I am sorting out a large number of pennies and want to check for any recognised die varieties.
Does anyone have, or know of, a list of all die varieties and combinations?
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='78270' dateline='1440559563'I am sorting out a large number of pennies and want to check for any recognised die varieties.
Does anyone have, or know of, a list of all die varieties and combinations?
Not my list but compiled by our member emu666 about ten years ago.
Covers probably 95% of what you may find.
1919 double dot
1920 plain London & Indian obverses
1920 dot below London & Indian obverses
1920 dot above London & Indian obverses
1920 double dot
1920 dot above top scroll
1921 London & Indian obverses
1922 London & Indian obverses
1924 London & Indian obverses
1927 London & Indian obverses
1929 London & Indian obverses
1931 aligned 1 London & Indian obverses
1931 dropped 1 London & Indian obverses
1933/2 overdate
1941 K.G high Y dot
1942 Bombay no mintmark
1943 Bombay long reverse denticles
1952A Melbourne & London reverses
1953 Long 5 Different 3
1955Y Melbourne & Perth obverses
1956Y Melbourne & Perth obverses
1957Y London (wider date) & Perth reverses
Thanks FP (and feathers); that is a good start.
I might add a few others that I know and post the updated list here with an invitation for others to add any more, if they know them.
There is missing from that list 1955Y Narrow and Wide Date reverse.
The 1920 Plain London Reverse is still a Question Mark.
There's a book that's been linked here before, as a PDF.
Just found it and had a look. Not sure how useful it might be -I don't categorise weak strikes, die cracks, strike throughs etc. as varieties (I consider them errors).
And a big download; 68.9Mb.
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='78273' dateline='1440565166'There is missing from that list 1955Y Narrow and Wide Date reverse.
The 1920 Plain London Reverse is still a Question Mark.
Not in my book. It doesn't exist (and I've looked at getting up to a thousand English obverse 1920 pennies).
You could if you so desire continue to add variations to the list of Same Mint Die types for a given year.
A Qld collector Qld Sandy started a Text List about the same time as emu666, this little bit covers a couple of the teen years.
1913 Normal coin. Upright 3 in date. London die obverse, flat based letters reverse. SPUR on 2nd N in PENNY. Unlisted
1913 Slanted 3 in date. London die, flat based letters reverse. 3 leans noticably to the left. B3A? P13B
1913 London die, flat based letters reverse. Hairline crack through EORGIV. Unlisted
1914 Normal coin. Upright 4 in date. London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse. B4 P14A
1914 Slanted 4 in date. English die, flat based letters reverse. 4 leans noticably to the left. Very scarce. P14B
1915 Normal coin. London mint, no mintmark, London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse. B5 P15A
1915 Slanted 5 in date. 5 leans noticably to the left. English die, flat based letters reverse. Rare.
1915 London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse. Diecrack from second O in COMMONWEALTH to rim. P15A (a)
1915H Normal coin. Birmingham (Heaton) mint, H mintmark below scroll, London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse. B6 P15B
1916 I Normal coin. Calcutta mint, I mintmark below scroll, Indian die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse. B7 P16A
1916 I Calcutta mint. Indian die obverse, flat based letters reverse. Missing I mintmark reverse, possibly diefilled. P16A (a)
The 1916 Penny (no I) is certainly a diefill. Paul Holland published the mint records a few years back that shows the I was on the master.
There are a few lists out there that have hundreds of varieties. Phil Bird (Qld) and Mike Locke (USA) are both pretty good.
1922 various date widths (five core groups) :grin:
You may view most of these as errors?
1939 dash after last A of Australia
1942Y. Missing dot after Y (might be die fill) I have one in high grade, and definitely not from a weak strike
1951PL Missing PL (might be die fill) I remember about 8 years ago one in grade EF sold for $600 on Quicksales. Hope they're all worth that, about 5 years ago I picked up one in similar grade on ebay for $9 something from Canada :yahoo:
1952P Square serif, pointed serif, wedge serif, right leaning 2. The square and wedge serifs may be die breaks.
1952M Cud on 9, hub doubled obverse
1962 Double nose
Fred Levers variety book identifies others, particularly many with date numeral differences.
How about the broken "N" and "Q" varieties with the 1925 Penny.
PCGS has now started to recognise the broken "N" coins :ok:
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='78277' dateline='1440576114'Just found it and had a look. Not sure how useful it might be -I don't categorise weak strikes, die cracks, strike throughs etc. as varieties (I consider them errors).
And a big download; 68.9Mb.
Any chance of a link(authors name?) to see if i have a copy. TIA
Edit..thanks Jeff.
Mostyn Arthur Byrnes pre-decinal varieties book (http://www.coincommunity.org/book/au-variety-entire-book-compressed.pdf)
Someone else did post this link in another thread but it took me ages to find -just found it again quicker via CCF.
