The ink is still wet on my book but already I've had two really scathing emails from a dealer who has accused me of potentially destroying the industry with the new (and mostly) lower prices published. With something like 30,000 individual prices listed I am sure I can be taken to task over some but I'd hate to think that the whole book is totally negative. The unnamed dealer was particularly unhappy with pre-decimal commonwealth coins but alluded to the fact that many other areas had been "slaughtered".
I have always encouraged dealers and collectors to contribute to the pricing. Having said that I spend just as much time reviewing the prices given. Self interest is a problem and I've had issues in the past where a reseller will give me one price for the book and than advertise the same item at a lower price. Theory is that people will accept the book price as the correct retail and so any price offered for less is regarded as a bargain.
Price also have to last until the next book and this is where a crystal ball would be handy. This is especially so where really low grade coins or bullion coins are priced according to bullion prices which, in turn, are governed, not only by the changing spot price but also the relationship between the US$ and the Australian $. Since the last book the Aussie $ has dropped by a third.
Anyway if you have a really serious issue with any price, it would be helpful if you could reference it with an auction or listing to support your argument.
OK, over to you!
Best wishes
Greg
I'm so trying to be good, tell them to go get f@@ked and that you can't help what the market is doing in these tough unpredictable times we are living in at the moment, people are scared they'll loose their jobs and our dollar is shit and gold and silver have taken big hits over the last few year and not really something you can control so now you have to panda to *I HAVE A POTTY MOUTH* that aren't happy with prices. Tell them to look at ebay or anyone else that sells coins and you can see it's been trending down for quite some time and like other parts of the economy it will come back in time. Sounds like someone wants you to artificially stimulate the market place :( Just pay them no mind and don't let them get you down mate :friends: again sorry for my rant :angel:
A coin is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Your book is a "Guide" not a bloody pricing catalogue .
Any dealer worth his/her salt will do their own market research using various means , Bluesheet, eBay, NGC and PCGS, also various auction results that are freely available.
I imagine that you do your absolute best to have the pricings accurate at the time the book is printed and that is all you can physically do Mate.
If you left the inflated pricings as they were the dealers would be happy because it would give them "Leverage" to charge more.
BUT you wouldn't be doing any of the other 99% of the buyers of your book any favours.
This other 99% by the way are the collectors :)
Maybe put in a footnote saying "due to the current trends/ebbs and flows in the economy/market place some prices are subject to change" or something along those line, sorry I can't be of much help due to my current circumstances :winkextra:
Yes that's right trout, if I don't have the money how can I buy the coin be it $5 or $5000 and also like trout said it's a "guide".
People do take the price guide as gospel. That's their problem. not Greg's.
The dealers have one take on it. Here is another I have come across -someone has deceased grandfathers collection, compiled over many years, and they are not interested in coins. So they make a list, go to the library and ask if any coin catalogues are available. Indeed they are but possibly several years old.
They mark up the prices on their list (with no understanding of the significance of grades) and think they are sitting on a valuable asset. Go to a dealer to cash in and...you can guess the rest.
Greg you are in a no win situation here. As the poet John Lydgate said "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time". Later adapted by Abraham Lincoln by substituting "fool" for "please".
As we've all said your pocket book is a guide only and mostly wasn't expected to reflect actual selling prices.The people
whining about the new pocket book probably used the old books as reference to rip buyers off so would be unhappy
seeing the new guide bring prices back to earth.Anyway you know the saying "you can't please everyone".There
will always be someone who is not happy but they will have to live with it
Better to be realistic than publish inflated prices that does nobody any good in the end. Now I can go purchase my first since 2009 :good:
The dealer you mentioned Greg has no right to attack you,nor does any individual.
I have not received my copies yet.......but expect so today. I therefore can not comment on the pricing in the book yet. My thoughts however are that the market has dropped in the last 12 months and has so for a few years. Both Renniks and Maccas prices have been over inflated in the past. This is because of the network both publishers used to get information. Of cause it is in a dealers interest to see high prices so if the information is gotten from dealers then here is where the fundamental problem exists.
Now assuming the prices have been completely rejigged in Gregs book and they are closer to being accurate then if it stuffs a market....then it stuffs a market.....that cant be helped....that is just the market. Greg writes a non-fiction book.....not a work of fiction.
My comeback to being attacked would be the facts. I would pull a dozen or so items from the section in question.....look up recent auction pricing (ebay, nobles, roxburys etc) and average it....add a reasonable dealer margin, GST and auction fees and if that came to book price (or there abouts) then argument is dead and buried. It is hard to argue with facts.
My biggest gripe over many years is that if a coin catalogues for $200.00 and when I sell/buy it at auction it comes out at say $75.00 then the book is inaccurate. There has been too much of that for a long time.
I know being a publisher of this type of book you will have critism. As long as you can back things up with fact you can shoot down any argument. Good luck with this years book Greg and keep you head up!
In the past when, for example, I have paid $20.00 for a $1.00 coin my wife has said, "you paid how much for a dollar?"
I have been able to show her the book to see how much it has gone up since I bought it,
wont be able to do that any more.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='77253' dateline='1438910688'Now assuming the prices have been completely rejigged in Gregs book and they are closer to being accurate then if it stuffs a market....then it stuffs a market.....that cant be helped....that is just the market. Greg writes a non-fiction book.....not a work of fiction.
Too right. The dealers who complain that realistic pricing stuffs up the market need to deal with the real issue - which is not Greg's book (he is just the messenger after all) - but the market itself. If prices are coming off, they're coming off. Dealers should not complain about it but use it as a buying opportunity instead! I know I am.
