I only discovered this coin existed today.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/625861327526378/permalink/938171299628711/
Is there an ACF thread for this major Australian error or am I just searching using the wrong terminology?
I don't think it has been discussed much here.
The first I heard of it was on the coin community forum a fair while back, but I don't think there has been much discussion of it there either.
I don't think any of the noodlers that post have ever found one.
Saw that this morning as I'm sure a few of us did.
Mint sport , from what I believe, if your into that sort of thing. There are collectors who pay big dollars for this coin. And there is your doubters :) There are stories on how this ERROR came to be and how it escaped without being detected by the mint.
You have to make up your own conclussion.
For me will be mintsport unless otherwise proven differently.
Apparently the person responsible for this error was sacked or so I read on facebook
I don't use Facebook so I have not read what is on there, but I did go back and read the thread in CCF.
It did stand out a bit to me that there were a fair number of new posters to that thread.
It looks a bit like one person promoting the idea that these are found in circulation when really, they are just in the hands of a few people connected to the creation of these coins.
Has anyone here found one?
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='86734' dateline='1459914624'Has anyone here found one?
Not me!
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='86734' dateline='1459914624'I don't use Facebook so I have not read what is on there, but I did go back and read the thread in CCF.
It did stand out a bit to me that there were a fair number of new posters to that thread.
It looks a bit like one person promoting the idea that these are found in circulation when really, they are just in the hands of a few people connected to the creation of these coins.
Has anyone here found one?
You could be right Oz as there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.Maybe he was the production manager
There was one in Downies 2013 aUnc listed for $2,500
Last page, left column:
http://www.downies.com/catalogues/2013/130315/130315_Error_Coins.pdf
I agree some proof of production run authenticity will be if they show up widespread in noodles. If indeed it was a fantasy coin on the other hand all the items listed to date in unc would support that theory.
There's a 9 page thread on them over at CCF, here's a link.
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044&whichpage=1 (http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044&whichpage=1)
It does have it's followers, but give me a nice wrong plancet, misstrike, or indented error anytime, :)
QuoteHas anyone here found one?
Me, never too.
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86736' dateline='1459917091'there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.
That's absurd.
Yes, but did he say where he found them?
Maybe at the bottom of his lunchbox, when he got home from work (at the mint).
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='86763' dateline='1459939214'Yes, but did he say where he found them?
Maybe at the bottom of his lunchbox, when he got home from work (at the mint).
Hi didn't say but he runs the biggest Australian coin page on Facebook
There is an interesting story of how they were smuggled out.
I remember one being reported as being found in change I think but I don't remember where I read it.
I remember a story of a mint employee being caught sneaking coins out in his shoe each day, but I think that was well before 2007.
There seems to quite a number of finds reported in the CCF thread I linked on the previous page.
All I know is I haven't found one, but then again I don't noodle 5c, they're too small for me.
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86766' dateline='1459940520'Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='86763' dateline='1459939214'Yes, but did he say where he found them?
Maybe at the bottom of his lunchbox, when he got home from work (at the mint).
Hi didn't say but he runs the biggest Australian coin page on Facebook
stevo is that the slab bloke? :dodgy:
Think that was the $2 coins, Uni. Remember that reading that one as well, Mr T.
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='86761' dateline='1459936453'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86736' dateline='1459917091'there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.
That's absurd.
It does seem that way.
Then again: My finding 4 perfect NCLT $1 in a roll recently seems pretty far fetched too.
I think I have established my credibility here over a long period of time.
How trustworthy is the person making that claim?
Would be interested to know whereabouts and over what period of time they say they found them.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='86788' dateline='1459983129'Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='86761' dateline='1459936453'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86736' dateline='1459917091'there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.
That's absurd.
It does seem that way.
Then again my finding 4 perfect NCLT $1 in a roll recently seems pretty far fetched too
Would be interested to know whereabouts and over what period of time they say they found them.
Would have been around the Glenn Innes area but couldn't give you any more info as it was from an old conversation which has probably been deleted and it may or may not be true
Just found the original post from awhile ago over on the ccf. Hope it's ok to post the link.
Just for reference purposes.
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044
Quote from: 'runway' pid='86776' dateline='1459944881'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86766' dateline='1459940520'Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='86763' dateline='1459939214'Yes, but did he say where he found them?
Maybe at the bottom of his lunchbox, when he got home from work (at the mint).
Hi didn't say but he runs the biggest Australian coin page on Facebook
stevo is that the slab bloke? :dodgy:
No it's not Shane Williams
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86790' dateline='1459984604'Just found the original post from awhile ago over on the ccf. Hope it's ok to post the link.
Just for reference purposes.
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044
Hi gnome, Did you notice he used several pics as a reference, but neither obverse image occurred twice?
I spoke to a young chap a few months ago who works in Downies (Sydney). He told me he found one (the first one IIRC) in his change in the inner west of Sydney and that others have been found in that area. Sounds like a genuine mint error to me.
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='86761' dateline='1459936453'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86736' dateline='1459917091'there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.
That's absurd.
It's just as ridiculous as the story about the person who found 200 $1 mules
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86806' dateline='1459995802'It's just as ridiculous as the story about the person who found 200 $1 mules
We all know of a certain seeker who has found 43+ though :)
Pretty sure there was also a couple or 3 who did locate a large amount between them over in WA at the casino. I'm think that's a truey.
I know of one person that has found in excess of number of mules mentioned above but I will not divulge the numbers found or the name of the person.
I have actually found 43 Mules to date and I still have 24 in my possession.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/ssh.jpg)
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='86815' dateline='1460014993'I know of one person that has found in excess of number of mules mentioned above but I will not divulge the numbers found or the name of the person.
I have actually found 43 Mules to date and I still have 24 in my possession.
Bet you noodles close to half a million dollars worth for that haul too
Half a million dollars. No where near. Try 2.54 miliion dollar coins.
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86790' dateline='1459984604'Just found the original post from awhile ago over on the ccf. Hope it's ok to post the link.
Just for reference purposes.
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044
Neild oh dear :dodgy:
Quote from: 'runway' pid='86833' dateline='1460035814'Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86790' dateline='1459984604'Just found the original post from awhile ago over on the ccf. Hope it's ok to post the link.
Just for reference purposes.
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044
Neild oh dear :dodgy:
What is "oh dear" referring to?
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='86824' dateline='1460026183'Half a million dollars. No where near. Try 2.54 miliion dollar coins.
gawd!!! :mafia:
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='86842' dateline='1460067953'Quote from: 'runway' pid='86833' dateline='1460035814'Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86790' dateline='1459984604'Just found the original post from awhile ago over on the ccf. Hope it's ok to post the link.
Just for reference purposes.
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48044
Neild oh dear :dodgy:
What is "oh dear" referring to?
Obviously Neild on CCC :dodgy:
"Mint Sport" in this case is a pretty fancy name for "Stolen Property" which is exactly what these coins are IMHO.
There is NO possible way a double headed coin could be minted by mistake, It would have to have been specially created.
Maybe just maybe ONE of these pieces may have been accidently put into circulation.
From what I understand is that all of the coins in question are in "Mint" condition which is rather strange as the chances of anyone noticing one in their change is minimal and you would expect to find mainly circulated specimens like the 2000mule, 2000 incused millennium and the wavy 1966 20c coin and very few uncirculated coins.
On the other hand I would surmise that double struck and other errors that leave the coin misshapen are easily detected and it is not unusual to find these in mint state.
This leads me to believe that double headed coins were "Spirited" out of the mint nefariously by mint employee/employees purely for profit.
As far as I am concerned the people that "knowingly" deal in these particular coins are of questionable integrity to say the very least :dodgy:
I'm with you trout, it's all a bit way to suss for my liking and like you said about the mule etc there are quite a few around but there only appears to be a hand full of these so called double headers. If this is a legit error I hope the person that "mistakenly" put two of the same dies in the press no longer works there but I'd really like to know either what drugs they were on or how pissed they were as that's one major boo boo so definitely mint sport :dodgy:
So the story goes, these so called ERRORS, and I use the term pretty loosely, were spirited away undetected by a female. I imagine a couple would have been distributed in the wild to make it look more authentic . Just my extra thoughts on it.
Fuelled by the fact that collectors are willing to pay huge sums for these coins! No market- no problem! :angel:
I pretty much agree with Trout on this coin.
Further (although not rock solid) evidence is that they do not seem to be found by noodlers - pointing to them not actually being in circulation.
However the new problem is some of these errors have been slabbed. Once slabbed according to some that makes them an official error. Mintsport or not. Once slabbed, you will have a market.