I have searched through hundreds and hundreds of the 1951 penny looking for the missing PL
alas, never found one ..... one day ... never know
I have collated all the information I now have and here is the list, so far;
Penny variety list (includes recurring errors)
1913 Normal coin. Upright 3 in date. London die obverse, flat based letters reverse. SPUR on 2nd N in PENNY.
1913 Slanted 3 in date. London die, flat based letters reverse. 3 leans noticably to the left.
1913 London die, flat based letters reverse. Hairline crack through EORGIV.
1914 Normal coin. Upright 4 in date. London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse.
1914 Slanted 4 in date. English die, flat based letters reverse. 4 leans noticably to the left.
1915 Normal coin. London mint, no mintmark, London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse.
1915 Slanted 5 in date. 5 leans noticably to the left. English die, flat based letters reverse.
1915 London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse. Diecrack from second O in COMMONWEALTH to rim.
1915H Normal coin. Birmingham (Heaton) mint, H mintmark below scroll, London die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse.
1916 I Normal coin. Calcutta mint, I mintmark below scroll, Indian die obverse, flat based letters on the reverse.
1916 I Calcutta mint. Indian die obverse, flat based letters reverse. Missing I mintmark reverse, possibly diefill. The 1916 Penny (no I) is certainly a diefill.
1919 No dot, upright final 9
1919 No dot. Final 9 slopes left
1919 Dot below bottom scroll. Final 9 upright
1919 Dot below bottom scroll. Final 9 leans left
1919 Dot below bottom scroll and above top scroll. Final 9 upright
1920 London obverse and Indian reverse, no dots
1920 Indian obverse and reverse, no dots
1920 London obverse and Indian reverse, dot under lower scroll
1920 Indian obverse and reverse, dot under reverse scroll
1920 London obverse and Indian reverse, dot above lower scroll
1920 Indian obverse and reverse, dot above reverse scroll
1920 Indian obverse and reverse, dot above upper scroll
1920 Indian obverse and reverse, dot below bottom scroll and above top scroll
The 1920 Plain London Reverse is still a Question Mark. "It doesn't exist."
1921 London & Indian obverses
1922 London & Indian obverses
1922 various date widths (five core groups)
1924 London & Indian obverses
1925 broken "N" and "Q"
1927 London & Indian obverses
1929 London & Indian obverses
1931 aligned 1 London & Indian obverses
1931 dropped 1 London & Indian obverses
1933/2 overdate
1939 dash after last A of Australia
1941 K.G high Y dot
1942 Bombay no mintmark
1942Y. Missing dot after Y (might be die fill)
1943 Bombay long reverse denticles
1951PL Missing PL (might be die fill) London reverse has no serif '5' and stem of 'Y' aligned with denticle.
1952P London reverse, common (Perth mintmark dot after AUSTRALIA)
1952P Melbourne reverse, pointed serif
1952P Melbourne reverse, square serif (possibly damaged pointed serif die)
1952P Melbourne reverse, pointed serif, misaligned 2
1952P Melbourne reverse, wedge serif (possibly damaged pointed serif die)
1952M Melbourne mint (no mintmark)
1952M Cud on 9, hub doubled obverse
1953 Long 5 Different 3
1955Y Melbourne & Perth obverses
1955Y Narrow and Wide Date reverse.
1956Y Melbourne & Perth obverses
1957Y London (wider date) & Perth reverses
1962 Double nose
Additions, corrections (I will surely have made some errors) and comments invited.
And then there is the difference between a variety and an error. I.e. is the double nose 1962 penny a die variety or a die error? Same for the broken N 1925 which I believe is die error, not die variety
I found this yesterday looking for the Byrnes pdf,
http://www.afscoins.com/images/pdf/Australian%20Coin%20Varieties.pdf
Some wierd varieties on it,i have the 1918 dot(die chip ?) over top scroll Penny somewhere,its also listed in Renniks.
Surely a die error and not a variety,i'll post some Pics. if i can find it easily.
Yes, I consider a variety is one where the a die is made with a difference to other dies in the year. If the die has a problem -chip, crack, damage etc.- or there is foreign matter present I would call that an error.
However where a particular error is found on several, or even many, coins caused by a particular problem many people refer to that as as a variety. So, I haven't spent time to try and decide which might be which on the list.
The aim of the list (at least for me) is as an 'aide-mémoire' to know what to look for when sorting through a lot of pennies. So, varieties and faults are all worth looking for.
Maybe I should entitle the list "Things to look for with Pennies (as well as high grade and beautiful toning)!
Not trying to steel your post Jeff, just thought a couple of pics are better than words.
1945 larger dot after KG. Possibly a cud.
1945 where the 4 and 5 are wider apart. Found approx. 1 in 8.
DOT AFTER KG
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2931.JPG)
4 & 5 WIDER APART
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2930.JPG)
4 & 5 CLOSER TOGETHER
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2928.JPG)
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='78334' dateline='1440669867'I have searched through hundreds and hundreds of the 1951 penny looking for the missing PL
alas, never found one ..... one day ... never know
Here's one RG
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_PL_Penny_reverse.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_PL_Penny_reverse_close_up.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_PL_Penny_reverse_close_up_1.JPG)
oh wow
that must be worth a bomb!!
:agreed:, great condition as well.!!