Eric
To tell you the truth I wasn't going to buy a price guide this year because it was going to be more
of the same inflated prices but since the coin prices have been brought down closer to actual market price
values I am now interested in getting a copy as it is of more use to me and another measure of what these
items are actually worth in the market ATM
but what I don't quite get is that I can go to maccas for raw coin prices (with all of the backdrop of the whinging) with a set reliability each year
then the slabbers buy for way under the raw price in maccas - the so called 'inflated'
then the same slabbing guys sell the same coin for say, 20 times maccas's valuation and nobody so much as sneezes
it is an unreal world once you cross the boarder to the slabbing game
and the real life contradiction is that once it is in an American slabb
people accept the incredibly inflated prices - without all the sooking and whinging - especially if they are selling
frankly I am sick of it all
Quotefrankly I am sick of it all
The reason the "slobbed" coins sell well is because they are usually graded honestly and are authentic.
This is a far better option than buying an over graded or cleaned coin from an uneducated/ shonky dealer :ok:
No catalogue has slab prices
Slabs are a beautiful presented coin with PCGS grading they are what they are
Congratulations Greg McDonald and Rennicks for publishing great reference books/guides,real people buy them for education not prices
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='77263' dateline='1438917835'but what I don't quite get is that I can go to maccas for raw coin prices (with all of the backdrop of the whinging) with a set reliability each year
then the slabbers buy for way under the raw price in maccas - the so called 'inflated'
then the same slabbing guys sell the same coin for say, 20 times maccas's valuation and nobody so much as sneezes
it is an unreal world once you cross the boarder to the slabbing game
and the real life contradiction is that once it is in an American slabb
people accept the incredibly inflated prices - without all the sooking and whinging - especially if they are selling
frankly I am sick of it all
Robbie, it is the slab collectors not the sellers who determine prices. If a PCGS-graded coin sells for $50 at auction and my retail price is $100, then I have to put my price down. In auction, it is the buyer who determines the price, and I - as a seller - have to follow the market.
And PCGS-graded coin prices are generally not "20 times" McD values anyway. Broadly, they are in line with where the catalogues should be, with some prices over and some under. It's only the big fantastic expensive sales that get the write-ups, but do your research and you'll find that PCGS-graded coins are very affordable, particularly at the more collectable levels.
Eric
Well said Eric,
RG, as a matter of fact graded coins are cheaper to buy. Just as a random pick, see what you have to pay for a 1940 Sixpence in aUNC, UNC and ChUNC in raw. Then do a comparison to see what you pay for a AU58,MS60,MS62,MS63... Most of raw coins sellers sell (private and dealers) their coins for a higher price than their slabbed counterparts.. I have being there and done that. I paid way too much for a so called UNC coin (graded by a dealer) that only graded at AU58 .. Lost $150 + ..Never to go there again. Like for like coins, slabbed coins are cheaper and you get what you pay for...
As for Greg's book, its a good source of information. I buy it every second year or so... like someone else said, its an iconic Australian publication that most use as a reference. I use it as an education source more than anything else. If I want to know the market price for a coin, Google can help you better than anything else.
Greg - Good luck with your publication and who cares what minority say... People who understand the market (specially dealers like Eric) sells coins at a real price. People buy them and your book may be on the mark with what is happening. (sorry I have not read your book yet). If you upset one or two people then thats life, there will be 100's who applauds you !
I haven't got this years edition yet, I ordered from Downies ages ago.
I buy the book every year, Not because I need the price information I have other sources for that.
I buy it because it IS a good publication and I hand down the last years book to either my grandies that are interested in coins or some new collector that needs the information.
I noticed at the one and only coin show I have been to that the dealers seem to use the book to price coins they sell at the show.
This is probably why some of them have got the shits with your book and the more up to date and more realistic pricing Greg :ok:
Stuff Them Mate You have my support and always will have, Keep up the good work Mate :good:
thanks Eric and Ausproofs
perhaps I am a little too single minded at times
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='77426' dateline='1439112532'thanks Eric and Ausproofs
perhaps I am a little too single minded at times
Cheers RG :wavemulticolor:
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='77426' dateline='1439112532'thanks Eric and Ausproofs
perhaps I am a little too single minded at times
We need more people with strong views on the forum.
Eric
ta
I hope that is a compliment!
HI everyone ,
Great lot of comments about the book and even more general comments about pricing in general. It was especially pleasing to get positive, and realistic replies from Shane and Eric who, like me, are at the coal face of the industry. No one likes to tell a collector - and especially an investor - that their prices have gone down. Having said that however, you've only lost if you sell. History will tell you that quite a few millionaires were created during the 1930's - during the Great Depression. I am just as certain that astute collectors will add rare items to their collections that would have been unheard of five years ago.
Apart from the single comments from a dealer already dealt with; I've only had one other serious complaint - and that came from a collector who has a lot of very rare coins. I can, of course sympathise with his perception that the new prices in the book has reduced his collection by a few million. He made this very clear in various comments that he is considering taking legal action as he holds me personally responsible for his loses; my book will be boycotted by dealers and my book will lose all respect within collector ranks.
Anyway this particular collector had a rather unusual solution. In short, don't reduce the prices of rare coins (especially his I imagine). Leave them at their 19th edition prices (where they peaked) and just wait until the market rebounds.
Apart from the single comments from a dealer; I've only had one other serious complaint - and that came from a collector who has a lot of very rare coins. I course I can sympathise with his perception that the new prices in the book has reduced his collection by a few million. He made this very clear in various comments that he is considering taking legal action as he holds me personally responsible for his loses; my book will be boycotted by dealers and my book will lose all respect from collectors.
In putting our email correspondence on a public form is not meant to belittle or embarrass the collector in any way. I have to try and look at every angle of this controversial decision. Maybe some of you agree with him. The only changes I have made to the following is to remove his name to respect his privacy. Only the core elements of both our correspondence is included, so I apologise if the following seems a little unconnected.
