Sorry if this has been discussed before...
How do you guys store your RAM coins with packaging? Like the ones that come in a cardboard strip, or sealed inside a card.
I have been heat sealing them in polypropylene bags like this to minimize contact with air. Now I have lots of these loose bags all over the place.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/kchan1111/20160815_222311_zpsxfi5mzpy.jpg)
I am thinking of getting these binder sheet protectors and put them into a 4 ring binder. Both of these looks like PVC free and made out of polypropylene.
http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/j-burrows-insert-binder-a4-4-d-ring-38mm-blue-jbib443be
http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/keji-sheet-protector-a4-light-weight-100-pack-kesp100bx
You think this is OK? How do you keep your RAM packaged babies safe?
Would love to hear your tips.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='94674' dateline='1471265519'I have been heat sealing them in polypropylene bags
Are you SURE those bags are PP? Cos they're more likely LDPE. Which, as we've discussed several times, is not impermeable to gasses or moisture. Neither is PP, but it is better by a significant margin.
Yes, the PP binders are fine. PVC probably is too, given that its not in contact with the coins, but if you're buying, definitely go for the PP ones.
If you want ultimate protection from a plastic, then metallised mylar is the way to go. Like they use in helium balloons.. and chip packets. Sadly, its not transparent, but for bulk storage that may not matter. I would use the stuff as an outer layer, with bagged goodies inside. Oh, and vacuum seal if you can.
There are several threads on this subject, BTW.
Most of my RAM packaging ends up in the bin or in big cardboard boxes , especially those open ended cards the mint your own and other 25mm dollars are sold in :)
I put the coins themselves in either heat sealed saflips or self adhesive 2x2's as these offer far more protection to the coin than the somewhat flimsy or in many cases PVC packaging that is supplied with the coins. :ok:
Thanks Fulvio. I *think* it's polypropylene. The item description was polypropylene and I asked the seller before getting them. They are these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/138-x-190mm-100-qty-Clear-Cello-Cellophane-Reseal-Resealable-Plastic-Bags-/221698250586
Yes I've read the threads on storage, including discussion on mylar. But as you said... it's not transparent. I like some method that can keep them safe, organised and allow me to look at them. As these are RAM "standard" NCLT packaging I thought there are may be solutions specifically created for them rather than my DIY.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='94680' dateline='1471267187'Most of my RAM packaging ends up in the bin or in big cardboard boxes , especially those open ended cards the mint your own and other 25mm dollars are sold in :)
I put the coins themselves in either heat sealed saflips or self adhesive 2x2's as these offer far more protection to the coin than the somewhat flimsy or in many cases PVC packaging that is supplied with the coins. :ok:
The raw coins I have them in heat sealed saflips. But the RAM packaged ones I am keeping them in those. :P I like the packaging.
i like the look of those bags over the folders and then sealed
1. you must buy bigger bags
2. you must have a fairly big heat sealer
I put mine into the same burrows folders but I bought clear pages from online coins
bit exy but my decimal stuff remains pristine
I put my MYO etc in the 3 0r 4 to a page
then I get the big page for my stamps booklets etc
i pop most into a clear PP bag first as well
sometimes I think my storage costs as much as the coins!
http://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/collections/other-banknote-albums-pages/products/lighthouse-folio-3c-clear-album-pages-packet-of-5
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='94681' dateline='1471267475'The item description was polypropylene
Its a bit odd how they call it both Cellophane and Polypropylene. Completely different materials of course. Cellophane is very biodegradable, which would not be a good thing.
There are tests you can do of course, but they're destructive. :(
I'd be a bit wary of those binders, board covered with polypropylene.
Would the board not contain glue which may give off fumes?
Gosh Nevol
what can we do then?
I chucked out hundreds of $$ worth of Numis albums a couple of years ago because the advice that got here was that they were no good
the coins in them had held up quite OK for many years in them as well
http://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/collections/numis-album-system/products/lighthouse-numis-coin-album-blue-including-5-pages-for-143-coins
now I get those Burrows ones - which I might add break after a while so I do a lot of replacing
honestly my ols coins aren't all that valuable so the storage fussiness gets a bit arbitrary really
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='94684' dateline='1471269028'Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='94681' dateline='1471267475'The item description was polypropylene
Its a bit odd how they call it both Cellophane and Polypropylene. Completely different materials of course. Cellophane is very biodegradable, which would not be a good thing.
There are tests you can do of course, but they're destructive. :(
Yes that's why I contacted the seller for information. Their reply below:
QuoteThanks for your question. The material is polypropylene.
The only reason we use cello and cellophane in the title is because that's the term most people search for when trying to find these bags. If we omitted cello and cellophane from the title we'd hardly get any search term hits.
