How do you store your collections?
Do you leave everything in the mint packaging?
What is your favorite system of coin storage?
I'm a nosey bugger ay:angel:
I use PP folders for coins that I put in 2x2’s
There mainly circulation coin, but If I happen to get freed coins they join them.
I have loose coin everywhere, you clear a pile and a new one replaces it, the joy of coin collecting
If I buy stuff new it stays as is, in whatever packaging.
I have a realy bad habit of not wanting to part with any of my coins, especialy my old copper Aussie coins.
These I store in the good old ice cream containers.
I also have various other coins (Silver and Brit coins in these containers)
I have a major part of my collections in PP folders but I still have a heap of US and Canadian coins in Whitman folders or in loose 2x2's and tubes.
As soon as my order of 2x2's get here I will order some more folders from PP.
I always take my coins out of the mint packaging ( except when they are a gift from a mate and they prefer that I didn't ), It saves me space and I just hate to have to open boxes etc just to look at my coins.:wavemulticolor:
In an album, which I think is the best way to do it. Anything unworthy of an album (bulk international stuff) just goes in ziplock bags from the bank.
Everything stays in packaging though. I made an exception for the Remembrance Day $2 coins though, and if I ever get anything in PVC I'll make an exception for it too.
The very few NCLT items i buy stay in the packaging. Everything else is stored in flips or 2x2s and then put in album pages. Except of course for all the other bulk stuff which i just put in calico bank bags and shove under the bed.
I use 2x2 flips
Have a couple of pp albums and loads of general binders with coin pages
I also have eagle mount holders in their pages for my better or favourite coins
Any decimal proofs mostly stay in their presentation cases
And yep , the bulk coins are in calico bags, old ice cream or buscuit tins
I also have year sorting containers (like tackle boxes) so i get bulk groupings of the years for my pennies (aust pre dec)
I use 2x2 flips
Have a couple of pp albums and loads of general binders with coin pages
I also have eagle mount holders in their pages for my better or favourite coins
Any decimal proofs mostly stay in their presentation cases
And yep , the bulk coins are in calico bags, old ice cream or buscuit tins
I also have year sorting containers (like tackle boxes) so i get bulk groupings of the years for my pennies (aust pre dec)
Steel tins and PVC tackle boxes will eventualy stain your coins :Alvarin_33:
I am a coin collector....not a packaging collector. I only collect what looks like it would come in change. Decimals are all in unlabeled dansco supremes. Predecimals in normal dansco supremes. My euro collection in lighthouse albums similar to dansco supremes. Aussie and world banknotes (over 10000 world notes) are all in vario f3c folders in vario pages.
I use 2x2 flips
Have a couple of pp albums and loads of general binders with coin pages
I also have eagle mount holders in their pages for my better or favourite coins
Any decimal proofs mostly stay in their presentation cases
And yep , the bulk coins are in calico bags, old ice cream or buscuit tins
I also have year sorting containers (like tackle boxes) so i get bulk groupings of the years for my pennies (aust pre dec)
Visited some friends last weekend and was given these -salvaged from a Medicare office that was being stripped when they moved in with Centrelink. The price was right.
Should be good for my few (very few) valuables.
Cat was not included!
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10055/Safes.JPG)
There must be thousands of these that are probably being scrapped.
Wow does the time delay lock work?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75720' dateline='1437099797'Wow does the time delay lock work?
Yes, it is clockwork, started by turning the key and adjustable from 1 to 15 minutes. You then have 1 to 4 minutes (also adjustable) to be able to open before it locks again.
The wiring just operates a light to tell you it can now be opened but, if you are close, you can here the 'click' when it unlocks.
There is also a 'posting' slot above the door so you don't have to open it to put small items in.
wondered what that was
very cool
I want one ..... for my dried apricots
the son pinches my expensive aussie grown ones all the time!
QuoteWell yes, of course.
But you have to wait out the timer before you can satisfy the craving. Same for me with dark chocolate (preferably minimal sugar so it has that real chocolate bitter edge to the taste). I came across a recipe for chocolate chilli ice cream the other day -looking forward to trying that but might wait until warmer weather. I wonder if it is going to be better than the durian ice cream I had in Singapore years ago -it has been banned from being sold in the shopping malls now; if you don't know why, just google "durian".
tough mudder ice cream!!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75743' dateline='1437127973'tough mudder ice cream!!
AJ is just fine, the cold weather is knocking him around heaps.
Be patient sweetheart he 'Will be BACK" :ok::)
ta xx
Quote from: 'trout' pid='75747' dateline='1437138679'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75743' dateline='1437127973'tough mudder ice cream!!
AJ is just fine, the cold weather is knocking him around heaps.
Be patient sweetheart he 'Will be BACK" :ok::)
I was wondering where he'd got to. I rearranged and moved the burl bowl he gave me.
Off-topic that!
Oh wait I moved in into my brand new Ikea display cabinet for some of the special things.
On-topic now.
did you have to use a jolly forklift for that!!
mine when it is loaded with fruit is really dazzling (and really heavy!!) We love it xx
it will outlast the renovations
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75756' dateline='1437190393'did you have to use a jolly forklift for that!!
mine when it is loaded with fruit is really dazzling (and really heavy!!) We love it xx
it will outlast the renovations
Yours is just a bit bigger than mine!
ha ha PP
good thing we aren't blokes having this conversation ha ha!!
QuoteYours is just a bit bigger than mine!
I wouldn't even think of going there.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='75760' dateline='1437197997'QuoteYours is just a bit bigger than mine!
I wouldn't even think of going there.
Haha :P
By the way might as well go back to the main topic of coin storage. I am a bit between these two display boxes for a rather special coin that I have in mind. Which one looks better?
[attachment=3261][attachment=3260]
I like the white one so that means you should go with the blue :-/
Pedro
Quote from: 'trout' pid='75747' dateline='1437138679'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75743' dateline='1437127973'tough mudder ice cream!!
AJ is just fine, the cold weather is knocking him around heaps.
Be patient sweetheart he 'Will be BACK" :ok::)
called in to see aj the other day ..
he's just hibernating. got the beany well down over his ears and a couple of extra pounds to get thru winter :D
cool thanks - good to know - he said something about locking up or locking down for the winter
OMF - I like the white one with the slab
Quote from: 'duggee27' pid='75765' dateline='1437203771'Quote from: 'trout' pid='75747' dateline='1437138679'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75743' dateline='1437127973'tough mudder ice cream!!
AJ is just fine, the cold weather is knocking him around heaps.
Be patient sweetheart he 'Will be BACK" :ok::)
called in to see aj the other day ..
he's just hibernating. got the beany well down over his ears and a couple of extra pounds to get thru winter :D
Yeah and it was so good to see you again duggee and welcome to call in any time mate :friends: Yeah I always put weight on over winter/during hibernation :laugh2:
Quote from: 'Pedro' pid='75763' dateline='1437202970'I like the white one so that means you should go with the blue :-/
Pedro
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75769' dateline='1437217302'cool thanks - good to know - he said something about locking up or locking down for the winter
OMF - I like the white one with the slab
Thanks I will go with the white one then with the glass top. Now just have to get the coin lol :P
OMF is it white or clear? can I see like a shadow there, be good to see the coin in the box so you don't have to open it to see the coin but I wonder how easy it would get scratched, tough call on that one mate :scratch_one-s_head:
Just wondering how people find the SAFLIPS for long term storage. I search thousands of mint rolls over here in NZ and do my best to put a few errors away for myself and a few spares to sell in the future. I have recently started putting them in saflips and heat sealing them so just wanted to see if anyone else has had any issues with doing this.