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86885' dateline='1460184838'However the new problem is some of these errors have been slabbed. Once slabbed according to some that makes them an official error. Mintsport or not. Once slabbed, you will have a market.
I am not sure that slabbing makes much difference to the size of the market?
A slab would confirm that the coin is not fake, but there are plenty of other ways to confirm that a coin is not fake.
Deliberately made errors are less desirable to me, but I don't know how many people would feel the same as me - and it is pretty hard to tell if a coin was deliberately made as an error or not.
Yes the slabbers have been known to slab a fake so I can't see why they wouldn't slab a deliberately made error as they only want our money so I think they'd slab anything pretty much.
With a double head/tails coin it is pretty obvious that they are made deliberately.
I am surprised that RAM hasn't demanded the return of these and laid charges against the sellers.
I suppose it's try to proving who did it as they might have been bought off either feebay, facebook or maybe even an anda show and gone through a few sets of hands but with some tracking and threats of gaol they'd soon find out.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='86897' dateline='1460196195'I suppose it's try to proving who did it as they might have been bought off either feebay, facebook or maybe even an anda show and gone through a few sets of hands but with some tracking and threats of gaol they'd soon find out.
Regardless of who did what, Whoever has it at the moment has stolen property in their possession .
I am pretty sure that we have laws that make this illegal .
true but then do the feds want to do anything about it as there's heaps of sales of fake coins on facebook and ebay that they don't worry about.
PCGS slab or it doesn't exist
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='86903' dateline='1460198748'true but then do the feds want to do anything about it as there's heaps of sales of fake coins on facebook and ebay that they don't worry about.
This whole "Error" market is riddled with "Mint Sport" and not only in Aus.
The US and Canadian mint has the same problem with their employees
"Spiriting away" created "Errors".
The people that make and steal these from their particular mint are NO different than the counterfeiters that everyone hates.
Just because these pieces of Crap are created in a government controlled Mint by dodgy individuals doesn't make them "Kosher" :ok:
People like Goldie who noodled about 2.5 million coins to find a few "Real" errors are probably appalled at the people at a mint that can create an error in 5 min :dodgy:
the mint used to be stricter and I think that explanation might be that a lot of dodgey production staff as being to expire and the kids are selling dad's hoard of interesting errors and laughing all the way to the bank
my coin dealer is ex RAM and he has been getting really upset when he finds out about these errors and he knows who they are attributed to - he gets upset that he didn't know the true character of that employee & they were busy flogging stuff
but in credit to the original owners, they seem to have not done this for economic gain as the coins aren't surfacing until after they have died
I doubt that the police could charge a person posthumous but they could confiscate but seem to turn a blind eye these days
Quote from: 'trout' pid='86894' dateline='1460195807'With a double head/tails coin it is pretty obvious that they are made deliberately.
I am surprised that RAM hasn't demanded the return of these and laid charges against the sellers.
Maybe yes and maybe no. Short of an admission by the crook that they have done something wrong we cannot be certain that a genuine boo boo didn't occur. Tired staff, odd shifts, striking lots of NCLT coins, drug and alcohol use etc etc could all lead to mistakes in putting the wrong die in. The 2000 mule is evidence of this sort of goof.
Your correct that thing can happen. However it is the story of the way they left the mint that pretty much confirms they were not a mistake.
what is that story?
the old in the bottom of the boot trick?
not quite, inserted internally so the story goes.
:shock: WTF :blink:
but I suppose a fiver would be easier than a fifty :winkextra:
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86959' dateline='1460301686'not quite, inserted internally so the story goes.
I was wondering how they got those little stinkers out :angel::laugh2:
so the story goes. Ripleys believe it or not :)
OMG
eeeekkk
wonder how they have remained so shiney?
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='86959' dateline='1460301686'not quite, inserted internally so the story goes.
Eeek!
That's the same way visitors get drugs into prisons, but that is another story!
well
if an employee went to that amount of effort
then it is outright theft
which I sort of think is different to someone who popped an error in his pocket out of curiosity and then keeps it for a few decades
although I can say that I have seen albums with pages full of unc decimal miss trikes (I was allowed to look but not buy)
so the owner had a fairly regular take home habit!!
eek hope those ones were in pockets or socks ....
I have seen something similar.
The gents wife worked with Armaguard etc and got to sort the coins out.
I was allowed to look but do not touch or was allowed to buy.
Lucky people.
Thanks very much for all your thoughts on the subject of the double headed 5c
The question to ask the forum is then can anyone say they have been actively noodling 5c coins for a copy of the coin and what if any success can be reported?
I have been actively looking for them since I found out they existed.
I have not found one. ...
Thanks Oz! - May I ask how long you have been looking and how many coins you may have searched?
I don't actively search for a double header but have search quite a few thousand now and haven't found any but think my count of 1972 is somewhere around 27.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='87086' dateline='1460464849'my count of 1972 is somewhere around 27.
Thanks AJ, that puts it in some kind of perspective for me - aka quite a bit rarer.
Quote from: 'Chuckey' pid='87078' dateline='1460461506'how many coins you may have searched?
There are some $215million of 5¢ coins circulating. 4,300,000,000 coins, give or take.
Since double-headed coins can't be made accidentally, and assuming the thief released a small number into circulation to cover her tracks, the total would be unlikely to be into triple digits. So call it 100, just to pluck a number out of thin air.
1 coin out of 43,000,000 is not very good odds at all, is it? And the odds get worse with each coin found.
In other words, this is not a game to even contemplate playing. Especially for something that was never a 'real' error in the first place.
I think Fulvio has it pretty right.
If it were somehow a legitimate error, my understanding is that there would be up to 200,000 made from one pair of dies, so still very hard to find, but it would have expected someone known/credible to have posted info on finding them by now.
Eg I read about someone finding a rotated 2010 50c on silver stickers, so I started looking for them. When I found one I made a post on CCF and then others started reporting finding some too.
50's are one of my favourite coins to search and I have only found four rotated/upset and they're not in the best of condition but still good to have some :)
So has anyone here actually found or bought a 2007 Double Headed 5c ?
Not me.
Not me either
I found one back in 2009 in change from coffee in Surry Hills. It was the first time I'd seen it.
Quote from: 'planchetflaw' pid='87649' dateline='1461202529'I found one back in 2009 in change from coffee in Surry Hills. It was the first time I'd seen it.
Interesting.
Has anyone else found one?
I haven't found one and I've searched through thousands worth
https://www.pcgs.com/Membership/sharedorder.aspx?OrderNo=21020299&Year=2016&Month=4
Quote from: 'trout' pid='87820' dateline='1461648634'https://www.pcgs.com/Membership/sharedorder.aspx?OrderNo=21020299&Year=2016&Month=4
They probably belong to Shane Williams
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='87821' dateline='1461649316'They probably belong to Shane Williams
He knows where to get his coins graded.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='87823' dateline='1461654934'He knows where to get his coins graded.
Yeah, nothing suspect here at all, eh? :angel:
I wonder why he grades some of his own coins and not others :scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='88774' dateline='1463557674'I wonder why he grades some of his own coins and not others :scratch_one-s_head:
He doesn't grade stuff he's going to sell .If he used his own slabs
he'd get less for them
PCGS slabs are industry standard the APCGS slabs have no appeal for me yuck
who knows with him, I think he's pretty sly and probably does grade and sell his own but who'd know as he apparently works by him self so the hole thing sounds suss to me.
Wrong Shane guys :ok:
There's too bloody many of them so I can't keep up :blink:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='88801' dateline='1463575659'Wrong Shane guys :ok:
So which Shane is it ?
Quote from: 'runway' pid='88870' dateline='1463661215'Quote from: 'trout' pid='88801' dateline='1463575659'Wrong Shane guys :ok:
So which Shane is it ?
Its the collector Shane from CCF Not the "Dodgy Bro's TPG" Shane :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='88873' dateline='1463695470'Quote from: 'runway' pid='88870' dateline='1463661215'Quote from: 'trout' pid='88801' dateline='1463575659'Wrong Shane guys :ok:
So which Shane is it ?
Its the collector Shane from CCF Not the "Dodgy Bro's TPG" Shane :ok:
From US Forum?
Everybody seen this dodgy APCGS 'Double Tail'?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112100246256
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='97879' dateline='1473764856'Everybody seen this dodgy APCGS 'Double Tail'?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112100246256
I have a mate who works at APCGS and I made him aware of this auction. He confirmed that it is in fact real and authenticated. Who woulda thought?!