(COMMENT BY COLLECTOR)
How can the value of a high quality numismatic rarity equate what the auction estimate or for that matter, the passed in price? The value it what it has inherited over the years and can never be touched. Just because current times are reflecting a flat numismatic marketplace and high value items are being passed in due to lack of funds, this does not reflect a reduction in the true value of such items. All this means is that it is a great time to buy as bargains can be obtained, hence the lucky buyers would have made a substantial investment. If vendors decide to have their items passed in, this means that the marketplace is not up to scratch financially and such items can be put away for another time. This does not give precedence to devalue such items; if anything, leave the values as such and allow the marketplace to catch up.
MY REPLY
Let me see if I've got this right. If a 1937 florin sold in 1940 for £1 (just supposing) and in 2005 hit $300,000, you are saying that price must never go down ever again simply because it is a rare coin. That's what you seem to be implying?
You also talk about perception. If I left the price of the 1937 Florin at $350,000 as you want, what perception are people going to think of my book price if one of those coins cannot find a buyer at $100,000. It's also ridiculous to say that auction results should play no part in valuations. This is a forum where coins or banknotes are offered to both collectors or dealers. In today's world where you can bid on line as the item is being sold, it send a message to me when coins don't get a single bid at an estimated that is less than one third of what you want me to reinstate in the book.
When you say that I am destroying the market, you forget that I am also a dealer. If you look through the recent Noble auction you will see that there were a fair number of high quality pre-decimal coins I sold to one of my clients over the years. I also sold him an Adelaide Pound, several sovereigns and a number of pre-decimal proof coins. In all, a reasonable range of coins. None of them went even close to bringing the prices he paid. Remember, this auction happened before the book came out so I couldn't do a last minute adjustment. In some cases the prices paid for these dates were higher than the estimates and they still did not sell. Let me put it this way; When was the last time you ever heard of a dealer advertise that he paid a walk in seller a WORLD RECORD PRICE for an item? I bet the only time you have seen those words uttered is when you are reading and AUCTION report.
As a dealer who has sold millions of dollars worth of coins in a career approaching 40 years don't you think I thought long and hard before I dropped the prices like I did. I didn't do it to destroy the industry. I did it to preserve the long term health of the industry as I felt by continuing the price "myth" people would soon become disillusioned.
You can make all the assumptions and veiled threats that you like, but I did what I did because I thought it was the right thing. Having dealers boycott my book like you suggested would be an advertising bonanza that could double or triple my annual sales. Can you see the heading : "This is the book the dealers don't want you to read - pay the prices you should pay, not the prices they want you to."
Having said that I can understand that because you own a number of the items you cannot look at this issue in an objective way. You are biased as I would be, so I think it best that we agree to disagree.
Quote from: 'Greg McDonald' pid='77516' dateline='1439266747'HI everyone ,
Great lot of comments about the book and even more general comments about pricing in general. It was especially pleasing to get positive, and realistic replies from Shane and Eric who, like me, are at the coal face of the industry. No one likes to tell a collector - and especially an investor - that their prices have gone down. Having said that however, you've only lost if you sell. History will tell you that quite a few millionaires were created during the 1930's - during the Great Depression. I am just as certain that astute collectors will add rare items to their collections that would have been unheard of five years ago.
Apart from the single comments from a dealer already dealt with; I've only had one other serious complaint - and that came from a collector who has a lot of very rare coins. I can, of course sympathise with his perception that the new prices in the book has reduced his collection by a few million. He made this very clear in various comments that he is considering taking legal action as he holds me personally responsible for his loses; my book will be boycotted by dealers and my book will lose all respect within collector ranks.
Anyway this particular collector had a rather unusual solution. In short, don't reduce the prices of rare coins (especially his I imagine). Leave them at their 19th edition prices (where they peaked) and just wait until the market rebounds.
Apart from the single comments from a dealer; I've only had one other serious complaint - and that came from a collector who has a lot of very rare coins. I course I can sympathise with his perception that the new prices in the book has reduced his collection by a few million. He made this very clear in various comments that he is considering taking legal action as he holds me personally responsible for his loses; my book will be boycotted by dealers and my book will lose all respect from collectors.
In putting our email correspondence on a public form is not meant to belittle or embarrass the collector in any way. I have to try and look at every angle of this controversial decision. Maybe some of you agree with him. The only changes I have made to the following is to remove his name to respect his privacy. Only the core elements of both our correspondence is included, so I apologise if the following seems a little unconnected.
(COMMENT BY COLLECTOR)
How can the value of a high quality numismatic rarity equate what the auction estimate or for that matter, the passed in price? The value it what it has inherited over the years and can never be touched. Just because current times are reflecting a flat numismatic marketplace and high value items are being passed in due to lack of funds, this does not reflect a reduction in the true value of such items. All this means is that it is a great time to buy as bargains can be obtained, hence the lucky buyers would have made a substantial investment. If vendors decide to have their items passed in, this means that the marketplace is not up to scratch financially and such items can be put away for another time. This does not give precedence to devalue such items; if anything, leave the values as such and allow the marketplace to catch up.
MY REPLY
Let me see if I've got this right. If a 1937 florin sold in 1940 for £1 (just supposing) and in 2005 hit $300,000, you are saying that price must never go down ever again simply because it is a rare coin. That's what you seem to be implying?
You also talk about perception. If I left the price of the 1937 Florin at $350,000 as you want, what perception are people going to think of my book price if one of those coins cannot find a buyer at $100,000. It's also ridiculous to say that auction results should play no part in valuations. This is a forum where coins or banknotes are offered to both collectors or dealers. In today's world where you can bid on line as the item is being sold, it send a message to me when coins don't get a single bid at an estimated that is less than one third of what you want me to reinstate in the book.
When you say that I am destroying the market, you forget that I am also a dealer. If you look through the recent Noble auction you will see that there were a fair number of high quality pre-decimal coins I sold to one of my clients over the years. I also sold him an Adelaide Pound, several sovereigns and a number of pre-decimal proof coins. In all, a reasonable range of coins. None of them went even close to bringing the prices he paid. Remember, this auction happened before the book came out so I couldn't do a last minute adjustment. In some cases the prices paid for these dates were higher than the estimates and they still did not sell. Let me put it this way; When was the last time you ever heard of a dealer advertise that he paid a walk in seller a WORLD RECORD PRICE for an item? I bet the only time you have seen those words uttered is when you are reading and AUCTION report.
As a dealer who has sold millions of dollars worth of coins in a career approaching 40 years don't you think I thought long and hard before I dropped the prices like I did. I didn't do it to destroy the industry. I did it to preserve the long term health of the industry as I felt by continuing the price "myth" people would soon become disillusioned.
You can make all the assumptions and veiled threats that you like, but I did what I did because I thought it was the right thing. Having dealers boycott my book like you suggested would be an advertising bonanza that could double or triple my annual sales. Can you see the heading : "This is the book the dealers don't want you to read - pay the prices you should pay, not the prices they want you to."
Having said that I can understand that because you own a number of the items you cannot look at this issue in an objective way. You are biased as I would be, so I think it best that we agree to disagree.
I agree with you Greg. Just because people put pressure on you all you can do is do what is right and this correction of prices is both right and necessary. Anyway how can he expect you to just leave prices where they were? This guy wouldn't make it in the stock market with his attitude let alone any market.
wow, just wow.
if I bought shares in anz and they went up to $10 a share then dropped to $8 a share I couldn't say that they are still worth $10 a share because the market is simply not willing to pay that.
likewise with coins, market value is based on supply and demand premise and at the moment the demand is low so the market value is reduced. simple.
likewise if I found a bag full of 100 mint uncirculated 1910 florins and got them all graded then the supply would increase and likewise the market value would decrease in response.
you cannot predict 100% what will happen to the market but the one thing you can be certain of is that market values will change over time, it just happens that this time many items have reduced in value and you have reported on that staking your respected reputation on the fact that you are impartial and right.
He needs to get over his on paper losses and move on because I assure you he will not succeed in a legal action on this matter but will continue to reduce his holdings engaging in one
Quote from: 'serial' pid='77521' dateline='1439271047'wow, just wow.
if I bought shares in anz and they went up to $10 a share then dropped to $8 a share I couldn't say that they are still worth $10 a share because the market is simply not willing to pay that.
likewise with coins, market value is based on supply and demand premise and at the moment the demand is low so the market value is reduced. simple.
likewise if I found a bag full of 100 mint uncirculated 1910 florins and got them all graded then the supply would increase and likewise the market value would decrease in response.
you cannot predict 100% what will happen to the market but the one thing you can be certain of is that market values will change over time, it just happens that this time many items have reduced in value and you have reported on that staking your respected reputation on the fact that you are impartial and right.
He needs to get over his on paper losses and move on because I assure you he will not succeed in a legal action on this matter but will continue to reduce his holdings engaging in one
HI Serial and OMFlorin,
Thanks for the very quick feedback which is really appreciated. You are right Serial, about throwing money to the wind by having a court case. I've just won a case that went for three years. I was award Indemnity Costs as the judge ruled it was a spiteful and totally malicious case with no merit at all. Even thought most people only get about 60% of their costs back when they win, the judge ruled that we should get 100%. Eventually the other side paid up $285,000. Jenny and I didn't see one cent of that money. It all went on legal fees and we still owe them $37,000. You cannot afford justice in this country.
Anyway I digress The above are just a few extracts that were part of five or six very lengthy emails. In one of his last emails where he finally realised I wasn't about to change my mind. He offered the following compromise :-
Greg, do us a favour please. These Patterns (due to their rarity and lack thereof in the marketplace) should not be involved; why not remove their reference from the next edition all together (unless you get a change of heart when the "waters calm down", and decide to place realistic values on them). It's easily justified, I own (most denominations; if a prospective buyer out there wants a piece, I can ask what I want (within realistic pre-22nd edition McDonalds values); if they refuse, I just tell them to "go and source another one". You see what I mean.
I don't think that's going to happen either.
Comments please
how about with the patterns you don't give values but rather report auction sales history for the last couple of sales of the item.
He is right in a way saying that should someone want one then they have to offer an amount that would release it from strong hands given the populations often number in single digits on pattern coins and any value reported is not going to reflect the amount it would take to obtain one.
that way you can still offer the reader information on the coin with rocking the investors boat to much
I see that as a fair compromise
oh and sorry to hear about the court action,
I would beg to differ on that last advice serial
patterns are a part of numismatic history and maccas often references past auction prices
if Greg changes the book from being a generalised price reference
to a 'keep certain folk happy' with a bit for mr x and zip for the rest of the collectors then the book would no longer have numismatic value - it becomes no more than a token gesture in a world of litigious complainants
notes became inflated by dealers being far too greedy and the arse fell out of the game
I think that re-evaluating the coin market with caution is a sensible move and that may in fact help to sustain the market and the investment options
the humiliating fall of the Rare Coin Company - a so called numismatic investment company, has brought a hell of a lot of coin dealers and collectors back to earth
the junket days are coming to an end and this maccas latest edition may very well reflect that
in agreement with serial - if I buy my house for $500,000 and it sells for $450,000 - then that is market on the day & I lose
Problem is robbiegirl when you are dealing with an item were say only 2 are available on the public market and neither is for sale then its value is purely hypothetical and you can't assign it a CV. Its value is pure supply and demand the supply is so finite that the demand (offer) would have to be high enough for supply to become available.