So far I have learnt to avoid a few brands of cardboard flips especially the self adhesive ones that toned a heap of $1 coin errors from 6-7 year ago. It was lucky that only half were in self adhesive holders (brand name ones) and the other half in the cheapest cardboard flips I could find. The crazy thing is the the cheap flips kept the coins looking brand new.
I've only been using SAFlips for a couple of years now so can't really answer yet sorry but others hear have been using them longer so hopefully one of them will jump in and I've never bought the self adhesive type of 2x2 and like you I buy the cheapest one's I can find and that's normally from online coins, here's a link to them, mainly get off him as it's the closest coin shop to me and he's also on feebay as well.
http://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/
Awesome thanks again Ausjack.
last year I put UNC $1 coins in 6 different coin holders to see how they went but it will be a few years before I notice any real change. The last time I did this I found a holder that was great but they dont make them anymore so it was back to the start all over again.
I wonder how much freight would be as I spot a few things a lot cheaper than what I can get over here. I rather like the Quadrum holders for my commemorative medal collection but dont have to many coins stored in them at the moment
Do you like the square or round as I have a couple I could send for you to try if you like, I just find them a bit bulky and take up a bit too much room so stick to the 2x2 and SAFlips. I'll have a look at the sizes I have and get back to you.
I've only been using the Saflips for four years I think but haven't any issues so far.
One thing I don't like about the flips are that the coins move around a lot more that 2x2's that tend to hold them tighter but you have to have the right size or they too will move.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='76150' dateline='1437735769'Do you like the square or round as I have a couple I could send for you to try if you like, I just find them a bit bulky and take up a bit too much room so stick to the 2x2 and SAFlips. I'll have a look at the sizes I have and get back to you.
Thanks ausjack I like the Square Quadrums but am sorted for those at the moment as I ordered a bunch from the US before the NZD dropped to bad. They do take up a lot of room but the Quadrums XL's are great for storing some of the larger medals
Thanks Mister T. Do you seal them? I find that holds them firmer so they dont move around and the heat sealer only cost about $20
No worries mate and they look good done up like that :good:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='75816' dateline='1437302728'OMF is it white or clear? can I see like a shadow there, be good to see the coin in the box so you don't have to open it to see the coin but I wonder how easy it would get scratched, tough call on that one mate :scratch_one-s_head:
Clear mate, shadow is the frame. Oh well don't have to worry about the case till after I get the coin anyway.
Gee that's a hard choice as the timber would look really nice but then the clear top would be easier to see the coin, send me the coins you'd like to put in them when you get them and that will save you a lot of trouble..just a thought mate :D
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='76145' dateline='1437734184'I've only been using SAFlips for a couple of years now so can't really answer yet sorry but others hear have been using them longer so hopefully one of them will jump in and I've never bought the self adhesive type of 2x2 and like you I buy the cheapest one's I can find and that's normally from online coins, here's a link to them, mainly get off him as it's the closest coin shop to me and he's also on feebay as well.
http://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/
Good seller I've dealt with him before with no problems :wavemulticolor:
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='75713' dateline='1437088166'Visited some friends last weekend and was given these -salvaged from a Medicare office that was being stripped when they moved in with Centrelink. The price was right.
Should be good for my few (very few) valuables.
Cat was not included!
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10055/Safes.JPG)
There must be thousands of these that are probably being scrapped.
Does the cat fit in the box :laugh2: But what I really wanted to ask and sorry for going off topic :angel: but have you put it in the freezer :mocking: just that I've heard some of them will change colour, have you ever notice it change. Here's a link with a little about it
http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/cat-health-color-change
Change colour depending on the climate sorry
we could do with a cat trap like that for our neighbours cat
jolly nuisance as soon as the sun starts to set
http://www.pestrol.com.au/feral-cat-trap-large.html
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='76172' dateline='1437741694'Gee that's a hard choice as the timber would look really nice but then the clear top would be easier to see the coin, send me the coins you'd like to put in them when you get them and that will save you a lot of trouble..just a thought mate :D
Haha perhaps but I can tell you the coin won't be Australian ;)
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='76182' dateline='1437746059'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='76172' dateline='1437741694'Gee that's a hard choice as the timber would look really nice but then the clear top would be easier to see the coin, send me the coins you'd like to put in them when you get them and that will save you a lot of trouble..just a thought mate :D
Haha perhaps but I can tell you the coin won't be Australian ;)
You know that doesn't worry me mate as I like my world coins as well :winkextra:
Quote from: 'NZCoinerrors' pid='76136' dateline='1437728977'Just wondering how people find the SAFLIPS for long term storage.
Apart from chemicals leaching from the plastic itself, as happens with PVC, the critical performance criteria for any material are its permeability to Moisture and Oxygen, as well as other gaseous contaminants.
For example, I discovered the hard way that LDPE is not impervious to fumes given off by foam cushions and carpets, and posted about it a while back.
At high temperatures, for example,
"polyurethane foam begins to rapidly decompose, releasing gases and compounds such as hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide, acetronitrile, acrylonitrile, pyridine, ethylene, ethane, propane, butadine, propinitrile, acetaldehyde, methylacrylonitrile, benzene, pyrrole, toluene, methyl pyridine, methyl cyanobenzene, naphthalene, quinoline, indene, and carbon dioxide. Of these chemicals, carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide are considered lethal."Clearly, some of that decomposition happens at lower temperatures as well. I have a white iPod charging cable which spent a year or so draped over a foam pillow, and the section in contact with the pillow is now yellow. I'd hate to see a coin left in contact with such a pillow. I have some UNC Coronation $2's which turned green inside a sealed LDPE bag left in contact with a cushion. :(
A quick search for gas permeability turned up these little gems:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijps/2012/302029/ Which although related to food packaging, covers the basic science and methodology in this field.
http://www.faybutler.com/pdf_files/HowHoseMaterialsAffectGas3.pdf is perhaps easier to follow, as it compares permeability coefficients for common materials which might be used for hoses in welding applications. Some of which are films from which coin storage products are made.
Saflips are made of PP, Polypropylene. 2x2's are made of BoPET, otherwise known as Mylar. Standard ziplock bags, such as bank coin bags, are made of LDPE, Low Density PolyEthylene.
LDPE, as we now know, is not sufficiently impervious to gasses in close proximity.
PP and BoPET are much better. However, as you've discovered, self-adhesive 2x2's are problematic on two counts. Firstly, the adhesive has a tendency to let go, especially with large, heavy coins. Once open, there is no barrier to air reaching the coin at all. Secondly, the adhesive itself may be problematic. We don't know what it is, or what chemicals it may leach.
A non-adhesive 2x2 ironed shut provides a perfect, permanent seal, provided you don't allow the hot iron to melt the window of course. A Saflip is not as impervious, but is made of thicker material.
