Just notice this morning that catalogue is finally out.
http://www.noble.com.au/site/docs/cats/sale_112/A12.pdf
:drooling: Noticed a couple of the rarer pennies ie 1920 dot above lower scroll London obverse and 1931 Indian are not in the Fenton PCGS list. Seems like disinterest / indifference had been set in for a while. :scratch_one-s_head:
Yes :agreed: auto :drooling: some lovely coins but well way out of my price rang :( It's nice to window shop so I wish they'd give the pcgs numbers so we could have a better look at the coin as their pic's are a little fuzzy when you zoom in
The estimates seem to be quite low.
Still way too deep for my shallow pockets :blink:
who is/was George Fenton?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='91948' dateline='1467599327'who is/was George Fenton?
He has a rather impressive lot of PCGS registry sets is about all I know.
ta :d_sunny:
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='91937' dateline='1467589259'Just notice this morning that catalogue is finally out.
http://www.noble.com.au/site/docs/cats/sale_112/A12.pdf
Nice ! Looks like some very impressive coins are on the market at a very reasonable prices (at least the reserve prices are low)... would be very interesting.... when is it ? 25 July ?
Thank you Kchan for your post ...
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='91940' dateline='1467593214'I wish they'd give the pcgs numbers so we could have a better look at the coin as their pic's are a little fuzzy when you zoom in
There is better pics here:
http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/search/?sale=112&p=1&c=6255
The Fenton collection is 7.30 Wednesday 27th July.
Thanks Rob :good:
:sun_bespectacled:
wow nice coins there
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='91963' dateline='1467627823'well it is a damn fine collection
if i was a millionaire i'd buy the whole lot
I was talking to another member tonight who is going to buy a lotto ticket
with a view to buying them all with the winnings so great minds think alike
Hahaha.. I might do just that :yahoo:
Edit - Just bought a lotto ticket
These sets need to be retired from the registry.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='91966' dateline='1467631307'These sets need to be retired from the registry.
Once they are sold I would agree. Then I'll move one place up the current finest set. Now to get Timbertop to trip down the stairs....:mafia:
Was wondering that myself. To quote the July CAB issue; "George Fenton, the founder and principal of Paladin Energy in Texas".
:laugh2:
I'd do it for a few dollars Neal :)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='91972' dateline='1467638745'Was wondering that myself. To quote the July CAB issue; "George Fenton, the founder and principal of Paladin Energy in Texas".
Right, TX is where money is.. that explains the quality of coins on sale. Wonder why he didnt consign with HA auctions ?
:angel:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91967' dateline='1467631641'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='91966' dateline='1467631307'These sets need to be retired from the registry.
Once they are sold I would agree.
Yes, once they are sold. I presume the new owners (at least the ones who are into the set registry thing) will want to register their coins. If the sets were not retired they would then automatically drop down the list, since the same coin can't be in two sets at the same time.
QuoteThen I'll move one place up the current finest set.
Everyone will move up one place, our relative positions won't change (unless of course you buy a truck load at the auction).
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='91962' dateline='1467624733'Thanks Rob :good:
I'm not sure how it works AJ but you can still look at some of the Fenton sets on PCGS. One of the Florin sets was not visible but most of the others are still available to view the individual coins.
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/othersets.aspx?m=23127
I bet timbertops is happy :winkextra:
thanks for that AJ
now i get what the others were talking about!
:hi:
Yes he has a really big collection that's for sure or should I say had :winkextra:
:wavemulticolor:
go George wish you every success at the auction
So who is planning to attend the auction ? I am planning to be there .....
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='92599' dateline='1468621031'So who is planning to attend the auction ? I am planning to be there .....
I was going to see if I could make it to a viewing. Not sure about the auction itself. You can do it all online, right?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='92601' dateline='1468623551'Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='92599' dateline='1468621031'So who is planning to attend the auction ? I am planning to be there .....
I was going to see if I could make it to a viewing. Not sure about the auction itself. You can do it all online, right?
Yes you can do it online... however if you bid live on line auction, then there is an additional 3% on the lot. Ie total commission will go to 22.5%.
"an additional 3%"
Yes I read that, the online auction host gets that as its cut. I made some early bids but I won't be bidding live.
That 22.5% commission is going to seriously affect the prices achieved at this auction, That is a serious amount of "vigorish" added to the auction price :dodgy:
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='92604' dateline='1468624240'"an additional 3%"
Yes I read that, the online auction host gets that as its cut. I made some early bids but I won't be bidding live.