But it's as per the item description which is 100% polypropylene. We prefer this over cellophane because cello deteriorates with age and yellows. Our material will remain crystal clear and not deteriorate.
What is the destructive test? I have a whole packet so destroying one is not the end of the world.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='94696' dateline='1471301689'What is the destructive test? I have a whole packet so destroying one is not the end of the world.
Basically its burning the plastic and seeing what the spectrum it gives off is.
But if that's what they said, I think you can believe them. It actually makes sense, since to the average person, ALL plastic film is 'cellophane' since that's the stuff they played with in school, right? ;)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='94707' dateline='1471313772'Basically its burning the plastic and seeing what the spectrum it gives off is.
Geez if we'd known that we could have put all those candles on your birthday cake to use!!! (Probably would have had to call the Fire Brigade).
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='94683' dateline='1471267702'i like the look of those bags over the folders and then sealed
1. you must buy bigger bags
2. you must have a fairly big heat sealer
http://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/collections/other-banknote-albums-pages/products/lighthouse-folio-3c-clear-album-pages-packet-of-5
The size of those bags fits all the RAM packaging sizes. My heat sealer is long enough to seal an A4 size lengthwise.
The lighthouse pages are pricey. I have those for my hyperinflation banknotes. Not for my RAM coins. I though perhaps those PP heat sealed bags in PP binder + PP sheet protector inserts would be good enough.
Can you heat seal the lighthouse pages? Looks awkward to do so.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='94688' dateline='1471295498'I'd be a bit wary of those binders, board covered with polypropylene.
Would the board not contain glue which may give off fumes?
That's the whole idea of heat sealing to minimize contact with air. It's not perfect but there are so many things in the average household that are PVC so some level of fumes is unavoidable. No?
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='94707' dateline='1471313772'Basically its burning the plastic and seeing what the spectrum it gives off is.
But if that's what they said, I think you can believe them. It actually makes sense, since to the average person, ALL plastic film is 'cellophane' since that's the stuff they played with in school, right? ;)
What colour should I observe if I burn one?
If cellophane goes yellowish I haven't seen any of mine done that yet.
i've used the PP = cellophane bags for years
they remain clear and complete
no disintegration to date
i started to store my excess coins in those bags rather than the albums
awkward but it works
at least with the album i could see each coin
i also now have hundreds of the clear flips and hundreds of pages - progressively putting coins into flips
just did a few hundred today
now i have to go to officeworks and get some more albums
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='94710' dateline='1471317506'Geez if we'd known that we could have put all those candles on your birthday cake to use!!! (Probably would have had to call the Fire Brigade).
You'll keep. gettin' to be as bad as AJ. :P
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='94715' dateline='1471321689'What colour should I observe if I burn one?
I remember posting a colour chart some time ago, but of course I can't find it now. :(
Still, I just found THIS, which may actually be better:
(http://www.stanmech.com/uploads/2/1/0/9/21099874/797665_orig.png)
That is wonderful -best I have ever seen for the burn test.
I don't see the first ever mass produced plastic; Bakelite. Or is it hiding under some acronym?
Now, does anyone have something similar for what adhesives are compatible with various plastics.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='94742' dateline='1471340410'Or is it hiding under some acronym?
Its on the right side, under Self-Extinguishing Thermosetting.
Bakelite is a phenol formaldehyde.
Great chart thank you! I will unleash my inner pyromaniac on the weekend.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='94752' dateline='1471351862'I will unleash my inner pyromaniac on the weekend.
Oh dear.
As long as you don't give my name to the arson investigators, ok? :angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='94739' dateline='1471339424'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='94710' dateline='1471317506'Geez if we'd known that we could have put all those candles on your birthday cake to use!!! (Probably would have had to call the Fire Brigade).
You'll keep. gettin' to be as bad as AJ. :P
:scratch_one-s_head: but Fulvio you know
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2ufecyb.jpg)
:angel:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='94770' dateline='1471390697'(http://i63.tinypic.com/2ufecyb.jpg)
I never realised he worked for Woolies. It all makes sense now! :dodgy:
:laugh2: rimmer is cool :winkextra:
Just a quick note, because I'm totally knackered after a stressful day's hunt.
I stopped in at a plastics manufacturer and got the tour of the place and samples of a variety of bags. IMO, 40-50 micron BOPP sheet might be the go. Cost per bag comes in around the 5¢ mark, vs 1¢ for the 25 micron PP tube. The other available options aren't really worth pursuing for coins, IMO, but might be worth some research. Something tells me that coated cellophane is asking for trouble, but he assures me its stable and safe. Meh.
