I have had a number of coins in vinyl sheet pockets without a cardboard holder for many years and as the result the coins have developed a smoky appearance which wipes off easily. I am reluctant to touch them. is there a liquid or solvent that could get rid of the smoky appearance?
(//%5BURL=http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/2001%2020c%20Bradman%20unc%201_zpsdhskydui.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/2001%2020c%20Bradman%20unc%201_zpsdhskydui.jpg)[/URL][/img]
What you have here is typical PVC residue, If it hasn't started to eat away at the surface of the coins yet then they are salvageable.
I lost a lot of my pre decimals because of this very thing because I got to them far too late :dash1:
Try soaking in acetone for a couple of days then rinsing in new acetone after the soak.
Do NOT be tempted to "rub" the coins , let the acetone do the work :ok:
When you have treated all the coins put them in 2x2's or saflips, Then get hold of some archival quality pages and binders to house them in safely .
These are what I and many other collectors use
http://www.thepurplepenny.com/2,pvc-free-coin-album-and-slip-cover-with-10-pvc-free-album-pages-to-suit-2x2-coin-holders.html
Once you have done all that, Take great satisfaction by taking all the old PVC laden albums out the backyard and BURN those puppies :diablo::good:
Thanks trout, are the PVC sheets those old nice feeling soft plastic that also react with laser printed pages, transferring the text from the paper to the plastic? I have had them for 20 years at least. It seems all my old coins have survived better in a big lacquered box better than those in "numismatic PVS sheets", quite awful...
I have bought new sheets from purplepenny and will now replace all PVCs.
Is this the culprit PVC sheet?
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/img06162015_0001_zpsbhaxfdll.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/img06162015_0001_zpsbhaxfdll.jpg.html)
Yes, I hate those thing with a passion because of the damage they caused me.
Those things burn beautifully Mate :good:
Don't buy acetone at a pharmacy -about 5 times dearer than Bunnings, Big W, hardware store or paint store.
Even though nail polish remover is basically acetone don't use it; has all sorts of (possibly undesirable) additives.
Soak in a sealed container or acetone will all evaporate within minutes.
A final rinse in distilled or demineralised water is desirable and pat dry with towelling or tissue. Look in the ironing products section of a supermarket for suitable water. It is quite cheap.
But to be fair to the PVC those coins that are in cardboard sealed or stapled holders have survived well, only those coins that were in pouches without any protection have suffered.
Quote from: '5 rubles' pid='74398' dateline='1434414078'But to be fair to the PVC those coins that are in cardboard sealed or stapled holders have survived well, only those coins that were in pouches without any protection have suffered.
That's because the BoPET (Mylar) in the mounts acts as a barrier to the relatively large molecules of the fumes leaching from the PVC.
However, if the seal isn't perfect, they offer little protection. And the glue on the self-adhesive ones lets go after a while, especially with larger, heavier coins. Better to use non-adhesive mounts and iron them shut for a perfect seal.
How can an "Ironed" mount seal itself if there is no glue etc to stick too?
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='74409' dateline='1434431336'How can an "Ironed" mount seal itself if there is no glue etc to stick too?
Same principle of using a heat sealer on saflips.
The plastic "welds" itself airtight due to the heat applied.
Pretty much like we used to do with glad wrap on the cut off sleeves on our "pollys" in the Army Mate :ok:
I understand that trout but Fulvio's last comment is what my question is aimed at.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='74431' dateline='1434461989'I understand that trout but Fulvio's last comment is what my question is aimed at.
Like he said, ironing them (carefully so as not to melt the window, or yellow the cardboard) fuses the plastic together and makes it a single piece.
So all my original RAM coins in these old covers are getting sick too, those covers feel same as the PVC album sheets. I have to put another order to purplepenny to replace all my album sheets and order more staple cardboard covers.
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/img06172015_0002_zps29jvy8qb.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/img06172015_0002_zps29jvy8qb.jpg.html)
This leads to my notes, I assume that notes are effected by PVC storage sheets too. any advice what to use for them, I did not see storage sheets for notes on their website.
Quote from: '5 rubles' pid='74441' dateline='1434500153'This leads to my notes, I assume that notes are effected by PVC storage sheets too. any advice what to use for them, I did not see storage sheets for notes on their website.
