Another coin out of a bulk buy i sorted this W/end.What attracted my attention is, what appears to be, a foreign object stamped into the lower bowl/half of the first 3,after clearing away all the muck the last 3 is different to a normal 33 half as well.
Anyone know if this is the mysterious 1933 Half Overdate thats supposed to exist.
Its similar to the one for sale on Ebay at the moment...TIA..
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LOOK-SUPER-SCARCE-1933-32-OVER-DATE-AUSTRALIAN-HALF-PENNY-PRE-DECIMAL-COIN-/161951788632?hash=item25b5142e58:g:w3UAAOSw5VFWG06W
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Forum_1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Forum_2.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Forum_3.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Forum_4.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/33_half_sbs_clip.jpg)
Normal 33 on left,my coin on right.
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.
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I've seen a few of these and I'd say that this is an overdate.
There appears to be two versions sort of like its big brother:
One has a downward spike on the tip of the 3 and the other doesnt.
The version with the spike is much scarcer and makes the overdate much more obvious.
Thanks for reply,another variety i know nothing about so your Info. is very helpful.
I think this is the other one, a little faint though.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1933_halfpenny_overdate_1.JPG)
Thanks to you both for Info.,i can see tip on that eg.I'll post a pic. for future reference.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/33_Tip_arrow.png)
It's not an overdate, it's a double struck 1933 half penny, note the tip of the 3 under the bottom loop of the 3.
With the 1933/32 overdate, the loop of the 2 is larger and there's no tip underneath the bottom loop.
(http://img.numismatics.com.au/25545/0/16777215/400x400.jpg)
Are there any diemarkers to look for as well ?
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='84910' dateline='1456447191'It's not an overdate, it's a double struck 1933 half penny,
OK,it certainly doesn't look like an overdate compared to the Penny or 34 3d but why is only the last number in the date affected if its a double strike?.
To me,and its not a coin i'm familiar with, it looks like the last 3 strike is part of the die itself for whatever reason.
I need some instruction on this, but for the moment I'm with Basil.
Question, Is the term "double struck" referring to the striking of the actual coin during the minting process, or the process of impressing the last 3 during production of the master die?
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='84955' dateline='1456532473'I need some instruction on this, but for the moment I'm with Basil.
Question, Is the term "double struck" referring to the striking of the actual coin during the minting process, or the process of impressing the last 3 during production of the master die?
gawd..i don't know,my Coin qualifications come from the Dodgy Bros. but i have collected these things called Coins for over 50 years and have read many books over that time.
AFAIK(without spending all day on Google)the Die is cut on a lathe from the Master Hub,i don't think Walter is referring to that but time will tell.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='84957' dateline='1456534547'..... my Coin qualifications come from the Dodgy Bros .....
:laugh2: ..... I still laugh to myself about the two and a half inch hose bits!!!
Walter may be referring to this...
http://www.triton.vg/overdate.html
However,Ian McConnelly photo in the CAB article has the tip protuding from the lower half of the last 3 as well as these egs. that were auctioned.TBH,IMO,it doesn't resemble an overdate in any shape or form but obviously something is going on with the last 3 compared to the run of the mill 1933 Half.
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6287
http://www.drakesterling.com/sold-coins/products/19332-overdate-halfpenny
http://www.downies.com/aca/auction309/aca/images/lots/309/1182.jpg
The latest one on Ebay has sold for $200+,i think that is the highest i've seen on Ebay.It has the tip protuding from the lower loop of the 3 although photo has been blurred.
My brother(i owe him for some coins he gave me) wants to list mine,almost exactly the same as the one sold,but i'm not sure.I might wait for some more Info.,one way or the other, to become mainstream in the Coin world.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LOOK-HIGH-VALUED-COIN-1933-32-OVERDATE-HALF-PENNY-RARER-THAN-1923-PRE-DECIMAL-/162012408788?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=J6HucXYMJ6LISpfwdcOADNrATEI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
I've never see a 33 half like this before,maybe there is an overdate 1933 Half-penny.
It looks like the whole 3 is doubled except for the peak at the top of the 3.I had a similar Penny coin years ago and the local Dealer told me it had moved in the collar(?) when struck.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1933-32-Half-Penny-Overdate-Nice-Example-/191839405450?hash=item2caa85058a:g:P4IAAOSw6wRW~cKy
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='86457' dateline='1459509561'I've never see a 33 half like this before,maybe there is an overdate 1933 Half-penny. It looks like the whole 3 is doubled except for the peak at the top of the 3.I had a similar Penny coin years ago and the local Dealer told me it had moved in the collar(?) when struck.
To me it looks like it might be a 33/33, but certainly not a 33/32.
Yeah,i'm not sure,only thing i'm certain of is i haven't seen an eg. like that before.I'll post a Pic. for future reference as Ebay links stop working after 3 Months.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/main_PM_33_half_OD.JPG)
This is the other 33 Half 'OD' he has listed.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/33_half_od_PM.JPG)
Thank's for posting Basil, that first one is sweet. :good:
My brother picked this up in a bulk buy at Xmas,i've seen photo's of a similar Coin but its the first one i've studied in the flesh.Always skeptical of the 1933 Half O/D but this extremely rare eg seems to show someone has been playing around with the last 3 on the Die as the first 3 numbers are fine.... Thoughts?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Snap_Arrow_2_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1933_half_OD_Tone3.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1933_half_OD_Tone7.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1933_half_OD_Tone5.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1933_half_OD_Tone10.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1933_half_OD_Tone12.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/I1933_half_od_resize.jpg)
I may well be way off the mark Basil, but this is my slant on the subject. Just looking at your previous pics from post #16, the top pic displays a step around the inner edge of both arcs of the second 3. To me this looks like a botched job by the apprentice when stamping the die, who initially used an inappropriate 3 stamp that displayed an exaggerated pointed extension from the top loop, and then tried to cover his tracks by over stamping with another punch which had the same profile as that used for the first 3. Unfortunately, the meaty part in the area of the centre cleft, wasn't quite wide enough to fully hide the first stamping and so a step was formed.
The shallowness of the initial errant strike could simply be due to the mint worker checking correct alignment of the punch before continuing with a heavier blow.
The same mistake was probably made on a second die, and either by design or by good luck, a 3 stamp with a wider centre cleft area was selected which didn't leave a step when over stamped.
The second pic in post #16, as well as your latest pic both display a wider centre cleft area of the second 3 than what is evident on the first 3, and therefore no step.
In both cases though, the fix could not hide the larger profile of the top loop from the initial errant punch. Whether right or wrong, a 3 over a 3 is just as good as a 3 over a 2 :scratch_one-s_head:;)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='107454' dateline='1491315249'I may well be way off the mark Basil, but this is my slant on the subject. Just looking at your previous pics from post #16, the top pic displays a step around the inner edge of both arcs of the second 3. To me this looks like a botched job by the apprentice when stamping the die, who initially used an inappropriate 3 stamp that displayed an exaggerated pointed extension from the top loop, and then tried to cover his tracks by over stamping with another punch which had the same profile as that used for the first 3. Unfortunately, the meaty part in the area of the centre cleft, wasn't quite wide enough to fully hide the first stamping and so a step was formed.
Thanks for reply,and i agree,it looks like a 3 over 3 to my eyes as well,there are very few of this particular eg. around so they must have had a second go with the Die. at some stage(or retired it).
Even with the 33/32 egs. sold by Dealers over the last few years i can't see the 2 only doubling of the 3.