Yep, cool.. then thats fine... Good luck with it all.. :wavemulticolor:
I will bid online (pre auction) and then I will hopefully can go and see the auction as well. I am going to the city that day for a work conference so stay back and see how the auction go... I know another member from here who works with me will be going to the auction..:yahoo:
Here is an article about the collection.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-21/unique-australian-coin-collection-about-to-go/7650450
I just received an email from Universal coin co telling me about this auction and that Their Friends at Nobles are helping them with this Sale.
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='93169' dateline='1469344390'Here is an article about the collection.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-21/unique-australian-coin-collection-about-to-go/7650450
Thank!
I have had it with nobles, I am sick of being the under bidder on so many coins when I hear them call my high bid out some times 4 times the current bid then I get out bid by 1 bid. of course this will happen! whoever hears my bid knows they can get the tiem with 1 other bid so they get it!!!! so pissed right now, I think I would have got far more items had they put my bids up 1 at a time and other bidders don't know my limit. and don't get me started on the bullsht estimates they had. I notice on the hot items (the fenton stuff) they have low estimates to bait us into bidding but the lower value stuff in the other areas they have higher estimates to "reserve "items. plus even if you bid and they accept your bid they can just make it go away if they have a hidden reserve.
last auction I ever bid on and I cant wait till they come across at the next major show and I can give them a piece of my mind
Yeah,Auctions can be a jungle,best not to show any interest until your item comes up but even then its all a game with multiple ways for both the seller and buyer to be manipulated.
Massive blunder to sell top pop PCGS graded coins via Nobles.
No mention of the PCGS grade as they came up for sale.
Pics were a bit poor as usual for Nobles.
PCGS MS64RB described as aUNC...
Oh and don't start me on the bs that is an almost 20% buyers commission on top of the seller having to stump up a sellers commission! These dinosaurs of the auction worlds days are numbered as far as I am concerned. Fenton should have sold through Numisbid, he would have got more, sellers would have paid less and the graded coin industry would have evolved a little bit.
Even eBay are better to deal with than nobles
I am just so mad tonight!
I managed to pick up a nice Fenton halfpenny .Although it was more than I wanted
to pay I think it was still reasonable
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/22d~0.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/22c~0.jpg)
I bid on 4 George V florins and lost out all four to the same bidder. Lot after lot went to the same guy - not just florins but also shillings, pennies, everything.
I think he might be from Universal Coin. I checked out their Facebook page and saw his pic there.
Nice coin Steve and well under Bluesheet valuation :yahoo:
If you bid via the internet then that $427.50 buyers premium must sting a bit though :dodgy:
For me and some other fellow dealers and collectors had a not too bad auction. Picked up a 1934 and 1952 6D for my set.. I saw Kchan, but didnt get to talk to him... may be next time. I must admit, I expected lot more competition for the coins..
I was the under bidder on that 52 :(
I just looked through the prices achieved at this auction and most of the coins sold rather cheaply.
I am not sure if this is a true indication of the current market values or it was the exorbitant buyers premium that may have influenced buyers Not to bother with this auction.
Quote from: 'serial' pid='93282' dateline='1469623803'Oh and don't start me on the bs that is an almost 20% buyers commission
If you bid live online you get to pay another 3% commission on top of the 19.25% commission.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93281' dateline='1469623547'No mention of the PCGS grade as they came up for sale.
It's almost as if Nobles view the PCGS slabs as a minor, unavoidable, slightly annoying irritation and distraction.
Quote from: 'serial' pid='93288' dateline='1469633780'I was the under bidder on that 52 :(
What I have paid for that coin is the max I was prepared to pay. I tbought there was a dealer or two bid on that coin as well.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='93286' dateline='1469628259'Nice coin Steve and well under Bluesheet valuation :yahoo:
If you bid via the internet then that $427.50 buyers premium must sting a bit though :dodgy:
It's not even on the bluesheet and yes $427.50 is a bit of a slug but thats the
price you pay for the best.At least being slabbed already means I didnt get
caught with an overgraded cleaned raw coin as I have more than once previously
Quote from: 'serial' pid='93282' dateline='1469623803'Oh and don't start me on the bs that is an almost 20% buyers commission on top of the seller having to stump up a sellers commission! These dinosaurs of the auction worlds days are numbered as far as I am concerned. Fenton should have sold through Numisbid, he would have got more, sellers would have paid less and the graded coin industry would have evolved a little bit.
Even eBay are better to deal with than nobles
I am just so mad tonight!