If you look at the chart, Saran is clearly the best barrier that's readily available. However, as it contains Chlorine atoms, we would need to find out how stable it is in the long term, and whether it will eventually leach harmful fumes. Food packaging does not have to survive for many years, so this research may be hard to find.
There are a couple of other options, at least for bulk storage.
HDPE is a very good, stable barrier to just about everything. That's why Acetone comes in HDPE containers. But it isn't clear. PET is clear, is better against gasses, but worse against moisture.
And then there are multi-layered films, such as the printed metallised Mylar you find in Helium balloons and chip packets. Obviously these are opaque, but the sandwich of different materials is designed to be as close to a perfect barrier as possible. In some cases, such as with bags of bulk coins, it may be desirable to seal them inside such
(suitably cleaned, naturally) bags. Ideally vacuum-sealed or Nitrogen flooded, should either be available.
This is what I want!
http://www.coincabinets.com/pheon.html
Wow thanks for the detailed information Fulvio. Is there anyway to test the plastic used on the cardboard flips? I have some cheap ones from china but have no idea what plastic they are made of
After a while PVC goes hard but I don't know how to tell when it's new sorry but hopefully Fulvio will fill us in :)
Quote from: 'matttheriley' pid='76191' dateline='1437763432'This is what I want!
http://www.coincabinets.com/pheon.html
Yes that looks nice Matt but I'd be very careful of any felt type stuff as the 66 proof set is a prime eg of how the blue felt damages the coins, leave the silver with a real smoky appearance :dodgy:
Quote from: 'NZCoinerrors' pid='76195' dateline='1437773814'Wow thanks for the detailed information Fulvio. Is there anyway to test the plastic used on the cardboard flips? I have some cheap ones from china but have no idea what plastic they are made of
The only way to test plastic really is to burn it and analyze the gasses.
But AFAIK, all cardboard mounts use Mylar/BoPET. Its the only stuff that has the right mechanical properties at that thickness.
PVC is easy to identify cos it stinks, basically. And it feels slimy. Just about everything else you're likely to come across is safe in itself. Possibly excepting some food packaging which may have organic additives that might leach. Even chlorides should be safe enough, provided the molecules don't break down, which they shouldn't in normal use. But I personally avoid them anyway, because there are stable alternatives.
Oh, and speaking of avoidance.. a big open metal box? Pass.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='76266' dateline='1437805335'Oh, and speaking of avoidance.. a big open metal box? Pass.
Well at least yours does have a door .....
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/mcduck_bin.jpg)
:laugh2:
I am able to collect silica gel sachets from some products I handle. They are commonly used in electronic products to avoid moisture damage during shipping. I scatter them around my storage drawers to keep the humidity low in the vicinity of any coins and banknotes.
Hint; write the date on them and, every now and then, toss away any older ones. If the grains feel soft then toss immediately -they have absorbed as much moisture as they can and will soon start dribbling water (definitely not good).
(http://mbapet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Silca-gel-packets.jpg)
Also found in shoe boxes sometimes, so if that isn't a good enough excuse to go shoe shopping ladies I don't know what is, but don't tell the other half I said so :blush2:
You might even be able to get some if you ask the sales person nicely :)
Quote from: 'NZCoinerrors' pid='76161' dateline='1437737402'Thanks Mister T. Do you seal them? I find that holds them firmer so they dont move around and the heat sealer only cost about $20
No I don't bother with that - they do move around but I figured I could fix it easier if they weren't heat-sealed.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='76279' dateline='1437813362'toss away any older ones.
Umm, no.
Silica Gel is an ADsorbent, not an ABsorbent, and is totally inert
(except the indicator in the colour-changing variety, which is toxic if ingested). The water is held on the surface of the pores... many square metres packed inside the structure of the beads.
They can be baked to remove the water, and are reusable indefinitely.
Also, they need to be inside sealed containers. They are useless for removing moisture from the vicinity of coins exposed to the atmosphere.
I would put the coins, containers or albums in closed bags or other airtight containers, and pack both silica gel and oxygen absorbers
(basically packets of rust, found in many foods such as wraps and jerky etc, as well as hand warmers) in with them.
Can't go wrong with any modern storage systems specifically for coins
OK, I stand corrected. I will try rejuvenating some old ones.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='76418' dateline='1437936287'OK, I stand corrected. I will try rejuvenating some old ones.
Just don't bake the coins with them :P
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='76418' dateline='1437936287'OK, I stand corrected. I will try rejuvenating some old ones.
http://qqjky.qjhbf.servertrust.com/v/vspfiles/info/Silica%20Gel.pdf
I have tried a very simplistic method -see the picture. After 8 hours sitting on a barely burning heater the weight of the sachets went from 85g to 79g. By my calculation I have removed a little over the equivalent of a teaspoon of water.
The base of the metal bowl was hot enough to touch but you could not keep your hand on it for more than a second, or so. Every now and then stirred the sachets around to give them all a go at the heat.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10055/silica_gel.JPG)
Why the need for silica gel for a coin collection properly stored ?
I don't get it ,realistically I EXPECT people here would know how to store a coin by now
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='77894' dateline='1439877573'I have tried a very simplistic method -see the picture. After 8 hours sitting on a barely burning heater the weight of the sachets went from 85g to 79g. By my calculation I have removed a little over the equivalent of a teaspoon of water.
At least its free. But it might take quite a while to finish the job. And don't forget they will re-adsorb any moisture in the air around them.
Friend of a friend gave me this to sell(or buy) on her behalf,luckily,for me, she had already opened the plastic/vinyl bag it had been stored in.What a shame & what a mess,people just put things away and forget about them,obviously its been near some damp conditions at some stage.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2933_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/66_resize_2932.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2935_resize.jpg)
wow sad that,
just send them to peter Wallace he will clean them up good for you :P
Was that a 1966 Proof Set? :cray: :cray:
I think it still might be Nancy -just a bit less 'proof like' than before!
I think that set "Drowned" at some stage :cray:
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='78000' dateline='1440135025'people just put things away and forget about them
My HSC Chemistry teacher always said:
"If you don't use it, you lose it"
Reckoned it applied to absolutely everything. The older I get, the more I agree with him.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='78009' dateline='1440144876'Was that a 1966 Proof Set? :cray: :cray:
Yep,still is,coins come up OK except for the 20c,it has what looks like a rust spot growing on it.
can or did you dip the coins in something like acetone to help get rid of the mould ?
Apparently the whole box had a thick mould growing on it,like on rotten fruit,when she took it out of the bag so the blue dye used in the covering must be organic.She cleaned most of it off before showing me to try and open it as the little catch was frozen,the box fell apart when i tried to open it.
All the coins except the 20c are reasonable,i wiped with acetone and dried them in the sun and put them in 2x2's.If someone has some further tips i'm happy to hear them.I think the 20c is gone,i'll post some Pics. this afternoon but it looks like something is eating into the metal itself like with copper coins.
I paid her $100 for them so she's happy and i'll get out of it with a new box and a replacement 20c.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='78172' dateline='1440375318'Apparently the whole box had a thick mould growing on it,like on rotten fruit,when she took it out of the bag so the blue dye used in the covering must be organic.She cleaned most of it off before showing me to try and open it as the little catch was frozen,the box fell apart when i tried to open it.
