The Australian 1923 half penny in the link below is an altered date. It's been altered from a 1933. The giveaways are the curved base lettering on the reverse and the alignment of the 3 in the date. A genuine 1923 half penny has flat based lettering and the left of the 3 in the date aligns between two rim-beads. Clearly the example in the Heritage auction has curved base lettering and the left of the 3 aligns with a rim bead. So it's a fake.
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3021&lotNo=20026#91919191967
For more information you can take a look at this great article:
http://www.thesandpit.net/index.php?option=1923_halfpenny
Would have gotten me, very good fake then. Is the slab a fake as well.
Would have fooled me too. The 2 looks misaligned as well.
Well spotted Mark :dodgy: i will take that off my tracking list , :help: might be in order to heritage and NGC
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='5747' dateline='1357337763'Would have gotten me, very good fake then. Is the slab a fake as well.
No the slab isn't a fake. I just checked the NGC website. input the certification number and came up with a photo of this coin.
So NGC have slabbed this coin not realising that it is a fake.
The reverse lettering is the giveaway for me.That should be basic fake detection 101 for NGC so that
is very dissapointing
Is anyone game enough to advise NGC that this coin, that they have slabbed is a fake?
Quote from: 'bellyflorin' pid='5750' dateline='1357339140'Well spotted Mark :dodgy: i will take that off my tracking list , :help: might be in order to heritage and NGC
The credit for spotting it must go to another forum member who pointed it out to PPH.
This sounds like another really good reason why we need one/some coin graders that can slab here. I know this might still happen but I figure if it's aussie's doing aussie coins must be better than yanks that maybe know nothing about them except it looks ok..jesus I can do that :) This is one of the reasons why I want as much info as I can get on everything..I need the bad just as much as the good if not more :)
This is the sort of thing I've been concerned about..if it can make it past someone that's suppose to know, eg a pro grader, what chance do the novice like me have :(
Thanks Mark, it all helps to know what to look for :good:
The saying of "Buy the COIN and not the SLAB" jumps out at me with this coin and every coin in a slab :good:
Due dillegence is required by the buyer before buying raw or slabed coins, If buying big ticket coins make sure you KNOW what to look for and don't just simply take someone elses word that the coin is "Kosher".
Unless you have a trusted relationship with a dealer or seller dont fork out your hard earnt cash unless you are abolutly certain and happy with what you are paying for.
Education is the KEY and this site and others like it can only help.
I have scar tissue on my hands from being burnt with crap coins, Thankfully that is getting less frequent with the more I learn.
The graders at the TPG's are human and WILL make mistakes, It is up to you to study the coin and ignore the slab before any purchase to prevent the blisters from bad deals:yahoo:
:yahoo: the 1923 half has been withdrawn , there's another coin in that auction that NGC could have had a closer look :angel::whistle2:, i wish i was a rich man :mafia:
Quote from: 'bellyflorin' pid='5803' dateline='1357421561':yahoo: the 1923 half has been withdrawn , there's another coin in that auction that NGC could have had a closer look :angel::whistle2:, i wish i was a rich man :mafia:
Does people power work? I wonder how many of us notified Heritage that it was a fake? I did.
This was their response: 'We wanted to let you know that we received your inquiry. Due to the high volume of requests we receive, it may take us a few days to get back to you. Thank you for your patience.'
Well done by Heritage.
I just got a reply from Heritage.
QuoteHello Mr N*******,
Thank you for you observation. We have taken a look at the coin and agree that it is not right. The lot has been withdrawn from the sale.
Michael Peplinski
Numismatist â€" International Numismatics
.
Well done everyone, good result all-round.
It might only be a matter of time before it turns up in another auction. If the person who listed it with Heritage is the original purchaser, he/she must be well and truly ticked off at present. I'd be furious if I paid >$1000 for a coin only to find out later it's a fake. Regardless of where I bought it, I'd want my money back.
Would the owner/seller have any comeback with NGC? They are the ones that got it wrong, so someone is out of pocket due to their error, and someone else had a windfall I guess.
NGC may have a buy-back guarantee like PCGS. I am not sure.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='5809' dateline='1357427398'Would the owner/seller have any comeback with NGC? They are the ones that got it wrong, so someone is out of pocket due to their error, and someone else had a windfall I guess.
