Hi,
does anyone use these guys at all? (APCGS)
I recently seen 2 coins for sale graded MS70.
I had a look at the PCGS population report and the highest they had graded were ms66 and ms68.
Checked out the APCGS population report and these coins weren't even on their list.
I seen a few things with each coin that would suggest that the coins wouldn't grade a ms70 with PCGS. I did read on the APCGS website that they grade coins to Australian standards and not world standards?
Are Australian standards lower on the Sheldon scale?
Any opinions, experience or comments are welcome.
APCGS standards are APCGS standards. I would not be surprised that, if you submit a coin for grading, your suggestion of what grade you expect will weigh heavily for the final result.
Their grades are not credible, not consistent and bear little relationship to other third party graders.
Seems to be a large element of "amateur hour" with them. I have heard rhat people associated with this company do not have good reputations in the coin community but don't know if this is true.
I will be interested to read the comments that are sure to follow.
There is no correlation what so ever between PCGS/NGC and APCGS. The closest example in Economics would be the Philips Curve after 1948 (None whatsoever.)
There's a lot of suss things with that lot and a few things I don't like, like them not putting colours on especially predecimal proofs, yes BR are easy to pick but it's a very fine line between RD and RB. Actually thought they would have closed down by now and especially having PW selling them with his polished junk.
This thread can only end in tears :ok:
We probably have members (Sleepers) on this site that utilise APCGS to overgrade their overpriced coins on eBay and other sites that WILL take offence.
Who really gives a Rats arse anyway, NOT me :laugh2::diablo:
I agree whole heartily , Jayson
Quote from: 'Oldcoinchest' pid='74040' dateline='1433664009'Hi,
does anyone use these guys at all? (APCGS)
I recently seen 2 coins for sale graded MS70.
I had a look at the PCGS population report and the highest they had graded were ms66 and ms68.
Checked out the APCGS population report and these coins weren't even on their list.
I seen a few things with each coin that would suggest that the coins wouldn't grade a ms70 with PCGS. I did read on the APCGS website that they grade coins to Australian standards and not world standards?
Are Australian standards lower on the Sheldon scale?
Any opinions, experience or comments are welcome.
Hi OCC,
Depending on the year they were graded by APCGS will depend on the actual grade assigned. Their standards have been constantly changing to keep up with the markets acceptance of them (they have a large following on Facebook)
If I recall, coins that are currently graded by them actually have some sort of guarantee (based on their website, though it looks like a rip off of what NGC have) however they have also started the grade some coins extremely tough (wrong?)
They claim to use Australia Standards, but I have seen many EF / AU coins they have graded which would be low / mid MS coins at PCGS / NGC, and then MS coins which have had a clean / brush that would no grade at PGCS / NGC.
Here is an example I purchased as an AU50.
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y484/Fr45h3R/DSC_0002%2035_zpscgmaceb1.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y484/Fr45h3R/DSC_0003%2014_zpszuri4quf.jpg)
The plastic surround on the coin is also something that doesn't sit right with me. It smells quite horrible, and the coin has been out of the holder for months but it still has the plastic smell.
Best advice with this mob is, is to buy the coin and not the holder.
Be wary of their 'error' coins as well, as I have seen a few blatant shed jobs in their holders.
Do you have links to the MS70's?
-rob
Thanks Rob. Good advice. Thanks for the input.
I don't have the links but it was a facebook sale page. (FNQ) buy, swap and sell. I didn't want to bring it up there while this guy was trying to sell his coins. Was just interesting and wanted to know more about this mob and gather others thoughts.
(Not thoughts about the mob out the fronts of Kels place. but cool photo Kel.) Cheers Steve
APCGS have their own standards that are not in any way related to anyone else's. I'd appreciate it if the usual subjects (you know who you are) could refrain from slandering them and posting TOTALLY OFF TOPIC in this thread.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='74097' dateline='1433751998'APCGS have their own standards that are not in any way related to anyone else's. I'd appreciate it if the usual subjects (you know who you are) could refrain from slandering them and posting TOTALLY OFF TOPIC in this thread.
