http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36168863
Yeah, yeah, I know none of you 'get' digital currencies. But that's beside the point. The creators of both Bitcoin and Dogecoin were aussies, as are many leading lights in the crypto communities.
Kinda makes ya proud, eh?
Of course, you can bet that our beloved gubbermink will now be chasing him for a hefty slice of his $600 million or so worth of coins. :(
One thing I don't get is why an Australian named Craig Wright would choose an alias (Satoshi Nakamoto) in the first place. What's that about, what was he trying to hide, protecting his privacy, why the need for secrecy? Why spill the beans now?
You are correct, of course I don't get it. For me bit coins are located somewhere between the cloud and the Cayman Islands.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='88125' dateline='1462219901'What's that about, what was he trying to hide, protecting his privacy, why the need for secrecy? Why spill the beans now?
Very good questions.
The roots for the currency are deeply embedded in privacy. Some tin foil hat conspiracy theorists, a lot of libertarians, a couple handfuls of artful dodgers... basically people who don't want to be spied on. Sort of like we don't go bleating about our collections publicly if we know what's good for us.
Satoshi was a screen name, arguably shared by multiple people (Wright has given credit to another guy, now deceased) and used to discuss cryptography, and the possibilities for a currency built on mathematics, not trust. This eventually led to the Bitcoin White Paper, and the building of the early network. By the time that it mattered who he was, there were reasons not to divulge that. Like a million bitcoins which were appreciating rapidly.
If you had $600 million that nobody knew you had, would you be keen to divulge that? Especially if you didn't actually need the money? After all, every lottery winner goes public, right?
Why now? Well, there are two camps here. One is that as he claims, he was pushed into it, by increasing speculation affecting people around him. The other is that this is a scam, but nobody has yet put a case for what he might have to gain from it.
Me, I honestly don't care. Live founders are more of a liability than an asset I reckon. The guy who invented Dogecoin, Jackson Palmer (another aussie) was highly visible, and we've seen the downside of that. Every time he acted like a jerk, he damaged the community and the currency a little bit more. Eventually he spat the dummy and stormed off in a fit, and that was probably the best thing he could have done for us. Whether Wright IS Satoshi or not, the best thing he could do, and what he has said he wants to do, is simply fade into the background. The currency has enough problems, both technical and ego-driven, already, and doesn't need more dramas.
As for getting it, what's to get? You have a wallet, which is simply a number. There is a public ledger which records money as belonging to that wallet. By being the sole possessor of the private key which controls the wallet, you can spend that money. All cryptos are basically the same in this.
What varies is perceived value, and that is completely due to unrelated external forces. Which is no different to Gold, Silver, Iron, Oil, collectible coins, and just about everything else really. As with all those things, there are fortunes to be made and lost. The key being timing.
Oh, and remember the privacy bit? Nobody knows how much cryptocurrency you have, unless you tell them. In certain parts of the world, that can be a very, very big deal.
Thanks for the well-written explanation.
This bitcoin amazes me and I still see it as a someones' vivid imagination.
Our fiat currency/money is backed by what?
Bitcoin and its imitators are backed by what?
At least fiat currency backed by nothing will still have some trading value, (silver and gold too!) when the lights go off!
Digital currencies such as Bitcoin and others will have zero value when the lights go off!
As for privacy! There is no privacy trading crypto's or anything else in this world, as we all now know thanks to the whistleblowers.
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='88188' dateline='1462331954'Digital currencies such as Bitcoin and others will have zero value when the lights go off!
Touchwood, what are the lights these people speak of ......
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/catw.jpg)
Quote from: 'SULLA' pid='88188' dateline='1462331954'Digital currencies such as Bitcoin and others will have zero value when the lights go off!
Stop and think about what you're saying for a second.
When the lights go off, HOW, exactly? Sure, its a great-sounding throwaway phrase for fools, like so many others (don't even get me started on the Chemtrails tinfoil-hat mob), but the reality is that the lights are NOT going to get turned off, ever.
Sure, things can go wrong. Just ask Tasmania about the wisdom of dumping their gas turbine generators and relying on an easily-broken cable, for example. Or talk to my mate at Telstra about who in Sydney typed in the wrong command and shut down half their network. More than once.
But these are temporary outages. The internet was designed originally as a way of surviving a very real Nuclear Armaggedon. That never happened, and is unlikely to ever happen now. But short of wiping out humanity in its entirety (in which case nobody will care anyway), the internet isn't going away.
Oh, and even if it did, that wouldn't change anything really. Because mathematics is permanent and immutable. You can't flick a switch and make the number four disappear, can you?
Whereas you CAN flick a switch and say that from now on you can only withdraw 100 Euros a day, and you can't take money out of the country. Which has happened. Cyprus, Iceland, Greece, China, and various other places have excercised capital controls, and will continue to do so.
I really don't care whether you use or even understand cryptocurrencies. 99% of the world doesn't, and that's fine. But don't spread misinformation. Whether you like it or not, you WILL be using cryptos in the near future. You won't have any control, and no choice, because those currencies will be centrally issued and controlled, and
certainly not transparent. Me, I'm much happier having some say, which I have with the decentralised cryptos like Bitcoin, Dogecoin and many of the rest.