Refer to topic -
http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=1002&highlight=vario
These RAM folders don't survive well in PVC sheets either or is the reason something in the folder cardboard that stains the coin? I have other coins in stapled cardboard covers right next to them that are much shinier.
Is it better to pull these coins out of the RAM folders and soak in acetone too, which is making a big difference in some of the coins in less that one hour.
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/img06172015_0003_zpsv5djp5sw.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/img06172015_0003_zpsv5djp5sw.jpg.html)
Quote from: '5 rubles' pid='74464' dateline='1434518271'These RAM folders don't survive well in PVC sheets either or is the reason something in the folder cardboard that stains the coin?
The folders aren't sealed, so whether they're PVC or not, the air can get to the coins. Better to separate coins and packaging and store separately.
QuoteBetter to separate coins and packaging and store separately.
I do that all the time , Coins go into the album packaging goes into the "round file" :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='74467' dateline='1434520489'packaging goes into the "round file" :)
Yeah, and hasn't that worked out well for you? I think you've destroyed more value than most peoples' entire collections are worth. :angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='74471' dateline='1434522817'Quote from: 'trout' pid='74467' dateline='1434520489'packaging goes into the "round file" :)
Yeah, and hasn't that worked out well for you? I think you've destroyed more value than most peoples' entire collections are worth. :angel:
i think we are talking "perceived value" here, I wonder how much value will be retained with the coins in the original packaging turning green and sticky/nasty or just plain totally tarnished in 10 or so years , if not already ?
I think I would much rather have a brilliant uncirculated coin that is fully lustrous in my collection without packaging than some shoddy PVC damaged/Heavily tarnished coin that is still in its mint packaging any day :ok:
Each to their own But I don't want to listen to collectors a few years down the track complaining the about the ruined coins in their packkyboxitis collection because someone told them that they are worth more that way.
I will keep the original PVC folder + card and pair it with the coin if needed sometime in the future.
Quote from: '5 rubles' pid='74482' dateline='1434529126'I will keep the original PVC folder + card and pair it with the coin if needed sometime in the future.
And this is the sensible approach. Never forget you can only throw something away once.
Interesting point about perceived value, Trout. Isn't that precisely the debate we're having over in the crypto thread?
At the end of the day, absolutely everything is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, no matter how rare, shiny or useful it is.
I just think its better to hedge your bets, in this case by keeping the packaging, much of which is not toxic, BTW, in the event of a future demand.
Well said Fulvio, the value of an item (or an idea) is dependent on how much the person wants it. This is why at auctions you must have a maximum price you are prepared to pay for an item and stick to it so that in the emotional situation of bidding you don't get carried away. We humans are highly emotional beings and that can lead to impulses that we later regret. Advertisers know that and items are laced with attractive people, surroundings and packaging, this includes music that appeals to the potential buyer, the colours used in the packaging and the film set. One would not try to sell bathroom cleaning products in a brown tiled bathroom, they are always sparkling white. People have a psychological perception that white is pure and clean.
When evaluating a coin, if it is brilliantly shiny and packaged in those clear capsules, the perceived value is high because the person looking at it likes it and wants to have it. You can even mate that coin with a one page data and history sheet and the value of the coin goes up again. It is all about presentation and making the buyer want it. Remember there is a difference in "want" and "need". Need is easily determined by a simple logical process, want is much harder to define and justify.
Sorry to slip from tarnished coins to psychology...
Yeah,the Multinationals particulary the Tobacco Co.'s spend a small fortune on Psychology in marketing.
What you see....
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/MnRgYT.png)
What you subconsious MAY see.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Uc11uq.png)
I imagined James Hunt sitting on the side pod with a cigarette in his hand and a pretty girl sitting next to him... awaiting for her turn..
I can picture that now.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10055/JH_girl_fag.jpg)
What was she waiting her turn for...a drag of the fag, a drive of his car or a kiss?
Talking of his car this is what he commonly drove. He was also known to turn up to the BBC to do race commentary (after he retired from racing) on a bicycle!
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10055/A35.jpg)
That is an Austin A35 van. Could you imagine a current F1 driver turning up in, say, a Corolla station wagon?
As you know James was a ladies' man and the story goes that he once had a romantic night with 17 out of 20 British Airways female flight crew in China, if I remember right. So, yes, the girl is waiting for him, not the cigarette.. She is also wrapped in gold suit, so matching for a winner.