I had a look on the NGC website
QuoteNGC COIN GRADING GUARANTEE
All US and World coins and all tokens and medals certified and encapsulated by NGC are guaranteed authentic.
So it would seem that the owner would be able to get compensation.
I know I have been pretty vocal in my objections to slabbed coins but I never imagined this would happen.
The elephant in the room question is.........how many other altered date coins have been slabbed and are sitting in peoples collections?
Quote from: 'MobOfRoos' pid='5812' dateline='1357429235'The elephant in the room question is.........how many other altered date coins have been slabbed and are sitting in peoples collections?
Putting your attitude toward TPG coins aside there's a much bigger elephant in the room.
A very small percentage of Australian coins are TPG graded. And a lot of Australian dealers show no particular ability to spot skillful altered dates. So, how many other altered date coins are not slabbed and sitting in peoples collections?
And something else to think about, if NGC pay-out on this coin how many times do you think they will make this mistake again? I bet they will put an internal process in place to review ALL 1923 half pennies more closely to ensure that it never happens again.
A very small percentage of Australian coins are TPG graded. And a lot of Australian dealers show no particular ability to spot skillful altered dates. So, how many other altered date coins are not slabbed and sitting in peoples collections?
good point Mark :good:
And something else to think about, if NGC pay-out on this coin how many times do you think they will make this mistake again? I bet they will put an internal process in place to review ALL 1923 half pennies more closely to ensure that it never happens again.
I have grave doubts that a dealer would be willing to "Take a Hit" on a big ticket coin and simply pass it on to an unsuspecting punter.
We ALL have to take due care and suss out the coins we buy and stop relying on someone elses opinion all the time.
Great job on this you mob:yahoo:
At least that is one of the dodgy coins out of the loop.:dodgy:
Congratulations to all who assisted in this.! All take a gold star from the teachers desk.!:yahoo:
NGC will buy the coin in, it's part of their guarantee, besides they don't want an altered date floating around in an NGC slab - NGC is really at the mercy of the owner and the owner can use this to negotiate a favourable outcome.
The interesting thing here is the price difference between Krause, McDonald's and past sales histories. If NGC pay on (their own (http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldCoinPrices.aspx?category=39956&worldcoinid=115263&FromSearch=true)) Krause value someone will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='5839' dateline='1357450793'The interesting thing here is the price difference between Krause, McDonald's and past sales histories. If NGC pay on (their own (http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldCoinPrices.aspx?category=39956&worldcoinid=115263&FromSearch=true)) Krause value someone will be laughing all the way to the bank.
It would certainly be interesting to find out the outcome but I suspect NGC's settlement will include an NDA.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='5834' dateline='1357446181'NGC will buy the coin in, it's part of their guarantee, besides they don't want an altered date floating around in an NGC slab - NGC is really at the mercy of the owner and the owner can use this to negotiate a favourable outcome.
Would NGC be able to go back to the party who submitted the coin for grading? Surely these details would be on record.
Somewhere along the line, a profit has been made..
-rob
Quote from: 'bellyflorin' pid='5803' dateline='1357421561':yahoo: the 1923 half has been withdrawn , there's another coin in that auction that NGC could have had a closer look :angel::whistle2:, i wish i was a rich man :mafia:
hummm, wonder if anyone will write to HA complaining about that one?? (giggle)
We got a reply from NGC, they have seized the coin!
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='5996' dateline='1357637065'We got a reply from NGC, they have seized the coin!
WOW, I hope the poor bugger who graded it has retired by now
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='5996' dateline='1357637065'We got a reply from NGC, they have seized the coin!
This is interesting....
I am reading it like "they have stolen the coin"...
It is not theirs until some agreement has been arrived at with the owner.
Their exact words were:
"Thank you for the email. We were in contact with Heritage over the weekend about this and the coin has been removed from their auction. They are sending the coin back to us."
That leave a different impression (for me at least).
my apologies
Quote from: 'markn' pid='6027' dateline='1357680921'Their exact words were:
"Thank you for the email. We were in contact with Heritage over the weekend about this and the coin has been removed from their auction. They are sending the coin back to us."
i too got that email
Sounds to me like the vendor had the coin certified through Heritage.
The action does not indicate that it is not a real 1923
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1923-HALF-PENNY-/300884835677?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item460e223d5d
The King even looks like a monkey