Quote from: 'tooloot' pid='98052' dateline='1473985170'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='97879' dateline='1473764856'Everybody seen this dodgy APCGS 'Double Tail'?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112100246256
I have a mate who works at APCGS and I made him aware of this auction. He confirmed that it is in fact real and authenticated. Who woulda thought?!
Being "Certified" by APCGS doesn't give this coin much credibility I am afraid.
It may indeed be genuine But there is absolutely NO way I would take APCGS's word for it :angel:
Quote from: 'tooloot' pid='98052' dateline='1473985170'real and authenticated. Who woulda thought?!
The guys who made it, that's who.
APCGS is a joke at best, and their 'authentication' isn't worth the paper its printed on.
As I've said before, here and elsewhere, just because a coin is 'real', as in not doctored, doesn't make it authentic. There is no way for a mint to accidentally produce such trinkets because the dies won't physically fit into the production presses. Therefore they're not real coins.
What they are are mint sports, made illegally by employees and smuggled out for fun and profit. Actually, profit and profit. These guys are crooked as a dog's hind leg, which is why they use the shonkiest TPG
(which may even be in on the scam, but that's another story). The smarter ones release a few into the wild to try and lend some legitimacy, but that's no different to a counterfeiter throwing a few notes into a donation box.
IF these things have any value at all, its as objects, not coins. Counterfeit currency has achieved collector status before, as have bits of metal stamped out by various private concerns which had no monetary status. If I found one, I'd keep it, sure. Just like I keep some roadkill. But buy one? Not on your life. Especially in a dodgy slab and at those prices. Criminals don't deserve to be rewarded. :mafia:
That's very expensive for a 5c coin, even with the double tail. If I had that kind of money, I'd spent it on a 1930 penny.
I am with Fulvio on these things.
They are pretty much $3 notes as far as I am concerned :ok:
They are not errors they are illegally manufactured oddities .
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-2007-DOUBLE-HEAD-DOUBLE-OBVERSE-5-CENT-AU-58-ERROR-COIN-/112100242611?hash=item1a19b1f4b3:g:V5wAAOSwIgNXtpu2
I see a pattern with this grub seller and APCGS
Quote from: 'runway' pid='104344' dateline='1485259737'http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-2007-DOUBLE-HEAD-DOUBLE-OBVERSE-5-CENT-AU-58-ERROR-COIN-/112100242611?hash=item1a19b1f4b3:g:V5wAAOSwIgNXtpu2
I see a pattern with this grub seller and APCGS
This seller does seem to have a constant supply of these "Mint Sport" offerings, It almost looks like She has an insider at the Mint supplying them:dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='104347' dateline='1485294751'She has an insider at the Mint supplying them:dodgy:
Ooooohhh.. look... 180° upset!!!
Wonder if I can put in an order for clockfaces?
Seriously, what kind of wanker would pay anything for this rubbish?
One's with pockets a lot deeper than mine Fulvio and even if I did have that sort of money I'd find something better to spend it on...like adding to my proof sets :D
Quote from: 'trout' pid='104347' dateline='1485294751'It almost looks like She has an insider at the Mint supplying them:dodgy:
Funny you should say that. I saw a conversation on FB the other day that implied exactly that.
Yes seen that too and thought WTF.
I didn't get the impression it was ill-informed, idle bragging.
with them you never know, very suss :dodgy:
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='104380' dateline='1485327362'Quote from: 'trout' pid='104347' dateline='1485294751'It almost looks like She has an insider at the Mint supplying them:dodgy:
Funny you should say that. I saw a conversation on FB the other day that implied exactly that.
Does this btch have a FB account? :dodgy:
Well, I'll be...
A PCGS AU55 turned up in my FB post about these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-Double-Headed-2007-Aus-5c-Coin-ERROR-Two-Head-Obverse-5-Cent-Five-AU55-aUNC-/272409262040
And another:
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/33781810
I was under the impression that ebay member was selling on consignment for a well-known-on-the-internet Tasmanian collector of errors who has a number of high-end errors. With regards to the double headers there does seem to be quite a lot out there but I wouldn't put genuine credit to any not in a PCGS or NGC slab -there are fakes that PCGS has rejected before.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104414' dateline='1485367697'Well, I'll be...
A PCGS AU55 turned up in my FB post about these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-Double-Headed-2007-Aus-5c-Coin-ERROR-Two-Head-Obverse-5-Cent-Five-AU55-aUNC-/272409262040
Massive price reduction on this one when it was relisted
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='104426' dateline='1485383611'Massive price reduction on this one when it was relisted
Imagine that! :angel:
I wouldn't buy a fake coin.. whether it was made inside or outside the mint.
One for sale on FB now
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104440' dateline='1485393105'I wouldn't buy a fake coin.. whether it was made inside or outside the mint.
How does the mint make fake coins? Aren't they authorised by the government to make genuine ones? :dontknow:
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105370' dateline='1487210451'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104440' dateline='1485393105'I wouldn't buy a fake coin.. whether it was made inside or outside the mint.
How does the mint make fake coins? Aren't they authorised by the government to make genuine ones? :dontknow:
The Mint doesn't make fake coins.
Some of the people that work at the Mint make fake coins illegally :dodgy:
Yes we call them "mint sport" Herc :ok: Illegally made and then smuggled out somehow :dodgy:
Using that definition, I wonder if the 1977 and 1988 50c CoA mules are also fakes...
Probably not because there's not heaps around unless someone is sitting on a stash but I doubt it, not like these double headed 5 cents as they seem to be coming out of the woodwork.
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105380' dateline='1487228771'Using that definition, I wonder if the 1977 and 1988 50c CoA mules are also fakes...
With these two mules it is highly probable that these were mistakenly struck using the COA dies and have nothing to do with "Mint Sport".
If they were mint sport I imagine that there would be more of them around than what has been reported so far.
With the double headed coins they HAVE to have been deliberately created.
I'm just guessing here, but I reckon if these are deliberately made.
But they would have to be made on the proof press one at a time, because there's no way they could be fed into the main press which pumps out hundreds at a time turn them over & feed them through again, but done on the proof press easy one at a time turn it over do it again.
Just my guess.
I'm thinking of the presses you can see on the left from the visitors gallery. Depending on the dies and blanks used, these presses can make proofs and sports issues. Are there more presses located elsewhere not visible from the gallery?
The place has changed a lot since 2007 (oops)
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='105399' dateline='1487265593'I'm thinking of the presses you can see on the left from the visitors gallery. Depending on the dies and blanks used, these presses can make proofs and sports issues. Are there more presses located elsewhere not visible from the gallery?
Quote from: 'interest' pid='105396' dateline='1487249326'I'm just guessing here, but I reckon if these are deliberately made.
But they would have to be made on the proof press one at a time, because there's no way they could be fed into the main press which pumps out hundreds at a time turn them over & feed them through again, but done on the proof press easy one at a time turn it over do it again.
Just my guess.
Why would they need to be fed through twice? Surely, it wouldn't be difficult for a worker to remove the reverse die and replace it with an obverse die by mistake. Once they realised their mistake, they would have corrected it, but not before some of them slipped through quality control.
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105407' dateline='1487286439'Quote from: 'interest' pid='105396' dateline='1487249326'I'm just guessing here, but I reckon if these are deliberately made.
But they would have to be made on the proof press one at a time, because there's no way they could be fed into the main press which pumps out hundreds at a time turn them over & feed them through again, but done on the proof press easy one at a time turn it over do it again.
Just my guess.
Why would they need to be fed through twice? Surely, it wouldn't be difficult for a worker to remove the reverse die and replace it with an obverse die by mistake. Once they realised their mistake, they would have corrected it, but not before some of them slipped through quality control.
2 reasons,
the first:-
press and die tooling is machined such that the obverse and reverse dies can only be used in conjunction - only reverse dies fit in one side, and only obverse dies fit in the other . . . The chance of the circulating presses making double heads or double tails is extremely remote, as the tools would have to be incorrectly made and pass through several quality checks before coining.
the second:-
if you look at these coins you will notice that the Heads are all differently rotated to each other.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='105406' dateline='1487285302'The place has changed a lot since 2007 (oops)
Y'think? :dodgy:
From memory, there were presses on the left side of the gallery, directly opposite where they installed the first robot. But I haven't been there in many years, let alone done a tour.
When's the next one, anyway?
Quote from: 'interest' pid='105413' dateline='1487295814'if you look at these coins you will notice that the Heads are all differently rotated to each other.
Yup. The keying is such that the only way to get the die in is upside down, and even then, It would never happen on a production press.
These sports are no accident.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='105396' dateline='1487249326'I'm just guessing here, but I reckon if these are deliberately made.