All the coins except the 20c are reasonable,i wiped with acetone and dried them in the sun and put them in 2x2's.If someone has some further tips i'm happy to hear them.I think the 20c is gone,i'll post some Pics. this afternoon but it looks like something is eating into the metal itself like with copper coins.
I paid her $100 for them so she's happy and i'll get out of it with a new box and a replacement 20c.
If you need a box for these I have a few lying about and I have NO problem parting with one to house a proof set .
PM Me :ok:
Thanks for the offer Trout,PM sent.
Still playing around with the Aldi Microscope,here are some shots of the 20c,its cactus i think.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Still0001.jpg)
img]http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Still0001.jpg[/img]
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Still0002.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Still0005.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Still0007.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Still0006.jpg)
Well you could list it as a rare variety on ebay, I mean how many 1966 20c have you seen growing a cactus? :P
Sad about the scratches too. Hope the rest aren't also scratched?
lemon and bi carb I think I head of before for making coins shine, I mean it wont help fix it, but might be interesting to see if it works
Lemon (juice) is acidic and bi-carb (soda) is alkaline. They have opposite effects and would cancel each other out.
They should fizz up very nicely if mixed together.
Quote from: 'Australian coin' pid='78199' dateline='1440406505'lemon and bi carb I think I head of before for making coins shine, I mean it wont help fix it, but might be interesting to see if it works
Hrm... I've heard quacks claiming this combo cures cancer, but haven't come across it in relation to coins before.
At any rate, in solution, the pH would be neutral, so any effect of the mild acetic acid would be countered. Can't see it doing anything at all.
And if used as a paste, it will scratch the coin, just like toothpaste.
I would think that to make this a "Pocket Piece" would be the best method to improve the "look" of this poor unfortunate coin.
At least then it could become an "Impaired Proof" instead of just a coin that has been environmentally destroyed :good:
I just bought one of these to house my growing Maundy set collection.
A bit "Over the Top" but far better than the Blue box setup I have at the moment :)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/131627365578?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Woohoo now that would have used anything left of ya voucher :blush: They are a really nice box as I've seen them before :winkextra:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='82596' dateline='1449884837'Woohoo now that would have used anything left of ya voucher :blush: They are a really nice box as I've seen them before :winkextra:
It will look even nicer chokka block full of Maundy sets :dance2::)
I have been using saflips exclusively for the past year or so as they are a great product and easy to use.
However as I couldn't be bothered to put a description on a piece of cardboard in the other side of the flip I have lost track of where I have put various coins and have great difficulty finding them again :dash1:
I have just ordered a heap of self adhesive 2x2's and I am going to go through everything that I have added to my various albums over the last year or so and put everything in them and write on them so I can see at a glance what they are when I open the album.
I will still continue to use saflips for bulk items eg coins from opened rolls etc. But for errors, varieties and the various mintmarks on the new additions that I add to my albums I will revert back to the paper 2x2's .
I know I can simply just put a description on a card and use saflips but as the majority of my coins in albums are in 2x2's I think will just keep them the same from now on.
Isn't the glue used with self-adhesive 2x2s problematic for long term storage? I bought myself a nice quality guillotine and some archival cardboard, in no time at all I can cut up 100s of inserts for the SAFLIPs.
Having said that I was surprised at how many 2x2s I still have, last time I checked my albums. Those SAFLIPs are pricey when you need to buy them a thousand at a time.
QuoteIsn't the glue used with self-adhesive 2x2s problematic for long term storage?
Not really as long as you store your albums flat.
A heat sealed saflip is a better option as far as long term storage goes But for me personally the 2x2's are easier to use and aesthetically more pleasing than a plain saflip in an album.
I have to admit, I like the way self-adhesive 2x2s look in my albums. Particularly if I concentrate really hard and write on them as neatly as I can.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='89581' dateline='1464503409'I have to admit, I like the way self-adhesive 2x2s look in my albums. Particularly if I concentrate really hard and write on them as neatly as I can.
Yep, they do look OK, and are more user friendly from the point of view of adding details on the outside. Having said that I've gotten rid of most of mine and will eventually have none. I once had a beautiful full red 1955Y. obverse 9 (mule) easily MS65, as I thought, safely housed away from the elements in one of these mongrel self adhesives until it decided to open up like a clam :diablo:, consequently toning part of each side. And the albums were always laid flat.
[/quote]
Yep, they do look OK, and are more user friendly from the point of view of adding details on the outside. Having said that I've gotten rid of most of mine and will eventually have none. I once had a beautiful full red 1955Y. obverse 9 (mule) easily MS65, as I thought, safely housed away from the elements in one of these mongrel self adhesives until it decided to open up like a clam :diablo:, consequently toning part of each side. And the albums were always laid flat.
[/quote]
Was that particular coin housed in a PVC album or pages ?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='89587' dateline='1464504714'Was that particular coin housed in a PVC album or pages ?
Thinking about now it certainly was. Can I just say, there were 200 coins in that folder and the 1955Y. mule was the only one to open up :dash1: Call it Murphy's law. Anyhow, they won't do it again!
Those PVC albums ruined many of my coins that I had in stapled 2x2's or even worse just sitting in the pockets but the self adhesive ones came out pretty much unscathed.
All of the old PVC albums got burnt in the incinerator when I changed over to the albums I got from PP a while back.
Even if I had the coins in unsealed saflips in those old albums I would hazard to guess that they would have suffered a similar fate as well.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89584' dateline='1464504473'mongrel self adhesives until it decided to open up like a clam
This is why you use staple 2x2's and iron them.
The plastic in the mount is BoPET (aka Mylar). The same stuff they use in Helium balloons (although metallised). So its pretty good at keeping most gasses in/out. If you weld the mount shut with a hot iron, you fuse it into a solid piece which cannot open up, so its far better than either stapled mounts or self-adhesive ones.
All plastics are permeable. And permeability works like this (EDIT: sorry, they don't allow hot-linking. :( :
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijps/2012/302029/fig1/
Without going into the rather complex mathematics (google it), here is a table of some of the more popular food packaging films:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijps/2012/302029/tab2/
Permeability has to do with a number of factors. The size of the gas molecule, the temperature, the type of material (basically the empty space between its molecules), the thickness of the barrier being key factors.
Have a look at the research paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1086595/ (3-page PDF at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1086595/pdf/plntphys00497-0030.pdf)
The only thing better than Mylar is PVC, and we all know about that, don't we? :(
So me, I would use welded 2x2's, and if I wanted an extra level of protection, I'd seal them into (sadly non-transparent) metallised Mylar bags. Which is what they make chip packets out of.. two layers of Mylar with a printed metal core. Or maybe in PolyPropylene pages in a PolyPropylene album, in a sealed bag (even an LDPE ziplock bag should do as this outer layer) if you want to maintain easy access.
How are you going with the dry nitrogen, sealed container idea?
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89595' dateline='1464509890'How are you going with the dry nitrogen, sealed container idea?
Pretty much stalled pending a source of the gas. Modifying a commercial oxygen generator would be a couple of grand. Buying bottles just strikes me as a pain in the bum. And my friendly tyre people are all retired so I can't ask them either. Given the reactions I had recently over a damaged tyre (long story) I don't hold much hope of getting any sense out of anyone by just walking in cold. :dodgy:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='89591' dateline='1464507099'This is why you use staple 2x2's and iron them.