I know a collector who's been through in the past what you're going through now, and he was so frustrated that he flew down from north-western Australia for two nights to bid in person!
Eric
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='93296' dateline='1469656392'Quote from: 'trout' pid='93286' dateline='1469628259'Nice coin Steve and well under Bluesheet valuation :yahoo:
If you bid via the internet then that $427.50 buyers premium must sting a bit though :dodgy:
It's not even on the bluesheet and yes $427.50 is a bit of a slug but thats the
price you pay for the best.At least being slabbed already means I didnt get
caught with an overgraded cleaned raw coin as I have more than once previously
I was looking at the MS65RB @ $4,100 a MS66BN would have to be valued above that :good:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='93297' dateline='1469657174'Quote from: 'serial' pid='93282' dateline='1469623803'Oh and don't start me on the bs that is an almost 20% buyers commission on top of the seller having to stump up a sellers commission! These dinosaurs of the auction worlds days are numbered as far as I am concerned. Fenton should have sold through Numisbid, he would have got more, sellers would have paid less and the graded coin industry would have evolved a little bit.
Even eBay are better to deal with than nobles
I am just so mad tonight!
I know a collector who's been through in the past what you're going through now, and he was so frustrated that he flew down from north-western Australia for two nights to bid in person!
Eric
My experience from placing early bids has been pretty much the same as Serial's across every auction house in Australia that I've bid on lots. You either win at max bid, or are the immediate under-bidder. Live bidding, even at an extra 3% would have been a better idea.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='93299' dateline='1469658053'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='93297' dateline='1469657174'Quote from: 'serial' pid='93282' dateline='1469623803'Oh and don't start me on the bs that is an almost 20% buyers commission on top of the seller having to stump up a sellers commission! These dinosaurs of the auction worlds days are numbered as far as I am concerned. Fenton should have sold through Numisbid, he would have got more, sellers would have paid less and the graded coin industry would have evolved a little bit.
Even eBay are better to deal with than nobles
I am just so mad tonight!
I know a collector who's been through in the past what you're going through now, and he was so frustrated that he flew down from north-western Australia for two nights to bid in person!
Eric
My experience from placing early bids has been pretty much the same as Serial's across every auction house in Australia that I've bid on lots. You either win at max bid, or are the immediate under-bidder. Live bidding, even at an extra 3% would have been a better idea.
yeh well I was saving up all month for this, had a decent budget to spend and now I own 0 fenton coins :(
worse still is the missus will see I havnt spent the $$$ and we will redo the bathroom now instead
Quote from: 'serial' pid='93301' dateline='1469662852'yeh well I was saving up all month for this, had a decent budget to spend and now I own 0 fenton coins :(
worse still is the missus will see I havnt spent the $$$ and we will redo the bathroom now instead
Well at least one person in the house will be happy :) That's never a bad outcome. PPH and I went and viewed the Noble auction and we've won almost nothing. Which is a shame, there were things in there we'd have loved to have in our own collections. Better luck to all of us next time!
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93281' dateline='1469623547'No mention of the PCGS grade as they came up for sale.
I found this as well. I was lucky that the guys around me had the catalogue.
The space bar on the keyboard used by the operator controlling the online bidding would need to be replaced after that auction.
I managed to come away with what I needed, and have completed my KGVI Halfpenny Set.
Quote from: 'serial' pid='93278' dateline='1469617441'I have had it with nobles, I am sick of being the under bidder on so many coins when I hear them call my high bid out some times 4 times the current bid then I get out bid by 1 bid.
Yeah I noticed that happening all night. My main gripe about this method of processing the pre bids is not so much about missing an item, but more to do with maximum bids being flagged early, meaning pre bidders will often pay over the top for items where there is little or no floor interest.
There were many occasions last night when you heard the voice from the floor presumably place a pre bid that was hundreds of dollars above a stagnating floor price or above a low estimate that wasn't being met.
It seems that once the incremental pre auction bidding has finished, it just becomes open season. I have placed pre bids with most other auction houses without this nonsense happening. These circumstances may be all good if you were a vendor though, but you would think as pre bidders loose interest it may not be in the long run.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='93304' dateline='1469665029'Quote from: 'serial' pid='93278' dateline='1469617441'I have had it with nobles, I am sick of being the under bidder on so many coins when I hear them call my high bid out some times 4 times the current bid then I get out bid by 1 bid.
Yeah I noticed that happening all night. My main gripe about this method of processing the pre bids is not so much about missing an item, but more to do with maximum bids being flagged early, meaning pre bidders will often pay over the top for items where there is little or no floor interest.