QuoteWhether you like it or not, you WILL be using cryptos in the near future.
I doubt that this will be the case as the "Fiat" currency in use at the moment is far easier for the Government to control and manipulate :angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='88215' dateline='1462356147'I doubt that this will be the case as the "Fiat" currency in use at the moment is far easier for the Government to control and manipulate
That won't change. It will still be fiat, but a crypto version which they will issue and manipulate. Every central bank (and every other bank too) on the planet is playing with this right now.
Basically, they want to steal the technology and development the crypto community has created, without relinquishing any of the power, or giving any benefits to their citizens. The big win in this will be the elimination of the massive costs involved in issuing, moving, counting, protecting and destroying physical money. A win which they'll pocket, of course.
I live and work in the real world and get paid by real money and pay real tax
Very disturbing how some people are addicted to their computer Virtual world
I was listening to a PM story on FinTechs and the budget. Apparently the budget has provided some money specifically for the development of block chain technology. I wonder if the current PM is a fan.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='88235' dateline='1462392122'I wonder if the current PM is a fan.
He is, yes. Which doesn't mean the aims of what they're up to are honourable.
Speaking of honourable, I see Chris Wright has taken a powder. Again. Curiouser and curiouser... ;)
An item on News Radio this morning re Craig Wright backtrack:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-06/bitcoin-craig-wright-backtracks-on-promise-for-new-proof/7389242
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='88304' dateline='1462480932'An item on News Radio this morning re Craig Wright backtrack:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-06/bitcoin-craig-wright-backtracks-on-promise-for-new-proof/7389242
Congrats on your 500th post Mate :yahoo:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='88378' dateline='1462675692'Congrats on your 500th post Mate :yahoo:
Thanks very much, I'm just getting started. :thank_you:
24,518 Bitcoins for sale by auction:
http://www.afr.com/technology/ernst--young-16-million-bitcoin-auction-20160527-gp53i0
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='89668' dateline='1464641027'24,518 Bitcoins for sale by auction:
Handy if you've got a lazy million or so lying around. Though I wouldn't expect the current prices to hold. I sold at the peak, and bought them back at about $60 less a day later. :)
Also, I'm really surprised anyone could be dumb enough to have their coins siezed...
"What's your private key?"
"I have no idea. My hard drive crashed and I lost it! Bite me!"
:angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='89689' dateline='1464669151'Also, I'm really surprised anyone could be dumb enough to have their coins siezed...
"What's your private key?"
"I have no idea. My hard drive crashed and I lost it! Bite me!"
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/clink.jpg)
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='89696' dateline='1464676976'
Well, no, actually, you don't. Nobody can be expected to remember a key made up of seemingly random characters. So if you're clever about how you hide it, it doesn't exist, and never did. OTOH, its like the guy who puts his banknote collection in a shoebox with a big red label that reads "VALUABLE BANKNOTES - DO NOT STEAL!" and leaves it on the doorstep... fools and their money deserve to be separated. ;)
If the government thought that Bitcoins were a valid/genuine form of currency I imagine they would simply keep them instead of auctioning them off.
If this was a stash of pounds stirling, US dollars or any other form of currency they seize from time to time they would simply have kept it :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='89702' dateline='1464693792'If the government thought that Bitcoins were a valid/genuine form of currency I imagine they would simply keep them instead of auctioning them off.
Governments can't afford to legitimise any currency not under government control. Think about it...
You're the President of Troutistan, and you can create money at will. You can choose how much to create, and when. Whatever path you choose, be it high, low or middle, your hand is firmly on the steering wheel, and you can effectively bribe the people who keep you in power at will. Live Long and Prosper.
Now, along comes an alternative that doesn't rely on your say-so to exist. It relies on mathematics, is completely trust-free, and impossible to control. It can move anywhere in the world more or less instantly, knows no borders, and is moderately anonymous. If you acknowledge it as an actual currency, you lose your power base. ALL of your citizens can choose to conduct their trade using that alternative and not your state-issued Troutskis. Worse, YOU have to conduct your trade with it too, because the Troutski will very soon be challenging Zimbabwean Dollars as the most worthless paper on the planet. Your ability to control your own economy has evaporated, and before long you're going to be bouncing along some back road in the back of a manure truck to freedom if you're lucky, and swinging in the breeze if you're not.
However...
Everyone with two brain cells to rub together can concede that a cryptocurrency is superior to fiat on every level. The issue is control, not reliability. Control over its creation, movement, possession and value. Do the pros outweigh the cons? Yes, if you remove the power and control considerations. Cryptos don't need to be manufactured, moved, guarded and so on, so the savings are enormous. Think about the true cost of moving our beloved bits of metal around from hand to hand. All that goes away if you're just dealing with numbers.
So, enter the state-issued crypto. Rest assured, these are coming. The computers which will create them and record their movement won't be owned by you, me and anyone else who wants to play the game. They'll be government computers not subject to any scrutiny. Which of course is a wonderful situation to be in, right? Government computer systems are very much in our best interests... just ask the FBI, NSA, CIA, ASIO, ATO, etc, etc, etc.