Using your house example it is more like the Sydney harbour bridge. It can't have a value assigned as it isn't for sale and it cost the goverment $13.5 million to build but that doesn't mean its only worth 13.5 million. To obtain it I would need to create supply but offering so much money the government sold it to me. This is the case with pattern or ultra rare proof coins
Notes were made in the hundreds and thousands. That market was over inflated by artificial demand created by the likes of the rare coin company
hummm
but doesn't a past auction price act as an indicator of value ?
if a coin doesn't have an assigned value then it doesn't mean that it has no value
unless one is going for 'priceless'?
even a purchase price may not be a true indicator of value, it is simply what it sold for at that point in time
so it can all become a little philosophical
but that fact would remain that the items would exist and a value must surely be assigned, if for nothing more than insurance purposes?
Quote from: 'serial' pid='77521' dateline='1439271047'wow, just wow.
if I bought shares in anz and they went up to $10 a share then dropped to $8 a share I couldn't say that they are still worth $10 a share because the market is simply not willing to pay that.
likewise with coins, market value is based on supply and demand premise and at the moment the demand is low so the market value is reduced. simple.
likewise if I found a bag full of 100 mint uncirculated 1910 florins and got them all graded then the supply would increase and likewise the market value would decrease in response.
you cannot predict 100% what will happen to the market but the one thing you can be certain of is that market values will change over time, it just happens that this time many items have reduced in value and you have reported on that staking your respected reputation on the fact that you are impartial and right.
He needs to get over his on paper losses and move on because I assure you he will not succeed in a legal action on this matter but will continue to reduce his holdings engaging in one
Did he seriously threaten legal action? I mean come on that is utterly stupid. If you don't mind me asking Greg what in the world did the person think you did so wrong to merit legal action? (the recently wrapped up one.) I mean you are just publishing price movements in the market. I think now days there are people with more dollars than cents if you know what I mean.
absolutely the previous auction result can be an indicator of value, but you have to consider the supply aspect as well. when an item has multiple people interested in it and only 1 such item available then an auction can cause an artificially high price. if after the sale other people go "gee I might sell my item now they are going for that!" then supply increases and demand has decrease by at least one and the price is driven down. This is how most numismatics values are driven up or down however I consider ultra rare items like patterns (eg population of 50 or less) to work on a different playing field as supply is limited not only by availability but also by existence (1937 3d 16 coin mintage vs 1930 penny 3000).
eg the only way you may see such an item is if someone passes away, is in dire need of money or wishes to profit take on the item. and under these terms you may only see the item appear on market once every decade or so. this means that values are out of date as the market has changed drastically since the last sale and you cannot quantify its current value without actually seeing it sell.
hence my suggestion to report sales figures only on ultra rare items
in the end I doubt someone who is considering purchasing a $400k coin is going to use a $30 guide as his sole source of investment advice
I am interested as to what he offered under his notice of intention to sue? only thing I could think of is defamation of the coins character and reputation ;P
but seriously I would think that it would be unreasonable to issue based on someone's opinion of the value of what you own unless you could prove it was malicious in intent and could prove a loss at which point see my previous statement about investment advice
Hi Serial,
I take you point about not putting a price in the body of the text and just referring to auction sales. I've occasionally included recent auction activity when a coin is of special interest or rarely seen in the market place and all LSD pattern coins certainly fall into this category. Problem is, where do you start and finish. If we decide on only 'single digit issues' to treat in this fashion you'd have to include all the gold sovereigns and half sovereign patterns, proofs and specimen issues as well as the 1920 Sydney Mint sovereign. All the Adelaide ingots are unique and just don't appear in Auction. Taylor and Port Phillip gold, silver and copper issues also fit this criteria. You'd also have to include all but a handful of all the pre-decimal George V and George VI bronze and silver issues. We're now talking over 100 issues. Just to round things off we're also looking at the £20, £50 & £100 notes, the £1,000 note and all the George V, GVI and QE2 specimen notes as they appeared in the 21st edition. In theory this is all "do-able" but what a serious amount of work. The other issue is space. Already the book is way past the waterline as far as available space and I just don't think there is enough available space in the FOOTNOTE area accommodate even a few extra lines. Please don't take this as a criticism as I want the book to be as user roundly as possible. The original concept of the book was to write a simple guide of basic prices but over the years both collectors and dealers have offered ideas and information I've added to the mix. Now the book is looking more like an encyclopaedia than a price guide. The way it's going I not going to have anything to say in the BIG book I've been working for over a decade.
I also took a slightly different take on what this collector was talking about. I thought he was suggesting that I make NO reference at all to the coins referred to until they go up to a higher price...maybe not!
Thanks also for your kind thoughts about the court case. Part of life's rich pageant as they say.
Cheers Greg
good luck greg with what ever you do
I admire your integrity Greg by not folding to the demands of individuals with a vested interest and simply doing your research and listing the coin prices accordingly as you always have :good:
The price of any coin isn't written in Stone or any book, It is set by what the buyer will pay and what the seller is comfortable selling for .
Maybe some of the "Greif" you are getting is because some collectors use the prices in your book to value their collections for insurance purposes .
all great comments
and again with the rarities (can't help myself)
they are in a select market and the big guns determine the prices (or heritage auctions)
thus the prices realised may indicate a realised value against a true numismatic and historical value which is what one would acquire from professional/s in the field
speaking of rarities, I would love to see a David Gee page of values - I never know what is right for bidding on them so I don't (and my coin dealer would disown me!!)
it may be a $30 catalogue but it has quite a lineage and has been a source of truth in Australia for over two decades and there is something to be said in that
Viva Maccas!!!!!