More when I'm awake. ;)
And yeah, AJ. He is. <3
This probably isn't in the correct section but I don't usually post so hoping its ok this once. I have been entering my coins onto a new database after moving back to Australia from New Zealand and have just pulled up a pkt of Silver round 50cent pieces..... They appear to be green (can't remember the term for it) They have always been stored in safes but we've been back here a little over six months and am wondering if its from the humidity while they were in storage for two months.
It's good you're posting :good:
Verdigris or "the green death" can be caused by many things and oil from our skin is one and poor storage doesn't help.
We normally don't advise to clean coins but if it's to preserve the coin for your collection there are things you can try depending on what's on the coin, acetone if it's PVC damage, glue or things like that or a good soak in olive oil or a WD/CRC type spray for other things like verdigris.
I just did a search using "cleaning coins" and this is what shows up so there's a few threads to look at.
https://www.australian-coins.net/search.php?action=results&sid=5cd16a1ec323e6238bfe61fe996e04b0&sortby=lastpost&order=desc
Make sure you give them a good wash in warm soapy water afterwards and don't rub the coins or you'll leave minute scratches and people will be able to tell the coins have been cleaned and this will devalue them as most cleaning of coins does.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='97239' dateline='1473232520'It's good you're posting :good:
Verdigris or "the green death" can be caused by many things and oil from our skin is one and poor storage doesn't help.
We normally don't advise to clean coins but if it's to preserve the coin for your collection there are things you can try depending on what's on the coin, acetone if it's PVC damage, glue or things like that or a good soak in olive oil or a WD/CRC type spray for other things like verdigris.
I just did a search using "cleaning coins" and this is what shows up so there's a few threads to look at.
https://www.australian-coins.net/search.php?action=results&sid=5cd16a1ec323e6238bfe61fe996e04b0&sortby=lastpost&order=desc
Make sure you give them a good wash in warm soapy water afterwards and don't rub the coins or you'll leave minute scratches and people will be able to tell the coins have been cleaned and this will devalue them as most cleaning of coins does.
Thanks ausjack, they're currently in plastic coin sleeves and are sealed with tape. I'll remove them and get onto following your instructions.
hi Mini
if a bag doesn't have breather holes the coins are more likely to accumulate moisture and this can then develop corrosion at a faster rate than say, if they are in clothe bags
i use cellophane bags now and have very few problems with long term storage
i get them from ebay
Quote from: 'MinnieAb56' pid='97235' dateline='1473231143'humidity while they were in storage for two months.
Two months seems a bit short.
To bring it back on-topic, I'm guessing they were in PVC containers of some description. A lot of bags, pages, etc from that era were PVC, and it will definitely destroy your coins as described, especially in the presence of moisture.
PVC is a hard white plastic, as used in pipes. To make it soft and clear, they add plasticisers. These leach from the plastic, and combine with air and the water it contains to make an acid paste which eats the surface of whatever was stored in the container.
It cannot be reversed. The best you can hope for is to remove the surface contamination and the sticky residue, and to slow down or stop further degradation. But underneath, the surface will be pitted and permanently damaged.
Additionally, whatever you do to try and remove the gunk can make things worse. There are three basic things you can use:
* Acetone
* WD40/RP7
* Olive oil
Whether they will help will depend on the severity of the affliction. You may alternate them, perhaps repeatedly, but don't leave the coins submerged for months, and don't put multiple coins in the bath together, as they could react with each other and make things worse.
As AJ said, don't rub. You may use a toothpick to pick away encrustations, but be very gentle and stay away from unaffected parts of the coin.
Regardless, when finished, a good rinse, in warm soapy water and perhaps distilled water, dry thoroughly, and seal in Polypropylene (PP or BoPP) or Mylar (BoPET). One is better than the other at keeping Oxygen out, and the other at keeping Water out, and both are safe.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='97244' dateline='1473233879'i use cellophane bags
I wouldn't. Cellophane is a biodegradable organic plastic made from cellulose using some nasty chemicals, and is used for products that need to 'breathe' for a reason. ;)
Always be 100% sure of what you're buying/using, especially on ebay. :angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='97245' dateline='1473234515'Quote from: 'MinnieAb56' pid='97235' dateline='1473231143'humidity while they were in storage for two months.
Two months seems a bit short.
To bring it back on-topic, I'm guessing they were in PVC containers of some description. A lot of bags, pages, etc from that era were PVC, and it will definitely destroy your coins as described, especially in the presence of moisture.
PVC is a hard white plastic, as used in pipes. To make it soft and clear, they add plasticisers. These leach from the plastic, and combine with air and the water it contains to make an acid paste which eats the surface of whatever was stored in the container.
It cannot be reversed. The best you can hope for is to remove the surface contamination and the sticky residue, and to slow down or stop further degradation. But underneath, the surface will be pitted and permanently damaged.
Additionally, whatever you do to try and remove the gunk can make things worse. There are three basic things you can use:
* Acetone
* WD40/RP7
* Olive oil
Whether they will help will depend on the severity of the affliction. You may alternate them, perhaps repeatedly, but don't leave the coins submerged for months, and don't put multiple coins in the bath together, as they could react with each other and make things worse.
As AJ said, don't rub. You may use a toothpick to pick away encrustations, but be very gentle and stay away from unaffected parts of the coin.
Regardless, when finished, a good rinse, in warm soapy water and perhaps distilled water, dry thoroughly, and seal in Polypropylene (PP or BoPP) or Mylar (BoPET). One is better than the other at keeping Oxygen out, and the other at keeping Water out, and both are safe.
[attachment=3547] This is a photo of one side of the coins
Quote from: 'MinnieAb56' pid='97246' dateline='1473235073'This is a photo of one side of the coins
Yup, looks like PVC to me. And the adhesive on the Cellophane tape doesn't help either.
To be sure, feel and smell it. PVC will feel greasy and have an acrid smell from the nasties its outgassing. Get those coins out ASAP.
PS: When replying, trim the attributions to the minimum necessary to maintain the thread. Just select the superfluous text between the quote tags and hit delete. It will make conversations MUCH easier to follow, and stop bloat.
Yup, looks like PVC to me. And the adhesive on the Cellophane tape doesn't help either.
Why do they sell these damned things for the coins then? So disappointing. What is actually the best way to store them then please.
QuoteThere are three basic things you can use
I say four. Xylene can sometimes remove staining that acetone hasn't (read between the lines -that implies try acetone first). And xylene is nasty stuff; only use in a well ventilated area -outside or with a fan. You can buy that at hardware stores as a paint thinner/solvent.
There is another organic solvent I have tried that works well on high grade (better than 75% silver content -1966 'rounds are 80%) silver coins. Can remove some verdigris -usually not much, but most things don't without damaging the coin- and often does remove a large amount of tarnish (black, sulphur contamination).
My suggestion is similar to others above; acetone followed by warm water (with a few drops of non-brightly coloured detergent) and a rinse in clean water. Then pat dry between a few layers of paper towelling.
If you want to try any of the esoteric suggestions just do it with one coin first to see how it goes.
All good advice and yes I forgot to say pat dry, never rub coins as it will leave fine microscopic marks even if you can't see them with your eye you will see them under magnification and when storing put some of those little moisture bags in, can't hurt but make sure they're not touching the coins just to be sure.
Yes those bloody sleeves, I got mine from the local news agents and never again as they go all hard after a while as well. I got caught when I started and a few years later I looked at my coins and the majority of they were stuffed so now I use either 2x2's or saflips.
I'll post anything else I've forgotten as i'm a bloody sieve sorry.
Oh a cotton tip is good with WD and the like and just roll it don't drag, a bit of practice on the worst coins them move to the better one's.
Yes those bloody sleeves, I got mine from the local news agents and never again as they go all hard after a while as well. I got caught when I started and a few years later I looked at my coins and the majority of they were stuffed so now I use either 2x2's or saflips.
Thanks everyone. I'd best get onto eBay then as I have to lot to move lol
Are the coins safe to be left in their original packaging eg the timber boxes etc
Original mint packaging can let air in so the coins tone and I'd be a little careful with timber as it might damage the coins as well but if you put them in 2x2's or saflip it gives them a little protection. You can heat seal saflips and Fulvio has said he has ironed 2x2's but you have to be careful.
One of the owners of the forum PP sell saflips and folders
http://www.thepurplepenny.com/saflips-coin-pages-and-albums,22.html
there are a few places like online coins in Lismore that sell supplies so just look up Coin Accessories
http://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/
And you'll find both PP and online coins on ebay along with many other suppliers
2x2's come in two sorts, staple or self adhesive and there's for's and against with both. Staple type people complain about the staples scratching other coins but I use pliers and squash them flat and other like the self adhesive one's but some say they can be a bugger and let go and stick to the coin and then you have to get the glue off your coin and some say they're good but it might also depend on how hot it gets where you are.
QuoteAre the coins safe to be left in their original packaging eg the timber boxes etc
My Fine Silver Proof sets in the wooden boxes are as good as the day they were minted, The same goes for the coins that are still left in their clam shells.
As long as the capsule is air tight the coins should be just fine :good:
Quote from: 'MinnieAb56' pid='97252' dateline='1473236026'What is actually the best way to store them then please.