Way back when we first started discussing cryptos, I said that they were inevitable, and that we could get used to them sooner or later, but we couldn't ignore them. And you lot laughed. Now, we have everybody and his dog jumping on the private blockchain bandwagon, and we're going to see not the one or two market leaders or even the 600 or so alternatives. We're going to see every single entity running its own private system. Tens or even hundreds of thousands of them, all under tight government controls of course.
And my question is, what happens when they fall over? When the company goes bust or the government shuts down or privatises an entity? When the liquidators flog off the computers, who's going to maintain their beloved private blockchains?
A recipe for disaster, methinks. But one we'll have no say in, and won't be able to avoid. If only we'd collectively seen the light and adopted proper, open cryptos when we had the chance. ;)
:laugh2: Here in "Troutistan" the Treasurer Mrs trout insists on the currency from another foreign power (Aust gov) for all commerce and trade conducted here exclusively.
If this currency was to become unviable there is a contingency plan to use various Silver and Gold round pieces of metal to facilitate trade :ok:
What about your body :blush2:
^^^^^I truly love Trout's response^^^^^^
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='89725' dateline='1464742262'^^^^^I truly love Trout's response^^^^^^
HeHe
I enjoyed typing that :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='89720' dateline='1464738723'What about your body :blush2:
Not much value left in that Mate :)
In reality we already have a system of currency that has been created out of thin air, is backed only by a promise and even our coins have little intrinsic value now.
However this has worked rather well since 1910 and I can't see any value in reinventing the wheel with crypto's as these mostly have to be converted back to AUD or another currency to facilitate a trade anyway :ok:
There are many many different ways of storing wealth that are far more secure and viable than crypto's :good:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='89729' dateline='1464751562'mostly have to be converted back to AUD or another currency to facilitate a trade anyway
And that is exactly what everyone in the crypto community is working to change. The problem right now is that:
a) Prices are tied to fiat, so that with the big spike in BTC's price of about 10% the other day for example, the price was fluctuating minute by minute.
b) There are costs involved in trading. Both negligible fees for the actual transfers, and heftier middlemen fees for the facilitators. Kinda like sending fiat overseas, where the fee can be more than the amount sent.
c) Immediately cashing out hurts the market price and amplifies volatility.
So the answer is to create closed loops, where you buy something for crypto, the vendor pays his suppliers in crypto, who pay the manufacturers, who pay the workers who buy stuff for crypto. You know, just like fiat. ;)
And just for the record, I'm not a huge fan of Bitcoin as the basis for all this. It has far too many technical problems making it a rather poor working currency. That's why I much prefer Dogecoin, but even there, it won't scale to millions of active users, let alone billions. That's still a problem to be solved once there's a critical mass stretching the systems to their limits.
---
So, does The Rt. Hon. Treasurer, Mrs Trout allow you a government stipend, or does your allowance come under the control of the Troutistan Treasury Department? Not to be confused with the Troutistan Taxation Office, as the TTO taketh what the TTD giveth. ;)
I came across this in my bedtime reading last night;
QuoteMoney is a construct, an agreement among people. Wealth is what we can actually use: food; shelter; clothes; transport; access to clean air, water and light - these last three increase the rent on an apartment because everyone knows their true value.
David Suzuki, "Naked Ape to Superspecies"
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='89777' dateline='1464826378'I came across this in my bedtime reading last night
I like your taste in reading material. David's a seriously cool dude. Even if he did sort of stuff up on Q&A a couple years ago. :angel:
One of my favourite quotes:
"We're in a giant car heading towards a brick wall and everyone's arguing over where they're going to sit."Sounds an awful lot like soon-to-be-ex PM Mal, eh? :)
I was reading about Blockchain in an article on ABC News. It stated that it (the blockchain) contains a complete record of every transaction ever made (and that it is made public). Is that correct? Would it become rather large and unwieldy, is it published online somewhere?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90678' dateline='1465929074'Would it become rather large and unwieldy, is it published online somewhere?
Yes, that's right. That's kind of the whole point. EVERY node must have a complete copy of the blockchain in order to work. The blocks are transferred between nodes using a peer-to-peer protocol, making it immune to tampering by any central authority.
Because it IS so large
(Dogecoin is around 17Gb now, and Bitcoin is 86Gb or so.. check https://bitinfocharts.com/ for stats), many people use 'lite' clients, despite their limitations. These clients only download needed blocks, not the entire chain, and they don't participate as peers in the network.
I've been arguing for two years now that this is our achilles heel. When I started, the Dogecoin chain was 4Gb, and even that was problematic for my limited bandwidth. While I still have a full client for now
(the next mandatory update will almost certainly see me orphaned, even the current release required the devs to build a special version for me), I've stopped using it, preferring to use 'paper' wallets which exist only as keys, not as a piece of software.