Its an interesting Coin with the tongue sticking out of the top of the 3 but the only thing i'm sure of is someone has been playing around with the last 3 on the Die.
The 1933/2 overdate should not have any part of a lower loop of the 3 and the 2nd 3 should have a tip to it (which the double die 3 doesn't have).
The Museum of Victoria coin is a good example:
https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/57452
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='107836' dateline='1492627372'The 1933/2 overdate should not have any part of a lower loop of the 3 and the 2nd 3 should have a tip to it (which the double die 3 doesn't have).
The Museum of Victoria coin is a good example:
https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/57452
Thanks for the reply Walter,i'll throw a Pic. up of that eg. for future Ref.,best i can do from original photo.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Vic_Museum_33_od_medium_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Vic_Museum_33_od_medium_resize22.jpg)
Any thoughts on this one.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF6151_edited.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF6154_edited.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF6154aaa1_edited.jpg)
No expert or even knowlegable on these(i never heard of the Half OD until i read about it on a Stamp Forum several years ago) but i don't think so,may need a better Pic.,USB Microscopes are great for getting in close on the 3.
I have a similar Coin somewhere with some sort of Cud/projection in the lower loop,another project to try and find it.
The Coins on Ebay(and some dealers) being passed off as the 33 Half OD look like a re-entered or re-punched 3.
I phoned one dealer about 3 years ago that had one for sale and he referred me to this site......
Edit....Link no longer working so i'll throw up Eric's page.
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6287
http://www.drakesterling.com/sold-coins/products/19332-overdate-halfpenny
He said the "doubling/bevelling" of the top loop of the 3 was the re-working of the Die to get rid of the remnants of the 2 and later Mints did not have the tip protuding but were still regarded as an O/D but surely that's an opinion more than fact.
Thanks Basil. :) I reckon they're 3 3 as well. My scope doesn't want to work on this new computer.
Are you running Windows 10? It basically refuses to run USB scopes and webcams.
I read somewhere it is because Microsoft "improved" W10 in an update to allow cameras to interface with a multitude of apps -or something like that. That sounds like Microsoft!
Yes Jeff, :), seem to be always having a few probs with pics lately. Using 3 different programs to try and sort a half decent pic.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='108901' dateline='1495873447'Are you running Windows 10? It basically refuses to run USB scopes and webcams. I read somewhere it is because Microsoft "improved" W10 in an update to allow cameras to interface with a multitude of apps -or something like that. That sounds like Microsoft!
Now don't ask me any questions about how, but my USB runs perfectly on Windows10, no differently than it was on Win7.
No thanks to me as I haven't got a clue, but my son keeps my PC going well and all the techie stuff is in his head.
Same ere Nevol. I can do the basics but when it becomes, Scott (son), come over and rescue me.
Oops, off subject, sorry mods. I have just checked my halfpennies and no overprint there.
Any thoughts on this one?,another one of my Brothers Coins from a bulk buy,hard to get angle right with USB Scope but looks like the remains of the top loop of a 2.Different to my other possible half overdates but they were experimenting with Dies at the time to try and save money(or at least that's what i read).
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Ashampoo_Snap_2017_10_09_12h31m04s_001_.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/USA_Oct__2017_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/USA_Oct__2017_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/A.jpg)
The "3" on that coin just looks like it has taken a hit and has nothing to do with being an overdate .
Yeah not sure about that one sorry Basil but hope one of the gurus can help.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='112226' dateline='1507528848'The "3" on that coin just looks like it has taken a hit and has nothing to do with being an overdate .
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='112231' dateline='1507543138'Yeah not sure about that one sorry Basil but hope one of the gurus can help.
Thanks for the replies,interested in alternate views.
I can see the hit but the section in the red rectangle looks like its a separate section that blends into the top loop of the 3 about half way up.Its more evident under a Loupe at an angle but i can't get the money shot with the USB Microscope but will try again.
Don't think there's enough there to call it an overdate Basil.I've just had 3 out of 11
1933 pennies rejected by PCGS because there wasnt enough overdate material to justify them as
an overdate in their eyes but to you and me they might be overdates but what can you do ?
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='112236' dateline='1507545875'Don't think there's enough there to call it an overdate Basil.I've just had 3 out of 11
1933 pennies rejected by PCGS because there wasnt enough overdate material to justify them as
an overdate in their eyes but to you and me they might be overdates but what can you do ?
I agree,its very iffy but interested in peoples opinions as this is a different Coin to the run of the mill potential O/D.
The Vict. Museum coin is a great eg. and confirms they were experimenting with Dies. I read an opinion piece a few years ago that the 'fat' top loop of the 2nd 3 was covering the top loop of the 2 on 33 Halves.
That looks to be the case on your pics Basil, the top of that second 3 does look much thicker than the top of the first 3.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='112243' dateline='1507597507'That looks to be the case on your pics Basil, the top of that second 3 does look much thicker than the top of the first 3.
Yeah Uni.,the tip of the top loop has a small ding but it doesn't affect where it ends,the arrowed(if that's a word) section when looked at a specific angle definitely looks like its added to the top loop,not part of it if that's makes sense.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Arrows.png)
Hello fellow skeptics,i think i've found another variation on the 33 half overdate,this is the same Coin as in the above and previous Posts but under extreme magnification from a tabletop Microscope.
I had trouble getting the lighting correct,lot of reflections and shadows, but the 'hit' seems to be a extremely small bit of the top of the strike breaking off,or something like that.The top loop of the 2 is clearly visible at least to my eyes.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_3_resized.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_4_resized.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_12_resized.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_Green_Arrows_resize.jpg)
The only way to confirm/refute the overdate is to find a couple of die markers on this coin and then search a few hundred other '33s to find more examples. If it is a genuine overdate then the other examples will also show the same defect in the top of the 3.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='112302' dateline='1507907696'The only way to confirm/refute the overdate is to find a couple of die markers on this coin and then search a few hundred other '33s to find more examples. If it is a genuine overdate then the other examples will also show the same defect in the top of the 3.
This is the only eg i've seen so far with the point of the 2 sticking out where it does.I look at all 33 halves these days but the combined total of mine and my Brothers coins would be around 40-50 so only a small sample but now i've thrown the Pics. up someone else may come across a similar Coin.
I still can't get the Pic. i want,the large Microscope i used in the last Post has a small LED light but its too bright for most Coins and is non adjustable but i'm still experimenting and will have another try next Week.
This is one of the better shots without too much glare/shadow,arrow points to the ding/indent that shows in the other Posts.Tip of 2 is clearly showing to our eyes.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_Flip_arrow_resize.jpg)
Coin pathology with Dr Basil!!
Great pics! :good:
When I next find my 33s I'll have a squizz for you too Basil. (Might take me a while to get to it though I'm hopeless with time lately).
Good,Thanks Uni,i'll throw some Pics. up of the Coin but it seems fairly average /normal until you have a close look at the final 3 but someone may find some Die markers of some kind.
My Brother and i both agree this is a different Die to all our other 33 Halves but only because of the final 3,everything else seems the same.
Slightly better angle of the tip with less glare.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_12_resized~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1933_Half_Overdate_KB_Scope_00001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1933_Half_Overdate_KB_Scope_00003.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1933_Half_Overdate_KB_Scope_00002.jpg)
All very interesting, and without knowing a great deal about these or wishing to poo poo the subject, there are the two types that grab me. One with the added material (thicker top loop) as well as an extension from the tip of the top loop, another with just a thicker top loop. For the sake of collecting, the type with a clear extension from the tip of the top loop, is what does it for me.
If you can turn the light off Basil try that and use another light source and see if that's any better.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='112312' dateline='1507972893'If you can turn the light off Basil try that and use another light source and see if that's any better.
Yeah AJ,now that the Football Seasons are over i will have a bit of spare time and will experiment.There is also a light underneath but i can block that off but the main LED points down,i've tried the clear Mylar from 2x2 but that doesn't help.I need a filter of some kind and work out how to mount it over the light.
maybe adding more stronger lights on an angle onto the coin might over power the existing light so you get the required shadowing, just a thought :)
Also is there any adjustments you can make on the computer to cut out the light :scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='112321' dateline='1508023779'Also is there any adjustments you can make on the computer to cut out the light :scratch_one-s_head:
I think the damage is done when the Pic. is taken AJ so SW can only do so much to alter the Pic.Its the brightness of the LED and the angle it shines at,designed mainly for glass slides i think.It has a plastic guard(red arrow) over the top,if i could get that off it would throw a less concentrated beam and i could possibly adapt a filter over it but its part of the section where the LED sits.
http://www.maginon.com/produktinfo/au/Maginon-UM-2000/
http://www.hktdc.com/suppliers-products/6-Lens-Digital-Microscope/en/1X0006I0/3057679/
Its the Aldi one they sold a year or 2 back,completely different,also different SW, to the normal Aldi one they sell regularly but its great for super close ups. I haven't seen them for sale on Ebay or anywhere else but the Stamp & Coin guys will grab them when the word gets out,2.0MP(5.0MP according to the manufacturer) Microscope for under $100.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/IMG_1023.JPG)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Aldi_Microscope_Arrow.png)
Gee there're a strange looking set up basil but as long as they do the job :winkextra:
I'm sure with a little tinkering you'll work the light out, maybe see if you can put a bit of paper or bluetack over that little light :)
It's a shame you can't turn it off with the little "light selector" button.
Even a bit of tissue over it and if it looks like it might fall out use a wire bread tie to hold it up.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='112329' dateline='1508041094'It's a shame you can't turn it off with the little "light selector" button.
Yes you can turn it off AJ but having trouble getting a decent shot with a external light source,i've tried with a flexible USB LED light i have but that's extremely bright with shadows as well. No dramas,i'll experiment as time allows.
Powerful Microscope for close ups,not much good for sections of a Coin or Stamp but i can use use the normal USB scope for that.
All the Pics. in this thread are on the two lowest magnifications,100x & 200x,when you go up a lens you can see dust particles on the Coins,amazing Technology these days.
Another idea is to take it out into sunlight and see how that goes.
Yes technology is getting pretty amazing these days and somethings are getting cheaper all the time.
Looks like a couple of dots from rust/cleaning Die pits in front of the Kings Crown that look unique,i'll have a look at some more 33 halves when i get a chance.
Interesting to see if someone finds a similar Coin,both from the dots perspective and the last 3.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Obv__marker_highlighted_resize.jpg)
I found another possible O/D Coin,appreciate any comments/opinions on the subject.
It doesn't seem to be a 'double die' or 'double strike' varieties type but i may be wrong with that assumption.
Similar to other Coins sold as 33 Half overdates.
https://www.drakesterling.com/19332-overdate-halfpenny (https://www.drakesterling.com/19332-overdate-halfpenny)
Edit..Added a couple(6) more Pics. from a Pro. scope for future reference before i store the Coin.
Definitely a re-entered 3 as can be seen by the lower loop but was it to clumsily eradicate the remains of the top loop of the 2 or for some other reason.Top Loop seems to have remains of the tip of the 2 showing underneath which shows under high magnification.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Ashampoo_Snap_resize_.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Ashampoo_Snap_resize_arrow.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Sun_Feb_16_14-53-51.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Sun_Feb_16_14-57-22.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Sun_Feb_16_14-57-40.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Sun_Feb_16_14-46-33.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1933_half_Od_20_obv00001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/33_od4.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/33_od5.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/33_od7.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/33_od10.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/Ashampoo_Snap_2020_02_10_21h29m23s_001_.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1933_half_Od_20_rev00001.jpg)
Nice clear photos Basil, looks the same as Eric's one.
Thanks Uni,its similar to the one my Brother has,Pics.earlier this Thread but his has a bit of a tip,mine seems to have remnants of a tip.
The eg in the Victorian Museum(Thanks Walter) has a defined tip(see Pic.) but surely there are more out there somewhere as its a circulated Coin.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/290/1933_overdate_half_walter.jpg)
Hi Basil, it would be good if you could do some further research on the 33 1/2d.
I looked through my references and while there is a fair bit done on the penny not much on the 1/2d.
The disturbance around the last 3 looks like part of the general hubbing problems the mint guys had while date changing tooling.
Paul Holland did a masterly job on looking at the penny (JNNA vol 13) and that inspired me to repeat a lot of what he did and reported in CAB May 14. The point was the same moves as made on the penny hubbing were carried out on the 1/2d hubbing. The 1/2d hubbing turned out to be more carefully done on the 1/2 but there is a definite bunch of dies off a hub(s) that show renmants of a different last digit just like the penny.
David Briggs noted this in his copper book, page 42 1st edition with typical photos.
Looking at photos of the penny varieties then gives you a good idea of what to look for in the 1/2d. Your photo is very interesting as on first look, and viewed in isolation, it just appears to be a die that is suffering from splintering of the edge of the die recess around the 3 giving the bevelled change of plane from the field of the coin up the side of the 3. However in the context of knowing the hubbing problems in that year and the gross appearances of the 3 on the penny it is logical that the 1/2d will have just as many appearances. With a striking of 4 million or so that's a lot of hubs and dies to go wrong and somebody has to be brave enough to gather together thousands of coins and go through them to find different type as reflected on the coins.
Now there is a challenge!
It wont be me! I don't have enough time.
Your photo shows the bevelling around the loop and a "shadow" of the pointy bit that is more evident on Unis pix and the example I showed in an article in CAB back in April 13 when I tried to list all of what I called "overdates" on Aussie coins.
If you need a copy of any of my articles I can email you pdfs, the JNNA article by Paul is a download from their site.
Cheers, Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='121366' dateline='1581455511'Hi Basil, it would be good if you could do some further research on the 33 1/2d.
I looked through my references and while there is a fair bit done on the penny not much on the 1/2d.
The disturbance around the last 3 looks like part of the general hubbing problems the mint guys had while date changing tooling.
Cheers, Fred.
Hi Fred,Thanks for taking the time to reply,i agree the doubling is part of the Die and not a double strike or similar.
The Dealer i showed the original Pics. of my brothers Coin(last Pic.) to seemed to think they could have been clumsily trying to obliterate the top loop of the 2 as its very similar to the Victorian Museum Coin minus the top tip.
On that subject its amazing in this age of USB Scopes no other specimen has turned up as this eg.(VM) was circulated before being 'found'.
https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/57452
When comparing the final 33 three to the final 32 two you can see where the doubling may have come from.
http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6287
Anyway i won't take up your challenge,i will have less time than you once the Football start next Month but i will post any finds i come across here.
I'm back buying bulk lots again which is crazy especially with the Oz. $ so low,(last night Paypal was 63.? US cents which is too low) but the thrill of the chase and all that.