To be clear, do you kind of iron them around the circular window, avoiding the coin itself?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='89605' dateline='1464543650'To be clear, do you kind of iron them around the circular window, avoiding the coin itself?
Obviously, yes. If you touch the window, you'll melt a hole in it. And you want a hot iron, some thick fabric underneath and a layer on top. Don't hold the iron in place for too long or the cardboard will yellow. I use a folded up sheet underneath and a coin sack on top.
The Mylar melts @ 260°C. You want something a bit hotter than that so you don't cook the cardboard. Keep the iron moving.
Practice on one that doesn't really matter too much, eh? :angel:
Yep will do, now I wish I didn't give all my spare 2x2s to AJ. I almost can't believe I'm thinking about going back to the 2x2s after replacing well over a thousand of them with SAFLIPs. All that ironing sounds like a bit of a chore.
I still have a mixture of adhesive and staple types. Maybe I need to get rid of the adhesive kind first. Then see if I can rehabilitate the ones that already have staples by ironing them shut and then removing the staples (not sure how that's gonna go). At least I will get to go through my albums once again.
Coin storage is an important part of collecting that most of us really don't pay as much attention to as we should.
Most of us are too busy trying to assemble our collections and not a great deal of thought goes into how we store our collections other than "Does it look nice" and "Is it Cheap".
I have used many systems to store my coins, from tobacco tins and ice cream containers when I first started to Velvet lined wooden slab boxes over the years.
The only thing that has remained constant is that I am always looking for better ways of storing my coins and trying new approaches and techniques.
I still have coins in Bags and ice cream containers and some still in Whitman/dansco folders that I haven't gotten around to doing anything with yet.
When I first decided to organise my collections and put them in albums I bought a few of the dansco push in folders that have the dates and mintmarks conveniently written under the holes the coins were to be placed and I thought that these would be the "Bees Knees" , Then I started to notice the coins were starting to tone and all of a sudden I noticed my fingerprints all over the coins from where I had pushed them in and touched them whilst looking at them :(.
This coupled with the problem of the coins falling out when I opened the albums and only being able to view one side of the coin made me rethink what I was doing .
I decided to get some nice soft cover albums That looked fantastic with pages that took 2x2 flips to put my coins in, These were PVC albums and I don't really have to explain what happened there :cray:
I have just recently moved all the coins ( The ones that survived) from the PVC albums into PVC Free archival quality albums that look great and the also come with a slip that holds it all together nicely.
I started off using self adhesive 2x2's for these albums then I discovered saflips which are probably a better option for ease of access and protection for the coin But I still prefer the way the paper flips look and the information I can write on them with ease.
I have also recently started to get some of my coins graded and slabbed in what are now water proof slabs.
This is by far the most expensive option and it takes up considerably more space to store the coins But it is by far the safest way to store the coins at the moment that I am aware of .
There is also the peace of mind that these slabbed coins are genuine as well.
For me coin storage and display are an on going thing and who knows what new concepts/techniques will be invented as the years go by and what I am using at the moment may become obsolete compared to the new ideas in the future.
I can't understand all the negativity and urban myths in Oz. that surround ahhesive 2x2's,they seal properly unlike stapled ones.I have ones that are 40+ years old and no way can you can pry them apart,you have to cut the coin out.I guess from time to time you can get a bad batch or a cheaper inferior product but i've never had a problem providing you buy German sourced ones and don't go larger than 32.5mm.
There is no law that states you can't put a staple in a adhesive 2x2,just to be sure i staple all those that are not stored in a 2x2 album page.My 2c.
I have always used Lighthouse Brand 2x2's and I also haven't had any problems with the coming apart or "outgassing" .
I can remember seeing an image of a coin in a self adhesive 2x2 that had sunk into the bottom of the flip But that was standing upright in a shop window subject to UV from the sun and this isn't the way I would choose to store my coins .
They do work out to be a more expensive option to staple 2x2's or saflips though, I think it is just a matter of getting what you pay for :ok:
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='89607' dateline='1464547054'Yep will do, now I wish I didn't give all my spare 2x2s to AJ. I almost can't believe I'm thinking about going back to the 2x2s after replacing well over a thousand of them with SAFLIPs. All that ironing sounds like a bit of a chore.
I still have a mixture of adhesive and staple types. Maybe I need to get rid of the adhesive kind first. Then see if I can rehabilitate the ones that already have staples by ironing them shut and then removing the staples (not sure how that's gonna go). At least I will get to go through my albums once again.
I can sell them back to you at a fair price :angel: nah I'm joking you can have them back if you want them :friends:
I am in no way saying that the self adhesive 2x2's are a BETTER way of storing a coin because they aren't, A heat sealed saflip offers a lot more protection than a 2x2 ever will .
It is just my personal choice to again use 2x2's because I can write on them, They don't spin around in the flip ( a personal pet hate) and they are aesthetically pleasing.
There is nothing wrong with saflips and I will continue to use them , Just not in my albums :ok:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='89591' dateline='1464507099'All plastics are permeable. And permeability works like this (EDIT: sorry, they don't allow hot-linking. :( :
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijps/2012/302029/tab2/
Permeability has to do with a number of factors. The size of the gas molecule, the temperature, the type of material (basically the empty space between its molecules), the thickness of the barrier being key factors.
Just trying to better understand what is what on the permeability table.
Are we saying PP film at 13.6 = polypropylene saflip, and Pet Film at 17.8 = Mylar?
If this is correct, and just for arguments sake, can we assume that a polypropylene saflip housed in a PVC environment is capable of passing more contaminant than a mylar 2X2 would if housed in the same environment?
QuoteIf this is correct, and just for arguments sake, can we assume that a polypropylene saflip housed in a PVC environment is capable of passing more contaminant than a mylar 2X2 would if housed in the same environment?
I would imagine that the difference in the thickness of the saflip material would offer more protection against PVC than the thin mylar film on the 2x2 despite being more porous.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='89626' dateline='1464573737'I would imagine that the difference in the thickness of the saflip material would offer more protection against PVC than the thin mylar film on the 2x2 despite being more porous.
I would like to think you're right on this. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter as I've converted to saflips and quite happy with that :)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89625' dateline='1464573466'Are we saying PP film at 13.6 = polypropylene saflip, and Pet Film at 17.8 = Mylar?
Yes.
QuoteIf this is correct, and just for arguments sake, can we assume that a polypropylene saflip housed in a PVC environment is capable of passing more contaminant than a mylar 2X2 would if housed in the same environment?
I do hope this is a rhetorical question. :)
The ability of molecules to pass through a solid depends on the space between the solid's molecules. So while material A may have a finer structure, material B which has a looser structure may be much thicker, slowing down the passage. I would think A would have the advantage for large molecules which could not pass through at all. With B, its just a matter of time.
Consider a Helium-filled metallised Mylar balloon. It holds the gas in very well. Much better than any other material. But over a couple of days, the Helium will leak out. That can't be stopped. However once it reaches atmospheric pressure, the contents of the balloon will still be Helium, because the larger molecules in the air won't pass into the balloon. Make sense?
And the helium in the balloon would have a tiny amount of hydrogen, the smallest molecule of all, which is only present in the atmosphere as a 'trace'.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89646' dateline='1464594753'And the helium in the balloon would have a tiny amount of hydrogen, the smallest molecule of all, which is only present in the atmosphere as a 'trace'.