The credit card networks each handle around 2,000 transactions per second baseload, and have been stress-tested to over 56,000. The current crypto networks can't handle that load. Bitcoin has a ten minute block time. Dogecoin has one minute blocks, and both currently use 1Mb blocks
(there's a huge and divisive debate over in BTC-land about block sizes). You can fit about six transactions into 1k, so that's a theoretical 6,000 transactions per minute for Doge, which although ten times more than Bitcoin, is nowhere near Visa's 120,000. You can check our actual transaction graph here: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-doge.html
Note that most of the traffic isn't on the real blockchain anyway, but on private ledgers run by exchanges, Dogetipbot and the like. These private chains keep traffic off the network and help enormously in terms of speed, responsiveness and cost reduction. Its only necessary to hit the blockchain
(and pay miners fees) when moving funds in or out of these private services.
Anyway, I don't think it can possibly scale if we ever got mass adoption. Of course, we could make changes, prune the tree and the like, but even so, its a problem.
IBM also think along the same lines. That's why their IoT blockchain will work differently, discarding data as it ages. After all, how long do you need to keep records of when you turned your lights on, right?
Thanks for the explanation, it was very thorough as usual. I looked at the statistics site, that was informative.
So, if there mass adoption the size of the chain could rise to terabytes or even petabytes?
What is a node?
Does the entire chain transmit across the p2p network or is it like a backup where only the part that has changed needs to be updated?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90684' dateline='1465934126'So, if there mass adoption the size of the chain could rise to terabytes or even petabytes?
Yes.
QuoteWhat is a node?
The software which comprises the network, distributes blocks and submits transactions. In the case of Dogecoin, the dogecoind daemon, QT/Core wallet client and the like. Standard implementations of the wallet client are only partial nodes, as they have at most 8 peer connections. This can be opened up to make them full nodes, but the bandwidth can get a tad excessive.
QuoteDoes the entire chain transmit across the p2p network or is it like a backup where only the part that has changed needs to be updated?
Every block must be on every node for the system to work. If a node comprises a wallet, then the entire blockchain must be present. However if it is a full node with no wallet, then it can discard blocks to conserve resources. Every new block must be disseminated to every full or partial node, and this is done via p2p. However, one can start with a bootstrap file, which is a snapshot at a given time, then catch up the missing blocks. Once created, blocks cannot ever change.
Also, in addition to the blockchain, a node also has a list of every UTXO outstanding, which is maintained in RAM. These Unspent Transaction Outputs contain the coins, and every coin must live in one. It is critical for network health to reduce these UTXOs to a minimum, by having fewer outputs than inputs to a transaction. Another thing I've been harping on about for years. ;)
I'm close if not beyond the limit of my understanding now but I'm happy with the concept since most of my transactions are already electronic.
So is a node the same as a node in a p2p network? I've used BT for years so I have a basic understanding of how that works.
I'm assuming if you own bitcoins you must have a wallet (I'm using bitcoin as an example, I realise there are multiple types).
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90688' dateline='1465943748'So is a node the same as a node in a p2p network?
Pretty much.
QuoteI'm assuming if you own bitcoins you must have a wallet (I'm using bitcoin as an example, I realise there are multiple types).
Yup. But it doesn't have to be a piece of software.
See, wallets are simply 256-bit numbers. With a couple of ID and checksum bytes added of course. And Base-58 encoded to make them less unwieldy.
http://dogedirectory.azurewebsites.net/ shows you a bunch of keys, and the derived public keys to go with them.
No need to go into the hows, but suffice to say that the private key is factored to produce a public address
(well, several actually, but no matter). Consider this:
Two prime numbers multiplied together produce a number divisible only by itself, 1, and the two numbers which produced it. So 3x5=15, and 15 can be divided only by 1, 3, 5 and 15. This is the underlying principle behind public-key cryptography, though of course the numbers are massively bigger, and would take billions of years to brute-force. But generating them is trivial, and deriving the public key is also trivial.
There are wallet generators which run in web browsers. I have one on my page at http://fulvio55.altervista.org which does about 90 currencies. The output from these generators can be physical, printed paper wallets, like these:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=dogecoin+paper+wallet&num=100&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilvOmS5qnNAhVYfVIKHWrqDu4Q_AUICCgB
or it can just be lists of keys. You can generate as many of these as you want. After all, as you saw from that database, there are 904625697166532776746648320380374280100293470930272690489102837043110636675 PAGES of keys to choose from!
Any wallet address can receive coins, assuming its valid of course. There is a checksum to catch transcription errors. And there are websites which allow "sweeping" wallets, such as http://dogechain.info and http://redeempaper.com, as well as web-based services which allow importing of wallets. Note that third-party services are inherently risky, as you give up control of your coins to someone who may not be honest, or who may be compromised by external players.
I actually have the bulk of my coins in "paper" wallets. I manage the keys basically through text files (well hidden of course), and I use HTML pages like this example: http://fulvio55.altervista.org/test/sample.html to keep track of them all. Note that the three V8SuperDoge wallets on that sample page are real. They were used to raise funds for the sponsorship of Jack LeBrocq's car at Bathurst.
Thanks again Fulvio for taking the time. OK, I think we covered nodes. Now, wallets, I lost you at "Base-58 encoded" which I did not understand.
I keep getting distracted by gravitational waves from colliding black holes and 1920 pennies which are both equally hard to follow.