Heat-sealed in PP or BoPET. There are a number of options:
Standard 2x2 mounts are cardboard and BoPET (Mylar). Get the staple type and use a hot iron to weld them shut. Avoid the self-adhesive ones because they let go, especially with heavier coins.
Saflips are PP, and you can weld them shut like Trout does.
You can use PP pages, which all the quality ones are. But don't use PVC albums to put the pages in. Use PP.
The cheapest (free) alternative is to use recycled chip packets. They're a sandwich of BoPET with a metallised and printed core and about as oxygen and moisture proof as you can get. Sadly they're not transparent, but what do ya want for nothing? ;)
For bulk coins, roll them up, put them in PP film and seal them in, then store them in PP containers with tight lids. Add oxygen absorber and Silica Gel sachets and they should be good for centuries.
We've had lots of discussions about storage here. Do some searching. :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='97255' dateline='1473238008'little moisture bags in, can't hurt but make sure they're not touching the coins just to be sure.
Heh, no need to 'be sure'. Silica Gel is Silicon Dioxide. Basically sand. Its the internal structure of the little balls that creates miles of surface area for the water to stick to. That's why its an ADsorber, not an ABsorber.
Notice the very strong lattice structure:
(http://ibchem4u.wikispaces.com/file/view/silicon_dioxide.jpg/319570840/302x239/silicon_dioxide.jpg)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='97262' dateline='1473240546'wooden boxes are as good as the day they were minted
It really depends on the wood though.
All wood is porous. So moisture will get into it and through it. Any wood that gives off an odor is outgassing. Like, say, cedar. Plus, particle boards are made with formaldehyde, which will outgas.
If the wood is dry and well-sealed, it should be OK. Especially if coins are in airtight containers, like your capsules. But if its something like an IKEA chipboard cupboard, not good.
Also, felt linings give off gasses as they deteriorate. Ditto for foam.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='97253' dateline='1473236574'Xylene is nasty stuff
Which is why I don't generally include it. I also don't recommend thermonuclear devices for killing pests either. :diablo:
I was thinking more about the bags them selves and keeping the papery stuff away from coins.
in a nut shell
it's the coin pages
they are reacting with the plastic
get yourself some non plastic coin pages after you give them a nice bath to freshen them up
it looks like mild surface reaction to me
PP has the fancy flips
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SAFLIPS-2x2-Coin-Holder-PVC-FREE-Coin-Flips-w-Inserts-COIN-SAFE-50-pack-Saflip-/201631036323?hash=item2ef22573a3:m:minxrlTuR8pkDaYKAHjzZjA
i use these pages but get them from a direct supplier in the US
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/75-BCW-20-Pocket-Pages-Sheets-for-2x2-Coin-Flips-Holders-Collector-Archival-Safe-/231552113220?hash=item35e994da44:g:VK0AAOSweW5VOARl
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='97274' dateline='1473252828'PP has the fancy flips
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SAFLIPS-2x2-Coin-Holder-PVC-FREE-Coin-Flips-w-Inserts-COIN-SAFE-50-pack-Saflip-/201631036323?hash=item2ef22573a3:m:minxrlTuR8pkDaYKAHjzZjA
I also heat sealed the saflips with a cheapo impulse heat sealer from ebay (~$30-40) rather than use tape or staples. :good: Learnt that from people on this forum.
I wonder if it is possible to seal the staple type 2x2's using a heat sealer instead of Fulvio's Ironing method?
It is pretty much the same concept but would be far more practical than using an iron :ok:
I don't own any of the staple type 2x2's so I can't give it a go, Anyone with a heat sealer and the staple type 2x2's willing to try this out and let us know it is a viable option ??
Quote from: 'trout' pid='97285' dateline='1473255614'I wonder if it is possible to seal the staple type 2x2's using a heat sealer
Nope, because an impulse sealer won't heat up the Mylar inside the cardboard. It probably wouldn't even turn on even.
it might just burn and leave ugly lines
i still think that ironing a coin holder is way too weird for me
i'd most definitely burn the coin/s at some point
but loads of stuff that Fulvio reports on is again way too weird/complcated for me
but he has a cost effective approach and that is very worthwhile
Quote from: 'trout' pid='97285' dateline='1473255614'I wonder if it is possible to seal the staple type 2x2's using a heat sealer instead of Fulvio's Ironing method?
It is pretty much the same concept but would be far more practical than using an iron :ok:
I don't own any of the staple type 2x2's so I can't give it a go, Anyone with a heat sealer and the staple type 2x2's willing to try this out and let us know it is a viable option ??