AtB
Brothers Coin(now mine) from earlier in the Thread.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/1933_half_OD_Tone33.jpg)
Question regarding 1933/2 overdate half-penny...Was it that the mint filled the 2 with metal and then punched a 3 over it?. Was this done to the die or the hub. Would not have filling the 2 with base metal cut the working life of a die/hub?..Where all the half pennies from 1930 to 39 from the same Master...1922/1 threepence is a true overdate where you can see two numbers clearly...
Question for Fred or Neal,or others,i try not to go down the Rabbit Hole with the Technical side of Hubs/Dies etc,i have enough trouble ID Coins as it is.
Interesting regarding the 1922/1,i read a Book many years ago where the head of the Melb. Mint at the time categorically stated,in writing,that it was not a overdate,bit confusing for the Numismatists at the time that had the Coin sitting in front of them and forking out big £'s to have it photographed.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121399' dateline='1581722823'Question for Fred or Neal,or others,i try not to go down the Rabbit Hole with the Technical side of Hubs/Dies etc,i have enough trouble ID Coins as it is.
Interesting regarding the 1922/1,i read a Book many years ago where the head of the Melb. Mint at the time categorically stated,in writing,that it was not a overdate,bit confusing for the Numismatists at the time that had the Coin sitting in front of them and forking out big £'s to have it photographed.
Could you remember more details? I don't have any reference of such a statement pre '66 and have to wonder on what basis he made such a claim . I do know that Henderson :mafia: from Canberra made a similar stupid statement back about 1971. Wasn't based on any facts but on the hubris/argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to authority) that a branch of the Royal Mint couldn't make such a coin (and overlooking dozens of other overdates/inverted letters etc found on other Royal Mint coins).
The first reference to the 22/21 was in a book back only a year or 2 after they were struck so collectors knew about them back then and they were not questioned as valid overdates (lucky buggers must have had aUnc examples).
I did a quick Google and found Walters piece,i think he means "denied by the Royal Mint" ,i read it in a Book back in the 1990's/early 2000's but not sure when it was printed,leave it with me but someone on here may know the reference.
https://numistip.com/view/1922-21_overdate_threepence_1230.html
Neal and I had a 10 page article printed in CAB June 2016 19-05.
The article was "the last word on the 22/21 threepence".
.
Neal did a lot of research and I carried out some practical workshop testing with number punches and machined "dies" to show exactly how the coin was produced from one only die and noted the die markers that a genuine coin must have.
As Neal says, early collectors knew exactly how the coin came about, that knowledge was ignored and lost.
Then in the 1960's and 1970's complete rubbish was spouted by ignorant clowns in the trade and at the mint with idiotic "proofs" promoting fairy stories. None of these second hand coin salesmen or mint front office snobs had a clue how coins were made and would not listen to the lower class riff raff that did, "the chaps in the factory".
We posted 14 printed references at the end of the article that are interesting reading.
Even if the article is heavy going, a speed read and pausing at the conclusions is worth while.
If you don't have the CAB article I can email you a PDF.
Cheers, Fred.
"GeeZ'' You blokes just cannot stay on the same subject...It's about the 1933/2 overdate half penny. Not personal tangents...
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='121407' dateline='1581758473'"GeeZ'' You blokes just cannot stay on the same subject...It's about the 1933/2 overdate half penny. Not personal tangents...
My fault but no harm done,interesting discussion with myself having another chore of finding a book i read 20 years ago.
RE post #59!
Sorry Stan, you asked a direct question and I missed the post completely.
You mention two coins the 33 1/2d and the 22 3d and the questions are exactly what causes people like Neal and myself to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours of research to answer them.
All of this is part of understanding exactly HOW coins are made and the process of hubbing from a precious master tool a succession of pressings in metal to arrive at coining dies.
All we have now is the evidence of actual coins and arriving at an answer by examining the coins and the disturbances about digits on those coins.
To cut all the crap out and give some simple answers:
The 3d is most likely the ONLY true overdate, where an individual coining die had a number punch directly applied in an attempt to alter the end digit. This did not end well and as you say the two numbers are clear to see.
The 1/2d is a different deal and like so many other coins shows evidence of operations on hubs where the end digit has been changed. On some coins you never know the hub work was carried out as the digit change is complete and no evidence left.
On some coins you can be suspicious where the end digit is in a wonky position or there are renmants of a previous number.
That's it.
You can examine coins and be very suspicious of all sorts of marks that should not be there around a digit; Basil mentioned a 3d where I swear they have done the same caper as the 22/21, driven a 4 punch over a 3 on a die and left a mess behind for us to wonder about.
That's why people like Briggs, Lever, Effendi et al spend hundreds if not thousands of hours staring at coins under a microscope trying to work out what the hell someone did to leave that mess behind. You have to dive down the rabbit hole to find out what is there. The answers are never that simple and that is why people like me write endless articles in coin magazines detailing research results. The "overdate" angle is fascinating to study and is representative of the struggles in the factory by the workers to create tooling and product to a standard and meet production targets. A side of coin production that most coin collectors don't even think about....oppps i'm back on the personal stuff again, sorry.
There is no single simple reason for a lot of overdates and within a single date there may be several types of attempts that you can detect and discuss.
Sorry again for wandering around Stan.
Fred.
Personally I think a lot of very good and informed research comes out through side-tracked discussions, one topic can so easily be lead to another as our minds don't store information under a single standard item method. (Which I guess is why there is a search function in the forum, so that you can search for related posts that might not be under a particularly named thread). All I can say is that I appreciate each and every contribution made by the researchers here, regardless of what topic it's posted under.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='121412' dateline='1581808675'Personally I think a lot of very good and informed research comes out through side-tracked discussions, one topic can so easily be lead to another as our minds don't store information under a single standard item method. (Which I guess is why there is a search function in the forum, so that you can search for related posts that might not be under a particularly named thread). All I can say is that I appreciate each and every contribution made by the researchers here, regardless of what topic it's posted under.
Exactly Uni,that's what keeps a Forum bubbling along in its early days,you need a 'AJ' and the like regularly posting to keep them relevant,particularly in their early years.
In the late 90's early 2000's i posted mainly on Stamp Forums and i remember the Mods letting Threads go for pages on Coins/Notes.
At least 2 Oz. Coin Forums have gone bellyup so i post here as much as i can to keep this one going.
Hear hear!
I see our number of members creeps up regularly but what is important is the number of regulars and amount of activity and interaction. Very rare day that does not have a few posts and sometimes a new post can generate a lot of discussion.
Getting off track can be interesting and, if it goes too far, then we have moderators that will sometimes transfer to a new thread which allows the discussion/debate/argument to continue.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='121410' dateline='1581803684'RE post #59!
Sorry Stan, you asked a direct question and I missed the post completely.
You mention two coins the 33 1/2d and the 22 3d and the questions are exactly what causes people like Neal and myself to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours of research to answer them.
All of this is part of understanding exactly HOW coins are made and the process of hubbing from a precious master tool a succession of pressings in metal to arrive at coining dies.
All we have now is the evidence of actual coins and arriving at an answer by examining the coins and the disturbances about digits on those coins.
To cut all the crap out and give some simple answers:
The 3d is most likely the ONLY true overdate, where an individual coining die had a number punch directly applied in an attempt to alter the end digit. This did not end well and as you say the two numbers are clear to see.
The 1/2d is a different deal and like so many other coins shows evidence of operations on hubs where the end digit has been changed. On some coins you never know the hub work was carried out as the digit change is complete and no evidence left.