I knew there was a connection between prime numbers and cryptography but that's as far as it goes.
Let's say I wanted to transfer some money from my PayPal account to BitCoin, where would I start?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90784' dateline='1466016086'I lost you at "Base-58 encoded" which I did not understand.
OK, you know how our standard-issue numbers are base-10? And binary numbers are base-2? Well, you can work in any base you like. Base-16 is hexadecimal, Base-8 is octal. And Base-64 is a standard encoding for turning binary data into ASCII so it can be transmitted as text. You see this in your emails as MIME blocks, which comprise a-z, A-Z, 0-9 and two special characters. To quote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base64,
A quote from Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan (be aware of spaces between lines):
Man is distinguished, not only by his reason, but by this singular passion from
other animals, which is a lust of the mind, that by a perseverance of delight
in the continued and indefatigable generation of knowledge, exceeds the short
vehemence of any carnal pleasure.
is represented as a byte sequence of 8-bit-padded ASCII characters encoded in MIME's Base64 scheme as follows:
TWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZWFzb24sIGJ1dCBieSB0aGlz
IHNpbmd1bGFyIHBhc3Npb24gZnJvbSBvdGhlciBhbmltYWxzLCB3aGljaCBpcyBhIGx1c3Qgb2Yg
dGhlIG1pbmQsIHRoYXQgYnkgYSBwZXJzZXZlcmFuY2Ugb2YgZGVsaWdodCBpbiB0aGUgY29udGlu
dWVkIGFuZCBpbmRlZmF0aWdhYmxlIGdlbmVyYXRpb24gb2Yga25vd2xlZGdlLCBleGNlZWRzIHRo
ZSBzaG9ydCB2ZWhlbWVuY2Ugb2YgYW55IGNhcm5hbCBwbGVhc3VyZS4=
The problem with using this encoding for wallets is that there are characters which are easily confused. Again to quote the Base58 wiki:
Compared to Base64, the following similar-looking letters are omitted: 0 (zero), O (capital o), I (capital i) and l (lower case L) as well as the non-alphanumeric characters + (plus) and / (slash). In contrast to Base64, the digits of the encoding don't line up well with byte boundaries of the original data. For this reason, the method is well-suited to encode large integers, but not designed to encode longer portions of binary data.So the alphabet used for crypto addresses is
123456789ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijkmnopqrstuvwxyzQuoteLet's say I wanted to transfer some money from my PayPal account to BitCoin, where would I start?
You start with a wallet. Which can be a client such as Core/QT, or a light client, or a web service such as block.io, or a paper wallet you generate yourself, or a wallet from an exchange or other middleman. The easiest way to get started is with Dogecoin's tipbot on Reddit. Just register on Reddit, go to the Dogecoin subreddit at http://reddit.com/r/dogecoin and say hi. In all likelihood, people will tip you, provided you don't look like a scammer. This will give you an account with /u/dogetipbot, and a wallet to go with it, as well as a few coins to start you off. Mention me, /u/Fulvio55 so I see it
(or comment on any of my numerous posts/comments and introduce yourself) and I'll throw a few coins your way.
To get substantial quantities of coins, you need an exchange, which will also give you wallets for whatever currencies you trade. If you've looked at my page, you would have seen the referrals down near the bottom. https://www.coinspot.com.au/?affiliate=flv is CoinSpot, which is here in Berwick and run by a guy I know. You can deposit and withdraw cash
(though thanks to the banks and their BS policies, the process is now a little convoluted) and use it to buy from the market. You will also want accounts at http://www.btc38.com/trade_en.html?mk_type=btc&btc38_trade_coin_name=doge which is a large Chinese exchange where you can trade BTC or CNY pairs for a limited selection of coins, and https://poloniex.com/ where you can trade just about anything.
Once you have an exchange(s) account(s), you need to get some currency into it(/them) and start trading. It works like any other market. People place bids and offers, and other people buy or sell to/from those people, with the exchange taking a tiny cut. You can deposit/withdraw cryptos to/from any wallet, but fiat currencies depend on exchange and local government rules, with the US exchanges being the toughest due to their KYC/AML laws.
You can also use a variety of middlemen such as shapeshift.io to instantly swap currencies, including via Paypal, but their fees are pretty horrendous IMO.
Oh, you will see lots of people discussing mining, which is how new coins are created. Ignore them. That ship sailed years ago, and it is next to impossible now to make enough to cover electricity costs. I run a batch of Gridseeds:
(http://cryptomining-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/gridseed-5-chip-gold-scrypt-asic.jpg)
which I've modded to cut power requirements to an absolute minimum, and they earn me about a third of a cent a day each worth of Litecoin, which I then sell/swap on the exchanges. If it wasn't for the fact the machines are long since paid for and the power free
(saves on heating costs), I wouldn't bother.
And of course, you can always get coins by selling stuff or working for them. Everything from pizzas to computers and even coins can be bought/sold for cryptos. There have even been cars and houses sold this way. :)
Thanks again Fulvio. I'm bogged down with 1957 pennies this morning. The idea of a base 58 (rather than base 64) surprised me but if its to do with ascii chars and then I can dig it.
OK, I will start with a wallet.
