This particular Coin has some minor differences to my other Eng. Obverse's egs.,i was just wondering if its a standard 'dot under' example. TIA.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0001~10.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0002~7.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Fri_Feb_26_13-53-55.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2016_02_29_13h31m25s_001_.png)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/bob_1920_uk_fd_ind2.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/die_chip_on_E.jpg)
Die chip top of E in Penny. About 1 in 3 are from this pair
Thanks Neal,i assume its a 'Dot Under'?,although it looks like a Dot it won't show under magnification.
Is this Die chip you are talking about?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2016_02_29_16h54m16s_001_.png)
No, the chip is towards the left on the top of the E.
That variety are all dot under.
It also has the diagonal die crack through the A of COMMONWEALTH. There are also examples with just the die chip above E but without the die crack through A, so your coin is no doubt a later strike. This particular reverse is not found paired with the obverse that displays the die crack through IN of IND to my knowledge.
Thanks all,another variety i've never worried too much about in the past.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='85070' dateline='1456715083'Die chip top of E in Penny. About 1 in 3 are from this pair
1. Does the "Die chip top of E in Penny" only occur in one die pair i.e. English DUBS?
2. Does 1 in 3 refer to all English die pairs, all English DUBS die pairs or maybe something else like the total number of specimens found?
For instance can we infer that there are 3 English die pairs or 3 English DUBS die pairs altogether?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90686' dateline='1465942691'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='85070' dateline='1456715083'Die chip top of E in Penny. About 1 in 3 are from this pair
1. Does the "Die chip top of E in Penny" only occur in one die pair i.e. English DUBS?
2. Does 1 in 3 refer to all English die pairs, all English DUBS die pairs or maybe something else like the total number of specimens found?
For instance can we infer that there are 3 English die pairs or 3 English DUBS die pairs altogether?
Neal would be best to answer this, but I'll just muddy the waters a bit.:angel:
1. As far as I know
2. English DUBS die pairs maybe I think
:)
Muddy Waters sang, "If the river was whisky and I was a diving duck, I'd jump right in and never come up"
I reckon the first one has to be a yes, after all its a die crack which ought to be unique to just one die.
Hehe, daffy always admitted to being greedy :biggrin:
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90686' dateline='1465942691'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='85070' dateline='1456715083'Die chip top of E in Penny. About 1 in 3 are from this pair
1. Does the "Die chip top of E in Penny" only occur in one die pair i.e. English DUBS?
2. Does 1 in 3 refer to all English die pairs, all English DUBS die pairs or maybe something else like the total number of specimens found?
For instance can we infer that there are 3 English die pairs or 3 English DUBS die pairs altogether?
The variety with the die chip is about 1 in 3 of the Dot Below English. The variety with the die mark through IND is about 2 in 3 of the Dot Below English and there are 3 known die pairs with the English obverse (the third pair being the really rare Dot Above English). I've never seen any of the three reverse or three obverse dies paired with any other die.
Thank you Neal.
So, the London obverse die is paired with two DUBS reverse dies. The "die chip top of E" type represents 1/3 and the "die mark through IND" type represents 2/3 of the total. These die pairs may or may not have been exhausted during production and in any case the number of examples extant today is what it is.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90781' dateline='1466012856'Thank you Neal.
So, the London obverse die is paired with two DUBS reverse dies. The "die chip top of E" type represents 1/3 and the "die mark through IND" type represents 2/3 of the total. These die pairs may or may not have been exhausted during production and in any case the number of examples extant today is what it is.
Not quite, TWO different London obverse dies are paired with two DUBS reverse dies. One obverse die has the line IND and the other doesn't. The rare third obverse die (Dot Above pairing) has a defect in FD.
Rats, of course I should have twigged that "IND" is on every obverse. Please be patient a bit longer, I'm nearly there.
1. London obverse with "die mark through IND" paired with DUBS reverse without "die chip top of E".
and
2. London obverse without "die mark through IND" paired with DUBS reverse with "die chip top of E". According to autocoupler this second type can also have a "diagonal die crack through the A of COMMONWEALTH" but this is optional.