Yesum Boss, point taken, but I didn't slander anyone apart from expanding on some sleepers over a bottle of red:blush:
It would be fantastic if APCGS graded to the same standards as PGCS/NGC.
It would save me a fortune in postage and would be a far faster turnaround than sending my coins to the US.
However as yet this is not the case and the company has a bad reputation because of its history of overgraded coins and its inability to detect cleaned of even fake coins.
I am led to believe that there has been a change of ownership/management and are now operating in a more professional manner.
As far as I am concerned the horse has bolted for this company to gain a good reputation as a TPG and I will be sticking to PCGS and NGC until we get a bonafide Australian TPG :ok:
QuoteI am led to believe that there has been a change of ownership/management and are now operating in a more professional manner.
I hope that is true. It would be good to have a professional, trustworthy TPG in Australia.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='74097' dateline='1433751998'APCGS have their own standards that are not in any way related to anyone else's. I'd appreciate it if the usual subjects (you know who you are) could refrain from slandering them and posting TOTALLY OFF TOPIC in this thread.
If this is aimed at me just say so because I fell it was indirectly :dodgy: I really couldn't give a f**k who I upset any more as others here don't and they can try and sue me but a bit hard to get blood from a stone and if it's such a problem why start the site or just ban me and be done with it because I really don't care any more and especially because of all the compulsive liars that I'm slowly working out who they are :dodgy: Yet again turning us into the US where you can lie your arse off and it's all good and not get into trouble but tell the truth and all hell breaks loose :dash1:
gee where the flying f** did all that come from AJ?
it looks to me that Mark was cautioning a few members in the delicacies of forums
my own personal opinion is that any start up business that trades with a similar business name to another successful and established company without financial and business collaboration is downright dodgy brothers business activity. So I see the fundamentals to the business as not reliable which is why I wouldn't have faith in the end products.
I can't understand why PCGS hasn't shut down that trading name. They are probably such small fish that they aren't bothering?
it would be no different if I started a sunglasses company called ray bans and tried to trade off that companies' established reputation and consistent quality assurance whilst at the same time blatantly deceiving buyers with like packaging etc
no different if I opened up purple pennies with a like shopfront .. tempted though ... I reckon purple penny is a great trade name :)
Quote from: 'Oldcoinchest' pid='74088' dateline='1433730193'Thanks Rob. Good advice. Thanks for the input.
I don't have the links but it was a facebook sale page. (FNQ) buy, swap and sell. I didn't want to bring it up there while this guy was trying to sell his coins. Was just interesting and wanted to know more about this mob and gather others thoughts.
(Not thoughts about the mob out the fronts of Kels place. but cool photo Kel.) Cheers Steve
I think it was more related to the topic went to kangaroo's. Its interesting as I still see more coins coming out slabbed from them and its pretty clear what people here think. So people use them but I don't see why. May aswell just be like the PeterWallace (sellers account) guy on ebay and just give ungraded coins your opinion. Its funny to see ms68 in the title and the picture of the coin is raw. Then gives himself a wrap in the description.
Maybe someone here should look into doing that with their experience? But then where would the anticipation be?
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='75105' dateline='1435860338'Quote from: 'markn' pid='74097' dateline='1433751998'APCGS have their own standards that are not in any way related to anyone else's. I'd appreciate it if the usual subjects (you know who you are) could refrain from slandering them and posting TOTALLY OFF TOPIC in this thread.
If this is aimed at me just say so because I fell it was indirectly :dodgy: I really couldn't give a f**k who I upset any more as others here don't and they can try and sue me but a bit hard to get blood from a stone and if it's such a problem why start the site or just ban me and be done with it because I really don't care any more and especially because of all the compulsive liars that I'm slowly working out who they are :dodgy: Yet again turning us into the US where you can lie your arse off and it's all good and not get into trouble but tell the truth and all hell breaks loose :dash1:
Certain Australian companies or businesses have such a "Flimsy" reputation mainly based by association of certain other successful enterprises and they more than willing to open up a lawsuit against anyone who publicly questions their integrity :ok:
I personally have had "run ins" with a backer/supporter of one of these particular type of companies and from my experience they are a particularly offensive, threatening and quite simply Nasty types of people.
