This is my latest reply in a conversation I've been having with Ross. Since its not just about the Woolies coins, I figured I'd share it as its own thread. I get that they're honestly trying to expand the market (while milking it dry, of course), but I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't think they've found the right answer yet. :angel:
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Agreed. Though we may differ on the way that you're approaching it. ;)
The core problem is that there are people like me, who collect in bulk out of circulation. I'm an error collector, and as you know, condition is everything with coins. So I grab any and all sacks or bags that I can, then down the track noodle them for errors. If its a high-mintage release, the rejects go into the pond. If its a low mintage, I keep them all. I don't sell coins, and probably never will. My heirs can worry about that.
So how do you let me get what I want, while at the same time trying to reach a disinterested general public?
I don't have a foolproof answer to that, but two things I can tell you for sure...
1. Don't inflate my cost base. Case in point, $10 postage for a single $10 bag is ludicrous. Especially compared to say the free postage on the UK '20 for 20' silver coins at face value. Ideally, go back to making sacks available direct from the mint. That gave me a reason to come visit each year, and the $50 fee was reasonable compared to the cost of driving up to collect them and amortised across thousands of coins. Even better was the 'good old days' when we could pick up coins from the RBA in each capital city. If you MUST give Armaguard the entire mintage, then at least compel them to distribute evenly, and not send everything to one place, like they did with the red $2 (I told you so, remember? LOL). They've demonstrated the capability with this Woolies deal, they could just as easily do it with banks.
2. Don't put distribution in untrained hands. Woolworths staff don't comprehend the toxicity of human skin, and they have neither the time nor motivation to not destroy the coins they handle. In a couple of years time, none of these olympic coins (other than the ones in bags) will be worth having because of the handling they're receiving now. And don't tell me about the sets at a 50% premium. They're not the solution. Especially since I'll bet the capsules are one-sided, same as the News Ltd coins. How well are they going to survive a few years or decades exposed to the atmosphere?
If you're going to continue pursuing the mass distribution angle you did with Woolies (and I'll bet you will, given the Libs really really want to sell the mint), then consider individual packaging. Heck, if lollies can be individually wrapped, why not coins? That would at least remove the handling degradation problem, and if done right, most of the bagmarking which makes our coins such crap compared to previous years. I'm not asking for specimen strikes (though now that I have some, I would definitely like more), but rather UNDAMAGED production strikes. Like we used to get before you abandoned mint rolls. Oh, and if you used metallised mylar wraps, like they do with chips, you could introduce a 'collect and swap' aspect that kids would love. Imagine the alphabet coins released this way through the supermarkets for example. Instead of overpriced rubbish, they'd become sought-after introductions to collecting, and also be on serious collectors wishlists rather than just being granny-bait.
Remember we all have the same goals when it comes to increasing the collector population. I look around at Melbourne Numismatic Society meetings, and I see very few fresh young faces. None of us are getting any younger (one of our founders is now 101!). If we can't entice young people away from their phones and into the hobby, Numismatics is doomed and our collections will be cashed in at the bank and lost when we die.
Work with us rather than against us. Is that too much to ask?
On 2016/07/25, at 8:31 AM, Ross MacDiarmid wrote:
But in either situation I hope you agree that we should not stop these initiatives simply because of the 'unethical' and possibly illegal behaviour of a few. We, RAM supporting the numismatic community, are desperately trying to encourage as many as people as possible to become collectors. This is just one way of doing so.
Another recent conversation involving the mint .......
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/chew.jpg)
(Sorry, just had to).
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='93228' dateline='1469444135'Another recent conversation involving the mint .......
:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:
Before this thread devolves into a RAM bashing exercise, Lets think about the Good and the useful initiatives that RAM has come up with over the last few years OK :)
When the first of these coloured ring $2 was minted ( I can't remember what colour it was ) RAM made little 5 coin baggies available to collectors and the majority of collectors were quite happy and appreciative of this.
Also there have been various coin swaps organised where you hand over some old cash or coins in exchange for some newly minted commemorative coins at a penny for penny basis, This was great for collectors that could make it to Canberra or the major cities.
The recent Changeover tour was another good initiative that reached a great deal of Aussie collectors and I am pretty sure that this would have been quite an expensive exercise and a lot of hard work for the RAM employees that manned the tent and were away from home for extended periods.
As far as the $10 for postage and handling for the 2016 commemorative coin baggies, I would think that this has stopped anyone from "Rorting" this welcome initiative and is also in line with most of the shipping charges you will find on eBay listings for a similar service anyway.
I could go on and on , So it's NOT all bad news at the moment I think :ok:
As for getting pertinent and accurate information from RAM, I wish you well "Don" Fulvio in your quest :angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='93237' dateline='1469465924'As for getting pertinent and accurate information from RAM, I wish you well "Don" Fulvio in your quest :angel:
Make 'em an offer they can't refuse, eh? :mafia: OK boys, let's go for a little ride.:mafia:
Getting anything is like pulling teeth. Usually you have to read between the lines when things are let slip, because direct answers are never forthcoming. Look at the question of pallet sizes. 'Commercial in confidence' they said. But the information was clearly available from the US Mint, and they posted a video with said pallets in the background which allowed a little math to get the right answer. That one still makes no sense, BTW. I mean, they used to provide accurate counts back when they were using bulk totes, remember?