3. The rare third London obverse paired with DOBS reverse has a defect in FD.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it might also be the case that all the London obverse dies are paired with FBL reverse dies?
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='90798' dateline='1466039290'Rats, of course I should have twigged that "IND" is on every obverse. Please be patient a bit longer, I'm nearly there.
1. London obverse with "die mark through IND" paired with DUBS reverse without "die chip top of E".
and
2. London obverse without "die mark through IND" paired with DUBS reverse with "die chip top of E". According to autocoupler this second type can also have a "diagonal die crack through the A of COMMONWEALTH" but this is optional.
3. The rare third London obverse paired with DOBS reverse has a defect in FD.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it might also be the case that all the London obverse dies are paired with FBL reverse dies?
Spot on for all points. Although the die crack through the A isn't exactly optional but a marker for late stage strikes from that die pair.
Agreed, I was loose with my language, die cracks can develop over time. Thanks again for checking my work.
Interesting coin,you don't see these every day,i didn't think it was possible to get a clip from 1920 Pennies because of how the blanks were manufactured but i may be getting my Info. mixed up as this clip looks genuine,Blakesly side of things is a bit iffy thou.Hard to get a good shot of the clip.The rim error over "BRITT" is a bit different on this Coin to other eg's i have as well.
Anyone seen this before or has an opinion? TIA
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope_Light_New00002.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope_Light_New00004.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1_UKobv1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1_UKi.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1_UKobv123456789.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1_UKobvz123.jpg)
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='91348' dateline='1466749202'i didn't think it was possible to get a clip from 1920 Pennies because of how the blanks were manufactured
I can't help with your question Basil but I have to ask how the blanks were manufactured?
Me either, but as you indicated the Blakesly effect doesn't appear to be apparent IMO. No doubt it's a filled dot below given the rim flaw over BRITT, and interestingly the die crack through IND to my eyes has not happened as yet, but can just make out the depressions below and left of bottom scroll and below P. Interesting coin Basil :good:
Could it be an end of sheet coin or is there some other way to pick them :scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91352' dateline='1466751075'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='91348' dateline='1466749202'i didn't think it was possible to get a clip from 1920 Pennies because of how the blanks were manufactured
I can't help with your question Basil but I have to ask how the blanks were manufactured?
I'm not sure myself,i just have it in the back of my mind that they weren't punched out of sheets like in later Mint practices but someone on here should know one way or the other.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='91380' dateline='1466769134'Could it be an end of sheet coin or is there some other way to pick them :scratch_one-s_head:
Not sure AJ,i'll try and get some better Pics. on the W/end.
That edge looks like PMD, an edge clip wouldn't show such well formed denticles at the clip, plus no weakness on the opposing side. Perhaps a kid rubbed the edge against concrete 60-80 years ago. Have a look at the 1925 penny with an edge clip that Trout posted a few months ago to see what a genuine edge clip penny looks like.
The mints produced their own bronze by melting down the copper, tin and zinc, rolled it, stamped out the blanks etc. Even the metal (was mostly from local mines and smelters (such as Cu from South Australia).
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91384' dateline='1466771400'The mints produced their own bronze by melting down the copper, tin and zinc, rolled it, stamped out the blanks etc. Even the metal (was mostly from local mines and smelters (such as Cu from South Australia).
Ok,but i read an article many years ago that procedure for stamping blanks when the Oz Mints first started minting Coins was changed some where along line to a more efficient,less waste and more blanks per sheet, method and that's why its rare to see a genuine clip in the early Coins.
I will try and find the article,copy may be on my Win.98 machine,and post along with some better Pics. of the Coin.The clip part looks fine,very similar to the box of clipped coins i have but the Blakesly side of things just looks like damage which is a worry.
I imagine quite a bit of machinery was required to produce the alloy, roll it and stamp out the blanks. Presumably it was rolled into sheets and then cut up into strips. No doubt a lot of manual labour was required as well but that was probably plentiful enough.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91411' dateline='1466821387'I imagine quite a bit of machinery was required to produce the alloy, roll it and stamp out the blanks. Presumably it was rolled into sheets and then cut up into strips. No doubt a lot of manual labour was required as well but that was probably plentiful enough.
Yeah,IIRC the first copper blanks used at the Oz. Mints came from India,it took a while for Oz produced blanks to start flowing and again IIRC they changed production methods more than once as originally they were gearing up for square coinage and it took 2-3 years before the protagionists for square currency were overcome.As i stated previously i have a copy of a article on early coin minting in Oz somewhere,i'll try and find it as my memory is a bit vague on the subject.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='91422' dateline='1466854951'Quote from: 'r9453' pid='91411' dateline='1466821387'I imagine quite a bit of machinery was required to produce the alloy, roll it and stamp out the blanks. Presumably it was rolled into sheets and then cut up into strips. No doubt a lot of manual labour was required as well but that was probably plentiful enough.
Yeah,IIRC the first copper blanks used at the Oz. Mints came from India,it took a while for Oz produced blanks to start flowing and again IIRC they changed production methods more than once as originally they were gearing up for square coinage and it took 2-3 years before the protagionists for square currency were overcome.As i stated previously i have a copy of a article on early coin minting in Oz somewhere,i'll try and find it as my memory is a bit vague on the subject.
I know that Sydney was making their own blanks for the 1920 production. There was an initial batch of dies from India (plus hubs) for the 1920 penny. I doubt that blanks (bronze, not copper) were ever sent from India, it isn't hard to smelt bronze and the mints had all the necessary equipment to roll and stamp as they had been doing it for gold and silver.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91425' dateline='1466860524'I know that Sydney was making their own blanks for the 1920 production.
Ok,i won't argue as without actual documentation/proof your statements hold as much water as mine.The Indian blanks,again IIRC,were offloaded in Melb. but may have ended up in Sydney,who knows.The best thing is for me is to find the article i've been referring to and post here,i have it somewhere but wasted a couple of hours looking for it last night,i think Gilbert Heyde had something to do with it so some of the older members on here may have a copy or remember it.
Found one in a bulklot this week.Not sure if PCGS will grade it though
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20b~0.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20a~2.jpg)
Yeah,looks like the same Dies as the 'çlipped' coin i just posted,depression under 'P' and lower Scroll on reverse and similar Rim disturbance over 'Britt' but yours has the die crack thru 'ÍND'.I'm sure its gradeable.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='91439' dateline='1466900576'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91425' dateline='1466860524'I know that Sydney was making their own blanks for the 1920 production.
Ok,i won't argue as without actual documentation/proof your statements hold as much water as mine.The Indian blanks,again IIRC,were offloaded in Melb. but may have ended up in Sydney,who knows.The best thing is for me is to find the article i've been referring to and post here,i have it somewhere but wasted a couple of hours looking for it last night,i think Gilbert Heyde had something to do with it so some of the older members on here may have a copy or remember it.
The Sydney mint records from that era record under
Plants and Melting for the 7th July 1920
Quotation for Penny Bar Moulds. The
Working Ledger for the 11th of January 1921 records last penny bars and for 12th January 1921 the last scissel from coining department. I think that counts as actual documentation/proof (scissel is the webbing left from the sheets after the rounds are stamped out).
Now
IF any blanks were sent from India [/i]then they might have been offloaded in Melbourne (for the initial run of 1919 pennies).
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='91450' dateline='1466909101'Found one in a bulklot this week.Not sure if PCGS will grade it though
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20b~0.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20a~2.jpg)
Looks like you've been getting a few nice coins from this batch Stevo, well done mate :good:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='91486' dateline='1466937617'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='91450' dateline='1466909101'Found one in a bulklot this week.Not sure if PCGS will grade it though
Looks like you've been getting a few nice coins from this batch Stevo, well done mate :good:
Thanks AJ got a heap of 1933 overdates , a 1920 double dot , a 1927 indian obverse and a 1921 english obv as well as a few 1922 , 1924 and 1929 indian obv coins from a previously well searched lot
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91483' dateline='1466935499'The Sydney mint records from that era record under Plants and Melting for the 7th July 1920 Quotation for Penny Bar Moulds. The Working Ledger for the 11th of January 1921 records last penny bars and for 12th January 1921 the last scissel from coining department. I think that counts as actual documentation/proof (scissel is the webbing left from the sheets after the rounds are stamped out).