True.
Thanks for that. Sounds like no matter what we're using as storage, the better the general environment, the more long term the protection. Also thinking dry climate verses humid climate may be other factors, and I've often wondered about the flukyness of how and where some coins have been stored over the years, especially when say a 1911 penny that is housed in a stapled 2X2 has actually retained a full red condition.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89662' dateline='1464616343'the better the general environment, the more long term the protection.
Quite. Environment is massively important. If there are no nasties present, even an unprotected coin can survive well. Whereas its really hard to keep corrosive fumes out of anything.
So a dry, smoke-free, PVC-free environment is a basic starting point. And maybe these glass puppies are the ultimate? :angel:
(http://www.vacuum-degassing.com/uploads/1/1/5/9/11596296/6690291_orig.jpg)
Exterrrrrrrminate ..... exterrrrrrrrrminate ...... :mocking:
Interesting. So if a Warren Buffet type was into coin collecting and had their iconic world rarities housed in something like this, with the rottweiler compound controlled by a vacuum switch, all should be good. :)
These guys can probably help you McDuck ....
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/beaker.jpg)
I recently bought a vacuume sealer that I use to pack meat and cheese to take away with us when we do our "Grey haired Nomad" thing because it takes up less space and I can just store the meat in a fridge for a week or so without it spoiling and it saves some space in the freezer for extra icy poles :).
I have also used it to store some Coin rolls and baggies only time will tell if this is effective, But it does stop the coins in the baggies from rubbing and bagging because when sealed this way they are held firmly in place and cannot move when handled :good:
Anything that will help prevent contamination from moisture, air or impact is a good thing, Finding the most cost effective, easiest and aesthetic way of doing this is where it gets interesting :)
Trout,
So long as the material used for the vacuum sealing is an appropriate material for long term storage of metals (such as copper, nickel and silver).
A quote from Wikipaedia:
"The amount of shelf life enhanced by a vacuum bag is dependent on the structure in the material. A standard vacuum bag is composed of a PA/PE structure where PA is for puncture resistance and PE is for sealing. The high barrier category includes the usage of more layers focused on the prevention of oxygen permeability, and therefore shelf life protection. There are two materials used in high barrier structures, polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC) and ethylene vinyl alcohol (EVOH). Shelf life indication can be effectively measured by how many cubic centimeters of oxygen can permeate through 1 square meter of material over a 24-hour period. A standard PA/PE bag allows on average 100 cubic centimeters, PVDC allows on average over 10, and EVOH on average 1 cubic centimeter. Multi-layer structures allow the ability to use strong oxygen-barrier materials for enhanced shelf life protection. The PremiumPack structure is a good example of EVOH based high barrier shrink material."
Notice that the material suggested is of the PVC VARIETY - internal moisture can still leach out the chemicals from the plastic over the long term.
On the other hand the mylar types of bags used for potato chips and kids party balloons are excellent for vacuum sealing as they do not leach out chemicals nearly as much.
Definitely worth checking what material you are using for sealing.
Cheers
Peter (notcb)
Does anyone know about the VST coin album pages? That is what my grandfather was using when he passed on his collection, and I expanded it in the same way. I couldn't find anything online, but I have a suspicion they have PVC from the smell... am I correct?
I think your suspicion can be considered a fact.
OOP's
Trout,
There is a test you can make to determine whether the vacuum seal film that you use is PVC or not - that is, contains chlorine.
It is called the Beilstein Test which tests for halides. (including chlorine).
I have used the test on quite a few plastic ring folders which claimed to be PVC free.
*************
There is also a rough burn test which can differentiate between PVC and Polyethylene materials - they burn differently.
Cheers
Peter (notcb)
I have removed everything from the bags, Not worth the risk :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='89743' dateline='1464773679'I have removed everything from the bags, Not worth the risk
Probably a good call. Remember that food has different challenges than coins, and materials which work well for one may not be a good idea for the other. PVC being a case in point.
Of course, you can use any material in a sealer, but the bags intended for vacuum sealers have a ribbed structure to facilitate the flow of air out of the bag before sealing. You could try flat materials and see just how much air is removed.. Why not seal a sponge in a chip packet, and see just how flat it gets, and how long it stays that way? As I've said before, chip packets are opaque, but who cares for long term archival storage of bulk coins, right?
BTW, here's the Beilstein test: https://allaboutimages.wordpress.com/2014/06/09/how-to-identify-pvc/
(https://allaboutimages.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/beilstein-13.jpg)
Do NOT try this with rubber materials. Neoprene will give off toxic fumes.
PVC gives of some fairly nasty fumes. Back in the day I worked for a County Council and line staff saved all offcuts of copper cable until near the end of the year. Any with insulation were loaded into 44 gallon drums and fired to remove the insulation. You could not go near them -goodness knows what the neighbours thought as the works depot was adjacent a residential area.
Upside (yes there was one) was the sale of the copper for scrap value bought them the best Christmas party in town.
Don't try that exercise now -you would be in deep doo doo.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89771' dateline='1464807392'Don't try that exercise now -you would be in deep doo doo.
Heh, tell me about it. When they tore down the old Motor Reg at the Exhibition Buildings in Carlton, a mate and I went in and tore all the lead flashing off the roof. We couldn't move the bags, so just dropped them over the side when dad came round in the car to take them to the scrap metal yard for us. Poor old VC Valiant (well, new back then...) had its nose in the air and the tailpipe scraping the ground. We did well out of it too... at 10¢/lb I think it was, we both lived like schoolboy kings for ages! :angel:
Nowadays, the first thing they do is put a big fence all around, and if you tried it, they'd lock you up and throw away the key.
I don't really think times have improved. We let the mongrel bureaucrats out of their box and they refuse to go back in. :(
Sounds like Bigfellani5 and trout you guys have good results with Lighthouse albums. For raw coins I have an album from PP.
But I also have a modest collection of banknotes that I want to organise better. None of them are really worth a lot. Each one $20-40 tops. Looks like the albums are just fancy ring binders for their pages. Are they worth it? Should I get their pages and just a cheap ring binder from Woolies?
Thoughts anyone?
Binders like this are available in 2, 3 or 4 ring and various thicknesses and colours. Polypropylene so they don't give off potentially harmful fumes.
J.Burrows Insert Binder A4 4 D-Ring 25mm White (http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/j-burrows-insert-binder-a4-4-d-ring-25mm-white-jbib442we)
Plenty of places sell those. Quite reasonable price if you shop around.
The vinyl (basically same as PVC) covered cardboard type are probably best avoided.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89811' dateline='1464895262'Plenty of places sell those. Quite reasonable price if you shop around.
Indeed. I've seen them as cheap as $1. Or free if you happen across some promotional ones. ;)
And yes, avoid the PVC ones.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='89805' dateline='1464868261'Sounds like Bigfellani5 and trout you guys have good results with Lighthouse albums. For raw coins I have an album from PP.
But I also have a modest collection of banknotes that I want to organise better. None of them are really worth a lot. Each one $20-40 tops. Looks like the albums are just fancy ring binders for their pages. Are they worth it? Should I get their pages and just a cheap ring binder from Woolies?
Thoughts anyone?