There were many occasions last night when you heard the voice from the floor presumably place a pre bid that was hundreds of dollars above a stagnating floor price or above a low estimate that wasn't being met.
It seems that once the incremental pre auction bidding has finished, it just becomes open season. I have placed pre bids with most other auction houses without this nonsense happening. These circumstances may be all good if you were a vendor though, but you would think as pre bidders loose interest it may not be in the long run.
They've been doing it for years and we've discussed it before but they do have the best coins to auction so if you can get past their poor grading then bidding live or bidding from the room is probably the best option
It also means postal bidders have to keep their bids conservative which results in poorer outcomes for vendors.
Quote from: 'Fr45h3R' pid='93303' dateline='1469663193'I managed to come away with what I needed, and have completed my KGVI Halfpenny Set.
So when can we expect your collection to be auctioned off? :)
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='93311' dateline='1469676758'Quote from: 'Fr45h3R' pid='93303' dateline='1469663193'I managed to come away with what I needed, and have completed my KGVI Halfpenny Set.
So when can we expect your collection to be auctioned off? :)
Hah, I'd be lucky to get the money back I've put into the set, so probably not until people appreciate their rarity.
I have come to the view bidding at an auction is completely unfair. You are bidding against buyers that have negotiated a buyers premium less than the normal rate, the auction house itself that pays no commission at all. You also have the auction house not following incremental bidding and phantom bidding pushing up the price. There is absolutely no transparency what so ever. Even being in the room does not guarantee fairness. IMHO the industry needs to be cleaned up. Both buy and seller should be able to get a run sheet of each item to see that bidding was fair including incremental bidding and to know they are not competing with anyone with an advantage. Where a particular bidder has an advantage such as reduced fees that bidder should be flagged to you know you are competing with someone with and advantage. If the auction house or any associate has any interest in an item ie owns it or wants to bid on it it should appear in the auction catalogue. If no interest is shown in the catalogue then they can not bid on it. These changes would make it a lot fairer.
As to the Fenton collection I don't get why I can buy an ms65 1964 penny off eBay for $30 but an ms66 sold for close to $500 inc commissions. I also don't get why a piece of plastic turns a $20 coin into a $500 coin. Either my Renniks and maccas are bigger works of fiction than I thought or the market is just nuts.
I do get the value add from stabbing and the premium for some sort of surety of grade but think this has gone overboard sometimes.
Quote from: 'Fr45h3R' pid='93303' dateline='1469663193'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93281' dateline='1469623547'No mention of the PCGS grade as they came up for sale.
I found this as well. I was lucky that the guys around me had the catalogue.
The space bar on the keyboard used by the operator controlling the online bidding would need to be replaced after that auction.
I managed to come away with what I needed, and have completed my KGVI Halfpenny Set.
I rather like the look of that 1924 penny in your profile pic numbers
Fenton needs to retire his sets.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93326' dateline='1469699842'As to the Fenton collection I don't get why I can buy an ms65 1964 penny off eBay for $30 but an ms66 sold for close to $500 inc commissions. I also don't get why a piece of plastic turns a $20 coin into a $500 coin. Either my Renniks and maccas are bigger works of fiction than I thought or the market is just nuts.
I do get the value add from stabbing and the premium for some sort of surety of grade but think this has gone overboard sometimes.
It's a numbers game.
On the PCGS population report, there are 61 brown, 635 Red/Brown and 412 Full Red 1964 Melbourne Pennies graded. Out of 1108 coins, 10 coins, are MS66RD (highest graded)
With a roll being 60 coins, those odds are pretty much around one MS66RD per 2 rolls. By the time you buy 2 rolls, pay for the grading (say around $20? per coin in a bulk submission) you're looking at $1200 grading fees, not including the cost of the rolls... and IF you're lucky, you'll get 1 MS66RD.
And...
If the coins showing on the population report were from bulk submissions, and a minimum grade was specified, the rejected coins wouldn't show in these numbers (so they percentage could be lower again), plus if any were cherry picked from multiple rolls, the percentage drops again.
I've had many coins graded over the years, and to get something better than MS64 in copper is pretty rare unless if you have the opportunity to fish through 100's of coins.