Just a point of clarification with the 1951 missing PL. I assume that I need to be looking at the denticles to identify as a London mint coin. Is this correct?
And what is the easiest check for that? (I notice that autocoupler's penny has the Y lined up with a denticle.)
It is a good looking coin too.
The London PL has a different 5 in date. The Melbourne mint is a Serif Font.
Have a look at both and the difference is easy to spot.
1951 PL London No Serif
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1951%20Penny/London%20IMG_0020-crop_zpsj7qdhfoa.jpg)
1951 Melbourne Serif 5
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1951%20Penny/Melbourne%20IMG_0014-crop_zpso7ncvhvu.jpg)
1951 Perth Serif 5 Dot MM.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1951%20Penny/Perth%20IMG_0019-crop_zpsftxwy2de.jpg)
And the one your looking for :-
1951 London Missing MM
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1951%20Penny/IMG_1104-crop_No%20PL960_zpsawfeluvo.jpg)
Thank you. It is easy once you have seen what to look for. Good picture are a great help. [Also see the denticles relative to the Y is as I suspected.]
I will add a note to the list.
Very helpful. :ok:
The 51 London F P posted is high grade :drooling:
Fred Lever has a couple of interesting articles in the latest CAB mag. One was centered on the 1943 I Penny with long reverse denticles, where he provided one particular image of a coin that displayed a stepped recess around the outer rim, and asked if anyone had seen one similar. I know Fred visits this forum, and the first few images below are of a coin with the same characteristics which I have been led to believe is a ram strike?
Freds other article focused on missing mint marks and whether they were accepted as genuine and not die fill. I was interested to read his opinion on the 1951 PL Penny with missing PL, where he said it was suspect and more than likely a die fill as all examples seen so far had a hint of the mint mark remaining. The latter images below are of one example I posted previously, as well as a very high grade example posted earlier in this thread by Ford Prefect. Both coins IMO are not weakly struck, and show absolutely no sign of a PL mint mark in the vicinity of the third and fourth large denticles after the Y of PENNY. Would be interested in any opinions :)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2508_281024x76829.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2509_281024x76829.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2510_281024x76829.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2511_281024x76829.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_PL_Penny_reverse.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_PL_Penny_reverse_close_up.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_PL_Penny_reverse_close_up_1.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1951_missing_PL_penny_Ford_P.jpg)
Excellent photos as always Auto! The 43 is very interesting (geez I'm going to have to dig mine out now) and I agree there appears no sign of the PL. Top stuff! :good:
The stepped recess around the outer rim is only visible on better grade examples of the long denticles variety.
http://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/81292898_max.jpg
Strangely I've seen a similar thing on a number of 1940 K.G pennies.
Just visible on this pic:
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/joseywales10/1940penny_e%201_zpslf1ptnul.jpg)
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='102124' dateline='1480501471'Excellent photos as always Auto! The 43 is very interesting (geez I'm going to have to dig mine out now) and I agree there appears no sign of the PL. Top stuff! :good:
Thanks uni, but I can't take any credit for that excellent pic of the high grade 51 no PL, it was just copied from Ford Prefects post and re entered.
As for the missing PL, in Fred's article he mentions that the Royal Mint did send the Perth Mint a reverse punch/die of their 1951 PL penny design with the PL removed, so is it wishful thinking to suggest the Perth Mint may have pressed an unknown number of these?
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='102125' dateline='1480502845'Strangely I've seen a similar thing on a number of 1940 K.G pennies.
Just visible on this pic:
That 1940 K.G is interesting echidna, the recess appears to navigate the entire circumference, which should rule out any action from the collar? I'm really not up with the mechanics of the minting process, but could something like this be the result of a oversized planchet?
Does this look like a minor diecrack on the crown.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF4913.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF4916.JPG)
Lovely die cracks G! What year is it?
Is that a small elongated cud between the first downstroke in R of GeoRge and King's Chest and pehaps one to the right of the King's forehead and perhaps another between the O in OMN and the crown orb?
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='106494' dateline='1489272858'Lovely die cracks G! What year is it?
Judging by the square rims, it could be a 51PL uni. At the top of G's post he mentions needing to find one with missing PL :angel: ;)
rev Uni :)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF4910.JPG)
Was looking at the 51 missing MM, auto, haven't got one yet. :)
Good eyes, need to have another squiz at it. :)
GNOME , how do you tell if a penny is G L or not please ??
I have 2 x 1925 penny's and don't know how to find out if they are G L or not .or is it only 1951 penny ?.
Sorry Kel, there was 2 references I made. One was about the picture above with the missing Mintmark, PL which is the 1951 penny .
I then put up my pic of the diecrack which was on the 1925 penny.
My appologies for the confusing post. :)
no problems , now I know the difference . thanks .
Need an opinion on this one, thanks. Bit tricky some times telling the obverses apart. :)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6500_edited_zpskgpmoers.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6500_edited_zpskgpmoers.jpg.html)
Same coin
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6499_edited_zpstohifm8g.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6499_edited_zpstohifm8g.jpg.html)
Nice London obverse with nearly a full diamond there G. :good: What year is it?
It's a 31 auto. :)