But they would have to be made on the proof press one at a time, because there's no way they could be fed into the main press which pumps out hundreds at a time turn them over & feed them through again, but done on the proof press easy one at a time turn it over do it again.
Just my guess.
I agree they are deliberately made but I don't follow this part, "turn it over do it again". I thought these were made with two obverse dies, one of which is adapted/machined so that it can replace the reverse die.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='105435' dateline='1487325954'I don't follow this part, "turn it over do it again
Me neither. Doing that would crush the already-struck design. It would stick out like the proverbial... :angel:
Quote from: 'interest' pid='105413' dateline='1487295814'Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105407' dateline='1487286439'Quote from: 'interest' pid='105396' dateline='1487249326'I'm just guessing here, but I reckon if these are deliberately made.
But they would have to be made on the proof press one at a time, because there's no way they could be fed into the main press which pumps out hundreds at a time turn them over & feed them through again, but done on the proof press easy one at a time turn it over do it again.
Just my guess.
Why would they need to be fed through twice? Surely, it wouldn't be difficult for a worker to remove the reverse die and replace it with an obverse die by mistake. Once they realised their mistake, they would have corrected it, but not before some of them slipped through quality control.
2 reasons,
the first:-
press and die tooling is machined such that the obverse and reverse dies can only be used in conjunction - only reverse dies fit in one side, and only obverse dies fit in the other . . . The chance of the circulating presses making double heads or double tails is extremely remote, as the tools would have to be incorrectly made and pass through several quality checks before coining.
the second:-
if you look at these coins you will notice that the Heads are all differently rotated to each other.
Exactly :wavemulticolor:
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86736' dateline='1459917091'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='86734' dateline='1459914624'I don't use Facebook so I have not read what is on there, but I did go back and read the thread in CCF.
It did stand out a bit to me that there were a fair number of new posters to that thread.
It looks a bit like one person promoting the idea that these are found in circulation when really, they are just in the hands of a few people connected to the creation of these coins.
Has anyone here found one?
You could be right Oz as there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.Maybe he was the production manager
Who is that guy that gloats 15 found stevo? :dodgy:
Exactly as Fulvio said.
It would take 2 dies and 1 strike.
Found one myself in 2009 in change from coffee in Surry Hills. Have seen or heard of at least 16 in person (not found myself), not to mention all the ones that go through auction. Mostly found around Sydney city. One guy's little girl found one on the street and showed her dad because of the two heads. He showed me and it had definitely been on the street for a while with scratches all over it from probably being run over. I don't have facebook, so that 15 person isn't me. But I feel very confident that these were accidental and those that have them genuinely found them.
That's what I think as well. If these are mint sport, then why have so many of them ended up in general circulation? :dontknow:
Quote from: 'runway' pid='105451' dateline='1487334338'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='86736' dateline='1459917091'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='86734' dateline='1459914624'I don't use Facebook so I have not read what is on there, but I did go back and read the thread in CCF.
It did stand out a bit to me that there were a fair number of new posters to that thread.
It looks a bit like one person promoting the idea that these are found in circulation when really, they are just in the hands of a few people connected to the creation of these coins.
Has anyone here found one?
You could be right Oz as there is one guy on facebook saying that he has found about 15 of them.Maybe he was the production manager
Who is that guy that gloats 15 found stevo? :dodgy:
It was the guy who owns the FNQ page
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105636' dateline='1487664592'why have so many of them ended up in general circulation? :dontknow:
The woman who got busted was spending them, precisely so that they would turn up in circulation, and take suspicion off her when she started flogging the uncirculated ones she had.
They cost you nothing, so its a no-brainer. Cheap insurance against going to jail. Well, that's the theory at least, since she got busted anyway. ;)
From what I have read and have been told the obverse dies are quite a different shape/fit to the reverse dies and that they wont fit into the wrong place on the press.
So for a double headed or a double tail coin to be produced it HAS to be done deliberately and cannot be done accidently.
Is this an "Urban Myth" or can someone substantiate this?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105646' dateline='1487672376'Is this an "Urban Myth" or can someone substantiate this?
Ross confirmed they're sports, though he didn't go into detail.
I plan on taking a close look and asking many questions next time I'm up there for a tour. Hopefully so will everyone else, and we can get to the bottom of this. With pictures. :)
QuoteRoss confirmed they're sports, though he didn't go into detail.
That's Good enough for Me. :good:
The thing that really gets my goat up is that the TPG's are grading these things and calling them genuine errors when they are most certainly aware that they are Mint Sport and NOT a genuine error coin.
Maybe IF they were to attribute them correctly as "Mint Sport" then they wouldn't be so popular and the "Bum Smugglers" at RAM wouldn't have such a ready market for their ill gotten products.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105651' dateline='1487676130'I plan on taking a close look and asking many questions next time I'm up there for a tour. Hopefully so will everyone else, and we can get to the bottom of this. With pictures. :)
Are the dies used for business strikes essentially the same as those used for MS and Proof strikes - apart from any treatment of the surface (of the die)? In other words, do all the dies fit into the various presses, I can imagine the dies used in the business strike presses being different to ones used for the proof presses.
However, since one die requires some kind of modification in order for it to fit facing the wrong way (down instead of up)? It might be that both dies needed to be modified. On the other hand, maybe proof dies were used at the end of the genuine production run.
If these are mint sport (and it seems they must be).
Why smuggle them out, then spend them?
Why not put them in with the normal coins if you want them in circulation?
Has anyone got any proof that someone was caught doing anything bad?
QuoteWhy not put them in with the normal coins if you want them in circulation?
I would think that putting them into circulation wasn't the reason these were made, It was more about making money than making mischief :dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105662' dateline='1487686993'QuoteWhy not put them in with the normal coins if you want them in circulation?
I would think that putting them into circulation wasn't the reason these were made, It was more about making money than making mischief :dodgy:
There was the suggestion that they were smuggled out, then some were put into circulation to make them look legitimate.
QuoteThere was the suggestion that they were smuggled out, then some were put into circulation to make them look legitimate.
That would make sense also I imagine that a third party would be involved, Someone NOT associated with the Mint to distribute and sell these.
Ok what I don't understand is how one person only was caught or fired or whatever from the mint. Supposedly.
Where are the dies located at the mint. ? In a locked room, vault, somebodies bottom draw of their desk, locker room. So access to actually get the obverse dies would mean they had the keys, special access, combination to the lock, a partner to the room. Can just see IT ,now the smoko lady or the cleaner has access, just see them for their keys. "Here you go, love. Give em back to me later. " That's just to get into the room with the dies. Then there's do you have to sign for the dies. Can anybody go and get the dies or is their special clearence needed, key card, finger printing technology, find a buddy to go with you. Then their is the fitting of the dies, wouldn't you need a bit of knowledge how to fit them or do they fit together like leggo blocks. Then access to get the blanks. Seems to have alot of clearence and access availability for my thinking for just one person only. Lots of questions still.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='105660' dateline='1487681041'Are the dies used for business strikes essentially the same as those used for MS and Proof strikes
Good question. I would say yes, based on the incused flag 50¢. These dies were intended to produce the coloured flag in the sets, but when that didn't pan out, they replaced them with a flat printed flag and put the die(s) into the general population.
As for spending coins, its a good way to cover your tracks. The coins cost you nothing other than the risk to smuggle them out. You seed a few into the mix, wait for them to surface, then start flogging yours. If I was doing it, I'd start with some I'd beaten up a bit first, then haul out the pristine ones once the dust had settled.
Not sure where TPGs sit. Do they even HAVE a 'sport' category? I would imagine they'd just be looking at the coin to determine if its real, not its provenance.
What I DO think would help is for the mints to declare that these are not legitimate. In much the same way that 'borrowing' real printing plates to make your own notes doesn't legitimise them, neither does this.
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='105673' dateline='1487729941'Where are the dies located at the mint
There is a large room adjacent to the presses on the north side, and the dies are basically sitting there. I'll see if I can find the piccies in my archives, or anything online.
There's nothing unusual about swapping dies. Its routine. What wouldn't be routine is going across the hall to get to the proof presses. But depending on time of day and who was involved, its not impossible.
As for the one girl who we know got caught, we don't know there weren't others. They made a big fuss about the bloke who was taking $2 coins out in his boots cos of the high value of the coins and how long he got away with it (plus the fact he was caught by the public, not the mint), but a few bucks worth of shrapnel isn't something they'd likely make public. Some intensive research should turn up court records though.
QuoteWhat I DO think would help is for the mints to declare that these are not legitimate. In much the same way that 'borrowing' real printing plates to make your own notes doesn't legitimise them, neither does this.