-rob
I understand the numbers game. The big issue is that in the scheme of things not many Aussie coins are slabbed. There are infinitely more high grade coins go through eBay and real life auctions that are than slabbed coins. This means the slabbed population is not a realistic population. As more coins get slabbed then the price has to drop. This mean paying significantly higher for a slabbed coin over a non graded coin is dangerous and probably a poor investment as more slabs are done. This is probably part of the the reason slabbed coins are slowly dropping in value. I remember the days when I 1964 penny in ms64 was over $100....now done to $30
bigfellani,
the trick here is to not only look at the populations of graded coins but to also fully immerse yourself in the coin market and get an understanding of what is actually out there still for sale.
This is investing 101 and I assure you that several coins changed hands last night that will never be beaten in grade or at best get beaten by 1 or 2 coins. now as the number of collectors increase on set registries so will the demand for the couple of top pop coins out there and hence the price will reflect this especially, as players in the market accumulate personal wealth.
As far as I am concerned set registries are the next generation's way of collecting and we are increasingly living in a global environment so the potential market size is increasing dramatically and supply of coins is finite
I also believe last night was a wasted opportunity to showcase the global potential of graded coin as an investment vehicle if you focus on ultra high grade rarities', wasted because of a greedy (20% buyers commission is greedy) old school auction house using antiquated auction techniques favouring local established relationships over the potential to break out on a global level by promoting the surety of graded coin and modern online auction systems.
Numisbid is the transparent future, Noble's is the shady, over grading , secret handshake past that discourages mainstream entry into collecting/investing in numismatics
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93333' dateline='1469703897'As more coins get slabbed then the price has to drop. This mean paying significantly higher for a slabbed coin over a non graded coin is dangerous and probably a poor investment as more slabs are done. This is probably part of the the reason slabbed coins are slowly dropping in value. I remember the days when I 1964 penny in ms64 was over $100....now done to $30
I agree 100% with your first post as well,my Brother and my Nephew are both in Real Estate and the shenanigans they get up to in Auctions to gain maximum commissions are shocking,i can't see Coin Auctions being any different.
I think the Honeymoon period with slabbing is just starting to get the wobbles as the market is flooded with Coins that aren't worth the Slabbing Fee,probably another year or two thou. before market forces and reality finally set in.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93333' dateline='1469703897'I understand the numbers game. The big issue is that in the scheme of things not many Aussie coins are slabbed. There are infinitely more high grade coins go through eBay and real life auctions that are than slabbed coins. This means the slabbed population is not a realistic population. As more coins get slabbed then the price has to drop. This mean paying significantly higher for a slabbed coin over a non graded coin is dangerous and probably a poor investment as more slabs are done. This is probably part of the the reason slabbed coins are slowly dropping in value. I remember the days when I 1964 penny in ms64 was over $100....now done to $30
That's right, we don't know what hasn't been graded that is in private hands or is raw or selling on eBay.
However (don't quote me) some of the Australian dealers have been grading and selling thirds party graded coins for almost 10 years (could be longer?) so I think the population report can be used as a pretty good guide for pricing and availability.
Personally, I wouldn't put coins and investment in the same sentence. I've seen the word used many times for both raw and pcgs graded coins, even with current decimal releases.
As I help out at the Petersham shows, I do have a wander around and from what I can tell, raw coins and third party graded coins are pretty much evenly priced. The prices have certainly come down in the last year or so.
I don't however see much quality raw stuff around (choice+), but that's not to say it isn't out there.
-rob
I hear both side of the argument. If you look at 1918 Suxpence or a 1934 Shilling, they are low mintage coins. The likelihood of multiple MS66 coins coming in to the market is very low. Also people like myself, graded coins are the only way to go. This is due to,
1. Being time poor. (99% coins are purchased online).
2. Not having the ability to grade coins accurately.
3. Non ambiguous grade
If anyone can sell me a 100% sure GEM Raw coin at a reasonable price, I have an offer for you...
As a side note, some of the prices paid a few years ago, are very high. However I do not think the people who paid cares too much about it.. They wanted something they liked any they bought it. It is no different to getting a Ferrari for a cool $500K brand new and selling it after 5 years for $100K ... They have the means and they just do it.
I have bought Many Many "Raw" coins that were graded at choice uncirculated or Gem uncirculated that have turned out to be "Lemons", This cannot be said for the PCGS/NGC graded coins I have purchased, There have been one or two coins that I have been disappointed with but overall my experience with buying graded coins has been very positive.