Just put a staple in an adhesive 2x2,extra cost over stapled 2x2 is chicken feed for better grade coins.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='97315' dateline='1473295777'it might just burn and leave ugly lines
The first one I did, I applied too much pressure and left the heat on too long. I ended up with dented, yellowed cardboard. Which doesn't hurt the coin. Staying away from the clear window is a no-brainer, after all. :angel:
you evidently haven't seen me doing the ironing
being from a family of 8 kids
ironing is fast and furious or else nothing else gets done in the house!
no time for fiddly coin holders that don't require ironing in the first place IMO
You could always hire someone to do your ironing and ask if they do 2x2's as well :mocking: But you might get a strange look :winkextra:
Ha ha
That is funny
I did some at home work as an ironing lady years ago and was told that I was too particular
But I doubt that would qualify for 2x2 ironing jobs!
Yes I like the idea but getting real it's a bit of a joke having so many coins to do.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='97353' dateline='1473327222'I did some at home work as an ironing lady years ago and was told that I was too particular
But I doubt that would qualify for 2x2 ironing jobs!
I'm sure you'd be able to manage these 2x2s ..... :mocking:
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/2x2.jpg)
Now that's a pair of drawers!
Have you been dressing the horses again, or was it little Miss Uni :blink:
:laugh2: ..... AJ ..... perhaps it would be a 2x2 suitable for a mule?
It would sure be a smart dresser .....
:laugh2: could be mate ;)
I hope I don't see something like this next time I'm down :shock:
(http://i67.tinypic.com/jhvx8j.jpg)
Definately not AJ ..... no Silver 4WDs with floats here!
(My tiara is much nicer too ...... :angel:).
:laugh2: why am I not surprised :dodgy:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='97357' dateline='1473327833'Yes I like the idea but getting real it's a bit of a joke having so many coins to do.
Why do you think I'm trying to find better ways to package coins? I spent a fortune on 2x2's years ago, and TBH, I don't feel like I got value for money.
Unfortunately, the tooling for making plastics do what you want is horrendously expensive, and I don't think there's enough of a market to warrant any real investment. So reusing existing materials is the order of the day, at least for now. And ironing mounts shut is one solution.
My ideal product however would be a PP/PET laminate
(one for O2, the other for H2O), formed into a blister pack A4 sheet sort of like on the Olympic cards, with individual clip-on backs. That would be as much protection as you could hope for, and still allow for easy access to coins when needed. But it wouldn't be cheap, and you'd need completely different tooling for each size. Plus, they wouldn't be flexible, and would probably have to be treated very gently to avoid damage. :(
Hrm.. perhaps something smaller, sort of like index cards and a suitable box to hold them?
I would think that if a coin doesn't warrant the relatively small expense of a 2x2 or saflip then it probably in all reality isn't worth collecting anyway :ok:
I would think that many of us have coins that aren't worth the effort/expense of putting in a flip But we just like to hang onto them anyway.
I just put these sort of coins into Ziplock bags which are a cheap and easy solution :)
Yes I hear you both as I have to think about costs being on DSP and have spent way too much money already on storage so the majority of my coins I now just store in ziplock bags I get from the bank as they're happy to give me packets of the things so can't get any cheaper than freebies :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='97398' dateline='1473363194'I just put these sort of coins into Ziplock bags which are a cheap and easy solution :)
But they are also a problem, because LDPE is permeable to both gasses and moisture. As I found out the hard way with the green Coronations.
See, this is all about scale.
There's no debate about thousand-dollar coins. But seriously, how many do we have? My mate Phil showed me his proof pennies the other day, which are in half a dozen of these:
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj168/konero45/vmbcoins.jpg)
But no way can we justify that sort of expense for the average error, low mintage, sleeper or even granny bait coin. Not when we have thousands to deal with. And before the McDuck jokes start, I'm not the only one with lots of coins... look around and tell me I'm wrong. ;)
At the same time, if the way we pack things fails to protect them, then in years to come, when potentially their value will rise, they will be ruined. And ziplock bags fail miserably in this department. We really would be far better off sealing them into used chip packets which are about as impervious as you can get. Maybe turn them inside out if the printing offends. ;)
This is why I'm investigating PP sheet, bags and tubes, and tracked down the manufacturer of those PP buckets. I really can't justify a couple of hundred bucks for my personal use, so in the meantime I'm talking about it and showing people in the hope the idea will catch on and we can place an order. A couple of people at the MNS meeting last night were intrigued about the bucket of Olympic rolls, for sure. :angel:
:scratch_one-s_head: don't you mean green anzac's as the coronation was purple ;)
I have a timber box that I was given :give_heart: It holds 50 slabs and looks really nice but I can't see the point in having a clear lid as you still have to take the slabs out to look at them so that seems a bit pointless.