On some coins you can be suspicious where the end digit is in a wonky position or there are renmants of a previous number.
That's it.
You can examine coins and be very suspicious of all sorts of marks that should not be there around a digit; Basil mentioned a 3d where I swear they have done the same caper as the 22/21, driven a 4 punch over a 3 on a die and left a mess behind for us to wonder about.
That's why people like Briggs, Lever, Effendi et al spend hundreds if not thousands of hours staring at coins under a microscope trying to work out what the hell someone did to leave that mess behind. You have to dive down the rabbit hole to find out what is there. The answers are never that simple and that is why people like me write endless articles in coin magazines detailing research results. The "overdate" angle is fascinating to study and is representative of the struggles in the factory by the workers to create tooling and product to a standard and meet production targets. A side of coin production that most coin collectors don't even think about....oppps i'm back on the personal stuff again, sorry.
There is no single simple reason for a lot of overdates and within a single date there may be several types of attempts that you can detect and discuss.
Sorry again for wandering around Stan.
Fred. All good Fred. Keep on researchin mate..i just asked if the 2 was filled with metal,before the 3 was punched...and if it was done to the die or hub...Thats all...Simple...yeah the 2 was filled on the hub.....Great thank you... :yahoo:
Hi Stan,
The subtle thing about filling in on a hub was the actual way it was done.
You or I when working on bigger stuff would just grab the welder or oxy, flow in some metal, angle grind it off, and punch in the new digit, grind the bumps off and jobs done!
Back in coin land, the welder or the oxy is kinda too big, so what they did was a succession of pressing jobs in the press.
They would take a incuse hub (just like the coining die a "negative") and press out on to a new blank hub a relief pattern (just like coin).
That gave then gave them the date (say 1933) that poking up above the surface.
Then they would take the angle grinder (i'm kidding here) and carefully flatten out the last digit like a say a 3 and leave the hub blank there.
THEN they would press into another blank hub and press out a incuse hub now with a blank spot where the 3 was.
Then they would grab the number punch, say 4, and drive that into the hub and presto.......a new master with 1934.
As they were set up specifically for doing PRESS work and not welding that's how it was done and it was the easiest way at the time.
Of course all the work is on a microscopic level and needed perfection to achieve seamlessly.
What we see is, the not so perfect mess left behind as people honed their skills.
Fred.
For anyone interested i have added 6 more Pics. to my 11-02-20 Post.
I dusted off my self standing Pro. Scope to have another look before storing the Coin.
It clearly shows what looks like the top tip of the 2 poking out of the re-entered 3,so it well maybe a clumsy attempt to obliterate the remains of the 2.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='121421' dateline='1581893916'Hi Stan,
The subtle thing about filling in on a hub was the actual way it was done.
You or I when working on bigger stuff would just grab the welder or oxy, flow in some metal, angle grind it off, and punch in the new digit, grind the bumps off and jobs done!
Back in coin land, the welder or the oxy is kinda too big, so what they did was a succession of pressing jobs in the press.
They would take a incuse hub (just like the coining die a "negative") and press out on to a new blank hub a relief pattern (just like coin).
That gave then gave them the date (say 1933) that poking up above the surface.
Then they would take the angle grinder (i'm kidding here) and carefully flatten out the last digit like a say a 3 and leave the hub blank there.
THEN they would press into another blank hub and press out a incuse hub now with a blank spot where the 3 was.
Then they would grab the number punch, say 4, and drive that into the hub and presto.......a new master with 1934.
As they were set up specifically for doing PRESS work and not welding that's how it was done and it was the easiest way at the time.
Of course all the work is on a microscopic level and needed perfection to achieve seamlessly.
What we see is, the not so perfect mess left behind as people honed their skills.
Fred. Hi Fred, Thank you so much for the info. I can imagine how hard it would have been back in the day without all the bells + whistles that they have today...also does anyone on this site have pics of the tools,hubs,punches that they used..Web site,books, etc...
Basil, Re #54 and extra pics.
The thing I used to have mid brain arguments about are those tip bits sticking out of a 2 or 3 on a "overdate".
In short, they may be a left overs from a digit change on die or hub, BUT, they may also be a stress line from the end of the digit in the die splintering off the field leaving a further gulley "spike". Thus a normal digit may have a pointy bit sticking out of it.
The proof of this line of thought is to do what normal people don't do, look at other dates than an overdate for spiky bits.
I should follow this up myself, but the short answer is YES there are dates with spiky bits from worn dies but I have not documented it.
The really glaring example of this is a coin with a die crack from a digit point to the rim. We have all seen those. That's the mark of a stress leader leaving a visible result!
Fred.
Hi Fred,just throwing it out there,i don't have a firm opinion either way,any chance you could post up Ian McConnelly's CAB article from 2007, very similar Coin to those posted in this Thread,he left out 3 over 3 which it is but as i said was it a crude attempt to obliterate the top loop of the 2 or for some other reason?
Stan...
There is a Book on the Sydney Mint i read back in the 1960's,lots of Pics. but where to find it these days would be a task but it would still have a 'Dewey'(?) No.
https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4530&highlight=sydney+mint (https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4530&highlight=sydney+mint)
This is a Photo of a Royal Mint reducing lathe and a couple of others that don't have tags.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Coin_reducing_lathe.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/LON14_UNL_006_0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/LON14_UNL_008.jpg)
https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4530&highlight=sydney+mint
This is another rare version of the 1933 Half,completely different Die to the 'double 3' type.I have a couple so will throw up the Pics. while i have it out,tip poking out of the top loop.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1933_half_20.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1933_half_2011.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1933_half_201.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1933_half_20111.jpg)
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121422' dateline='1581897254'For anyone interested i have added 6 more Pics. to my 11-02-20 Post.
I dusted off my self standing Pro. Scope to have another look before storing the Coin.
It clearly shows what looks like the top tip of the 2 poking out of the re-entered 3,so it well maybe a clumsy attempt to obliterate the remains of the 2.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121428' dateline='1581985602'Hi Fred,just throwing it out there,i don't have a firm opinion either way,any chance you could post up Ian McConnelly's CAB article from 2007, very similar Coin to those posted in this Thread,he left out 3 over 3 which it is but as i said was it a crude attempt to obliterate the top loop of the 2 or for some other reason?
Stan...
There is a Book on the Sydney Mint i read back in the 1960's,lots of Pics. but where to find it these days would be a task but it would still have a 'Dewey'(?) No.
https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4530&highlight=sydney+mint (https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4530&highlight=sydney+mint)
This is a Photo of a Royal Mint reducing lathe and a couple of others that don't have tags.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Coin_reducing_lathe.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/LON14_UNL_006_0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/LON14_UNL_008.jpg)
https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4530&highlight=sydney+mint Thanks Basil..Great pics..Check out the air-conditioned ceilings...
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='112302' dateline='1507907696'The only way to confirm/refute the overdate is to find a couple of die markers on this coin and then search a few hundred other '33s to find more examples. If it is a genuine overdate then the other examples will also show the same defect in the top of the 3.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121363' dateline='1581417972'Thanks Uni,its similar to the one my Brother has,Pics.earlier this Thread but his has a bit of a tip,mine seems to have remnants of a tip.
The eg in the Victorian Museum(Thanks Walter) has a defined tip(see Pic.) but surely there are more out there somewhere as its a circulated Coin. Hi Basil, The Vic Museum eg with the defined extended tip,could be there first attempt at removing the 2..Yours with the remnants of a tip could be there second attempt at removing the 2..There must have been more than one master for the 33-od...How many working dies can be made from a master???.Just speculating :scratch_one-s_head:
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/290/1933_overdate_half_walter.jpg)
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='121427' dateline='1581979487'Basil, Re #54 and extra pics.