"The easiest way to get started is with Dogecoin's tipbot on Reddit. Just register on Reddit, go to the Dogecoin subreddit at http://reddit.com/r/dogecoin and say hi."
I did that. Ack! Its in Russian.
"To get substantial quantities of coins, you need an exchange, which will also give you wallets for whatever currencies you trade."
I'm not sure I want to trade. First I want to learn how it works but I'd also like to actually use it for transactions like making donations etc.
"Once you have an exchange(s) account(s), you need to get some currency into it(/them) and start trading."
So, to transfer from my PayPal account I will need to do that.
EDIT: Maybe we should continue this in another forum?
https://redd.it/4ofdmw
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90887' dateline='1466107822'I did that. Ack! Its in Russian.
Huh? Well, go to https://www.reddit.com/prefs/ and set the language. :)
QuoteFirst I want to learn how it works but I'd also like to actually use it for transactions like making donations etc.
Go to the info menu at the top of /r/dogecoin, just below the header, and read the 'Wallet ELI5' (Explain Like I'm 5).
QuoteSo, to transfer from my PayPal account I will need to do that.
If you don't want much, you can give me some cash and I'll buy you some. I've got a fair pile in my CoinSpot account.
QuoteMaybe we should continue this in another forum?
https://redd.it/4ofdmw
Just tossed you a small tip there to get you started. You should also look in /r/dogetipbot, and http://dogetipbot.com (log in with Reddit) to link your accounts.
The reason I've kept this thread going is I know there are a couple of other guys interested, so it was as much for their benefit as yours. :)
Looking in and learning.
The Russian thing went away. I got two free gifts, now I need a wallet to put them in?
I found the info menu at the top of /r/dogecoin, and I'm reading the 'Wallet ELI5' (Explain Like I'm 5). I'm tempted to post it here since its not too long.
I got your tip and one other from someone who said they knew you. Next I will visit http://dogetipbot.com to link my accounts.
I don't want to invest a lot to begin with maybe say $200 but I would like to try it myself rather than send you $200 and get you to do it for me.
:yahoo: I made it to https://dogetipbot.com/dashboard and found the peoplma (D16.00) and fulvio55 (D98.00). So now I have D114.00. :yahoo:
For anyone watching at home D114.00 = approx. 2 US cents.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90932' dateline='1466151390'The Russian thing went away. I got two free gifts, now I need a wallet to put them in?
You already have a wallet. The tipbot creates it for you as soon as you accept a tip, and its tied to your account. You can see the address if you send it a +history command, or on the website, along with all your transactions.
You can tip 3 ways:
• In a comment, to the person whose comment or post you're replying to.
• To a specific user, using @, as in @Fulvio55
• To an external Doge wallet, Dxxxxxxxx. This is just like a withdrawal, only public.
QuoteI got your tip and one other from someone who said they knew you.
Yeah, /u/peoplma is one of the mods on /r/Dogecoin. BTW, /u/42points who is also a mod is over in Bendigo. He's the guy who did most of the custom CSS for the page.
Quotemaybe say $200
That's rather a lot in the current market. I fully expect prices to fall after the Bitcoin halving, since that's what happened with Dogecoin and Litecoin. The current prices are all speculation I think, which is why I'm selling now to buy back later. I would think five bucks would be more than enough to play with, since there's no limit on trades. To give you an idea, I'm trading 10,000 doge parcels on BTC38, whereas I used to do 100,000 lots on Cryptsy before they imploded.
QuoteFor anyone watching at home D114.00 = approx. 2 US cents.
Yup. Which is what makes it fun. You can play to your hearts content and it won't bankrupt you. ;)
BTW, the minimum tip is 4 Doge, so go ahead and spread it around a little. See if you can ignite a tipwar... they're great fun. :)
Oh, I forgot to mention that BTC38 pays interest on Doge. Its pretty tiny, but I get like 10 a day, for basically nothing. Also, on Poloniex you can use your coins for short term margin lending, a day or two for maybe 5%.
I can see now that I have looked at dogetipbot that I already have a wallet. I will try $5 as per your suggestion although I notice that at least one of the online donations I want to make only take BTC so I might eventually get me some of those but for now I will keep going with Doge.
So my next step is to buy say D25,000.00 from somewhere?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90935' dateline='1466155337'only take BTC so I might eventually get me some
And this is where the exchanges come in. Trade one for the other. :)
QuoteSo my next step is to buy say D25,000.00 from somewhere?
CoinSpot is probably the go. Use the referral link I gave you earlier, and deposit some cash. Then you can buy Doge, BTC or whatever.
The reason you also want the other exchanges is that CS no longer do BTC pairs, only AUD.
I've opened an account with CoinSpot. I have not transferred any money yet. Now I want to see my dogetipbot wallet and add to it.
"We strongly advise you turn on 2FA to further protect your account."
Seems like a good idea - I don't mind giving them my mobile number but do they really need my drivers license?
(http://i.imgur.com/3z9IDE6.jpg)
Do I need a wallet for each currency? So, if I want to have Doge and BTC and transfer between them, I need two wallets
Enticing isn't it? Come frolic with me! Where is that, Fulvio's beach house on Port Phillip bay?