Maybe there are people at the Mint that have been or are still involved with these and to De Legitimise these would Not be in their Best interests ?
QuoteNot sure where TPGs sit. Do they even HAVE a 'sport' category? I would imagine they'd just be looking at the coin to determine if its real, not its provenance.
As these are obviously NOT genuine errors the honest and right thing to do would be to "Boddybag" them and Not encapsulate them at all.
The TPG's can and do still charge for the grading fee for a boddybagged coin so they wouldn't be out of pocket and it would be a great help in stemming the flow of these things onto the market.
Thanks Fulvio, would be great to see some pics. Appreciate it. :)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105674' dateline='1487730030'As for spending coins, its a good way to cover your tracks. The coins cost you nothing other than the risk to smuggle them out. You seed a few into the mix, wait for them to surface, then start flogging yours. If I was doing it, I'd start with some I'd beaten up a bit first, then haul out the pristine ones once the dust had settled.
If I were doing it, I'd deposit them all at a big, inner-city bank, amongst a whole heap of other 5c coins, in the hope that no one would check them individually, and in the hope that no one would be able to track me down once they discovered them. If you spend them individually, you're bound to get caught, but if you put them in a bag amongst hundreds or thousands of others, no one will ever notice until they start turning up in security rolls. Then Armaguard will get blamed instead of you. ;)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105652' dateline='1487676717'QuoteRoss confirmed they're sports, though he didn't go into detail.
That's Good enough for Me. :good:
The thing that really gets my goat up is that the TPG's are grading these things and calling them genuine errors when they are most certainly aware that they are Mint Sport and NOT a genuine error coin.
Maybe IF they were to attribute them correctly as "Mint Sport" then they wouldn't be so popular and the "Bum Smugglers" at RAM wouldn't have such a ready market for their ill gotten products.
Wasn't it a female who was caught? Without spelling it out female smugglers have another option besides their bum.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105683' dateline='1487752916'Quote from: 'trout' pid='105652' dateline='1487676717'Maybe IF they were to attribute them correctly as "Mint Sport" then they wouldn't be so popular and the "Bum Smugglers" at RAM wouldn't have such a ready market for their ill gotten products.
Wasn't it a female who was caught? Without spelling it out female smugglers have another option besides their bum.
Personally, I wouldn't want a coin that had been in someone's bum. It grosses me out just thinking about it.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105683' dateline='1487752916'Wasn't it a female who was caught?
Yes, and yes, and I would presume a plastic bag was involved. If only to protect the coins. ;)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105700' dateline='1487765651'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105683' dateline='1487752916'Wasn't it a female who was caught?
Yes, and yes, and I would presume a plastic bag was involved. If only to protect the coins. ;)
I sure hope you're right. Coins are dirty enough without people sticking them where the light don't shine.
QuoteI sure hope you're right. Coins are dirty enough without people sticking them where the light don't shine.
I think that is exactly where these types of "coins" belong :angel:
As an aside, PCGS' view is that if the coins are struck with original dies - legally or otherwise - then PCGS will grade them.
There is at least two precedents that I can think of from the top of my mind:
1) The "restrike" 1900 South African Pond. This restrike was struck in Europe from original dies stolen from Pretoria. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/33118596
2) The "restrikes" from the Indian mints, one of which is the 1960s restrikes of the Bombay penny and halfpenny. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/29225076
Both were struck illegally.
Whether the double-header 5C was made illegally or by accident, it'll join the long list of coins with mysterious origins.
Eric
That IS interesting Eric, I had No idea that there were Australian pre decimal restrikes made.
I have an Indian 8 Anna coin that is a restrike, Do you know where this was struck ?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/30317232_800x600.jpg)
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='105861' dateline='1488025805'As an aside, PCGS' view is that if the coins are struck with original dies - legally or otherwise - then PCGS will grade them.
There is at least two precedents that I can think of from the top of my mind:
1) The "restrike" 1900 South African Pond. This restrike was struck in Europe from original dies stolen from Pretoria. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/33118596
2) The "restrikes" from the Indian mints, one of which is the 1960s restrikes of the Bombay penny and halfpenny. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/29225076
Both were struck illegally.
Whether the double-header 5C was made illegally or by accident, it'll join the long list of coins with mysterious origins.
Eric
Were the Bombay restrikes struck illegally or just not authorized by Australia? The Indian mint officials would have been acting under Indian laws and not ours and the problem was that our officials only knew about the restrikes after the fact and complained then that Australia didn't like what India was doing. Had they been illegally struck then wouldn't we have asked for more than just them stopping but asked them to pass on customers names so the counterfeits could be seized.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105883' dateline='1488071528'Were the Bombay restrikes struck illegally or just not authorized by Australia?
Same thing.
The issue with counterfeiting is that it debases the currency, by adding money into the system which was never issued. Whether its a backyard job or the actions of a foreign government, the result is the same, and that's why its a crime.
The physical form itself is somewhat irrelevant to the crime, other than as evidence of it.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105885' dateline='1488072438'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105883' dateline='1488071528'Were the Bombay restrikes struck illegally or just not authorized by Australia?
Same thing.
The issue with counterfeiting is that it debases the currency, by adding money into the system which was never issued. Whether its a backyard job or the actions of a foreign government, the result is the same, and that's why its a crime.
The physical form itself is somewhat irrelevant to the crime, other than as evidence of it.
Not the same thing at all. What the Indians did was legal. May as well say the Maria Theresa restrikes are illegal because the Hapsburg empire has not approved them or the proof and specimen strikes of our pre decimals by London mint are illegal if London sold them or sent them to anybody but our government.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105895' dateline='1488084949'Not the same thing at all. What the Indians did was legal.
How is unauthorised minting of another nation's currency in any way legal?
This is no different than say Russia printing US dollars. Its counterfeiting.
http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/products/1942-bombay-proof-halfpenny
Oh look, it seems the government agrees with me:
"The Australian government of the day did not look favourably upon the unauthorised striking of what was then still legal tender, and promptly ensured that the striking of Australian coins was discontinued and the dies returned to Australia."
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105897' dateline='1488087084'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='105895' dateline='1488084949'Not the same thing at all. What the Indians did was legal.
How is unauthorised minting of another nation's currency in any way legal?
This is no different than say Russia printing US dollars. Its counterfeiting.
http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/products/1942-bombay-proof-halfpenny
Oh look, it seems the government agrees with me:
"The Australian government of the day did not look favourably upon the unauthorised striking of what was then still legal tender, and promptly ensured that the striking of Australian coins was discontinued and the dies returned to Australia."
Proves my point. The Indian government had authorized their mint to restrike coins from 1947 on for which the Indian mints had legal possession of. The Australians might not of authorized it and were not happy about it. All they could do was complain and ask for the dies back and the Indians obliged. I'm not sure if anybody knows if the dies were on loan to India in 1942-43 or if India legally owned the dies at that date or after a period of time. After all they were no different to abandoned property in a lost property office whose title is transferred after a certain time.
What is peculiar is that after a few years all of a sudden all the double headers/tails coins miraculously show up all at pretty much the same time.
Especially when these are manufactured errors :dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105866' dateline='1488057489'That IS interesting Eric, I had No idea that there were Australian pre decimal restrikes made.
I have an Indian 8 Anna coin that is a restrike, Do you know where this was struck ?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/30317232_800x600.jpg)
In those days, the Indians restruck anything they had dies for, including their own coins, but also coins from British colonies that India had previously struck circulation coins for. Presumably, the Indian restrikes of Indian coins (like your one) would be considered official restrikes, but the restrikes from other countries and colonies were unauthorised. (Whether they were illegal or not, I'll leave it up to you fellahs to work out!)
Eric
So mine is an "Official" Dodgy coin then :laugh2:
I can't remember what I paid heritage for this coin but it wasn't cheap But after getting stung with 2 counterfeits which weren't cheap either I decided to go the pre slabbed option.
By the time I got the results back from PCGS I had missed the timeframe to be able to return the counterfeits and get my money back from eBay :dash1:
Getting back to the original subject of these double headed coins and others of the same ilk.
I struggle to think why any sane collector would be willing to part with their hard earned money for these obviously manufactured "errors" which in my opinion are NO better than all the other "Backyard" errors being sold.
There is no way known that these are genuine errors and I think it is totally irresponsible for PCGS or NGC to encapsulate these illegal coins.