Hi Greg,
I agree with all the comments you received so far. I will add the following comments,
1. Market is determined by supply and demand. (you may only have one of a kind coin, however if there are no buyers, then that is worth nothing).
2. Financial stability of the market (Financial crisis people will be more cautious etc)
3. Your book is a price guide, not a price setter. If someone wants something, they pay what they think it is worth. If I may take an example, I have paid over 250% more than the price set by your guide and Walters blue sheet to purchase a coin. Now the bluesheet price has gone up. However that doesnt mean it will stay at that point because the next time similar coins goes on the market, someone may only pay fraction of the value. So the bottom line is price will be set by the market not by an individual or a price guide.
Investing is a risky business, you invest knowing the risks. If someone has valuable coins, they have two simple choices.
1. Keep the coin until market recover.(if they want to sell it)
2. Accept market fluctuations and sell it at the rate it is applicable to the market trends.
This is not different to people loosing millions on share market everyday.
:agreed:
Thanks Trout. Can always rely on you for a positive comment. Interesting point about insurance. Didn't think of that but you are probably right.
Good to hear from your too Robbiegal. I was amazed you mentioned the "coins" of David Gee. I have been collecting images of his many fakes for a few years now with the idea of doing exactly what you suggested. I am quite friendly with a number of people who knew him very well. I had a short introduction to him at a coin and stamp exhibition many years ago. A dealer mate and I were just walking around the stands at the race course if memory serves me right. I was introduced by my friend to a portly well dressed gent as "David." He was an extremely courtesy man and it was until I was standing there as they chatted away that it suddenly realised who was in front of me. Like you, Robbiegal, I think that eventually his "contribution" to Australian numismatics will be recognised in a strange sort of way. He fooled a lot of "experts" and the faces of coin club members can only imagined when he came along for "show and Tell" at the monthly coin club meetings. Imagine being there when he would casually pull out Sydney Mint two and five pound coins; excessively rare gold patterns; unknown kookaburra pence and, of course the totally bogus 1909 florin. As a matter of interest a totally clueless webpage reseller has a lead trial of this coin which he is offering at a five figure sum as a genuine piece. I have emailed twice now telling him it's a David Gee fake but months later it's still on his website. This guy wouldn't know a coin from a land mine and this is pretty evident by his description of the piece. Although it was produced in the early 1970's it is described by once being owned by the last controller of the Sydney Mint, La Souef. That's quite a neat trick as he died in 1944! Anyway Robbiegal, I agree that a book about Gee would be great for lots of reasons. For one thing it would help save unsuspecting collectors from buying certain rarities that are undoubtedly fake. There is a precedent here. In the late 19th century German forger Carl Wilhelm Becker copied countless ancient classical coins and even made up a few! He used to melt down worn real ancient coins to match the correct assay. Many of his coins are probably still in the cabinets of many aristocratic families. There are a lot more in museums in Germany and elsewhere. In fact one of the museums has a whole display devoted to his like and times. Ned Kelly syndrome likes on.
Greg McDonald you don't have to justify yourself to anyone
Every year you issue a Pocket Guide + your other books
Congratulations to you and Jenny for all your contributions over many years
Any individual critical of you is not a true numismatic follower
Take care
I got my books earlier this week and it was good to see a lot of the changes. In some respects some item have not gone down far enough, other are too low, at lot are spot on. But you have to remember it is only a guide. Generally the books reflects what a lot of people are saying and the evidence supports....the market has dropped. From what I have read here Greg in general gets the support of the forum which I think is deserved. I agree on gregs stand with the collector that believes his collection should not be devalued in a book. If this was common practice across the world newspapers would only publish the highest share price achieved on a share and not the current stock market value. Kitco would only publiish the highest gold price achieved.....the list goes on.
Personally I think the value of the maccas catalogue as a resource in this great industry has increased this year because of the greater reflection of the market and the stance Greg has has taken to the detractors.
Well said Shane
I concur, Runaway, great post Shane. As a dealer I am sure you often come across collectors who need to sell their collection to cover bills caused by a turndown in their real estate or stock market portfolios. While these events are accepted as part of the cycle of life, they are horrified if told their coins and banknotes have suffered the same fate. Prices change, it a fact of life. Think of the problems exporters and importers go through all the time. Yesterday I was doing some price comparisons between the 21st and 2nd editions and noticed the change in the relationship between the US and Australian dollar in 18 months. In November 2013 an Australian dollar was worth US$1.06. Today it's worth $.074. A drop of 42%. Funny how no one is complaining about me adjusting the value of bullion related coins to record this correction. Change the value of a rare shilling by 40% and ..................!
Agreed.! :good:
I get plenty of collectors wanting to sell their collections based on their buying price 5 years ago, based on their maccas 3 years ago, based on what bob at the pub said, based on what 'someone' the whoever that is said, based on the fact they made the effort to travel from upper bum crack. All this does not change what the market is at but a lot think so lol.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='77652' dateline='1439420951'I get plenty of collectors wanting to sell their collections based on their buying price 5 years ago, based on their maccas 3 years ago, based on what bob at the pub said, based on what 'someone' the whoever that is said, based on the fact they made the effort to travel from upper bum crack. All this does not change what the market is at but a lot think so lol.