(https://www.coinspot.com.au/public/img/beach-winning.jpg)
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91044' dateline='1466283393'Now I want to see my dogetipbot wallet and add to it.
So, this is you then? :)
19/06/2016 r*********@gmail.com $0.00 $0.00
If you look on your Dashboard, you have your wallets on the left. In there you will find the addresses for the wallets CS give you. I strongly reccommend you have a look at http://fulvio55.altervista.org/test/sample.html and if it suits you, use it as a template to keep track of your wallet addresses. Note that the three V8 accounts listed are real wallets, the rest are empty throwaways generated for the excercise.
If you withdraw (well, once you have coins TO withdraw), you will need to provide a wallet for the withdrawal to go to. Yes, the tipbot address is fine if this is where you want them to go. You can also try withdrawing (or tipping an address, same thing, really) from the tipbot to your CS wallet. If you do that, then after a while check the CS wallet, you will see coins move out of it to cold storage (a paper wallet, effectively) for safekeeping. Nobody leaves coins in hot wallets they don't have to... too many hackers out there. ;)
Quote"We strongly advise you turn on 2FA to further protect your account."
Meh, I never have. But then I don't run windoze or android either. ;)
As for the licence number, ask Russell (email should be at the bottom of the page).
QuoteDo I need a wallet for each currency? So, if I want to have Doge and BTC and transfer between them, I need two wallets
Yes, each coin is standalone, with its own blockchain, addressing conventions (1=BTC, D=Doge, L=LTC, etc) and services. If you plan on using others, yes, you'll need to generate wallets for them. If you're just trading, you can just use the exchange wallets..
QuoteWhere is that, Fulvio's beach house on Port Phillip bay?
Shhhhhh!! WE don't want AJ to know! I'd never get rid of him! :angel:
Yep that would be me. I'm happy to try your template, you showed it to me before. I will try doing a transfer with CS and report back here. I'm not going to worry about that extra security level for the time being.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91071' dateline='1466320358'Yep that would be me. I'm happy to try your template, you showed it to me before. I will try doing a transfer with CS and report back here.
Try moving some coins there and back. Get a feel for the amount of time involved. Keep in mind Bitcoin takes AT BEST an hour, and has been out to a week or more.
We're supersonic by comparison. ;)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='91069' dateline='1466317611'Shhhhhh!! WE don't want AJ to know! I'd never get rid of him! :angel:
:dodgy: not cool man, not cool at all :P
And here I was thinkin you loved me but obviously I was wrong :cray:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='91075' dateline='1466326822'And here I was thinkin you loved me but obviously I was wrong :cray:
Well, yeah... but, lettin' you take over the beach shack? :dodgy:
From what I can tell, I cannot make an initial deposit without either sending CS a copy of my license or
"Take a photo of yourself holding a picture of your secret code. Make sure the photo is high quality and has complete view of your face. Take the photo facing straight, not on any angle, just like your licence photo."
I'm not exactly sure why but I don't feel like sending them an image of my license or my face. Might have to find another way. They have my mobile number and I have verified by SMS and my email has also been verified.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91082' dateline='1466362255'"Take a photo of yourself holding a picture of your secret code. Make sure the photo is high quality and has complete view of your face. Take the photo facing straight, not on any angle, just like your licence photo."
UGH. That's new. Its pretty standard for US exchanges, cos of the AML and KYC laws. And the europeans and asians comply too, but we never used to.
OK, so that's not gonna work for you to get cash in. I'm still happy to help, or use a service like shapeshift or weselldoges and the like. They're dearer, but no ID required.
At first, a couple of days ago, I thought it was optional. Having a think about it I might send them a mugshot holding the code and see what happens.
EDIT:
"Upload Complete, It may take a few business days to be verified."
So, I sent them the photo but how can they be sure it was me holding the code?
I wonder if they want the mugshot and the copy of my license? It does not actually say that but I beginning to think they have a very sophisticated facial recognition algorithm which will correlate the two photos.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91090' dateline='1466386397'beginning to think they have a very sophisticated facial recognition algorithm which will correlate the two photos.
Nah. Russell just needs to cover his arse in case the feds come knocking. He'll look at the two pics and say "yeah, that's him" and file it away, probably never to be seen again.
FWIW, I went through this process from the other side when we were setting up the Dogecoin Foundation. For a few hours, I WAS the foundation, and I had to verify the identity of the incoming board members. So I asked them for the same pics and satisfied myself that yes, that was them before signing away control.
Its a Brave New World, I'm afraid. I just wish I knew exactly who to blame, cos I liked it better 50 years ago. :(
I take it you know Russell. I have not sent a copy of my license as yet because that is my sticking point. As you say its a brave new world but my license contains a lot of personal information. Name, address, D.O.B. and the license numbers. Nowhere else in the process have they asked for any of that info. I wonder if they (or is it just Russell) will accept a copy with those details redacted?
EDIT: except for my name, they did ask for that but not my full name.
I went ahead and uploaded a redacted copy of my license.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91124' dateline='1466444082'I went ahead and uploaded a redacted copy of my license.