We'll probably get a warning from the moderators for drifting off the subject.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='74535' dateline='1434591595'That is an Austin A35 van.
And a collector's item!
Want!
NEED!
MUST HAVE!
:angel:
Oh, and if we're going to hijack the thread into F1, check this out:
http://www.bitpixr.com/i/dogecoin-formula-1/
How cool is that? :angel:
Now, back to cleaning coins. so I bathe the contaminated coins in acetone, which i got from Bunnings. I don't know if it is pure or not as some may have tiny amounts of contaminants apparently. After thorough bathing i can see a big change, most of the cloudiness on the surface of the coin is gone and even some of the discolouration or tan is reduced. Some websites suggest 2 minutes bathing but I found 2 minutes only get them wet and do not remove any contaminants. So I have left the coins in overninght. Once clean i pick them up with wooden chopsticks and rinse in clean acetone. Next step I do not understand, why should I rinse the coins in pure water? Water is an oxidiser and not an inert liquid like acetone. In its pure form acetone evaporates totally leaving no residue but water will kick off oxidising reaction. Can some explain what to do after acetone rinse pls.
I don't use water I simply rinse in new acetone and shake the coin holding it by the rim to remove the last of the acetone.
NO need to rinse in water :ok:
I did some testing using a small mirror. After the first acetone bath I pulled the coin out and let a drop off the coin fall on a mirror, after evaporating there was a nasty stain left which was obviously anything that had dissolved in the acetone. Repeat the test again this time i rinsed the coin in fresh acetone and led a drop fall on the mirror. Again a nasty stain which was difficult to wipe off the mirror. Third test: I dunked the coin in the first bath, then in the rinse acetone and then in warm water and let a drop fall from the coin onto the mirror (just tap water this time). I am now awaiting for the water to evaporate to see the residue.
Some suggest to use isopropyl alcohol after the acetone and then purified water.
Cleaning was not as simple as I thought, acetone leaves a nasty cloudy stain on the coin so something else must be used after that. Apparently acetone will contaminate very easily, as soon as the bottle is opened, air and water will mix into it, it is no longer pure.
This coin came back from PCGS the first time graded Genuine (99 - PVC Residue) .in a "Boddybag"
I did the acetone treatment and this is the coin now :ok:
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/32123413
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/nz_florin.jpg)
Acetone does a great job removing the bulk of the contaminants, I am looking at the best solution to give that last 2% shine. There is a little bit still to be gained after the acetone bath, just have to experiment and find out how.
Quote from: '5 rubles' pid='74592' dateline='1434667335'Acetone does a great job removing the bulk of the contaminants, I am looking at the best solution to give that last 2% shine. There is a little bit still to be gained after the acetone bath, just have to experiment and find out how.
The PVC sometimes eats the surface of the coin and no matter how many times you soak it in acetone that damage will stay there.
I can see the corrosion in some coins Caused by PVC trout, I have to admit irreversible damage has been done.
This mirror has been dipped into rinse acetone half way down. After the acetone has evaporated it leaves a cloudy surface and the bottom of the mirror where the droplet has accumulated and evaporated is more cloudier than the top. Does anyone have any ideas how to remove that?
Note that dunking the mirror in warm water does nothing to the cloud. I need something that dissolves with acetone but leaves no cloud stain behind. Or is this as good as I am going to get them?
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/20150619_094643_zpsk0nswhrw.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/20150619_094643_zpsk0nswhrw.jpg.html)
Looks like your acetone is contaminated Mate.
So it seems but how? it is straight out of a bottle and only few coins have gone through it so far.
You are right trout, the batch was contaminated, a new fresh rinse acetone leaves no residue, all good now. thanks for the help.
I'll be using that mirror to test my rinse batch every now and then, it shows contamination really well.
This 2002 Outback coin that has not been near the PVC sheets also present tarnishing. they are in their original RAM cardboard holders. The reverse of the coin is damaged but the obverse is fine. The plastic has the inprint of the coin visible.
Is this also PVC damage? Do the 2002 covers contain PVC?
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/img06222015_0001_zpsszpuaspm.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/img06222015_0001_zpsszpuaspm.jpg.html)
That outback dollar is pretty much Buggered Mate.