Totally agree Shane. Many years ago I was living in Sydney and got a call from a farmer in Inverell who had found an Arnotts tin biscuit tin half full of florins. I asked him to send me one of the worst and best coins from the 200 plus coins and a list of the dates. Nothing later than 1923 and the two coin he send me were a VF 1915 London Mint and a 1911 florin in about the same grade. Thinking this might be the Mother Lode I went to the bank and got an overdraft of $50,000 so that I could pay up front if we came to an agreement. It was a two day drive and a two day drive bank. We got to the property about 2pm. I sent about two hours looking through the collection only to realise that the two coins he has sent me were the only decent coins in the group. During that time Jenny and I were not even offered a glass of water. 90% of what I looked through were so worn you couldn't even recognise the date of most of the coins. When I explained most of these coins were flat discs and not coins, the best I could do was pay bullion value. When he got the price he was quite insulted. When I asked what was the problem he replied "My bank manager said they'd be worth a lot more."
Did the bank manager offer a price to buy? No!
I have NO problem with the pricing of "Raw" coins in the book.
However I DO have a problem with dealers over grading coins and NOT mentioning them being cleaned, tooled etc.
These are probably the same people Winging about the listed prices in the book.:angel:
Quote from: 'Greg McDonald' pid='77694' dateline='1439459428'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='77652' dateline='1439420951'I get plenty of collectors wanting to sell their collections based on their buying price 5 years ago, based on their maccas 3 years ago, based on what bob at the pub said, based on what 'someone' the whoever that is said, based on the fact they made the effort to travel from upper bum crack. All this does not change what the market is at but a lot think so lol.
I HEAR YOU :wavemulticolor:
Totally agree Shane. Many years ago I was living in Sydney and got a call from a farmer in Inverell who had found an Arnotts tin biscuit tin half full of florins. I asked him to send me one of the worst and best coins from the 200 plus coins and a list of the dates. Nothing later than 1923 and the two coin he send me were a VF 1915 London Mint and a 1911 florin in about the same grade. Thinking this might be the Mother Lode I went to the bank and got an overdraft of $50,000 so that I could pay up front if we came to an agreement. It was a two day drive and a two day drive bank. We got to the property about 2pm. I sent about two hours looking through the collection only to realise that the two coins he has sent me were the only decent coins in the group. During that time Jenny and I were not even offered a glass of water. 90% of what I looked through were so worn you couldn't even recognise the date of most of the coins. When I explained most of these coins were flat discs and not coins, the best I could do was pay bullion value. When he got the price he was quite insulted. When I asked what was the problem he replied "My bank manager said they'd be worth a lot more."
Did the bank manager offer a price to buy? No!
GREAT analogy Greg:yahoo:
https://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/articles/my-review-2015-pocket-guide-australian-coins-and-banknotes?inf_contact_key=78930fed44a0103bb3b52aa9622b54a2044cc37b9465a1a836cbd1d6a647af81 a nice review from andrew
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='77263' dateline='1438917835'but what I don't quite get is that I can go to maccas for raw coin prices (with all of the backdrop of the whinging) with a set reliability each year
then the slabbers buy for way under the raw price in maccas - the so called 'inflated'
then the same slabbing guys sell the same coin for say, 20 times maccas's valuation and nobody so much as sneezes
it is an unreal world once you cross the boarder to the slabbing game
and the real life contradiction is that once it is in an American slabb
people accept the incredibly inflated prices - without all the sooking and whinging - especially if they are selling
frankly I am sick of it all
If a coin sells for 20 times its macca's valuation then perhaps it is worth 20 times. The problem with any catalogue (not Greg's fault) is that it can only quote a few grades and even if they quote Unc, ChUnc and Gem there are probably a number of grades missed (aGem, Gem+ etc). With slabs a coin might be X$ at MS64+ (aGem), and 2X$ at MS65 but jump to 20X$ at MS66.
yeah
all true
it just bows my mind sometimes
because it should skew the over all price guides
But then Neal what happens to that coins value when I get one graded ms67?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='77957' dateline='1440054364'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='77263' dateline='1438917835'but what I don't quite get is that I can go to maccas for raw coin prices (with all of the backdrop of the whinging) with a set reliability each year
then the slabbers buy for way under the raw price in maccas - the so called 'inflated'
then the same slabbing guys sell the same coin for say, 20 times maccas's valuation and nobody so much as sneezes
it is an unreal world once you cross the boarder to the slabbing game
and the real life contradiction is that once it is in an American slabb
people accept the incredibly inflated prices - without all the sooking and whinging - especially if they are selling
frankly I am sick of it all
If a coin sells for 20 times its macca's valuation then perhaps it is worth 20 times. The problem with any catalogue (not Greg's fault) is that it can only quote a few grades and even if they quote Unc, ChUnc and Gem there are probably a number of grades missed (aGem, Gem+ etc). With slabs a coin might be X$ at MS64+ (aGem), and 2X$ at MS65 but jump to 20X$ at MS66.
hence an online guide is the future
Maccas book doesn't price slabbed coins or grade rarities ,it never has.
Raw coins can be a gamble and that is why they are cheaper than the TPG coins.
The prices of raw coins has dropped and i think that the acceptance of the TPG coins has a bit to do with it as well as all the other factors.
If members have issue with Mr McDonald's book then I suggest they take it up with him directly with him rather than stirring the pot on this forum. If the new member in question chooses to start his time on this forum in such a manner and continue with it then his time here is likely to be very short indeed regardless of who he/she happens to be in the numismatic industry.
Has anyone got the new issue of Rennics yet and if so do the price estimates match the ones in the latest Maccas book??
There is no new Rennicks guide since December 2013 49th Edition
Price estimate comparisons are irrelevant anyway as discussed above
New 26th Edition of Renniks available Oct/Nov 2015
It will be interesting to see how Michael sees the Market and the pricings in the new edition :ok:
FWIW... One dealer is not stocking the new edition because they believe there are too many errors in it.