What's next backyard vice jobs in slabs ? :dash1:
Ive sent off 16 of the 2007 Double obverse 5c to PCGS in the past few months with more coming, all have seen circulation to some degree and all originate within one distribution area. There is a group of guys systematically sorting through all the 5c in that district then once sorted taking them outside that distribution area and depost them. The vast amounts of 5c they have gone through is mind boggling but does explain the sudden increase in availability of this error, previous to the knowledge of the distribution centre responsible only a small handful of people were searching and finding them. They are being found in areas outside this distribution centre aswell however frequencies are so low they look to be escapees of sorts.
So you are saying that 10 years after these were made that all of a sudden they have been "Discovered" But only in one small area and only by a handful of people.
Do you realise just how unbelievable that all sounds? :dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105923' dateline='1488149605'I struggle to think why any sane collector would be willing to part with their hard earned money for these obviously manufactured "errors" which in my opinion are NO better than all the other "Backyard" errors being sold.
I think the real attraction of these coins is that they guarantee you'll always win coin tosses. If I were using this in a cricket match, I'd always choose heads. :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105937' dateline='1488164578'So you are saying that 10 years after these were made that all of a sudden they have been "Discovered" But only in one small area and only by a handful of people.
Do you realise just how unbelievable that all sounds? :dodgy:
The thread on CCF dates back to 2009. Hence, these coins have been in circulation for at least 8 years.
I'm with Trout on this. It all looks pretty fishy so far.
Is there any evidence of the huge noodling effort?
I think I mentioned in the CCF thread on these, about the posters who joined up just to post about these coins. Looked a bit like a marketing campaign to me.
I guess the real question is why they haven't dispersed all over the country by now. I found my $1/10c mule in Canberra in 2009 - over 3000km from where it was released back in 2000. If this is a genuine error that was placed in circulation, then why are they still only being found in the Illawarra region almost ten years after they were made? The mules certainly didn't remain in Perth for that length of time, and they had the Nullarbor to contend with. :dontknow:
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105940' dateline='1488172997'why are they still only being found in the Illawarra region almost ten years after they were made?
My guess is that's where the crook and/or cohorts live. Dribbling them into circulation is a pretty effective smokescreen, especially when reputable people find the ones you've seeded.
They have been finding them since 2008, coins tend not to travel much either especially 5c, the guys finding them are well known to me and in no way dodgy. Love the conspiracy theory though lol
Also it's not the Illawarra region where these recent ones have been coming from, all show appropriate wear for their age aswell.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='105944' dateline='1488176666'They have been finding them since 2008, coins tend not to travel much either especially 5c, the guys finding them are well known to me and in no way dodgy. Love the conspiracy theory though lol
Also it's not the Illawarra region where these recent ones have been coming from, all show appropriate wear for their age aswell.
Interesting
What makes you say that 5c don't travel much?
From my noodling, i would say 5c get heaps of circulation (and therefore travel).
Why? Because I almost never find an old (say pre 1975) 5c in nice condition, while it happens that I find old 50c in quite nice condition. There are almost no 5c that I find with any lustre earlier than 1976
So what other coins do these guys find/collect/sell?
How many coins do they look through?
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='105944' dateline='1488176666'They have been finding them since 2008, coins tend not to travel much either especially 5c, the guys finding them are well known to me and in no way dodgy. Love the conspiracy theory though lol
Also it's not the Illawarra region where these recent ones have been coming from, all show appropriate wear for their age aswell.
Yes the blokes getting you to submit them might not be dodgy but it doesn't mean where they're coming from isn't as there's a lot of unsavoury characters on FB that people swear by but can't be trusted :angel:
One thing I found very strange the other week on FB was that someone gave one away but I forget who gave and who received now but I found it very odd for someone to just give away such a high value coin. Yes I have received and given fairly high value coins but nothing to that sort of value so I wonder why :huh:
It's the same as most graded one's are done in oz as you see quite a few being shown off on many different pages and a few being sold here and there and all TPG's have been known to grade fakes from time to time so you still have to be careful even if the coin is slabbed :winkextra:
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='105950' dateline='1488179892'From my noodling, i would say 5c get heaps of circulation (and therefore travel).
Why? Because I almost never find an old (say pre 1975) 5c in nice condition, while it happens that I find old 50c in quite nice condition.
That's probably because they're commemoratives, and people hoard them. All of the non-commemorative 50c coins I find of that vintage are just as worn as the 5c ones.
Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='105944' dateline='1488176666'the guys finding them are well known to me and in no way dodgy.
Nobody ever said they were. Its not the finders, its the seeders who are dodgy. Just like when someone salts a gold mine to make it look better than it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_(confidence_trick)
Lets get back to basics here...
These coins cannot be made accidentally. Yet they exist. And the TPGs have said they're not forgeries. Therefore they have been made inside the mint, from real dies.
They are circulating, and in a localised area. Since blind Freddie could spot a double-headed coin, its reasonable to assume they get pulled from circulation fairly quickly once noticed. Which suggests that a) they're being seeded in a localised area, and b) they're being dribbled out on a slow and steady basis.
The place to look for wrongdoers isn't the finders of circulated examples, but the UNC ones fetching top dollar.
And no matter how many were circulated, they're still counterfeit currency, not released by the Australian government. In other words, dodgy as a two-bob watch.
I think Fulvio has pretty much covered what I was going to say.
I will add though that just because the coins being "Found" are in a circulated condition doesn't necessarily mean that they have actually circulated, It's not that difficult to replicate circulation wear on a coin before seeding it :angel:
True, just put it in ya wallet for a while would do the trick. Just have to remember it's there ;)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='105967' dateline='1488190871'It's not that difficult to replicate circulation wear on a coin before seeding it :angel:
Yeah, I wasn't going to say it, but you definitely wouldn't want high-grade ones to show up and compete with yours if you could help it.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='105965' dateline='1488189983'These coins cannot be made accidentally. Yet they exist. And the TPGs have said they're not forgeries. Therefore they have been made inside the mint, from real dies.
And no matter how many were circulated, they're still counterfeit currency, not released by the Australian government. In other words, dodgy as a two-bob watch.
:i_agree:
Quotethe TPGs have said they're not forgeries. Therefore they have been made inside the mint, from real dies.
They may have been made inside the mint but NO way are these real errors, They are Mint Sport or Manufactured errors and should be graded AND attributed as such.
Attributing these as a mint error gives them a legitimacy that they really don't deserve as these were minted without authorisation and were illegally made. :dodgy:
What RAM should be doing is to round all these up and confiscate them :good:
Yes and charge anyone that they can prove had anything to do with them and that might stop the next lot from doing the same thing. The fed's should be all over this sort of thing but they don't seem to care so what's the use of them :dodgy:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='105987' dateline='1488195642'The fed's should be all over this sort of thing but they don't seem to care so what's the use of them :dodgy:
They're too busy focusing on those who are easy to catch. Not too dusty having "I rounded up Peter Foster seventeen times" on your C.V. I suppose :laugh2:
Yes they've got him heaps but yet again they don't do FA because he keeps doing the same thing :dodgy:
Who is Peter Foster?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='106000' dateline='1488233568'Who is Peter Foster?
Google it. Anyway, I don't think the government would be too concerned about fake 5c coins, because you can hardly buy anything with them. They're much more interested in crooks who make fake $50 and $100 notes, which is why they're replacing all our banknotes with new ones. :ok:
Counterfeiting is a criminal act regardless of the denomination chosen, It is also a criminal act to steal government property.
You have to remember that it wasn't THAT long ago people were Hung for "Coining", So it is not exactly a "Misdemeanour" offence.
Don't actually recall a hanging, but the sentences could be pretty harsh
Quote
Peter Foster is a well known serial conman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Foster).
In 2006 he tried to escape arrest in Fiji by jumping off the Navua bridge. Check out the snags in that river!
(http://fijilive.com/newsfiles/homebox/41273.jpg)
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='106004' dateline='1488236508'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='106000' dateline='1488233568'Who is Peter Foster?
Google it. Anyway, I don't think the government would be too concerned about fake 5c coins, because you can hardly buy anything with them. They're much more interested in crooks who make fake $50 and $100 notes, which is why they're replacing all our banknotes with new ones. :ok:
Yes they're only 5 cents Herc but have you seen the prices they go for, in the thousands so for the humble 5 cent it's a HUGE mark up.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='106010' dateline='1488241512'Quote
Peter Foster is a well known serial conman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Foster).
In 2006 he tried to escape arrest in Fiji by jumping off the Navua bridge. Check out the snags in that river!
(http://fijilive.com/newsfiles/homebox/41273.jpg)
Shame he didn't get caught up in them Jeff :dodgy:
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='106010' dateline='1488241512'Peter Foster is a well known serial conman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Foster).
In 2006 he tried to escape arrest in Fiji by jumping off the Navua bridge. Check out the snags in that river!
