suspicious of all such 'ërrors' and just stay away knowing some will be genuine.
I wouldn't take it to heart Jim,you expressed an opinion and if someone disagrees,which is normal for a Forum,so be it,who cares,just move on.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105183' dateline='1486845397'a different design to the capsules used in the various Boxed sets.
I realise that. My point was that their policies would be the same across all products. Manufacturers can't reuse dies for other clients.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105183' dateline='1486845397'OK
It has been nearly a week since I was personally insulted, abused and threatened with legal action for questioning if this missing hologram coin is a genuine error of if it is a manufactured error.
Given that replacement capsules can be sourced from RAM and that acetone will remove paint, glue, and varnish from a coin I would have thought that it was quite reasonable to question the validity of this "error".
Do we now cease to question these missing paint errors in future just because it may upset the seller or that we may be subjected to abuse from other Members?
Have personal insults, abuse and threats Now become acceptable behaviour on this forum?
OK. That's your right of reply out of the way, you're owed that based on the other member's post. That's where it ends though, any more attempts by you or any other member to rub someones nose in it will be deleted. And any more insults or accusations directed trout's way will be treated in the same manner.
Fair enough :ok:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='105226' dateline='1486883078'And any more insults or accusations directed trout's way will be treated in the same manner.
But... but... if we can't hang shit on Trout and AJ, what meaning is there to our pitiful lives???? :dodgy:
Pass the rusty razor blades.
I would that you would be exempted Fulvio because everyone knows you are completely incorrigible :angel:
Damn, my cover's blown. ;)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105239' dateline='1486897983'Quote from: 'markn' pid='105226' dateline='1486883078'And any more insults or accusations directed trout's way will be treated in the same manner.
But... but... if we can't hang shit on Trout and AJ, what meaning is there to our pitiful lives???? :dodgy:
Pass the rusty razor blades.
:dodgy: :angel:
(http://i68.tinypic.com/6nzf6g.jpg)
:mocking:
Thanks mate. :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105183' dateline='1486845397'QuoteI asked the Melbourne supplier of the press-fit capsules they use in their cards, and was told that the RAM owns the dies and they can't use them to make any for anyone else.
These capsules that are used on the carded coins are a different design to the capsules used in the various Boxed sets.
They are not as robust as the ones used in the boxed sets and they also appear to be made of a softer plastic as well.
i have bought the lock capsules at the mint shop - years ago
you can't get them open again and i was told that they are meant to be like that
they have some sort of velcro type of grip once clipped shut
so I have all these $1 and $2 coins in the jolly capsules and nearly cut my hand off trying to slice them open - so I gave up and have the coins in a little box
very annoying
Quoteso I have all these $1 and $2 coins in the jolly capsules and nearly cut my hand off trying to slice them open - so I gave up and have the coins in a little box
very annoying
After a bit of practice you should be able to open these without any danger or effort in a few seconds :good:
A thin, sharp and strong blade is the secret, I use my carbon steel skinning knife for this and it is perfect :)