I don't have any lighthouse albums, all of my binders and pages are from PP :ok:
I do use the lighthouse 2x2's though.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89811' dateline='1464895262'Binders like this are available in 2, 3 or 4 ring and various thicknesses and colours. Polypropylene so they don't give off potentially harmful fumes.
J.Burrows Insert Binder A4 4 D-Ring 25mm White (http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/j-burrows-insert-binder-a4-4-d-ring-25mm-white-jbib442we)
Plenty of places sell those. Quite reasonable price if you shop around.
The vinyl (basically same as PVC) covered cardboard type are probably best avoided.
There's this type as well, also from Office Works, 25mm Spine, but not available online.
https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/x-binder-a4-4-d-ring-frosted-x16p400350
Thanks for all your helpful suggestions. :good:
I think I'll get some proper banknote protective sheets and one of these polypropylene folders.
Archival Comic Book sheets(Ebay or Dealer) are good for notes,fold over and seal with tape and place in binder sleeve.Of course you can buy individual hard perspex/plastic type holders for notes but like slabs they take up a lot of space and are expensive.
Those would be more expensive than some of my notes. Some of mine are worth as little as $3.
I was going to get a bunch of these with a polypropylene binder.
https://www.lighthouse.us/epages/lighthouse.sf/en_us/?ObjectPath=/Shops/leuchtturm_us/Products/VARIO3C
One day I will move into the big leagues!
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='89780' dateline='1464827964'Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89771' dateline='1464807392'Don't try that exercise now -you would be in deep doo doo.
Nowadays, the first thing they do is put a big fence all around, and if you tried it, they'd lock you up and throw away the key.
I don't really think times have improved. We let the mongrel bureaucrats out of their box and they refuse to go back in. :(
stopped people getting killed actually
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='89867' dateline='1464938510'stopped people getting killed actually
Which is what the nanny state tells you, yes. But not being dead is not the same as living. By taking all the flavour out of life, they provide a bland existence in comparison to bygone times. Which I, for one, sorely miss.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='89882' dateline='1464959746'By taking all the flavour out of life
From where I sit flavour equals experience, and experience keeps us safe. For me it's so frustrating how current industry thinking on the issue of training, particularly in the blue collar area, is so short circuited these days compared to the past. There's almost an arrogant notion that people can be taken off the street and trained up by an on the job trainer who mightn't necessarily have expertise in that particular field, and then deemed to be competent in super quick time because all boxes were ticked and the paperwork looked mickey mouse. At this point they're sent out into the workplace with some fanciful expectation they will perform as well as someone who in the past may have had to complete a specified training program over many years like an apprenticeship, or held down a job where they would gain the necessary skills and experience through a specific line of progression. I realise experience doesn't equal perfection, but there's also no doubt that less experienced or poorly trained employees will be responsible for most of the stuff ups, at least where I worked that was the case.
IMHO the consequences of this manner of operating is not only the endangerment of all employees, but is now putting pressure on jobs as well as increased cost of living as companies deal with and pass on added costs of over the top nanny state type industrial safety legislation that was enacted four or five years ago due to glaringly unacceptable workplace death and injury data. It's like a double whammy of stupidity :dash1:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89885' dateline='1464968281'...over the top nanny state type industrial safety legislation
Its not just industrial safety either. Its everywhere. Road laws. Anything to do with children. Privacy. Any type of machinery, from drones and skateboards to robots. And so on and so forth.
Heck, remember the reaction when some idiot jumped off a cliff and sued the council for not stopping him?
The problem is, the more you dumb things down, the dumber everything and everyone gets. We got to where we are over millennia by taking risks which eliminated the stupid and strengthened the talented. And now we're actively working to reverse all of that as fast as possible.
This will not end well. :(
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='89882' dateline='1464959746'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='89867' dateline='1464938510'stopped people getting killed actually
Which is what the nanny state tells you, yes. But not being dead is not the same as living. By taking all the flavour out of life, they provide a bland existence in comparison to bygone times. Which I, for one, sorely miss.
no the nanny state doesn't tell me that
I have provided counsel (when doing coronial work) to the families of young men who have died accidently after wandering into work sites, pissed and fall & NOT suicides
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='89895' dateline='1464999354'wandering into work sites, pissed
Which is different from getting pissed and wandering onto a freeway or off a cliff or into a river or a thousand other dangerous places
how, exactly?
The answer is for people to act responsibly, and not get pissed in the first place. Not for more and more legislation and bureaucracy which impacts everyone to try and save the very few from their own stupidity.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89885' dateline='1464968281'enacted four or five years ago due to glaringly unacceptable workplace death and injury data. It's like a double whammy of stupidity :dash1:
I haven't worked for over ten years and this nanny thing was coming in long before then, it started around 98 and by 2000 it was in full swing as I was at the hospital then and we had to put signs and painted lines everywhere to tell people to watch their step etc so to me it's like they're trying to make people have common sense but it will never work as most people walk around in a daze and getting worse with all the hand held rubbish they're talking or looking at when they should be looking at what they're doing :dodgy:
It won't matter how much the authorities try to protect people from their own stupidity; some will always find a way to enter the Darwin Awards (http://www.darwinawards.com).
"The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..."
Yes very true Jeff.
true Fulvio
but having responsibility to the public is quite fair IMO
people always do stupid things and get say, pissed and wander someone off the road, or on it, off the cliff ,out the window on floor 7
within reason - it's no reason to have to die from being as normal as the bloke standing next to you
everyone makes mistakes and sadly, some make the final mistake only the once
my point was around work sites
if work sites in city areas near pubs, have fences then the inebriated patrons they can't innocently wander into the areas
or little kids scampering away from the watchful eyes of mums and dads
makes solid sense to me
sure we can do ' the don't get pissed, don't get pregnant' etc etc and all the other moral tut tuts but people are people and there's nothing wrong with trying to keep some extras alive with some common sense practices
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='89934' dateline='1465041170'there's nothing wrong with trying to keep some extras alive with some common sense practices
Yeaaaah.. well... as a firm believer in the underlying concept of the Darwin Awards, I'm not sure I'd necessarily go along with that.
Honestly, there are people who are nothing but waste-of-space oxygen thieves and a little natural selection can be a good thing in their cases. :diablo:
I'd like to know when pubs and clubs are actually going to implement the responsible service of alcohol laws that they bought in quite a few years ago now instead of the all mighty dollar ruling all, they need to be help accountable as much if not more than the pissed one's. Everyone working behind a bar is meant to have done a responsible service of alcohol course but NO ONE practices it and you really notice it in country towns like here and especially next month for the big july racing carnival. Yes I know some people will find a way around the law and still get grog but the bar people should be a bit stricter but then when you see them serving under age drinkers that are pissed as and the coppers also walk straight by who cares.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='89919' dateline='1465024004'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89885' dateline='1464968281'enacted four or five years ago due to glaringly unacceptable workplace death and injury data. It's like a double whammy of stupidity :dash1:
I haven't worked for over ten years and this nanny thing was coming in long before then, it started around 98
So true AJ, amazing how time fly's while trying to figure out how best to arrive at appropriate protection for our coins Mate :blush::mocking:
The legislation I was referring to came into being more like around 2008-09, and incidentally, in the case of any breach of safety, penalties placed at the feet of managers at all levels are such that it appears as if this alone then becomes the main driver of safety culture.