And yes, the RAM has done a lot of good things. No denying that. But they've removed a few things they used to get right. And they've jacked up prices. And dropped quality. And added stacks of BS product lines, which is why I started calling them the RASF (Royal Australian Souvenir Factory), on a par with the Franklin Mint and others.
I just want them to do better. Is that too much to ask? :angel:
Any time you want to influence what happens you need to understand motivations and suggest things which fit those motivations.
What does the mint want to do?
What can you suggest which will meet what the mint wants and what you want?
I suspect that minimising production costs is high on thier list. How does that fit with producing higher quality/less damaged coins that you want?
I suspect they will want people to pay more for better coins.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='93244' dateline='1469492451'I suspect they will want people to pay more for better coins.
Of course they do. But at the same time, they remain a government instrumentality charged with providing our circulating coinage. And the government has, or at least should have, an interest in maintaining high standards.
"The Royal Australian Mint (the Mint) is a prescribed agency operating under the Financial Management and Accountability Act 1997. The Mint's vision is to achieve excellence as a sustainable world class Mint. Its goal is to meet the circulating coin and collector coin needs of Australia and selected international markets. The Mint is also the custodian of Australia's National Coin Collection and provides educational and tourist services to local and overseas residents."And again, I refer to the UK and Canadian silver coins at face value. These are absolutely gorgeous, and make our stuff look like crap by comparison. Why do they produce them? Probably to entice newcomers into collecting.
And lets also not forget that the value stored in our collections constitutes a win for the government, in the form of seigniorage.
From http://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/1997/jul/pdf/bu-0797-1.pdf:
"When a commercial bank requires additional notes to meet the needs of its customers it buys those notes from the RBA. The bank pays for these notes by providing the RBA with another financial asset – such as a government security – the value of which is equal to the face value of the notes. Seigniorage arises because the cost of producing the notes is much smaller than the value of the asset received by the RBA.
There are two approaches to measuring seigniorage. The first directly compares the face value of increases in the stock of currency with the costs of producing the currency; these costs include the costs of replacing worn-out notes. Using this measure – sometimes known as the 'cash-flow' approach – the profits from currency issue are recorded at the time that the currency enters circulation; this is the practice used to account for the seigniorage earned by the Treasury from the coin issue. The second approach treats currency as a liability of the issuer, and measures the flow of income from the assets held by the issuer as a result of the currency issue (less production costs). Because currency notes are frequently returned, cancelled and re-issued, this 'accrual' or 'liability' approach is the preferred approach to measuring seigniorage from note issue and is used by the RBA. This approach results in a flow of profits over time. Over long periods the two approaches should yield similar estimates of seigniorage if the rate of increase in notes on issue is similar to the rate of return earned by the central bank on its assets. Seigniorage is included in the Bank's overall profits, which are paid to the government."Basically, every dollar we pull from circulation and stash away reduces supply and requires replacement currency to take its place, generating a profit for the government.
Plus, consider the services and supplies we consume, and the taxes on those, regardless of who the providers are.
We don't NEED to be ripped off to be profitable for the government and the mint.
I admire your approach Fulvio. For your sake, I hope that you are able to ram some sense home to these guys (pun intended).
It seems that their short term views may generate short term profits, but the long term value is and will continue to be eroded.
Until we can get the RAM to take a long term approach, I don't see what motivation they have for changing their methods.
The Royal Mint in the UK seldom gives out free postage for orders under 45 GBP placed on their web site. For orders under 21 GBP, they charge 3 GBP and for over 21 GBP, they charge 5 GBP.
So to get free postage on the UK 20 for 20 coin you need to purchase 3 of them.
Ken
Quote from: 'ken-a' pid='93257' dateline='1469552782'So to get free postage on the UK 20 for 20 coin you need to purchase 3 of them.
"FREE UK delivery when you buy this coin - Use Code E1736B
The Queen's 90th Birthday 2016 UK £20 Fine Silver Coin"They do this fairly often. Every few weeks at least.
Where do you find out about that code?
I don't recall seeing that code in any emails, mailings, or on the Royal Mint Facebook page.
By the way, the Royal Mint is playing silly games with the Welsh Dragon 20 for 20 coin. They are selling it at the Royal Mint gift shop in one package. They had it briefly on their web site for sale in a different package - no orders have shipped yet. So they are calling the one from the gift shop the 2nd 20 for 20 for the year and the one from the web site the third for year.
"achieve excellence as a sustainable world class Mint"
Quality of the product they make would have to be one of the criteria for achieving excellence.
Quote from: 'ken-a' pid='93277' dateline='1469617359'Where do you find out about that code?
In the latest email from them, just before the close of orders for the last one (not near my email machine right now, sorry).
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='93294' dateline='1469654877'Quality of the product they make would have to be one of the criteria for achieving excellence.
Yeah, and they fail pretty dismally, don't they?
You looked at the Olympic sets? :dodgy: