Australian-Coins Forum

Numismatic Discussion => Coin Chit Chat => Topic started by: PNC king on September 04, 2015, 11:30:53 PM

Title: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: PNC king on September 04, 2015, 11:30:53 PM
my pick for the most over priced over rated aussie coin is the 1923 half penny in grades lower than VF 35 , IT SHOULD BE WORTH NO MORE THAN 300 DOLLARS TOPS
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 04, 2015, 11:35:35 PM
Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='78824' dateline='1441375253'my pick for the most over priced over rated aussie coin is the 1923 half penny in grades lower than VF 35 , IT SHOULD BE WORTH NO MORE THAN 300 DOLLARS TOPS

Good luck with that idea :angel:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Basil on September 05, 2015, 09:44:43 AM
Yeah,it was the holy grail when i was at School in the 1960's as 1925 Pennies although pricey were plentiful.I think a grand is a fair price for a low grade.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: JeffH on September 05, 2015, 09:52:14 AM
Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='78824' dateline='1441375253'IT SHOULD BE WORTH NO MORE THAN 300 DOLLARS TOPS
I would be interested to know your rationale for that statement.
In my opinion any scarce collectible item is worth what a collector is willing to pay. What a seller is asking is irrelevant if (s)he can get no takers.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: autocoupler on September 05, 2015, 10:08:47 AM
They've been up and down more than the Chinese stock market in recent years. Lower grade examples were attracting crazy prices a few years back and IMHO are now back closer to where they should be. To be honest, I would rather pay top dollar for any  high grade penny variety coin in the list compiled by JeffH in another thread.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausproofs on September 05, 2015, 10:41:35 AM
I personally think 1934/35 florins are way over rated. When a 1943 1942 or 1940 Shillings in MS64/65 go much less than what people pay for a 34/35 in MS65 or MS64. There is a 1911 half penny for sale at Walters auction that he couldn't sell for $1500... I think it is worth double that..
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: robbiegal on September 05, 2015, 10:46:10 AM
Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='78824' dateline='1441375253'my pick for the most over priced over rated aussie coin is the 1923 half penny in grades lower than VF 35 , IT SHOULD BE WORTH NO MORE THAN 300 DOLLARS TOPS

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10035/11752521_1644514289098242_2727500733771398820_n.jpg)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Mister T on September 05, 2015, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='78850' dateline='1441415495'I personally think 1934/35 florins are way over rated.

Agreed.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 05, 2015, 01:39:33 PM
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='78855' dateline='1441423341'
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='78850' dateline='1441415495'I personally think 1934/35 florins are way over rated.

Agreed.

HeHe
Don't get me started on these bloody things :diablo::)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: PNC king on September 05, 2015, 09:07:30 PM
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='78840' dateline='1441412534'
Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='78824' dateline='1441375253'IT SHOULD BE WORTH NO MORE THAN 300 DOLLARS TOPS
I would be interested to know your rationale for that statement.
In my opinion any scarce collectible item is worth what a collector is willing to pay. What a seller is asking is irrelevant if (s)he can get no takers.
it is all about the grade point average , because it has a weighting of 8 a low grade coin would ruin the grade point average

Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='78850' dateline='1441415495'I personally think 1934/35 florins are way over rated. When a 1943 1942 or 1940 Shillings in MS64/65 go much less than what people pay for a 34/35 in MS65 or MS64. There is a 1911 half penny for sale at Walters auction that he couldn't sell for $1500... I think it is worth double that..
spot on way more high grade 34/35 florins  were saved , because they were an oddity , compared to other coins from the same vintage

here is another over priced /over rate coin  the yarrlumna PNC
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Ozcoins on September 05, 2015, 10:59:35 PM
Grade point average has nothing to do with an individual type of coin though. ...
Eg if you want a high grade coin and there are none you can afford,  you will either need to do without, or get a lower grade coin.
How would the same argument go for a 1930 penny?
The idea that there are over valued (or conversely undervalued) coins is a good one for discussion, but I think the justifications for WHY would have to be very good to convince anyone that the current market is wrong.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: runway on September 05, 2015, 11:12:37 PM
The Yarralumla PNC is probably the King of PNCs even thought its a private release but I don't consider it over rated.
I haven't seen any for sale for a while so I have no idea about the price
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: PNC king on September 06, 2015, 01:59:15 AM
Quote from: 'runway' pid='78881' dateline='1441460557'The Yarralumla PNC is probably the King of PNCs even thought its a private release but I don't consider it over rated.
I haven't seen any for sale for a while so I have no idea about the price
if you pay any more than $600-$700 and you are getting ripped off HARD
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 06, 2015, 08:57:18 AM
Without the packaging on the "Yarralumla" issue the coin is a Bog common 50c piece with a mintage of over 14 million and from what I can gather NOT in very good condition due to the packaging to boot.
I imagine that the best grade you could find one of these in would be in the MS64 range which makes it a $10 coin in a private issue envelope.

So as far as an over rated COIN goes this matches the criteria perfectly :ok:

As far as stamp collectors and PNC collectors go I imagine that this is considered a "Rarity" But as I am a coin collector this is just a vaguely interesting piece to me , I would much rather   a nice Sovereign or even a great looking Penny than this .
You could pick up a beautiful Canberra Florin in MS65 for this sort of money :)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: markn on September 06, 2015, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78886' dateline='1441495638'Without the packaging on the "Yarralumla" issue the coin is a Bog common 50c piece with a mintage of over 14 million and from what I can gather NOT in very good condition due to the packaging to boot.
I imagine that the best grade you could find one of these in would be in the MS64 range which makes it a $10 coin in a private issue envelope.

That's actually very, very wrong.  The coins in the Yarralumla PNC are specimen coins that are different to the "bog common 50c piece" as you put it.  In top condition they are one of the HARDEST decimal coins to find.  You should read Cruzi coins on the subject http://www.cruzis-coins.com/Grading/1969Yarralumla.html or even our blog.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 06, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
All the coins I have seen for sale in this so called PNC look pretty ordinary at best due to the packaging so I imagine a coin from one of these in high grade without the PVC/Toning would be a rarity with a mintage of 2000.
I still think that this is way overvalued for a NCLT/ Specimen  coin unless it was in "Pristine" condition and to pay $600-$700 for an average nasty looking piece is ridicules  :ok:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: markn on September 06, 2015, 09:40:53 AM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78889' dateline='1441496950'All the coins I have seen for sale in this so called PNC look pretty ordinary at best due to the packaging so I imagine a coin from one of these in high grade without the PVC/Toning would be a rarity with a mintage of 2000.
I still think that this is way overvalued for a NCLT/ Specimen  coin unless it was in "Pristine" condition and to pay $600-$700 for an average nasty looking piece is ridicules  :ok:

There's a limited supply and people want them and $600 seems like a fair enough price for a coin with a mintage of less than 1500.  Yes the coins are generally toned.  But the point I was trying to make is that they are NOT circulation coins as you suggested.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 06, 2015, 09:45:02 AM
QuoteBut the point I was trying to make is that they are NOT circulation coins as you suggested.

Fair enough :ok:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: drakesterling on September 06, 2015, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: 'markn' pid='78887' dateline='1441495848'
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78886' dateline='1441495638'Without the packaging on the "Yarralumla" issue the coin is a Bog common 50c piece with a mintage of over 14 million and from what I can gather NOT in very good condition due to the packaging to boot.
I imagine that the best grade you could find one of these in would be in the MS64 range which makes it a $10 coin in a private issue envelope.

That's actually very, very wrong.  The coins in the Yarralumla PNC are specimen coins that are different to the "bog common 50c piece" as you put it.  In top condition they are one of the HARDEST decimal coins to find.  You should read Cruzi coins on the subject http://www.cruzis-coins.com/Grading/1969Yarralumla.html or even our blog.

markn is correct. The Yarralumla is a very specific issue struck with distinguishing features such that even a coin removed from the packaging and circulated is identifiable.

Dave Morris wrote an article in the August 2010 CAB describing specific die markers that are unique to the Yarralumla.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 06, 2015, 11:36:06 AM
I know these are a special strike and there were only 2000 struck, There are also many other Decimals struck with low mintages.
What I am saying is I personally wouldn't fork out $600-$700 for this particular  coin because I consider it to be over priced for what it is and the inferior condition of most of the coins are in :ok:

So to me Personally this coin is over rated and over priced, To other collectors Maybe Not :ok:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: serial on September 06, 2015, 01:20:53 PM
Link doesn't work. I am interested in reading on how to Id the specimen 69 50c
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 06, 2015, 01:29:46 PM
:yeah_that: I thought it was just me Serial. I kept getting an incomplete page.

I'd love to be able to track down the article from 2010 too.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: stevo1962 on September 06, 2015, 01:54:35 PM
http://www.cruzis-coins.com/Grading/1969Yarralumla.html
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 06, 2015, 02:05:22 PM
Thanks heaps for the updated link Stevo. :good:

(I had actually seen that page before, but it was a fair while ago).

I'll have to try and track down a copy of the article so that I know the die markers to look for as I'd love to find one in "the wild".
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: markn on September 06, 2015, 03:35:53 PM
Sorry, it looks like the forum code doesn't like it when you put brackets around a link.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: PNC king on September 06, 2015, 06:53:40 PM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78896' dateline='1441505166'I know these are a special strike and there were only 2000 struck, There are also many other Decimals struck with low mintages.
What I am saying is I personally wouldn't fork out $600-$700 for this particular  coin because I consider it to be over priced for what it is and the inferior condition of most of the coins are in :ok:

So to me Personally this coin is over rated and over priced, To other collectors Maybe Not :ok:
i never wasted any money on purchasing this coin even 20 years ago when you could get one for $ 100 , was still way more than the coin is worth buy your self a mule or a wavy 20 cent instead or a  MS 64 no sd two cent or a MS 64 RD perth mint one cent or a MS 63 or better incuse 50 cent
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: markn on September 06, 2015, 07:17:29 PM
There were 4 yarralumla PNCs listed on eBay about 3months back. They all sold for around $700. So they are worth something to someone.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 06, 2015, 08:01:31 PM
Quote from: 'markn' pid='78916' dateline='1441532849'There were 4 yarralumla PNCs listed on eBay about 3months back. They all sold for around $700. So they are worth something to someone.

There are 2 at the moment on eBay listed at over 1K .
Seriously if these were put in the same holders that the Captain Cook coins were then YES the good ones IMHO would command that sort of value :ok:
Unfortunately these coins did NOT survive as the Mint intended and most of them quite frankly look pretty Bloody awful.
I truly perceive these as a "Packyboxitis" thing and not an important numismatic issue :ok:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: markn on September 06, 2015, 08:06:31 PM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78918' dateline='1441535491'
Quote from: 'markn' pid='78916' dateline='1441532849'There were 4 yarralumla PNCs listed on eBay about 3months back. They all sold for around $700. So they are worth something to someone.

There are 2 at the moment on eBay listed at over 1K .
Seriously if these were put in the same holders that the Captain Cook coins were then YES the good ones IMHO would command that sort of value :ok:
Unfortunately these coins did NOT survive as the Mint intended and most of them quite frankly look pretty Bloody awful.
I truly perceive these as a "Packyboxitis" thing and not an important numismatic issue :ok:

I didn't say they were worth $1k.  I said they were worth $700.  Perhaps they are over-valued in the catalogues but at $600 or $700 they are decent buying.  They are an iconic PNC and serious collectors like to have one regardless of what you perceive them as.  And trout mine looks perfectly fine and I'm happy to own it.  

I am not sure why the OP has a bug up his butt about them but even at $100 20 years ago a 700% return is a pretty decent price hike.  Over-valued at $1000....sure, $500-$700 not so much.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: runway on September 06, 2015, 09:52:45 PM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78889' dateline='1441496950'All the coins I have seen for sale in this so called PNC look pretty ordinary at best due to the packaging so I imagine a coin from one of these in high grade without the PVC/Toning would be a rarity with a mintage of 2000.
I still think that this is way overvalued for a NCLT/ Specimen  coin unless it was in "Pristine" condition and to pay $600-$700 for an average nasty looking piece is ridicules  :ok:
It's not about the coin
It's about the PNC itself
The PNC is 46 years old and there were not 2000 PNCs issued
This is an iconic PNC
Greg McDonald 22nd Edition Pocket Guide explains it on page 150
:wavemulticolor:

Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='78895' dateline='1441503564'
Quote from: 'markn' pid='78887' dateline='1441495848'
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78886' dateline='1441495638'Without the packaging on the "Yarralumla" issue the coin is a Bog common 50c piece with a mintage of over 14 million and from what I can gather NOT in very good condition due to the packaging to boot.
I imagine that the best grade you could find one of these in would be in the MS64 range which makes it a $10 coin in a private issue envelope.
Exactly and there has been other articles in CAB that cover this as well
That's actually very, very wrong.  The coins in the Yarralumla PNC are specimen coins that are different to the "bog common 50c piece" as you put it.  In top condition they are one of the HARDEST decimal coins to find.  You should read Cruzi coins on the subject http://www.cruzis-coins.com/Grading/1969Yarralumla.html or even our blog.

markn is correct. The Yarralumla is a very specific issue struck with distinguishing features such that even a coin removed from the packaging and circulated is identifiable.

Dave Morris wrote an article in the August 2010 CAB describing specific die markers that are unique to the Yarralumla.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: notcb on September 06, 2015, 11:21:26 PM
Hi,

There are 3 distinguishing marks on the 1969 specimen strike:
(1) A tiny dot top right of the L in Australia
(2) A dot at the front of the Queen's robes
(3) A dot near the first E in Elizabeth.

The other thing "claimed" about these coins was that they were on unpolished blanks.   Not sure if this has ever been confirmed or just the say so of the two producers of the PNCs.

Cheers

Peter (notcb)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: serial on September 07, 2015, 12:49:27 AM
Quote from: 'notcb' pid='78930' dateline='1441547486'Hi,

There are 3 distinguishing marks on the 1969 specimen strike:
(1) A tiny dot top right of the L in Australia
(2) A dot at the front of the Queen's robes
(3) A dot near the first E in Elizabeth.

The other thing "claimed" about these coins was that they were on unpolished blanks.   Not sure if this has ever been confirmed or just the say so of the two producers of the PNCs.

Cheers

Peter (notcb)

have you got pics of this? as I think I have a specimen
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 07, 2015, 08:16:18 AM
Thanks for the info on the die markers Peter!
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: stevo1962 on September 07, 2015, 08:32:05 AM
Quote from: 'serial' pid='78932' dateline='1441552767'
Quote from: 'notcb' pid='78930' dateline='1441547486'Hi,

There are 3 distinguishing marks on the 1969 specimen strike:
(1) A tiny dot top right of the L in Australia
(2) A dot at the front of the Queen's robes
(3) A dot near the first E in Elizabeth.

The other thing "claimed" about these coins was that they were on unpolished blanks.   Not sure if this has ever been confirmed or just the say so of the two producers of the PNCs.

Cheers

Peter (notcb)

have you got pics of this? as I think I have a specimen

Here's a PCGS certified example that might help

   http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/coinfacts.aspx?i=1354131&sid=89873
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 07, 2015, 08:39:23 AM
Thanks for all the info, one day I might be lucky enough to noodle one but I won't hold my breath :good:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 07, 2015, 08:39:49 AM
:good: .. Thanks Stevo!
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: serial on September 07, 2015, 09:09:45 AM
is this one?
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/31442063
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Basil on September 08, 2015, 08:27:23 AM
Interesting price guide from my School days in the early 1960's,it was compiled with support from P J Downie,Kens Father, so probaly more slanted towards auction/dealer buying prices than street pricing via Newspaper classifieds.
They have the 1923 half and the 34/35 Florin at the same value £10 which surprises my vague memory.Also they have the 1919 double dot as having the same value as the 1920 DD,my memory is these were very scarce and the main source were dealers that had a premium value on them,at least double the 1920 DD.


(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2015_09_08_09h01m23s_001_.png)

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2015_09_08_09h02m46s_002_.png)

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Pennies_resized.jpg)

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Cover_resized.jpg)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: markn on September 08, 2015, 09:21:08 AM
Quote from: 'serial' pid='78957' dateline='1441582785'is this one?
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/31442063

I can't tell from your images and the PCGS image of the specimen is useless.  I'll try to drag out the CAB article this weekend and check your coin.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 08, 2015, 10:46:37 AM
It would be great to have an image of a 50c with circles (or whatever) to indicate where the die markers are positioned. I'd had a guess from the PCGS image where I thought they were, but knowing for sure would be great.

** EDIT ** took out the image so as not to confuse anyone.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: serial on September 08, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/1969_50_cent_c.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/1969_50_cent_b.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11197/1969_50_cent_a.JPG)
does this help? hard to photograph in the slab!
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: autocoupler on September 08, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
Can't see anything there that matches the pic uni posted :nea:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 08, 2015, 04:16:13 PM
My circles are just on spots that look like they might be the die markers (so just a guess AC), I'm hoping that someone who has the CAB from 2010 or a Yarralumla in hand can put the circles in the right spots.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 08, 2015, 04:33:23 PM
Uni Uni Uni, Australian Coin is AC as she was here first and autocoupler is auto, well that's how I tell them apart, besides one being male and the other female :winkextra:
I'll have to suck up to a mate for a pic as I'm pretty sure I know someone with one but will have to check :ok:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 08, 2015, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='79000' dateline='1441695803'Uni Uni Uni, Australian Coin is AC as she was here first and autocoupler is auto

Yeah I know, I must have been having a  ........ moment.

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/ssh.jpg)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: stevo1962 on September 08, 2015, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='79000' dateline='1441695803'Uni Uni Uni, Australian Coin is AC as she was here first and autocoupler is auto, well that's how I tell them apart, besides one being male and the other female :winkextra:
I'll have to suck up to a mate for a pic as I'm pretty sure I know someone with one but will have to check :ok:

Emu has one
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: nealeffendi on September 08, 2015, 07:13:46 PM
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='78990' dateline='1441666643'Interesting price guide from my School days in the early 1960's,it was compiled with support from P J Downie,Kens Father, so probaly more slanted towards auction/dealer buying prices than street pricing via Newspaper classifieds.
They have the 1923 half and the 34/35 Florin at the same value £10 which surprises my vague memory.Also they have the 1919 double dot as having the same value as the 1920 DD,my memory is these were very scarce and the main source were dealers that had a premium value on them,at least double the 1920 DD.


(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2015_09_08_09h01m23s_001_.png)

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2015_09_08_09h02m46s_002_.png)

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Pennies_resized.jpg)

Are you sure this is from the early 1960s? Not from the mid '60s, say 1965 (when Dean put out his excellent book).
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 08, 2015, 07:40:19 PM
The surfaces look too good to be a Yarralumla coin
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Basil on September 08, 2015, 09:19:57 PM
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='79006' dateline='1441705426'
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='78990' dateline='1441666643'Interesting price guide from my School days in the early 1960's,it was compiled with support from P J Downie,Kens Father, so probaly more slanted towards auction/dealer buying prices than street pricing via Newspaper classifieds.
They have the 1923 half and the 34/35 Florin at the same value £10 which surprises my vague memory.Also they have the 1919 double dot as having the same value as the 1920 DD,my memory is these were very scarce and the main source were dealers that had a premium value on them,at least double the 1920 DD.

Are you sure this is from the early 1960s? Not from the mid '60s, say 1965 (when Dean put out his excellent book).

The scans are on one of my old computers Neil, i'll get it out Tomorrow and post the cover,thats easier than trying to find the correct box stored at my sisters house. I had a couple different editions at one stage but thats the only one left,its either 1964 or 1963. From 1965 on i purchased Dion Skinner's Renniks guides,more accurate and included notes,i've posted bits from it on this Forum.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: bellyflorin on September 08, 2015, 10:09:45 PM
heres' my  yarralumla

[attachment=3295]
[attachment=3293]
[attachment=3294]
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 08, 2015, 10:20:16 PM
Thanks so much Belly ...... great photos, they really show the positions well. I was miles off with the E and robe guesses, the L might have been luck. :laugh2:

Thanks again.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: bellyflorin on September 08, 2015, 10:25:06 PM
sorry the photos are so tiny ,i forget how to post photos :blush:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: notcb on September 08, 2015, 10:56:32 PM
[attachment=3298][attachment=3296][attachment=3297]I have attempted to show the expected positions of the dots on Bellyflorins pictures.

(1)  The dot to the top right of the L in Australia  and the dot on the rim between the I and the A in Australia


(2)  The dot near the Queen's neck and the stretched dot in front of the Queen's robes

(3)  The dot near the E in Elizabeth.

A close examination of the photos shows the dots in the first two pictures, but the dot in front of the E is not visible at the resolution supplied.

Given that there were 2000 coins minted, it is not surprising that a feint dot visible on the early minted coins, might start to disappear after 2000 coins.  Remember that the coins were double struck, according to Varian Wilson's account of the day they were minted.

Cheers

Peter (notcb)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 08, 2015, 11:20:10 PM
Here's Belly's pic's blown up a bit
(http://i62.tinypic.com/5o8ay0.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/ztaj5t.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/np55he.jpg)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 08, 2015, 11:35:09 PM
Thanks for the extra info Peter & for the larger pics AJ!
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 08, 2015, 11:41:46 PM
I hope I've got this right so here's some that hopefully indicate the marks
(http://i61.tinypic.com/fwjcrn.png)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/5owmjb.png)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/iopwcl.png)

That any better Uni :)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Unicorn on September 08, 2015, 11:50:16 PM
Looks good AJ!

They match the circles under my eyes :laugh2:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: interest on September 08, 2015, 11:51:45 PM
Hey can they be called specimens if they have those imperfections?
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 09, 2015, 12:05:08 AM
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='79002' dateline='1441696406'
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='79000' dateline='1441695803'Uni Uni Uni, Australian Coin is AC as she was here first and autocoupler is auto

Yeah I know, I must have been having a  ........ moment.


(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/ssh.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/28baf4k.jpg)

:mocking: :angel:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: notcb on September 09, 2015, 07:22:17 AM
Hi,

I went back to Dave Morris' article in August 2010 CAB Magazine

He is in agreement with the positions of the dots around the L ,  IA,  neck and cloak,  BUT his positioning of the dot in front of the E is different.

Also, he talks of additional dots above the second jewel in the crown and a bar/dot on the top of the S in Australia.

I have studied about 10 claimed (pretty certain) Specimen strikes over the years, but have never seen ALL the marks on one coin.

The one I have seen most often is the dot on the rim edge above IA and the dot in front of the Queen's neck.

However, that doesn't mean to say that the marks might vary somewhat depending on the strike number of the coin - remember double strike on 2000 coins.

Some great photos Ausjack.

Cheers

Peter  (notcb)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 09, 2015, 08:48:21 AM
Thanks Peter but you can thank Belly mate as I only blew them up so a great team effort :friends:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: Basil on September 09, 2015, 09:39:52 AM
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='79006' dateline='1441705426'Are you sure this is from the early 1960s? Not from the mid '60s, say 1965 (when Dean put out his excellent book).

1964 Neal,i placed a scan of the cover in my OP,i hope copyright has expired !.
It was a little leaflet type with Tokens at the back,Coin/Stamp Dealer that spoke to us for 1 Period a Week at School sold them too us for 2 Bob.He did alright as Parents sold Coins to him after seeing values.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: nealeffendi on September 09, 2015, 05:27:12 PM
Thanks Basil.
Deans variety catalogue was dated 1964/65 so your list must have come out about (just after?) Dean put his out. If it came out before then perhaps the dealer was one who helped Dean compile his list (maybe a sneak peak/proofread).
The 1919.//. was only really known about after the early 1960s (the SA list of 1961 for example doesn't list it).
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: interest on September 09, 2015, 07:15:55 PM
I may be way out there but I'm just wondering okay, so bear with me.

If these coins, the 1969 50 cent specimen
( "The exceptional thing to note about this release is that these coins struck on "unpolished blanks" are of specimen quality.")
have all these little dots & other marks on them,
do these same marks found on any of the 1969 proof coins?
I ask because,
these blanks would have been the same as the proof blanks just not polished.
Did the same press, as pressed the proof coins prior to sand blasting  press these unpolished coins?
If this did happen, would not the same marks appear on some proof coins?
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 09, 2015, 08:19:57 PM
Gee good questions interest and now your getting into the nitty gritty of things mate so maybe some of the proof owners could post a few pic's for comparison.
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 09, 2015, 09:15:14 PM
Quote from: 'interest' pid='79054' dateline='1441791955'I may be way out there but I'm just wondering okay, so bear with me.