I don't know what those "errors" they are talking about... but if it's the updated prices they don't like then it is bit silly to just refusing to sell it.
:scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='78569' dateline='1441077535'FWIW... One dealer is not stocking the new edition because they believe there are too many errors in it.
I don't know what those "errors" they are talking about... but if it's the updated prices they don't like then it is bit silly to just refusing to sell it.
:scratch_one-s_head:
Yes it will be the pricing and it wouldn't work for the dealer if they sold a handbook
and the customer then looked up a price before leaving the shop only to find vastly inflated prices on the store's coins
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='78572' dateline='1441080889'Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='78569' dateline='1441077535'FWIW... One dealer is not stocking the new edition because they believe there are too many errors in it.
I don't know what those "errors" they are talking about... but if it's the updated prices they don't like then it is bit silly to just refusing to sell it.
:scratch_one-s_head:
Yes it will be the pricing and it wouldn't work for the dealer if they sold a handbook
and the customer then looked up a price before leaving the shop only to find vastly inflated prices on the store's coins
Yeah you're right. I think I will just give up now and not get it from someone else.
ha ha
that is funny Kchan!
QuoteYes it will be the pricing and it wouldn't work for the dealer if they sold a handbook
and the customer then looked up a price before leaving the shop only to find vastly inflated prices on the store's coins
If a Dealer decides a coin is worth X amount then He/she is quite entitled to price it at that, Whither it sells or not is a different matter.
Maccas Book isn't a "Bible" it is Merely a guide , The prices are NOT written in Stone :ok:
If any dealer is too bloody lazy to research the values of his wares and simply uses Maccas book then why are they still in business ??
Any Good dealer will know the Trends for any particular coin and price it accordingly.
This way they actually get to sell their coins and make a small profit, Coins sitting on the shelf for years are an absolute waste of resources, You can ONLY turn a profit by moving inventory.
Dealers who have the opportunity to stock any books or guides then decide to not stock them for only reason too many errors is too judgemental and I would avoid this dealer
Quote from: 'runway' pid='78597' dateline='1441110249'Dealers who have the opportunity to stock any books or guides then decide to not stock them for only reason too many errors is too judgemental and I would avoid this dealer
I quite like these people. Just bit taken back by claims of errors that's all.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78585' dateline='1441103029'If a Dealer decides a coin is worth X amount then He/she is quite entitled to price it at that, Whither it sells or not is a different matter.
Maccas Book isn't a "Bible" it is Merely a guide , The prices are NOT written in Stone :ok:
Exactly - it's just a guide. If a buyer strictly follows the guide and decides to go elsewhere, then he will soon come around if the guide's price is too low.
There are tonnes of useful information in there other than prices!
Exactly kchan1111 and trout
I buy the guides for info and not for prices
Just using the Book as a pricing guide can bite a dealer in the private parts as well.
A couple of years ago I bought a 1972 5c marked as Unc for "Book" price, I subsequently got it graded and it made MS68 .
That is a long way off from "Book" value :ok:
I personally do NOT use Maccas as a guide to coin values, I do my own research and I will use that information when buying coins.
The Book IS a fantastic publication full of information such as mintages etc. and has some rather good piccies in it as well :good:
The Book is purely a "Guide" and NOT a definitive pricing publication, To do that is simply impossible as the Market is "Fluid" and changes all the time.
Greg has done a wonderful job of taking a snapshot in time of the coin values at the time of publication and that is the best that anyone can do with this sort of publication .
I have to add that Greg has done a great service to the numismatic community over the years and has put a lot of Blood, Sweat and tears into every publication.
He should be applauded for this as he is a great asset to the community :ok:
:wavemulticolor:
Ahh, Geez Trout,
Cheques in the mail mate
Greg
Quote from: 'trout' pid='78600' dateline='1441111461'Just using the Book as a pricing guide can bite a dealer in the private parts as well.
A couple of years ago I bought a 1972 5c marked as Unc for "Book" price, I subsequently got it graded and it made MS68 .
That is a long way off from "Book" value :ok:
I personally do NOT use Maccas as a guide to coin values, I do my own research and I will use that information when buying coins.
The Book IS a fantastic publication full of information such as mintages etc. and has some rather good piccies in it as well :good:
The Book is purely a "Guide" and NOT a definitive pricing publication, To do that is simply impossible as the Market is "Fluid" and changes all the time.
Greg has done a wonderful job of taking a snapshot in time of the coin values at the time of publication and that is the best that anyone can do with this sort of publication .
I have to add that Greg has done a great service to the numismatic community over the years and has put a lot of Blood, Sweat and tears into every publication.
He should be applauded for this as he is a great asset to the community :ok:
:wavemulticolor:
Indeed and I second the above comments from trout
:yahoo:
Quote from: 'Greg McDonald' pid='78602' dateline='1441113962'Ahh, Geez Trout,
Cheques in the mail mate
Greg
HeHe
All is Good Mate, I hope you are taking a bit of a Breather before you start researching the next edition Mate :good:
ha ha
sweet Greg!!!
I use that expression too
the young ones don't have the foggiest of what I am on about!!
I have to translate and say - thanks for the compliment - I will EFT some $$$ - you'll get an SMS text advising of the transfer ...... keep an eye out in your phone messages
I liked the average selling price in the guide
I have just purchased the 22nd Edition of Greg's book and I was warned by the sales rep that the book is full of errors and people are giving this issue a big miss.
I have had a quick glimpse through it and I have noticed quite a few errors.
Have you been receiving adverse comments re this edition Greg?
I shall start a thread for the errors I find in the 22nd Edition shortly.
Just go here 2015 maccas errors (https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=4024) instead.