Yes the bag might not be the best but they're free and it's better than having the coins stacked on top of each other but I do still have them stacked :blush2: I don't really eat chips to save the packets and no I'm not going bin fishing for them :(
And what do you mean before I start, your the only person I know that has that many coins they need a McDuck vault :blink: :mocking:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='97435' dateline='1473387753':scratch_one-s_head: don't you mean green anzac's as the coronation was purple ;)
You've clearly forgotten the story.
I left a heap of coronations in LDPE bags sitting on a cushion and promptly forgot about them. Months later, the bottoms of all the coins turned green. Not verdigris. The metal is now green instead of gold.
This was a harsh lesson that 1. Foam deteriorates and gives off nasty fumes, and 2) LDPE doesn't provide any sort of barrier to this.
Which is why I'm putting so much effort into finding affordable solutions that actually work. The ideal material would be a sandwich with both BoPP and BoPET in reasonably thick films, but if it exists I've yet to find it. :(
:laugh2: oh sorry yes I had forgotten about that, what a bummer :(
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='97447' dateline='1473391533':laugh2: oh sorry yes I had forgotten about that, what a bummer :(
Y'got that right. Just as well it wasn't all of 'em, eh? Vault #1146 has most of them. ;)
All is good Fulvio NONE of my Canberra florins live in ziplocks :)
So is this a reliable way to identify PP container? If it has a 5 in the recycling symbol?
According to this... https://www.cleanup.org.au/PDF/au/cua_plastic_recycling_fact_sheet.pdf
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='98797' dateline='1474849617'So is this a reliable way to identify PP container?
Its reliable insofar as Type 5 is PP, yeah. Its not reliable in that not all products are labelled. For example, supermarket bags are HDPE, same as milk bottles. They don't tell you that because the films tend to jam the shredders that turn plastics into flakes which are then molten and extruded into new pellets.
Also, be aware that containers and their closures are often different materials, and there may even be a seal which could be harmful long-term.
Thanks. Was just wondering if there is a way to tell without setting it on fire.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='98821' dateline='1474868455'Thanks. Was just wondering if there is a way to tell without setting it on fire.
That works. :angel:
So does the recycle code. But less fun. :diablo:
You can also visually identify plastics, as well as by feel and smell. But that won't tell you about any coatings, additives or mechanical properties.
PVC pipe and PVC film are two vastly different products with different properties, but both still carry the same identifier and are recycled the same way. Pipe doesn't have plasticisers, but pages will eat your coins.
Food packaging often contains antimicrobial additives or coatings to better protect the contents and ultimately, you. Whether those extras are harmful to metals is largely unknown though, without trial and error.
And different physical forms, like PET/BoPET or PP/BoPP are the exact same material, just stretched differently to give it more desirable qualities for a given application.
Oh, and of course when you're dealing with films, there are sandwiches made from multiple similar or different layers. Like packages with metal and ink in their core to make them better at keeping an atmosphere in (or out) and the contents fresh for years.
I'm currently trying to find out if there's a BoPP/BoPET film in existence. That would be awesome at dealing with both oxygen and water in a clear film, I reckon. Could be the ultimate coin packaging.
Dear lord! Someone should have talked to PopPop and Nana on proper storage...
http://www.littlethings.com/grandparents-hidden-safe
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='99872' dateline='1476269632'Dear lord! Someone should have talked to PopPop and Nana on proper storage...
What was that thing? A TARDIS? Pardon my pessimism about this 3-year-old story... ;)
I have absolutely NO idea what type of plastic is used for the rolls that I use with my vacuum sealer, But they would have to be at least food grade.
As there is virtually NO air left in the bags when they are sealed would any of the "Nasties" if any are present in the plastic have any adverse affects on the coins still inside the little baggies from RAM over time??
It has to be at least a better option to vacuum seal these than to have them rattling around in the baggies that are not sealed from the air anyway I would think.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='99880' dateline='1476294256'I have absolutely NO idea what type of plastic is used for the rolls that I use with my vacuum sealer, But they would have to be at least food grade.
As there is virtually NO air left in the bags when they are sealed would any of the "Nasties" if any are present in the plastic have any adverse affects on the coins still inside the little baggies from RAM over time??
It has to be at least a better option to vacuum seal these than to have them rattling around in the baggies that are not sealed from the air anyway I would think.
I was thinking of getting a vacuum sealer too. But have trouble identifying the plastic for them so I haven't yet. Where did you get your sealer and for how much?