The Raw coins and the graded coins May be priced the same at some shows and online auctions But I would imagine that the graded coins are a far more saleable proposition.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='93340' dateline='1469708811'I have bought Many Many "Raw" coins that were graded at choice uncirculated or Gem uncirculated that have turned out to be "Lemons", This cannot be said for the PCGS/NGC graded coins I have purchased, There have been one or two coins that I have been disappointed with but overall my experience with buying graded coins has been very positive.
The Raw coins and the graded coins May be priced the same at some shows and online auctions But I would imagine that the graded coins are a far more saleable proposition.
I know that
lemon feeling:-/. In the past year I have purchased several pricey ($500+) lemons. But then I have also picked up a few raw coins for 10-20% of their value:yahoo:
It isn't just fleabay that sells lemons, I've seen any number of auction house coins that are claimed to be Unc to Gem that have issues (cleaning in particular) that will either badly downgrade a coin or will no grade them.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93326' dateline='1469699842'I have come to the view bidding at an auction is completely unfair. You are bidding against buyers that have negotiated a buyers premium less than the normal rate, the auction house itself that pays no commission at all. You also have the auction house not following incremental bidding and phantom bidding pushing up the price. There is absolutely no transparency what so ever. Even being in the room does not guarantee fairness. IMHO the industry needs to be cleaned up. Both buy and seller should be able to get a run sheet of each item to see that bidding was fair including incremental bidding and to know they are not competing with anyone with an advantage. Where a particular bidder has an advantage such as reduced fees that bidder should be flagged to you know you are competing with someone with and advantage. If the auction house or any associate has any interest in an item ie owns it or wants to bid on it it should appear in the auction catalogue. If no interest is shown in the catalogue then they can not bid on it. These changes would make it a lot fairer.
As to the Fenton collection I don't get why I can buy an ms65 1964 penny off eBay for $30 but an ms66 sold for close to $500 inc commissions. I also don't get why a piece of plastic turns a $20 coin into a $500 coin. Either my Renniks and maccas are bigger works of fiction than I thought or the market is just nuts.
I do get the value add from stabbing and the premium for some sort of surety of grade but think this has gone overboard sometimes.
I wasn't aware the buyers premiums are negotiated lower. Is this true and how much do you know about it?
Eric
QuoteAs to the Fenton collection I don't get why I can buy an ms65 1964 penny off eBay for $30 but an ms66 sold for close to $500 inc commissions
There is quite a difference between a MS65 coin and a MS66 coin.
Not only in the grade but the rarity factor kicks in here, There are not too many early pre decimals that make it into the MS66 or better range probably due to improper storage and handling over the years.
as I am pretty "Up to Speed" with the values for Canberra florins I will use these as an example :ok:
A MS64 coin has a market value at the moment of between $175-$250 depending on the individual coin. PCGS population of 115
A MS65 coin is currently valued between $500-$750 depending on the individual coin as well. PCGS population of 54.
The MS66 coins rarely appear on the Market and the prices for these can vary from a mere $1600 at the latest sale of the Fenton coin to $4000 for a "Primo" example. These have a PCGS population of only 10 coins.
There is only one coin graded at MS67 at the moment and I have NO idea what that coin would achieve at auction, But I don't think it would be Cheap.
you can see by this that the rarity factor has a huge influence on the values of these coins.
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='93356' dateline='1469714596'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93326' dateline='1469699842'I have come to the view bidding at an auction is completely unfair. You are bidding against buyers that have negotiated a buyers premium less than the normal rate, the auction house itself that pays no commission at all. You also have the auction house not following incremental bidding and phantom bidding pushing up the price. There is absolutely no transparency what so ever. Even being in the room does not guarantee fairness. IMHO the industry needs to be cleaned up. Both buy and seller should be able to get a run sheet of each item to see that bidding was fair including incremental bidding and to know they are not competing with anyone with an advantage. Where a particular bidder has an advantage such as reduced fees that bidder should be flagged to you know you are competing with someone with and advantage. If the auction house or any associate has any interest in an item ie owns it or wants to bid on it it should appear in the auction catalogue. If no interest is shown in the catalogue then they can not bid on it. These changes would make it a lot fairer.
As to the Fenton collection I don't get why I can buy an ms65 1964 penny off eBay for $30 but an ms66 sold for close to $500 inc commissions. I also don't get why a piece of plastic turns a $20 coin into a $500 coin. Either my Renniks and maccas are bigger works of fiction than I thought or the market is just nuts.
I do get the value add from stabbing and the premium for some sort of surety of grade but think this has gone overboard sometimes.
I wasn't aware the buyers premiums are negotiated lower. Is this true and how much do you know about it?