Now IF any blanks were sent from India [/i]then they might have been offloaded in Melbourne (for the initial run of 1919 pennies).
Neal,reset,i have a 1920 English Obv. with a Reverse i haven't seen before,more dots than a Doris Day dress.Its not my coin so when i get the OK to post Pics.,probaly later next week,i will do so.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='91439' dateline='1466900576'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91425' dateline='1466860524'I know that Sydney was making their own blanks for the 1920 production.
Ok,i won't argue as without actual documentation/proof your statements hold as much water as mine.The Indian blanks,again IIRC,were offloaded in Melb. but may have ended up in Sydney,who knows.The best thing is for me is to find the article i've been referring to and post here,i have it somewhere but wasted a couple of hours looking for it last night,i think Gilbert Heyde had something to do with it so some of the older members on here may have a copy or remember it.
found this
https://www.amazon.com/Coins-Information-interested-beginners-collectors/dp/B0007JJU5A?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='91496' dateline='1466945498'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='91439' dateline='1466900576'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91425' dateline='1466860524'I know that Sydney was making their own blanks for the 1920 production.
Ok,i won't argue as without actual documentation/proof your statements hold as much water as mine.The Indian blanks,again IIRC,were offloaded in Melb. but may have ended up in Sydney,who knows.The best thing is for me is to find the article i've been referring to and post here,i have it somewhere but wasted a couple of hours looking for it last night,i think Gilbert Heyde had something to do with it so some of the older members on here may have a copy or remember it.
found this
https://www.amazon.com/Coins-Information-interested-beginners-collectors/dp/B0007JJU5A?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
I have a copy, I'll check it tonight.:idea:
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='91496' dateline='1466945498'I know that Sydney was making their own blanks for the 1920 production.
found this
https://www.amazon.com/Coins-Information-interested-beginners-collectors/dp/B0007JJU5A?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
[/quote]
No,that not it RG,i have had a copy of that book since i was at School,i just flicked thru it.It was probably in one of the Numismatic Association(NSW?) newsletters from the 1940/50' or even 60's,it was a long time ago.
My memory tells me that it was just a statement that said there were very few genuine Clips from early Coin mintages in Oz. because of the method used to produce blanks.Anyway i won't argue the fact until i can find the relevant document,i have it somewhere.
Some scans from Heyde's Book,makes interesting reading 70 years later.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/heyde_page_4_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Heyde_page_6_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/heyde_page_38_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Heyde_page_50_resize.jpg)
Was just looking at Hints on Collecting at the bottom of page 51. Gee whiz, I've made all those mistakes :kez_11::blush:
gee thanks Basil
I will try to copy those pages
might try to source a copy
probably rare as hens teeth for sure!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='91521' dateline='1466989248'gee thanks Basil
I will try to copy those pages
might try to source a copy
probably rare as hens teeth for sure!
I find it interesting to read from time to time but its fairly basic,lots of Info. on Foreign Coins thou. which in 1946(5?) would have been very hard to obtain.
I found it while wasting time looking for early Oz. Mint Info.,i'll scan the rest of the pages later this week when i get some time and throw them in one post in this Thread.Mods can then move it if they wish.
that would be great I often download the articles the folk post here
thank-you
Interesting Coin,i haven't seen a Reverse like this before,dots all over the place,also strongest die crack thru 'Á' out of all the UK Obverse Pennies i have.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope_Light_Newuk00003.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope_Light_Newuk00007.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope_Light_Newukpenny00001.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Mon_Jun_27_13-38-50.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1920_UK_Obverse_DOTwonky_f00001.jpg)
Love the dot over N Basil :)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='91624' dateline='1467092599'Love the dot over N Basil :)
Yeah,i've never seen one before on a 1920,caused by a nice round hole/depression in the Die for whatever reason.