The thing I used to have mid brain arguments about are those tip bits sticking out of a 2 or 3 on a "overdate".
In short, they may be a left overs from a digit change on die or hub, BUT, they may also be a stress line from the end of the digit in the die splintering off the field leaving a further gulley "spike". Thus a normal digit may have a pointy bit sticking out of it.
The proof of this line of thought is to do what normal people don't do, look at other dates than an overdate for spiky bits.
I should follow this up myself, but the short answer is YES there are dates with spiky bits from worn dies but I have not documented it.
The really glaring example of this is a coin with a die crack from a digit point to the rim. We have all seen those. That's the mark of a stress leader leaving a visible result!
Fred.
Re #75
Basil, I checked my 2007 CAB issues for Ian's articles.
Could not find any article refereeing to 3/2 halfpennies.
Bad news i'm missing the March and October issues and i'll bet its in either of those!
Being a bad librarian i have not replaced them with a "missing issue" filler.
I must have pulled those issues out to research, something put them somewhere else.............
Does anybody have March and October 2007 to check on Ians article?
Fred.
RE #76.
Basil that bit sticking out of the 3 looks more like a die chip adding a bit of length to the loop.
Not a hub or punch episode to me.
Re the photos in the factory:
I worked in places like that!
Took me right back, no guards on spinning bits, pushing stock by hand TOWARD things that would kill you dead, dirt and junk everywhere, "natural ventilation", Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, the memories.
None of that OH&S crap, in those days we got things done, todays workers are woosses!
They get a paper cut in the office and have 2 weeks off with counselling, poor babies.
Sorry.
Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='121434' dateline='1582061020'RE #76.
Basil that bit sticking out of the 3 looks more like a die chip adding a bit of length to the loop.
Not a hub or punch episode to me.
Fred.
No worries Fred,just putting it out there,only been looking for them since McConnelly's article was quoted on Stamp Forums around late 2007(?).Since then i've only found 2 with this tip,so very rare i would say,after saying that they will probably turn up everywhere..LOL.
Quote "Hi Basil, The Vic Museum eg with the defined extended tip,could be there first attempt at removing the 2..Yours with the remnants of a tip could be there second attempt at removing the 2..There must have been more than one master for the 33-od...How many working dies can be made from a master???.Just speculating (https://www.australian-coins.net/images/smilies/extra-smilies/scratch_one-s_head.gif)
Hi Stan..that's what a local Dealer said a few years back,clumsy attempt to erase all remnants of the 2,its not a double strike or similar as only the last 3 is affected in the date.He was au fait with the 33 Half O/D and said he checked all his Coins for it since they turned up in Melb.,he had never never seen my eg with the tip however.
As i posted earlier i'm surprised that more egs of the Melb. Museum Coin haven't turned up as it was taken from Circulation.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121436' dateline='1582069259'Quote "Hi Basil, The Vic Museum eg with the defined extended tip,could be there first attempt at removing the 2..Yours with the remnants of a tip could be there second attempt at removing the 2..There must have been more than one master for the 33-od...How many working dies can be made from a master???.Just speculating (https://www.australian-coins.net/images/smilies/extra-smilies/scratch_one-s_head.gif)
Hi Stan..that's what a local Dealer said a few years back,clumsy attempt to erase all remnants of the 2,its not a double strike or similar as only the last 3 is affected in the date.He was au fait with the 33 Half O/D and said he checked all his Coins for it since they turned up in Melb.,he had never never seen my eg with the tip however.
As i posted earlier i'm surprised that more egs of the Melb. Museum Coin haven't turned up as it was taken from Circulation. :i_agree: But since the Museum 33/2 has been found,everyone with a 33 half penny that has a slight variation of the last 3,calls it a overdate...There's not argument regarding the 22/1,34/3 threepence,25/3 1/- and the 33/2 penny as you can clearly see two numbers....Very hard to prove it's an overdate without defined remnants of the original number...Don't know Basil..Maybe the mint just got better at removing the 2 with each master and ALL 33 half pennies with slight variations of the last 3 are overdates...... :scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='121437' dateline='1582081945'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121436' dateline='1582069259'Quote "Hi Basil, The Vic Museum eg with the defined extended tip,could be there first attempt at removing the 2..Yours with the remnants of a tip could be there second attempt at removing the 2..There must have been more than one master for the 33-od...How many working dies can be made from a master???.Just speculating (https://www.australian-coins.net/images/smilies/extra-smilies/scratch_one-s_head.gif)
Hi Stan..that's what a local Dealer said a few years back,clumsy attempt to erase all remnants of the 2,its not a double strike or similar as only the last 3 is affected in the date.He was au fait with the 33 Half O/D and said he checked all his Coins for it since they turned up in Melb.,he had never never seen my eg with the tip however.
As i posted earlier i'm surprised that more egs of the Melb. Museum Coin haven't turned up as it was taken from Circulation. :i_agree: But since the Museum 33/2 has been found,everyone with a 33 half penny that has a slight variation of the last 3,calls it a overdate...There's not argument regarding the 22/1,34/3 threepence,25/3 1/- and the 33/2 penny as you can clearly see two numbers....Very hard to prove it's an overdate without defined remnants of the original number...Don't know Basil..Maybe the mint just got better at removing the 2 with each master and ALL 33 half pennies with slight variations of the last 3 are overdates...... :scratch_one-s_head:
Ian McConnelly put his reputation on the line by saying the variety with the rentered 3 was an overdate but the jury is still out as can be seen by the reluctance for collectors to buy(or collect).
The re-entered 3 variety are only a small % of 33 Halves and the variety with the tip showing is also very scarce,in the 13 years i've been looking i've found 2 and our local Dealer has never seen one and he's been sorting 33 Halves since the kerfuffle in Melb. in the early 2000's but obviously they had been ID as a Coin of interest before then.
Interesting subject/Coin for those who are interested in the machinations of our glorious Mints.
Edit..i've just been told the original 33 half O/D article by McConnelly was CaB July 2003,if anyone has a copy, after some Melb. Dealers started having a close look at the Coin in the early 2000's.
Undoubtedly its ID-ing probably goes back well before then and got got a revival when the Internet started.
Hi All and Basil yep page 11 of july 2003 "the 1932 penny overdate and its little brother" so the index says but its on page 7.
Ian wrote a couple of pages regarding both with some pix of both.
Collector "Barry" had sorted a bunch of halfpennies and sent an example of the odd date 3 to Ian to have a look.
Ian then wrote out his thoughts on it and sent that off to the editor.
Fred.
Thanks Fred,Ok we are back at trying to get the standalone article from 2007.
There was some sort interest in them by Melb. dealers in the early 2000's,must have been a Trade/ANDA thing as i didn't see anything on the net until 2007/8.
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='121437' dateline='1582081945'Quote from: 'speculating' pid='121436' dateline='1582069259'. :i_agree: But since the Museum 33/2 has been found,everyone with a 33 half penny that has a slight variation of the last 3,calls it a overdate...There's not argument regarding the 22/1,34/3 threepence,25/3 1/- and the 33/2 penny as you can clearly see two numbers....Very hard to prove it's an overdate without defined remnants of the original number...Don't know Basil..Maybe the mint just got better at removing the 2 with each master and ALL 33 half pennies with slight variations of the last 3 are overdates...... :scratch_one-s_head:
Don't underestimate the 1925 Shilling,the egs. that showed a clear 3 were sought after back in the 1960's but demand and interest has dropped off these days.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1925_33.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1925_33_1111.jpg)
Excellent work Basil, that photo is so clear! :good:
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='121443' dateline='1582239443'Thanks Fred,Ok we are back at trying to get the standalone article from 2007.
Basil, the article is in volume 10, number 2 - page 38 March 2007.
I'll try and copy it and send to you later. Not sure how CAB would feel if I posted it here?
Thanks Auto.,let me know when you can get a scan and i'll give you my Email.
I have read it before,10 years ago,but don't remember much except the Pic.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='121445' dateline='1582260266'Excellent work Basil, that photo is so clear! :good:
Thanks Uni., i have a much better eg somewhere,the remains of the 3 show clearly in the bottom bowl of the 5 and a higher grade Coin. That eg is the first one i found.
I think all 1925 shillings are over a 3. If they are/are not clear then that is more a result of wear/tear in circulation or a worn die.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='121453' dateline='1582339404'I think all 1925 shillings are over a 3. If they are/are not clear then that is more a result of wear/tear in circulation or a worn die.
They are Neale but i think there was more than 1 Die as some remnants of the 3 are more prominent than others.
I'll throw some Pics. up in a dedicated Thread when things are quiet on here.
Auto...received McConnelly's PDF,many Thanks to you and your Wife for making the effort. :yahoo:
Re the 1925 overdate.
I did a long article about the hub progression in shillings from 1920 to 1933 and overdates in general on shillings.: CAB aug 16 page 40. Many pictures of dates and trefoil damage.
Other print references
Jon Saxton JNNA vol 14 a great read.
David Briggs does a masterfull job involving the shillings, 1925 in great detail "Shillings" second ed page 126.
First mention of a 1925 overdate: ACR November 1964 page 7.
All required reading to understand the butchery that went on with hubs and dies resulting in all sorts of odd dates on shillings.
Cheers, Fred.
Yes Fred,they were in vogue in the 1960's for a while when i was at School.
This is another eg with the die crack but i have one(somewhere) where you can see the middle/lower part of the 3..
Auto.(Thanks again) sent me a copy of the 2007 McConnelly article on the 33 half,its a reprint of the 2003 article,i thought it was a newer revision but still interesting.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1925_o_d_shill_resize.jpg)
I have received a reply back from Museums Victoria on their acquisition of the 1933 Half Penny Overdate ,it was purchased for the Museum in 1979 so like most things there is nothing new in Coins.
If anyone wants a copy for research purposes i can Email them the official letter,i better not copy it here.
Interesting Coin just listed on Ebay,i guess USB Microscopes will give us a range of wierd Coins over the coming years.
I will copy the other Pics. for posterity Tomorrow but so far i agree with the seller,looks like the top loop of the 2 underneath(too acute angle for the top of the 3) with the Mint having two attempts to cover it with a 3 before the Die has chipped/broken or whatever,understandable with a small Coin i guess.
Edit..added some Pics.I had another good look this morning and along with the Melb. Museum Coin this proves they were modifying the(some) 1932 Half Dies to 33 along with the Penny.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1933-Half-Penny-Overdate-Broken-Die-Extremely-Rare-Mint-Error-Coin/202927462673?hash=item2f3f6b5911:g:BXEAAOSw0uReZhht
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1933_32_Ebay_march00001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1933_32_Ebay_march00003.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/6.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Arrows_Die_Breakage_resize.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/10.jpg)
Anyone got an opinion or view on the Ebay Coin in my last Post?
I know there are more important things going on in peoples lives but i think this Coin is the missing link as far as 1933 Half overdates go.
Too my way of thinking it goes a long way to proving Ian McConnelly's instincts were correct and the re-entered last 3 on some 1933 half Coins,Pics. earlier in this Thread, was the Mint clumsily trying to cover the top of the 2.
On that subject i can't understand,and no-one since my School Days has explained, why the top of the 2 was so hard to cover on 33 Pennies and yet they had no problem with the lower section and tail. Wierd.
Basil, just to throw a curve ball at you:
The bit of stuff poking out from under the 3may have nothing to do with "overdating"!
It may be hubbing thing and you see weird little left over bits that the final hub blow did not fully erase from the previous hub blow on the ,um, hub.
You will see more exaggerated hubbing mishaps as "doubling" of date numerals and rim lettering as well as bits of the inner image.
If that happens at the hub level then a lot of dies and coins are involved.
Yep I also see a lot of hand punching when changing dates on hubs causing numeral problems such as the overdates and written endlessly about them. Even made up date punches in the workshop and showed how 22/21 and 33/32 overdates could be reproduced, shown in photos in the articles. Saxton and Holland did a lot of work on the subject.
That coin needs very careful inspection under the scope to see if there are any other miss-hubs evident.
I have not looked at the Half penny myself just the Penny.
Cheers, Fred.
Thanks for the reply Fred,i've enclosed Pics. of a couple of my Coins i dug out last W/end,i think they also show different layers of work on the Die,but not to the same extent as the Ebay Coin, showing what appears to be the tip of a 2 showing.
The first Coin is in bad shape but does show some Die chipping/crumbling like the Ebay Coin.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/rough_3_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/rough_3_2.jpg)
Different Die and Coin but the layers can be seen along with tip.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/rough_3_4__1_.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/rough_3_4__2_.jpg)
Re post #100.
Basil, the coin in the pix at the top is so horrible its hard to tell!
the coin has corrosion shortening the loop of the 3 (or the die was filling) but yeah also looks like the tip was splintering and lengthening the loop flush with the table of the coin. Or else its all corrosion and goop!
The next two look just typical of a hub goof, when I look twice the centre of the 3 also shows a bit of hubbing messup.
All interesting.
Fred.
Yeah Fred,poor quality egs that i kept years ago when this half overdate thing had a bit of a surge in interest,its the only one i have that clearly shows the tip of the 2 showing similar to the O/D penny,just a shame its so corroded.
Local Coin dealer gave me a formula to try and clear it up a bit which i will try as the Coin has no value other than showing the work the Mint was doing on the 1932 Half Dies..
I think the $500 Ebay coin in the earlier Post proves they were experimenting with the 32 Die,there are 3 layers of work visible.
I'll keep looking when time allows,i want to find an eg the same as the Melb. Mint Coin,surely there is more than 1 out there as its(Melb Mint Coin ie) been in circulation.
Found this over the Holidays,Tip very prominent and the only eg i have so far. I have several similar Coins,2nd Photo,where there is a slight tip showing.
It appears the Mint has had 2 goes at obliterating the top loop of the 2.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/4.jpg)
Love the pics Basil!!! :good:
Nice pics Basil.
The version with the extra tip is much harder to find.
Thanks for the replies guys,after all the kerfuffle and drama with the 1922 3d's i kinda lost interest with the 33 half O/D but this Coin with a prominent tip has renewed my interest to find more egs.
Never give up Basil! You're doing great! :good:
Thanks Uni.,i have no trouble filling a day in since i retired,most time i have spent on my collection since i was at School.
Found i did have a 33 with tip showing when i sorted my 33 half OD pile.
Different Die to the Coin in the last Post,#103,so i think it can be assumed the Mint was playing around with more than one 1932 Half Die.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/last_coin.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/33__half_panny.jpg)
Hi Basil, should have said before, great work and pix showing the hubbing issues the mint was going through 32/33.
I'm stuck at the moment with all the resources I have left, concentrating on saving and restoring a bunch of 1930 to 1950 valve radios.
A mile away from coins and requiring a lot of fabrication of parts and hours of shop and writing time.
Keep up the work and see how much of a progression you can find in a single hub or perhaps sort the appearences of hubs and derivative dies into types?
May be very hard to do as you would need thousands of coins to trawl through.
That's what research is all about!
Fred.
Be careful with the anode supply Fred. Those things can bite! -says he from experience.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='124153' dateline='1610396302'Hi Basil, should have said before, great work and pix showing the hubbing issues the mint was going through 32/33.
I'm stuck at the moment with all the resources I have left, concentrating on saving and restoring a bunch of 1930 to 1950 valve radios.
A mile away from coins and requiring a lot of fabrication of parts and hours of shop and writing time.
Keep up the work and see how much of a progression you can find in a single hub or perhaps sort the appearences of hubs and derivative dies into types?
May be very hard to do as you would need thousands of coins to trawl through.
That's what research is all about!
Fred.
Hi Fred,good to see you posting,i was about to shoot off an Email in case those ugly health issues had re-surfaced.
I get lost with Hubbing processes although i have read a lot about it over the years,those early 1922 3d's i've found show up the Mints amatuerish attempts with the Dies.
The thousands of doubled coins released before they got the hubbing process correct with a standard,normal,1922 3d show that.
I'll throw these Pics. up whilst its quiet,Coin my brother picked up off Ebay,to us it clearly shows the tip of a 2 with the correct curvature.Its amazing how many different varieties/types of the final 3 of the 33 Half exist,i have over 20 of the 'overdate',(if they are OD's.) types each with its own characteristics and obviously hit with a different Die each time.
Fred said they were having Hubbing problems at the time but its not clear what they were trying to achieve with these Coins,it must have extremely time consuming as they experimented with different Hubs/Dies.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/5.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/2.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/9.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/10.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Stem_in_Lower_Bowl.png)
I don't think "time consuming" was a problem when the mint was working at a fraction of its capacity. Keeps the idle hands busy and stops the higher ups asking why staff are sitting on their butts doing nothing. Also good practice/learning experience for everyone involved.
Hi Neal,certainly a lot of Hub/Die work/experimenting going on in the early 1930's at the Melb. Mint,almost all of which was never included in Mint Records for whatever reason.
I added another Pic. which shows,to us,the remnants of the stem of the 2 in the lower bowl.
I've never seen this eg before.
Yet another eg of a 33 Half O/D,different final 3 that shows the shadow of the downstroke of a 2 in our opinion.
It defies logic the Mint would spend so much time on the 1933 Half Penny unless it was training or experimenting,i have over 20 different final 3's so far and still finding more,hard to find a reason or their mindset in the middle of the Depression.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/2~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Ashampoo_Snap_2021_08_05_10h41m02s_001_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/9~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/1932_half_penny.jpg)
I'll throw these Pics. up whilst i have the Coin out,yet another version of the final 3,this one hasn't got the square bottom of the final 3 that other versions with the tip of the 2 showing have.
Someone may find it informative or interesting down the track.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/113.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/115.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/114.jpg)
Post to keep the Crickets happy,another variety of the final 3 that we have found up here on the Northern Rivers.
Defies logic what the Mint was doing with the 33 Half.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3~3.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/1~1.jpg)
This one needs a clean in WD40 to get rid of the green.
And get a better idea of whats going on.
If its light green it will come off easily and quickly after a soak.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='125528' dateline='1631264040'This one needs a clean in WD40 to get rid of the green.
And get a better idea of whats going on.
If its light green it will come off easily and quickly after a soak.
Hi Echi..not my Coin(yet),will organise a trade/barter with the Owner this W/end,lockdown for us up here in Northern NSW ended last night.I will give it a ultrasonic bath when i assume ownership and Post here.
I'm trying to keep all the 33 Half O/D(if they are classed as overdates) we have found in the one place so someone down the track can investigate exactly what the Mint was doing,or trying to do,with this Coin.
Yet another version of the final 3,this one looks to have a prominent tip but will know more when i give it a bath.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/2~3.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/4~1.jpg)
Nice - that's quite an obvious one.
Yes Mr T.,as i've posted before i have almost 30 different final 3's on the 33 half,no one can offer an explanation what the Mint was trying to achieve/do.
Ian McConnelly was on to it,i sent him some USB Pics. shortly before he passed on,shame none of the other high profile Oz. Numismatists took an interest in this Coin as there must be a story behind the Mints repeated re-jigging of the final 3.
I'll give this Coin a bath to see if there is any more detail hiding under the muck.
There are a number of versions of the overdate penny.
Makes sense that there is a similar thing going on with the halfpennies.
Compared to all other predecimal hub number changed over dates. This attempt showed great workmanship after I presume many failed attempts at near perfection..
Quote from: 'Basilstate' pid='125683' dateline='1633823007'I'll give this Coin a bath to see if there is any more detail hiding under the muck.
Pics. of the above Coin after a ultrasonic bath,slight remnants of a tip showing but nothing dramatic,i have better egs.
Owner of Coin in post 81 wanted it back,he knows someone who wanted to look at it so will give it a bath if i get it back down the track and post.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/6~1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/9~1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/10~0.jpg)
Fantastic improvement.
Pics are excellent too.
Thanks Ecci.
Another interesting Variety that our group found up here on the North Coast.First one i've seen showing the stem(like the Penny) of the 2.The top loop is reasonably clean.
Sad Ian McConnelly is not around to see these USB Pics.,he copped a lot of flack,mainly from 'éxperts' that are mostly self appointed,on his original artlicles on the 33 Half overdate.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/6~2.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/Ashampoo_Snap_2021_11_11_10h35m10s_001_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/1~2.jpg)
I noticed this whilst sorting a bulk buy on the W/end.
Looks like a '1' under the first 3 of a 1933 Half but not sure what it is,anyone have a thoughts/views on it.Thanks.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/3333.jpg)
img]https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/3312.jpg[/img]
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/331.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/33.jpg)
Almost looks like a strike through but hard to tell - is it raised or incuse?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='126837' dateline='1661593797'Almost looks like a strike through but hard to tell - is it raised or incuse?
Its raised Mr.T.,sits under the first 3,i never seen anything like it,local dealer was bemused,"possibly foreign object on Die" but that theory is a common 'cop-out' in most cases.
I remember reading somewhere quite awhile back sometimes coins were varnished or lacquered to keep them in good condition. Could it be something that has been removed from it at some stage. Played around with the image, hope that is ok.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12047/515/331.jpg)
True, though I think it was mostly proofs that were lacquered.
I'm thinking die crack is the most obvious explanation but it looks too smooth.
The varnishing and lacquering I was referring to was done by some older collectors outside of the minting process.
Hi Basil, possibly a remnant of a hub date change from 31 to 33.
Or else its a die/hub fracture that "looks" like a number part.
Good spotting! Well done.
That's another thing for me to look for when I get back to coin world.
Fred.
Thanks for the replies fellas,gives me something to think about.
Its not a serendipitous figure,it has shape with regular lines and sits under the 3,as Fred states its probably a Hub artifact of some kind but puzzling on what its doing under the first 3 ?.It was the final 3 that was worked on by the Mint.
Good to see you posting Fred,hope your health is Ok.