Heaps of people have a go at me because I remove my coins from the mint packaging and put them either in 2x2's or saflips.
THIS is why I do that :ok:
I will be pulling out all the old coins from RAM cards, they are not safe to keep coins in. It seems in the coming 20 years 99% of the RAM card coins are totally damaged so your rescued coins will be worth a lot more trout.
I think that coins kept in a jar are keeping better than in RAM plastics, that's just my opinion. I have seen others and my own old coins too, survive much better. I have had dollar coins in cardboard boxes without any cover and all they have is a nice patina.
That Outback coin is straight out of the covers and come a bit better in 24 hour acetone bath.
QuoteHeaps of people have a go at me because I remove my coins from the mint packaging and put them either in 2x2's or saflips.
That is good practice in my opinion. However, try not to damage the packaging and keep it. If you ever sell the coins later then buyers do like to also get the original packaging.
When did RAM start using mylar in their packaging? Obviously they did not in the early 2000.
When using acetone bath for cleaning coins, has anyone noticed the temperature affecting the cleaning outcome? Generally warmer liquid works better than cold therefore now, during the cold months, the coins may need two day bath instead of one day bath in summer.
Makes sense -Brownian Motion activity (random movement of molecules in a fluid to save you looking it up) increases with temperature.
So, put your soak container in a warm spot to minimise the time required.
OK, now when placing coins into the Acetone, can the coins be touching or should they be kept apart?
Further, do you stand the coin on it's edge or can they be left lying down?
Yes, I know, dumb questions but I need to know please.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='74781' dateline='1435038163'OK, now when placing coins into the Acetone, can the coins be touching or should they be kept apart?
Further, do you stand the coin on it's edge or can they be left lying down?
Yes, I know, dumb questions but I need to know please.
One coin at a time and I put a couple of tissues into the bottom of the jar so that the coin doesn't get damaged with the contact to the glass :ok:
OK, Thanks trout. Will give it a try.
I will take before and after photos of the coin(s) and post so all can see the result(s).
Does acetone cleaning affect coin values? Just curious as most everyone says "DO NOT CLEAN".. lol
I have run a small test; I took two identically PVC stained coins and soaked one in acetone for 24 hours at Sydney winter garage temperature, about 10-15 degrees C. That cleaned the coin quite a bit but not enough for my liking. I left that coin as a reference and left another similar coin in acetone now for 5 days. the result is remarkable. about 80% of the PVC stains are gone. so the coin goes back in the soak. I expect the coin to be almost mint in 2-5 days. I will post pictures once the experiment is finished.
To answer other posts asking how to stack the coins, I have a glass lunch box size container with alfoil cover topped with its original plastic lid for good seal. I stack the coins on the bottom so that first is flat against the bottom then the following coins are resting on the edge of the previous coin and so the coins circle around the container resting on each other. The contact area between each coin is very small so that causes no problems. I tilt the container from time to time to move the acetone without moving the coins. I use wooden chopstics to handle the coins.
To qman69, I do not clean circulated coins because that tan or patina is very valuable. I only soak mint coins stained by PVC covers. Also never put copper coins in acetone, it makes them purple in just few minutes. try that with an old one cent coin if you like to have a rare purple copper coin and sell it on ebay...LOL.
What does a pvc stained coin look like? Also I now have a heap of copper/bronze 1cent Straits Settlement coins...they are ranging from brown,red,streaky,green stuff etc. would be nice to clean them up if possible. They have had a hard life in a PVC coin album, and most likely have been sitting in that album for 30-40+years. I have given them a wash in warm soapy water with a quick rub with an old soft toothbrush.
This use of Acetone does not cure all evils.
If it is taking multiple bath's to remove the PVC
it is most probable that the coin has sufferred surface damage.
1971 50c from Mint Set Wallet.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1971%2050%20Cents/1971%20001%20Before_zpsxfl7pqir.jpg)
After three Baths
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1971%2050%20Cents/1971%20002%20After%20Acetone_zpsnyount6t.jpg)
12 Months Later, Coin has Permanent Carbon Damage
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/ACF%20Odd%20Stuff/1971%2050%20Cents/1971%20003%20After%2012m_zps0xazwyy3.jpg)
PVC stain looks like a cloudy layer on a coin. if it is bad, it turns green, what i have read and feels sticky. soap and water is a very soft cleaner and does not remove pvc from affected coins. That green layer is an acid compound and should be cleaned otherwise it will eat the rest of the coin.