Interested too see what Neal thinks as he is documenting all the Die pairs.
Yep, that's a cracker of a dot.
That "dot" above the N is for the blind to know where the centre/middle of the coin is...................
Those dots are corrosion.:diablo: Spoils an otherwise nice coin.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91641' dateline='1467103065'Those dots are corrosion.:diablo: Spoils an otherwise nice coin.
Owner was told that it was caused by a worn/damaged Die and worth a few $ as a novelty but that's the usual cop-out from a Dealer when they don't know or care.
I'm not so sure with the main dot,i've never seen anything like that formed by corrosion before,solid as and seems similar to the letters underneath both in appearance and texture but i guess there is a greater chance of it being caused by chemical reactions in the metal itself than a pitted Die.
give it a bit of a tidy up
if it's corrosion it will peel off and you'll have a nice shiny spot instead!!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='91659' dateline='1467161473'give it a bit of a tidy up
if it's corrosion it will peel off and you'll have a nice shiny spot instead!!
Yeah RG,but that big dot over Penny is solid as a rock and genuinely looks part of the Coin,not like the crusty pimples/lumps you get with normal corrosion.
Its not my Coin so kinda restricted on what i can do unfortunately.
I'm confident it is corrosion, I've seen similar lumps on other pennies. Look at the pit on the leg of N, classic corrosion pit.
Also what are the chances that this coin got those lumps from a deteriorating die? We can identify the die and those faults are not known with this die, so unless the die suddenly started pitting in the last .1% of its existence it isn't a die fault.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='91682' dateline='1467190931'I'm confident it is corrosion,
No worries,glad to get your opinion,as i said i don't know much about these varieties,for over 40 years the only 1920's i was interested in was those with a Dot over the Top Scroll or Unc.
For anyone hunting for a 1920 dot over bottom scroll with London obverse there's one for sale at the moment: http://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/items/1920-penny-dot-above-bottom-scroll-london-obverse-fine
It was quickly swooped on that's for certain, I remember checking that site in the morning, and it wasn't there I'm sure. That was quite a realistic price IMO.
Yeah I thought it was well-priced too.
I recall one for sale for $5000 or so a little while ago and it was nicer than that one but still Fine.
It seems to be in a slab (has the 3 bits of edge plastic) but no numerical grade is given. So is it a details/no grade?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115971' dateline='1530918101'It seems to be in a slab (has the 3 bits of edge plastic) but no numerical grade is given. So is it a details/no grade?
Yes its a details coin.
So now 5 with grades, 2 no grades and about 20 raw
One more.
There was another (new) raw example at the Perth Stamp & Coin Show.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='115978' dateline='1530949615'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115971' dateline='1530918101'It seems to be in a slab (has the 3 bits of edge plastic) but no numerical grade is given. So is it a details/no grade?
Yes its a details coin.
The coin is rotated by about 10%.
Does anyone know if other examples are also rotated.
First I've read about rotated dies. Mine are all normal so a rotated example in such a small mintage would be ER, might even imply the mint struck the coins individually rather than as a production run (as how/why would a die move 10 degrees in striking a few seconds of production?), though if that was the case then why do some show weakness at a section of the rim (and at different sections for the examples with this problem).
Surely they wouldn't have been struck individually? I would have assumed maybe a thousand or two were struck. But that still seems like a low number for the die to be clogged enough for denticles to be almost missing.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='115986' dateline='1531029013'Surely they wouldn't have been struck individually? I would have assumed maybe a thousand or two were struck. But that still seems like a low number for the die to be clogged enough for denticles to be almost missing.
The weakness at part of the denticles is different between several examples I've seen so it isn't from a clogged die. Would have been a few hundred struck at most. Could have been a test run or die experimentation and could have been struck anytime in the 1920s using a leftover reverse and a newer obverse.
The reverse die is off centre on some strikes.
Quite visible on the PCGS pic.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35602532
These also have weaknesses in the obverse denticles.