Golfing friend lives close to his latest home,Police dug the backyard up last W/end.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/conman-peter-foster-a-flight-risk-facing-new-charges-after-false-irish-passport-found-in-byron-bay-backyard/news-story/2f53b91504e01a9004e49146b490197c
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106013' dateline='1488246878'Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='106004' dateline='1488236508'Google it. Anyway, I don't think the government would be too concerned about fake 5c coins, because you can hardly buy anything with them. They're much more interested in crooks who make fake $50 and $100 notes, which is why they're replacing all our banknotes with new ones. :ok:
Yes they're only 5 cents Herc but have you seen the prices they go for, in the thousands so for the humble 5 cent it's a HUGE mark up.
It's not coin collectors they're worried about. It's the general community. If you receive a double-headed 5c in your change, you've only lost 5c. Most people wouldn't bat an eyelid over that.
A boycott on these sort of things by the collecting community would put a stop to this sort of nonsense But unfortunately there are far too many dodgy and greedy people in the community for this to have any effect :cray::dash1:
A few people have commented on how quickly they think double headed coins would be spotted in circulation.
I think the chance that the average person would spot one is very close to zero.
Other than collectors, virtually no one even looks at coins when they are using them, let alone looking at both sides and paying enough attention to spot that both sides are the same.
There is a lot of speculation and theories in this thread, but very little verified facts.
Eg "It was a woman smuggling them out". Is this true? Is it false? Has it been spread to muddy the waters and in fact it was a bloke smuggling them out?
Surely staff go through metal detectors and these would still be detected anyway (wherever they were hidden)?
Did someone make a whole die run of these by mistake (or as a prank)?
Maybe a die was incorrectly made and that allowed the wrong die to be used?
If they were in fact made in error, would the mint say "We made a mistake."? Or would they say "A bad staff member did it,"?
None of what I have just said should be taken as "Ozcoins thinks these are legitimate errors".
I still think that these are dodgy, it's just frustrating that there are so few verifiable facts and people are posting things (without any proof) as if they are facts.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='106027' dateline='1488268089'I think the chance that the average person would spot one is very close to zero.
Other than collectors, virtually no one even looks at coins when they are using them, let alone looking at both sides and paying enough attention to spot that both sides are the same.
:agreed:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106005' dateline='1488237681'Counterfeiting is a criminal act regardless of the denomination chosen, It is also a criminal act to steal government property.
You have to remember that it wasn't THAT long ago people were Hung for "Coining", So it is not exactly a "Misdemeanour" offence.
"Don't steal, the government hates competition"
Until the 18th century women guilty of fake coins were burnt at the stake. In 1777 a 16 year old girl was sentenced to burn but was saved by the Marquess of Bath. IIRC at least one female convict transported to Australia had originally been sentenced to burn.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='105990' dateline='1488201018'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='105987' dateline='1488195642'The fed's should be all over this sort of thing but they don't seem to care so what's the use of them :dodgy:
They're too busy focusing on those who are easy to catch. Not too dusty having "I rounded up Peter Foster seventeen times" on your C.V. I suppose :laugh2:
OK I Google this bloke. No David Gee mind you
Just a megalomaniac greedy conman
At least david Gee had a passion and drive for the art of coin making
Even that deserves more kudos than a couple of Norti mint employees fiddling with dies in the production rooms on public holidays or a mong tel. Conning investers with fake health products and fake betting businesses
As for the 5c no skill in that
Sheer greed and conciously being deceptive under the public service management act
And yes I agree that workplace behavior in a mint should be investigated by the federal police
Like many 'error' coins they are still deemed to be genuine circulating coinage after having been manufactured at an official mint
So it's tricky
But the employees are behaving in a criminal manner IMO
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='106015' dateline='1488254478'Golfing friend lives close to his latest home,Police dug the backyard up last W/end.
Dodgy link there. Try this one:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/conman-peter-foster-a-flight-risk-facing-new-charges-after-false-irish-passport-found-in-byron-bay-backyard/news-story/2f53b91504e01a9004e49146b490197c
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='106037' dateline='1488276628'workplace behavior in a mint should be investigated by the federal police
Trust me, it is. I once had a federal microscope inserted where de sun don't shine because as the only person in the computer centre with an interest in computers, I was the obvious suspect when some junk terminals disappeared from a storeroom. It was a huge pain in the bum as they searched our house from top to bottom, to no avail of course.
So yes, they WOULD have investigated, even over 5 cents. And no, they wouldn't say anything about it, unless there was a leak or a PR or political angle to it.
Quote from: 'Hercules' pid='105962' dateline='1488188352'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='105950' dateline='1488179892'From my noodling, i would say 5c get heaps of circulation (and therefore travel).
Why? Because I almost never find an old (say pre 1975) 5c in nice condition, while it happens that I find old 50c in quite nice condition.
That's probably because they're commemoratives, and people hoard them. All of the non-commemorative 50c coins I find of that vintage are just as worn as the 5c ones.
Not just commemoratives.
There are not a lot of them, but I regularly find quite nice Coat of Arms coins before 1977.
On the other hand, I almost never find a 5c before 1976 that is 8n good condition.
I also look at many more 5c than 50c too as they tie up less money to get.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106040' dateline='1488277153'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='106015' dateline='1488254478'Golfing friend lives close to his latest home,Police dug the backyard up last W/end.
Dodgy link there. Try this one:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/conman-peter-foster-a-flight-risk-facing-new-charges-after-false-irish-passport-found-in-byron-bay-backyard/news-story/2f53b91504e01a9004e49146b490197c
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='106037' dateline='1488276628'workplace behavior in a mint should be investigated by the federal police
Trust me, it is. I once had a federal microscope inserted where de sun don't shine because as the only person in the computer centre with an interest in computers, I was the obvious suspect when some junk terminals disappeared from a storeroom. It was a huge pain in the bum as they searched our house from top to bottom, to no avail of course.
So yes, they WOULD have investigated, even over 5 cents. And no, they wouldn't say anything about it, unless there was a leak or a PR or political angle to it.
How did they get a warrant to search your property on a silly hunch?
I've noodled $2k of 5c but haven't found one yet but I'll keep searching
Don't really like my chances of finding one but you never know
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='106083' dateline='1488357904'How did they get a warrant to search your property on a silly hunch?
AFP doesn't need one, at least for employees.
Our friend Wendy has one for sale from our favourite slabber
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-2007-DOUBLE-HEAD-DOUBLE-OBVERSE-5-CENT-AU-58-ERROR-COIN-/112100242611?hash=item1a19b1f4b3:g:V5wAAOSwIgNXtpu2
Double tail quick this is another bargain from our friend
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUSTRALIA-DOUBLE-TAIL-5-CENT-MS-61-ERROR-COIN-/112100246256?hash=item1a19b202f0:g:yfMAAOSwawpXtch-#viTabs_0
I am not a big error collector But I do appreciate a true Mint error and more importantly "How" the particular errors were created accidentally.
These Mint Sport double sided coins and other "Error" coins that were deliberately created inside the Mint hold absolutely NO appeal or interest for Me personally.
I think of them as Shed Jobs that are created in a better Shed :ok:
'Mint Sheddies' perhaps?
Sounds like a bag of lollies, eh? :angel:
This subject has had some light Shed on it now. :)
Quote from: 'gnome' pid='106364' dateline='1488940746'Shed on it
:laugh2: ..... would that involve a slab G?
:mafia:
Hi All, we dont get on here much nor post. Just want to take opportunity to say thanks to contributors as when we do scroll through you've make us think twice at times about coins we are looking at, regards ErikP
What about all the errors that are for sale in the next Noble auction. Several 1975 decimal coins which are either double tails or double heads. Also a tall ships 50c struck on a 10c flan, a rams head 50c struck on a 10c flan and a millennium 50c struck on a 20c flan!
I think that it was the quantity that raises suspicion. Most respectable dealers would report a large number to the police and they'd perhaps be confiscated
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='106377' dateline='1488955185'What about all the errors that are for sale in the next Noble auction. Several 1975 decimal coins which are either double tails or double heads. Also a tall ships 50c struck on a 10c flan, a rams head 50c struck on a 10c flan and a millennium 50c struck on a 20c flan!
I wonder if the same person submitted all those 'errors'.
Possibly the same ex RAM employee with the Double headed 5c.
Coincidence?? Hardly likely, with them all for sale at the same Auction. Seems like someone needs some cash urgently.
Lots of varieties in the upcoming Downies, IAG and Nobles auctions as well :yahoo: Nothing suspicious about those though :)
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='106377' dateline='1488955185'What about all the errors that are for sale in the next Noble auction.