I hope experts here will also advice, i do not claim to be one.
Acetone will dissolve most plastics like PVC and anything organic, it is safe on most coins. The modern Australian Dollar and 20 cent coin cleans well and will not discolour, not sure about silver, i have not cleaned any. Copper, definitely not in acetone. I would be reluctant to put tooth paste on any coins.
Can you upload a picture here so others can advice.
Toothpaste NO!
I have never had "coppers turn purple after prolonged soak on acetone. I always give them a rinse in water asap after removing them from the soak.
Have you been sold a bottle of contaminated acetone?
When I give coins an initial soak in warm water I add a drop of detergent as a wetting agent. AlBr coins ($2 & $2) do not like most detergents -the colourful die plays havoc with them. I have found that window cleaner (blue), which seems to be alcohol based, is better.
Don't know about contamination JeffH, just regular Bunnings acetone. I read about it on internet and tried myself, and yes, purple it became.
lol... only warm soapy water and an old soft toothbrush..no toothpaste involved!
Here is a pic of the 1c coins..odd that there are so many different shades of colour.
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~qman/coins/1cent.jpg)
Those look really cool :good:
very impressive gman69, what a beautiful arrangement, that could be a design for a material or just a big picture on the wall. I would not clean them with anything, now they look like time has stopped and those coins have a long story to tell, so many hands and so many places they have been. What have they bought over their life time? amasing. Can you imagine the dna they have, like a bank vault of human history. just preserve them as well as you can making sure the green copper oxide does not spread.
This is the best "group photo" i have.
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/RAMint%20apr%202014%201_zpssc4whpfx.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/RAMint%20apr%202014%201_zpssc4whpfx.jpg.html)
wow great collection qman
I have a small professional ultrasonic cleaner and have at time popped coins in it
I put the coins on a silicone mat in the machine
it loosens the grunge but doesn't really remove it, so I still have to rub the coin with a clothe anyways so I think it works similar to warm water and a toothbrush! and you safe a thousand bucks in the process!!
a bit of an oil type lubricant on those green sections might help to retard further growth especially if you have given the Verdi grise some water to react with
I have a couple of ultrasonic cleaners I sometimes use with coins -didn't actually buy them for that.
I put a plastic food container in the cleaners -as large as will fit- I have cut some polycarbonate sheets to fit neatly in the containers and drilled a lot of small holes in them for good fluid circulation. Lay a sheet in and then a layer of coins, then another sheet, more coins and so on. Any more than four layers of coins seems ineffective.
I use water with a drop of detergent and it can become quite dirty. Cleaners can overheat if run continuously and recommended maximum 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off. I find at least four cycles of this is needed.
After removing the coins then a rinse in clean water and pat dry. Some come up very well and some still look the same. Sometimes I get a yellowish film on some coins; I think some contaminant on one of them is probably responsible. A quick clean with acetone usually removes that and then another go in the ultrasonic cleaner for them.
Any still dirty (and maybe worth keeping) I give a similar go in my smaller cleaner with water with a teaspoon of acetone added. That often does show significantly more improvement.
I stress that these are noodled, circulated coins only -that would otherwise go back to the pond- and would never do it with mint set coins
It's amazing how dirty the water becomes with a batch of old pennies or halfpennies. I don't think this procedure really gets them cleaner than a toothpick and acetone or xylene. But it is convenient just to press the timer button every now and then and walk away to do something else.
I think the yellowish film can also be from olive oil
I have heard that it can do that to coins and over the years it develops in a hard film
Here is a sample of cleaning PVC damage with acetone. Both coins have been in a pvc containing album sheet without any other protection for about 14 years. The damage to both coins were identical. The "cloudy" coin has not been treated with anything. The damaged coins feel sticky to touch. 5 hours of acetone bath resulted in much improved look in the darker appearing coin which has much more shine and lustre now.
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/hannu2009/PVC%20damaged_zpsg5vre1zv.jpg) (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/hannu2009/media/PVC%20damaged_zpsg5vre1zv.jpg.html)
Ha har the beauty of PVC, leave it long enough and it will tone the coin and sometimes very pretty colours. toothpaste is abrasive