Eric
It is obvious that if the auction house wins an item they are not going to pay commissions to themselves so they have a 20% advantage. I have a customer that attends a lot of auctions and has told me of such arrangements afforded to a select regular big spenders at some auctions. Thinking about it it makes sense to an auction house. If as a vendors I can negotiate a lower rate because of the amount I throw through an auction, to attract large spenders why not offer a discount. Gives the buyer an advantage that can only push up the price. If the person with the advantage looses then high commission is paid by the buyer and vendor. If they win then the vendor pays a higher commission because price is pushed up.
QuoteIt is obvious that if the auction house wins an item they are not going to pay commissions to themselves so they have a 20% advantage. I have a customer that attends a lot of auctions and has told me of such arrangements afforded to a select regular big spenders at some auctions. Thinking about it it makes sense to an auction house. If as a vendors I can negotiate a lower rate because of the amount I throw through an auction, to attract large spenders why not offer a discount. Gives the buyer an advantage that can only push up the price. If the person with the advantage looses then high commission is paid by the buyer and vendor. If they win then the vendor pays a higher commission because price is pushed up.
Has anyone asked Nobles if this actually happens at an auction and if it did would they admit to it ??
I know that the buyers fees are waived sometimes in order to secure some submissions but I haven't been aware of this other practice of the sellers fees being waived under special circumstances.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='93372' dateline='1469745408'..... I haven't been aware of this other practice of the sellers fees being waived under special circumstances.
Common practice in the Antique Auction business here and in the UK Jim,regulars including other Dealers have arrangements with the Auction Houses as regards Fees.
I don't know if this happens with Nobles but you would assume he would look after his repeat and long term clients/dealers/collectors.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93368' dateline='1469741429'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='93356' dateline='1469714596'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93326' dateline='1469699842'I have come to the view bidding at an auction is completely unfair. You are bidding against buyers that have negotiated a buyers premium less than the normal rate, the auction house itself that pays no commission at all. You also have the auction house not following incremental bidding and phantom bidding pushing up the price. There is absolutely no transparency what so ever. Even being in the room does not guarantee fairness. IMHO the industry needs to be cleaned up. Both buy and seller should be able to get a run sheet of each item to see that bidding was fair including incremental bidding and to know they are not competing with anyone with an advantage. Where a particular bidder has an advantage such as reduced fees that bidder should be flagged to you know you are competing with someone with and advantage. If the auction house or any associate has any interest in an item ie owns it or wants to bid on it it should appear in the auction catalogue. If no interest is shown in the catalogue then they can not bid on it. These changes would make it a lot fairer.
As to the Fenton collection I don't get why I can buy an ms65 1964 penny off eBay for $30 but an ms66 sold for close to $500 inc commissions. I also don't get why a piece of plastic turns a $20 coin into a $500 coin. Either my Renniks and maccas are bigger works of fiction than I thought or the market is just nuts.
I do get the value add from stabbing and the premium for some sort of surety of grade but think this has gone overboard sometimes.
I wasn't aware the buyers premiums are negotiated lower. Is this true and how much do you know about it?
Eric
It is obvious that if the auction house wins an item they are not going to pay commissions to themselves so they have a 20% advantage. I have a customer that attends a lot of auctions and has told me of such arrangements afforded to a select regular big spenders at some auctions. Thinking about it it makes sense to an auction house. If as a vendors I can negotiate a lower rate because of the amount I throw through an auction, to attract large spenders why not offer a discount. Gives the buyer an advantage that can only push up the price. If the person with the advantage looses then high commission is paid by the buyer and vendor. If they win then the vendor pays a higher commission because price is pushed up.
Hmm, that does explain the uneconomical bidding activity of certain big dealers in auction. I always wondered how they'd make money buying what they buy, but if they're getting rebates, it all makes sense...
Eric
You probably can't do much about discounted fees but the rest of the rubbish that goes on could be fixed by fair trading complaints
It all sounds pretty unethical to me and the real losers are the clients that have supplied the coins that make the auction possible in the first place because of the exorbitant sellers fees driving away potential bidders and the subsequent low auction results.
There is NO way in the World that I would ever sell my coins via this auction house or any other auction company that practices this sort of unethical behaviour .:dodgy::dodgy::dodgy:
I sell a lot through roxburys. I have not sold through another auction house for years. I am generally happy with the prices I get through them. They also appear to be ethical for an auction house. As a buyer the I only do postal bidding an I am happy to have a red hot go with my buds at roxburys and have won a bit of stuff at less than my max bid. Most of the other auctions I just bottom feed because of what I have heard goes on. What it need is people complaining about the practices use to the auction house and fair trading else it will be a case of reading it over and over again with nothing being done about it.