I myself have chosen to leave it to em, and in the absence of quarantining my coins in one of Fulvio's glass vacuum spheres, I've chosen to stick with what I know and place my utmost trust in saflips. :biggrin:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='89943' dateline='1465044207'I'd like to know when pubs and clubs are actually going to implement the responsible service of alcohol laws that they bought in quite a few years ago now instead of the all mighty dollar ruling all, they need to be help accountable as much if not more than the pissed one's. Everyone working behind a bar is meant to have done a responsible service of alcohol course but NO ONE practices it and you really notice it in country towns like here and especially next month for the big july racing carnival. Yes I know some people will find a way around the law and still get grog but the bar people should be a bit stricter but then when you see them serving under age drinkers that are pissed as and the coppers also walk straight by who cares.
At the club (RSL) I work at we regularly cut people off, it doesn't matter who they are (I've cut off senior managers of the club when they have had too many after work drinks), so saying NO ONE practices it is a stretch. We know most of our regulars and who drinks to excess etc so we put them on water or arrange the courtesy bus etc when they get too bad. As for under age drinkers... not a chance as anybody who looks under 25 is age verified and if they forgot their ID we either don't admit them or make them remain in limited areas of the club and can drink soft drinks. Anybody who supplies a person who is cut off or possibly under age is also directed to leave the premises.
BTW right now I'm on duty and am about to do another RSA patrol to check for anybody who might have had one too many.
Just did my patrol, nobody is drunk.
As for my main job (security on a big construction site), even fencing hardly discourages the idiots who want to climb 40-60 stories to the top of cranes to take selfies or base jump, some even regard the fence as a challenge and we regularly deal with drunken youth who are dared by their mates to climb over.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89949' dateline='1465046956'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='89919' dateline='1465024004'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89885' dateline='1464968281'enacted four or five years ago due to glaringly unacceptable workplace death and injury data. It's like a double whammy of stupidity :dash1:
I haven't worked for over ten years and this nanny thing was coming in long before then, it started around 98
So true AJ, amazing how time fly's while trying to figure out how best to arrive at appropriate protection for our coins Mate :blush::mocking:
The legislation I was referring to came into being more like around 2008-09, and incidentally, in the case of any breach of safety, penalties placed at the feet of managers at all levels are such that it appears as if this alone then becomes the main driver of safety culture.
I myself have chosen to leave it to em, and in the absence of quarantining my coins in one of Fulvio's glass vacuum spheres, I've chosen to stick with what I know and place my utmost trust in saflips. :biggrin:
Yes I have heard that they've trying to put the responsibility onto manages but for all sorts of things and some yes they should be responsible but a lot should be the people and especially if they're doing the wrong thing.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='89952' dateline='1465054000'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='89943' dateline='1465044207'I'd like to know when pubs and clubs are actually going to implement the responsible service of alcohol laws that they bought in quite a few years ago now instead of the all mighty dollar ruling all, they need to be help accountable as much if not more than the pissed one's. Everyone working behind a bar is meant to have done a responsible service of alcohol course but NO ONE practices it and you really notice it in country towns like here and especially next month for the big july racing carnival. Yes I know some people will find a way around the law and still get grog but the bar people should be a bit stricter but then when you see them serving under age drinkers that are pissed as and the coppers also walk straight by who cares.
At the club (RSL) I work at we regularly cut people off, it doesn't matter who they are (I've cut off senior managers of the club when they have had too many after work drinks), so saying NO ONE practices it is a stretch. We know most of our regulars and who drinks to excess etc so we put them on water or arrange the courtesy bus etc when they get too bad. As for under age drinkers... not a chance as anybody who looks under 25 is age verified and if they forgot their ID we either don't admit them or make them remain in limited areas of the club and can drink soft drinks. Anybody who supplies a person who is cut off or possibly under age is also directed to leave the premises.
BTW right now I'm on duty and am about to do another RSA patrol to check for anybody who might have had one too many.
Just did my patrol, nobody is drunk.
As for my main job (security on a big construction site), even fencing hardly discourages the idiots who want to climb 40-60 stories to the top of cranes to take selfies or base jump, some even regard the fence as a challenge and we regularly deal with drunken youth who are dared by their mates to climb over.
Ok well most pubs and clubs or is it just the north coast that this happens but then when you see them on the news in sydney, brissie, melboure etc running wild at different places like the cross and sporting events like melbourne cup etc and people dying from one punch (old king hit) it makes one wonder what the hell is going on, I know a lot get a skin full before they go out or the wicked drugs they take today but even here we have the lock out laws that don't seem to work, well not here anyway.
yeah
I agree with your comments nealeffendi - my son did security for a few years and was always frustrated with other security guys not enforcing the drunk rules etc
I guess I have worked with for example, a family of a young fella and he and his mate just lobbed into a worksite (pissed of course) but near the pub they'd been drinking at
they just sought a spot to crash and did
during the night one young bloke gets up to have a piddle and falls straight off the floor's edge to his death
simple accident but cost him his life
no one was scaling high fences or the like - just seeking shelter on a cold night and probably didn't have the cab fare or too boozed to wait 2 hours for a cab in the city
since that accident they have been made to fence off work sites
if someone does all that other stuff like scaling walls etc, well they knowingly take the risk and yes they get killed (not unlike our recent swimming with crocodiles lady in the Daintree)
I am just for minimising risks and yup they might be dumb but it's no different to people here talking about how they teach other or new collectors on their 'hows' of either not being ripped off or how they have been ripped off , with their coin buying behaviours - it's a form of altruism which I believe is a reasonable human quality not to be scoffed at
anyways good on you for doing that security work
it is a tough gig with few thanks and yep -guys like you take care of people doing idiot things all the time - and you make sure they do make it home to their families (although I am sure there is the odd one where the families secretly wish they won't make it home!!) - God bless you mate
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89949' dateline='1465046956'penalties placed at the feet of managers at all levels are such that it appears as if this alone then becomes the main driver of safety culture.
Ah, and now we come to the real crux of the nanny state problem.
Everything is about blaming someone, and penalising them. There HAS to be a scapegoat in every situation. That's how we end up with Duncan Storrar being pilloried just for asking a simple question on Q&A. And its how we get this current spate of dob-in-a-potential-terrorist ads during an election campaign.
If our legislators REALLY cared, they would pass laws that actually achieved desirable outcomes. Got a problem with pisspots bashing people? Simple fix is to instal those breathalysers that you just breathe at, not into. Fail the test, you don't get served. But no, instead they fine management after the fact. Which is about as useless as speed cameras, where you get a fine long after you've forgotten even being out that day, let alone where it was supposed to have happened.
At the end of the day, the nanny state is all about the usual two things. Power and money. If you can take away people's independence and instil fear, you've got them by the goolies and can get away with anything, including their hard-earned. :(
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='89963' dateline='1465084568'no one was scaling high fences or the like - just seeking shelter on a cold night and probably didn't have the cab fare or too boozed to wait 2 hours for a cab in the city
since that accident they have been made to fence off work sites.
Its the same in Sydney,apparently the Buses and Trains don't start until 5am so they have 2-4 hours to wait if they can't afford a Cab.,so looking for somewhere safe to crash.