If these coins, the 1969 50 cent specimen
( "The exceptional thing to note about this release is that these coins struck on "unpolished blanks" are of specimen quality.")
have all these little dots & other marks on them,
do these same marks found on any of the 1969 proof coins?
I ask because,
these blanks would have been the same as the proof blanks just not polished.
Did the same press, as pressed the proof coins prior to sand blasting  press these unpolished coins?
If this did happen, would not the same marks appear on some proof coins?

Or Maybe The people at the Mint simply "upped" the strike pressure on one of the normal mint release presses for this 2000 issue using normal blanks ???
If you look at the other Specimen issues eg 1970 Captain Cook   and the 2002-2009 Wedding sets ( This is Still debated) the dies and the blanks were specially treated for these issues   and the Yarralumla coins don't seem to have the same type of strike and quality :angel:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: runway on September 09, 2015, 10:56:21 PM
Some excellent information and debate here about the 1969 50c Specimen
Could admin place this in it's own topic?
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 10, 2015, 04:58:12 AM
Did you look at your 69 proof to see if it has any marks trout :)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: trout on September 10, 2015, 05:16:36 AM
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='79076' dateline='1441826892'Did you look at your 69 proof to see if it has any marks trout :)

All I was looking at last night was the insides of my eyelids, I drove 3500ks over the last three days and have to drive another 500 to be able to catch a plane at 10am in Perth i'll be leaving in about half an hour 04.15 WA time.
I pretty Knackered Mate :ok:
I'll have a look when I get back in a few days :)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 10, 2015, 07:05:07 AM
No worries, take it easy cobba :friends:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: stevo1962 on September 10, 2015, 07:12:18 AM
The proofs look pretty clean with no dots visible

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/69b.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/69a.jpg)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: ausjack on September 10, 2015, 07:22:51 AM
Thanks Stevo :good:
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: robbiegal on September 10, 2015, 09:11:58 PM
bloody well should too!!!

ps
I thought that the Yarralumla 1969 specimen 50c was made to special order and were off the mint set run
not all of the special order coins were finally purchased so the mint sent them out (the left overs) through change in the mint shop

ps I thought a proof die was different to a business strike die (ex the earlier pre-decimals)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: notcb on September 10, 2015, 11:14:34 PM
Hi,

If you are to believe Varian Wilson's account of the process; " but he (Henderson) took 2000 unpolished blanks into the proof room, stopped the girl on the 50 cent press and had ours double struck with proof dies"

and it was also reported that 1330 were used for the pre-prepared envelopes and the rest of the coins were put in the till in the mint shop.

In the past there has been all sorts of theories put forward as to why these coins tend to have a dull grey appearance - especially pvc contamination, but the unpolished blanks description would certainly explain their surface appearance and clarity of strike, but not the dots, since the proof dies were used.

Cheers


Peter (notcb)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: interest on September 10, 2015, 11:49:47 PM
Quote from: 'notcb' pid='79120' dateline='1441892674'Hi,

If you are to believe Varian Wilson's account of the process; " but he (Henderson) took 2000 unpolished blanks into the proof room, stopped the girl on the 50 cent press and had ours double struck with proof dies"

and it was also reported that 1330 were used for the pre-prepared envelopes and the rest of the coins were put in the till in the mint shop.

In the past there has been all sorts of theories put forward as to why these coins tend to have a dull grey appearance - especially pvc contamination, but the unpolished blanks description would certainly explain their surface appearance and clarity of strike, but not the dots, since the proof dies were used.

Cheers


Peter (notcb)
I don't know this for sure, but are not business strike coins just unpolished blanks?
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: notcb on September 11, 2015, 04:10:36 PM
Interest,

That may be the case now, but I am not certain that it was in 1969.

Varian Wilson's description suggests that all the business strike coins had been produced already and boxed up ready to transport to banks etc. - therefore 2000 unpolished blanks were grabbed and minted using a proof die.  We would need someone who worked at the mint in 1969, well versed in the techniques of the time to explain.  Maybe Tony Ayres from Canberra Numisco could help?

Cheers

Peter (notcb)
Title: RE: most over rated and over priced aussie coins
Post by: runway on September 11, 2015, 10:30:27 PM
Kevin Ayres is the dude who knows about this