I just emailed your comment to Russell. Lets see what he says.
CoinSpot ID Verified
We have successfully verified your documents and approved your CoinSpot account.
You can immediately deposit funds into your account to purchase Bitcoin.
Warm Regards,
Russell
Founder and CEO www.coinspot.com.au
OK, now I have an account sorted. For my next trick I will make a deposit.
"We are only accepting funds via online bank transfer using POLi Payments"
https://www.polipayments.com/
"POLi Payments Pty Ltd (formerly known as Centricom) is an online payments company based in Melbourne, Australia. It is the developer and provider of POLi, an online payment system that is used by merchants and consumers in Australia and New Zealand. POLi Payments has been acquired by SecurePay Holdings, a fully owned subsidiary of Australia Post."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POLi_Payments
I'm guessing that CoinSpot has some kind of deal with POLi Payments but is that the brave new world? Seems more like the same old commercial imperatives are at work. This kind of vertical integration stifles choice and is not particularly innovative which is not what I was hoping for when I decided to dip my toe into the crypto-currency waters.
Nevertheless, I will soldier on. Mustn't grumble.
Now, how did they know I was with CBA? Its going to take a giant leap to get me to enter my password into that box.
(http://i.imgur.com/zU3lc9s.jpg)
QuoteNow, how did they know I was with CBA? Its going to take a giant leap to get me to enter my password into that box.
Don't walk away from this r9453, RUN Mate. :ok:
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91319' dateline='1466707884'is that the brave new world?
Poli is an Australia Post operation. And we all know AP's track record for sticking to standards. I can't use Bpay to pay for my PO Box, because they have PostBillPay. I can't use this new Digital Mailbox they gave me because of their arcane requirements. I just had a massive brawl over one of their prepaid Visa cards. And AJ's battles are legendary. ;)
That said, yes, Poli is legit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POLi_Payments
As for why its the only option, blame the banks.
Last year, when the banks decided that cryptos were an inevitable part of the future, they of course wanted to control it, because monopolies are like that. So they did two things:
1. They started their own, in-house, development of private blockchains they could completely control.
and
2 They cancelled all accounts associated with cryptocurrencies.
Every exchange in the country suddenly found itself unable to take bank deposits. Some moved overseas, because it is, after all, the internet. Some closed down. And CoinSpot found an alternative.
Brave New World? No, just stuffed up old world. Bring on the Banking Royal Commission and put these bastards in their rightful place (behind bars, with any luck), I say!
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91320' dateline='1466712016'Now, how did they know I was with CBA?
Who knows with Australia Post? Maybe you've used it with them before. Maybe they just assume. *shrug*
FWIW, my main banking is with CUA (https://www.cua.com.au/tools-and-services/support/branch-locator). Apart from the high-interest at-call accounts they offer, they will also give you extra accounts, with cards, if you ask for them. So I set one up, stuck $2 in it, and that's what I use for online purchases. I just transfer in the amount I need to cover it, and they can't overdraw me.
I highly recommend this approach (both a secondary account and CUA) to everyone. Because we've already seen what a pack of pricks the banks are, ESPECIALLY CBA. :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0ochx16Dg
I've been thinking about opening a new account with a non-CBA bank. Watch this space.
Too easy:
Were just getting in touch to let you know we've received your CUA Everyday 55+ Account application.
Before we open your new account, we first need to verify your identity. We'll then send you an email to confirm your account is open and your CUA Visa Debit Card has been ordered.
If you have any questions we're happy to help - just call us on 133 282 or drop into your local branch.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91339' dateline='1466738067'I've been thinking about opening a new account with a non-CBA bank. Watch this space.
Well, you really need accounts with all of them if you're going to noodle. But for value, non-banks are way ahead of the pack, because they're there to benefit their members, not institutional investors.
CUA is member-owned. While you don't have to be a member to have an account, everyone is entitled to buy $10 worth of shares. Compare that to the share register of any of the banks. :(
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91339' dateline='1466738067'need to verify your identity.
Standard 100-points the gov't demands. Easiest way is pop into a branch. Otherwise its snail mail. :(
I knew that thread started by Jeff was gonna get hijacked.
I had a quick look for this last night but could not find a suitable download, this is a reminder for me to have another look today:
Bitcoin.The.End.of.Money.as.We.Know.It.2015.mp4
I finally got another bank account which was another saga. Now where was i?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='92837' dateline='1468870453'I finally got another bank account which was another saga. Now where was i?
Speaking of banks, check this out: https://www.wb21.com/
I have no idea yet if they're legit, but they sound interesting enough to do some further digging.
Jeff's threads always get hijacked. Which is appropriate, given he's as guilty as the rest of us. ;)
Really I only have myself to blame.
I've got a couple of those newspaper thingies somewhere.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='92840' dateline='1468873743'Really I only have myself to blame.
Ah, so we're in agreement? :angel:
I listen to ABC podcasts on my iPad and this one came up last night:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/themoney/blockchain/7888498
Apart from that I haven't got much further with this. I had to increase my balance in the new bank a/c I set up to $500 in order to stop them charging me a $2 monthly fee.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/bitcoin/8797916