I would have to say that Numisbid is the best internet bidding site that I have used.
You get a level playing field and there is NO shonky business along with NO buyers fees either.
Your coins are usually dispatched within a couple of days after the auction has ended.
The Universal coin company auctions are also pretty good but there is a substantial buyers fee and another surcharge for using paypal that dampens my enthusiasm when I bid quite a bit.
It always seems to take a while to get my coins from this Mob.
I have shied away from the larger auction houses because of the reports of the way that they are conducted by other collectors.
the other problem for smaller buyers like us is that we don't have a line of credit with the auction house and that facility can give the buyer a lot of freedom to buy now and pay later
guess it's called business
Quoteguess it's called business
Monkey Business :angel:
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93329' dateline='1469702285'Fenton needs to retire his sets.
Just checked my sets. Fenton Sets are retired. Everyone has gone up by one position.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='93535' dateline='1469942370'the other problem for smaller buyers like us is that we don't have a line of credit with the auction house and that facility can give the buyer a lot of freedom to buy now and pay later
guess it's called business
Yep,tricks of the Trade RG,a lot of back scratching goes on in the Auction Business.
More than one Aussie Dealer buy their RAM products thru a NZ Dealer so not only do they get Dealer Discount they also get no GST so the mug punters like ourselves are at least 20% behind before the game before it even starts.
yippie
so I will 16 instead of 17 on my partial set
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='93544' dateline='1469948571'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93329' dateline='1469702285'Fenton needs to retire his sets.
Just checked my sets. Fenton Sets are retired. Everyone has gone up by one position.
Except for timbertop. Sucks to be him! :P
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='93549' dateline='1469953075'Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='93544' dateline='1469948571'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93329' dateline='1469702285'Fenton needs to retire his sets.
Just checked my sets. Fenton Sets are retired. Everyone has gone up by one position.
Except for timbertop. Sucks to be him! :P
His GPA for sets will only go up ... well done to Timber Top...
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='93552' dateline='1469957245'Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='93549' dateline='1469953075'Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='93544' dateline='1469948571'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='93329' dateline='1469702285'Fenton needs to retire his sets.
Just checked my sets. Fenton Sets are retired. Everyone has gone up by one position.
Except for timbertop. Sucks to be him! :P
His GPA for sets will only go up ... well done to Timber Top...
Simply outstanding collection!
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/othersets.aspx?m=28864
Pretty inspirational!
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='93545' dateline='1469950913'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='93535' dateline='1469942370'the other problem for smaller buyers like us is that we don't have a line of credit with the auction house and that facility can give the buyer a lot of freedom to buy now and pay later
guess it's called business
Yep,tricks of the Trade RG,a lot of back scratching goes on in the Auction Business.
More than one Aussie Dealer buy their RAM products thru a NZ Dealer so not only do they get Dealer Discount they also get no GST so the mug punters like ourselves are at least 20% behind before the game before it even starts.
No advantage to by ram product from A NZ dealer. As an Aussie dealer I pay Gst but get a credit to in effect I pay no gst. If I buy wholesale from Nz I don't pay gst but I don't get a credit either so same net affect. I do however pay extra freight and surely the Nz dealer wants to make something out of it so I think a dealer buying mint product via nz has to be behind
I am afraid to say nothing in life is an equal playing field no matter what anyone thinks
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='93556' dateline='1469964150'No advantage to by ram product from A NZ dealer. As an Aussie dealer I pay Gst but get a credit to in effect I pay no gst. If I buy wholesale from Nz I don't pay gst but I don't get a credit either so same net affect. I do however pay extra freight and surely the Nz dealer wants to make something out of it so I think a dealer buying mint product via nz has to be behind
I am afraid to say nothing in life is an equal playing field no matter what anyone thinks
It was a Dealer that told me so there is a Quid in it somewhere there,i assumed it was the GST. Perhaps the Sydney based buyer can't claim a GST rebate and is using his relative in NZ to gain a edge.
With the payment and credit system the reality business pays 10% gst on profit from sales. Those not registered for gst pocket that. Yes buying overseas will save them but freight costs both ways would probably negate that.
No worries,i'm only repeating hearsay anyway but there is always some smartie trying to manipulate the exchange rate,Taxes etc.
I have asked once to have the bullion value declared as the value for custom. :) Saved 10%.