Wrong planchets sneak through fairly regularly, because to the factory workers producing them, they're just barrels of metal, and they're not going to lose any sleep over the odd planchet going into the wrong drum.
Its really only the things that can't be accidentally produced that are a problem. Sure, you could strike and steal a pile of mules, but there would be no way to tell they were dodgy rather than genuine errors.
See my comment in the other thread about legality.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='106393' dateline='1489016184'Lots of varieties in the upcoming Downies, IAG and Nobles auctions as well :yahoo: Nothing suspicious about those though :)
http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot?id=372221
(http://i.imgur.com/k13yTW7.jpg)
QuoteNothing suspicious about those though
It's in a "Downies" Auction so it Has to be "Kosher" :dash1:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='106417' dateline='1489102309'It's in a "Downies" Auction so it Has to be "Kosher" :dash1:
Downies are like the TPGs. Their income doesn't come from the "Kosherness" of what passes through their hands, but rather from the fact that it passed through their hands in the first place.
Win, Lose or Draw, the house always wins.
You did notice the " " used when is said "Kosher, Pretty much the same as Markn's "grader" comment :angel:
Yep. I did.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='106442' dateline='1489142579'Yep. I did.
:)
From the Royal Australian Mints Facebook & Twitter accounts
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/5%20cent_zps2gadc1tg.jpg)
I wonder how the mint explains this "mistake" :scratch_one-s_head:
The obverse look to be better than the obverse :blink: :mocking:
Is that really on the RAM Facebook page? I'm guessing both dies are made from the same master hub but one is likely to better than the other. Who knows how many coins were struck before this one?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='106703' dateline='1489533948'Is that really on the RAM Facebook page? I'm guessing both dies are made from the same master hub but one is likely to better than the other. Who knows how many coins were struck before this one?
Both Facebook & Twitter
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='106702' dateline='1489533573'The obverse look to be better than the obverse :blink: :mocking:
LOL
So whose picture did the RAM use on their fb page, or do they have one of their own to photograph.
It looks more like a FB image, surely the RAM could do better than that? In all probability, if current theory is correct re smuggling and clandestine manufacture, the RAM would not have one, surely?
Are the RAM trying to "legitimise" this coin???
Pedro
I love it how it says (in a slightly earlier post):
"One of the reasons the Mint needs to produce new coins is because so many are sitting in jars, money boxes or down the backs of many couches. The Reserve Bank estimates that each Australian has $37 worth of coins around the house."
It makes me wonder just how many have been removed by us noodlers. :D
I think I may have my $37 worth; well, maybe a little more. And there is $3 inside our couch that I can't get out (slippery little suckers!). :dash1:
Pedro
:yahoo: I'm rich, I'm rich, I'm rich..now to find this $37 :blink:
If everyone has $37, start at your neighbours place first. Don't tell them what your doing if they catch you with your hand down the back of their couch. Or in their moneybox. :) Or start with pedros couch.
:laugh2: always trying to get me in trouble G, you know I'm an :angel:
I don't know why they even bother making new coins, because I keep most of them anyway. :grin:
It's because of people like us they have to make new coins Herc :laugh2:
The article does seem to legitamise these coins... seeing as the mint posted it to their facebook page, as previously mentioned in this thread. Even speculates a mintage for this type of coin at 700. So not mint sport?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4307326/Australian-5c-pieces-fetch-thousands-dollars.html
Quote from: dailymailNow there's a 5 CENT coin worth $2000: Collector sells his rare double- headed 'mule' for thousands - and there's another 699 in circulation
The Australian 5c piece could be worth thousands more than its face value
A coin collector discovered a 'doubled headed' coin which was minted in 2007
Steve Treha found the coin after getting change from a Surry Hills coffee shop
There is less than one thousand of the rare coin in circulation across Australia
Most Australians toss aside the pesky 5c pieces they find tucked into the corners of wallets and stuck in between the couch.
But the tiny coin could be worth upwards of $2000 dollars if it has the rare markings that eagle-eyed collectors are on the lookout for.
Coin collector Steve Treha from Town Hall Coins & Collectables stumbled upon a 2007 5c Double Heads piece when paying for his coffee in Surry Hills.
Mr Treha sold the rare coin - which has the Queen's head showing on both sides - for $1000 and it was then sold again for $2000.
The coin was minted accidentally with the reverse and obverse having the same design, and Mr Treha said only about 600 to 700 pieces like this escaped the mint.
'This coin was struck in 2007 and was first discovered in 2008 in change from a coffee shop on Commonwealth Street near the old Billy Hydes Drum Craft', Mr Treha told Daily Mail Australia.
'The first example sold privately for $1,000 in Uncirculated quality and that same example sold soon after for $2,000. More were discovered a few months later around the Sydney CBD area and the Balmain/Rozelle area.'
Mr Treha said it is likely that the Royal Australian Mint discovered the error shortly after dispatching the coins and they were all sent to the same area in NSW.
He said: 'They have scarcely been found outside of NSW due to natural circulation patterns. Having come across 20 to 30 examples since 2008, I'd estimate a mintage of just under a thousand coins.'
'This is hard to pin down due to the 5c being a neglected coin. The exciting part of that is many people have jars of 5c lying around and it is definitely worthwhile having a check through these.'
Rare 'error' coins like Mr Treha's double head piece can also be found on eBay for hundreds of dollars.
Coin collectors are willing to pay a high price for coins that were damaged in the minting process, with one even selling for $4000.
One coin which was stuck the wrong way during mintage is selling online for $490 and a similar 5c piece is on eBay for $149.
The $1/10c mule coin, created in 2000, is also worth much more than its face value, with some being sold for more than $2,700 on eBay, according to coin collectors.
The coin must bear the 2000 date and is thicker than usual with a double rim on the Queen's side of the coin because of a mix-up at the Royal Australian Mint in Canberra, according to the Australian Coin Collecting Blog.
'The mule was made when a technician at the Mint in Canberra accidentally paired the mob of 'roos dollar reverse with the Queen's head obverse, normally used for the 10 cent piece,' the blog clarified.
Asking prices on eBay range from $980 to $8,500 but the final auction prices for the coin appear to range from $400 to $2,742.
'The value of your rare coin will now depend on the condition after spending 17 years in circulation some coins are more valuable than others,' the Australian Coin Collecting Blog said.
The coin's error was not realised until a year or two after it was released into circulation, and coin collectors claim they picked up on it in 2003.
'The majority of the 2000 $1 / 10 cent Mules were sent to Perth, where in 2003 and 2004 there was a frenzy of 'mule' hunting in the local casino and lots of dollar coins were withdrawn from Perth banks,' collectors said in 2009.
'The 'mule' hunt has slowed in the last few years as the number available in circulation is slowly reduced and diluted around the rest of Australia.'
'But, the mules are still out there to be found by those willing to look.'
Read more: The Australian Coin Collecting Blog
Quote from: 'LooseChange' pid='106748' dateline='1489568232'The article does seem to legitamise these coins... seeing as the mint posted it to their facebook page, as previously mentioned in this thread. Even speculates a mintage for this type of coin at 700. So not mint sport?
Firstly, I don't take everything the mint says at face value. Secondly, I think the arguments made by other collectors on this forum are sound. The only way these coins could have been created is by using a proof press, and because they still found their way into circulation, it seems like a deliberate act. How many other proof coins do you know of that are actively circulating? :dontknow:
Yes I think the mint is just trying to cover up that they have no clue as to what their employees are doing and if so why employ someone that doesn't know their head from their arse and puts wrong dies in million dollar machines...very suss, and how would they know the mintages unless they gave the go ahead to do it :dodgy:
And why aren't these people getting sacked if they're that useless.
QuoteSo not mint sport?
I call BS on that.
RAM is very good at producing alternative facts, I too think that they are just covering up for one of their own here.
What a load of cobblers and after 10 years how the hell can RAM come up with a definitive figure of 700 coins created by mint sport all of a sudden.
Quote from: 'LooseChange' pid='106748' dateline='1489568232'So not mint sport?
Not one word of that came from the mint. It came from a dealer who claims to have found 20 or 30 of these, in high grade.
I am somewhat bemused that the RAM is spreading this on FB and Twitter. Maybe they are trying to cover up, given that clearly some did make it into the wild. But who knows? When have we ever had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth out of the mint?
If I ever find one, I'll stash it with the rest of the stuff I've found. But no way am I ever paying more than 5 cents for one, no matter how much hype there is.
And one day, I WILL get back up there and pursue this in person, with the people on the shop floor.