I originally bought mine to use for Fishing/camping trips and for storing bulk Meat purchases and opted for a 12v/240v dometic brand model for a couple of hundred But there are heaps of other brands and models out there at varying costs :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='99880' dateline='1476294256'I have absolutely NO idea what type of plastic
"
High Barrier Shrink Vacuum BagsThe amount of shelf life enhanced by a vacuum bag is dependent on the structure in the material. A standard vacuum bag is composed of a PA/PE structure where PA is for puncture resistance and PE is for sealing. The high barrier category includes the usage of more layers focused on the prevention of oxygen permeability, and therefore shelf life protection. There are two materials used in high barrier structures, polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC) and ethylene vinyl alcohol (EVOH). Shelf life indication can be effectively measured by how many cubic centimeters of oxygen can permeate through 1 square meter of material over a 24-hour period. A standard PA/PE bag allows on average 100 cubic centimeters, PVDC allows on average over 10, and EVOH on average 1 cubic centimeter. Multi-layer structures allow the ability to use strong oxygen-barrier materials for enhanced shelf life protection. The PremiumPack structure is a good example of EVOH based high barrier shrink material."
The PA is Polyamide, aka Nylon. PE is Polyethylene, probably LDPE, maybe LLDPE. So the bag is exactly the same as a coin bag, except it has an outer Nylon skin for strength. Permeability will be lower than a standard LDPE bag, because of both the thickness and the Nylon skin:
(http://www.mgc.co.jp/eng/products/nop/nmxd6/img/mx_il_02-1.gif)
But then it has to be, doesn't it? Pretty pointless vacuum-sealing a steak if all the Oxygen sneaks back in overnight, right? :dodgy:
Oh, and be aware that anaerobic bacteria love a vacuum. This is mostly a problem for food, and the reason you can't leave the pack in the fridge forever, but it
might be a problem for coins too. No idea if there are bacteria that attack CuNi or AlBr, but here's a wiki page about iron:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_anaerobic_corrosion
Most of that went straight over the top of my head Mate :angel:
Is there anything in the plastic itself that will hurt coins :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='99902' dateline='1476342809'Is there anything in the plastic itself that will hurt coins :)
No.
Its pretty simple really. LDPE is your standard-issue soft plastic bag, as used in coin bags from the mint, Armaguard or ziplocks. It bonds really well, so its perfect for heat sealing.
Unfortunately, as I've documented a couple of times, it also sucks at keeping gasses and moisture in/out. So, they layer it with Nylon, which IS good at that, but sucks at sealing. And if the Nylon isn't good enough, then they put extra layers of other materials in the middle to make it super-efficient.
That simple enough? :angel:
¿Qué?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/manuel.jpg)
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='99912' dateline='1476345688'¿Qué?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/manuel.jpg)
I think the rest of us just wants a link to a website where you can buy the vacuum sealer plastic sheets that you think are safe. We will just take your word for it.
Thanks Fulvio this is the bit that I understood( "NO" )Thanks Mate much aperciated :):angel:
I nearly fell over laughing when I saw the Manwell and the ¿Qué? reply Uni ,That was GOLD :laugh2::)
Pedro made me do it .... :mocking:
So, We could be on a winner here with the vacuum sealer idea.
Now all we have to do is to chip in and buy Fulvio one of these so that he can conduct some field tests for us :)
He can do the tests involving coins and I will attempt to continue my field studies with the eating qualities of vacuum packed fish fillets and collecting the raw materials needed to be packed :angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='99922' dateline='1476357825'Now all we have to do is to chip in and buy Fulvio one of these so that he can conduct some field tests for us :)
Way ahead of you. Dad actually has one of the Aldi ones. But he doesn't know where he put it. Its still sealed in the box apparently, never opened. But he also said he has no rolls. And at $15 or so, seems a tad overpriced to me.
Anyway, IF I can find it, my plan was to conduct tests with other materials. Specifically BoPP and BoPET. And of course the odd chip packet. :angel:
Which reminds me... took a chunk of that red/white 'seafood mix' out of the freezer last night. Hacked at it with a meat cleaver till it split into a reasonable size... and sealed it in.. a chip packet! Its in the fridge thawing now. Now If I'd had the vacuum sealer, that would have been an interesting experiment.
The rolls I get are 10m and usually you get at least 30 bags out of a roll so at 50c each they work out to be a pretty good option.
My machine comes with a built in cutter so I can make bags of whatever size I need :)
If you are just bagging up rolls or mint baggies the you would probably get closer to 50 bags per roll :good:
There is always the option of buying the rolls in bulk from a wholesaler that would further reduce the costs involved, I will try this option when I get close to running out of the rolls that I have now :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='99933' dateline='1476363004'The rolls I get are 10m and usually you get at least 30 bags out of a roll so at 50c each they work out to be a pretty good option.
Yeah, but the PP bags I was looking at for the carded Olympic coins worked out to 8¢. I need to do some tests and see how well other films work.