I imagine Markns post in regard to APCGS is more about defending this site from a lawsuit than an attack on certain members here and I fully agree with his reaction.
So stop sooking AJ, All is good Mate :ok:
well no one seems to murmur when the name peterwallace is mentioned (over and over here)
any defamation suits can be based on clear identification of a person and that one is mentioned very clearly
the grade MS is not a PCGS trademarked or copyrighted grading system
it was around long before PCGS were established so any coin person can use that when grading a coin
thanks you WIKKI;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_coin_grading_scale
Original Sheldon Scale (1949)[edit]
In 1949 the original scale was first presented in "Dr. William H. Sheldon's Early American Cents" titled "A Quantitative Scale for condition" as a way to grade Large cents the scale is known today as the Sheldon scale.[1]
Grade
1 Basal State-1
2 About Good
3 About Good
4, 5, 6 Good
7, 8, 10 Very Good
12, 15 Fine
20, 30 Very Fine
40 Extremely Fine
50 About Uncirculated
60 Mint State
65 Mint State
70 Mint Station
Adopted scale (1970s–present)[edit]
By 1953 the original Sheldon scale had become outdated, it was not until the 1970s however that the ANA chose to adopt the scale for use on all US coins.[2] The scale used today has taken the original Sheldon scale and added adjustments, additions, deletions, and modifications to it.[3][4]
Note: Some early American coin varieties are almost always found weakly struck in places, this does not bring the grade of a coin down and is normal for early coins.[5]
Uncirculated grades[edit]
Mint State most commonly refers to a coin's condition and is thus given a grade used in numismatics. It is given to a coin which was not used or has not been in circulation yet, and thus can be described "as new" or "Uncirculated".[3]
In modern-day United States numismatics, mint state coins are given a number from 60 to 70 inclusive, with 70 being perceived as a perfect coin with no visible blemishes. Coins with a lower grade (60-63), although unworn, may suffer from weak striking, bag marks and other defects that make them less attractive to the collector. Some early coins appear quite worn looking in mint state, due to striking problems or problems with the coin's Planchet or metal quality, while others today are unknown to be in uncirculated condition.[6][7] The terms Brilliant (Abbr: BU), Choice, and Gem have been used to describe Uncirculated grades. A Brilliant uncirculated coin can describe any coin over the grade of MS60. Choice Uncirculated is used for coins MS-64 and above, while Gem Uncirculated is used for coins graded MS65 and above.[8]
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75117' dateline='1435884752'well no one seems to murmur when the name peterwallace is mentioned (over and over here)
any defamation suits can be based on clear identification of a person and that one is mentioned very clearly
the grade MS is not a PCGS trademarked or copyrighted grading system
it was around long before PCGS were established so any coin person can use that when grading a coin
That's a fair point Robbie, Touche.
cheers I wouldn't know that fella if I fell over him
but he is quite infamous in this forum!!
but the good thing about discourse is that we have the conversations and with a bit of research, know that we can cheerfully list our coins as MS this and that without fear
although most people say 'my opinion is' or 'professionally graded'(sometimes with the by whom details i.e. status international auction etc.)
You bring up a good point and I guess my opinion was clouded. Just learning about PCGS coin grading recently and the grading system tends to be associated with it so much if you see it anywhere without a slab, you tend to dismiss the opinion. Sometimes the trees get in the way of seeing the forest.
But I guess now the clouds have cleared (a little) I can see it no different from a dealers opinion of unc, c/unc g/unc etc...
I guess its fair for old mate to give his opinion. He probably has more experience than most?
as I said I wouldn't know him if I fell over him
so I have NO opinion
for myself, I do trust many of the established dealers and of course my own coin dealer who I think is one of Australia's best!! (loyalty for you)
there are a lot of very experienced hobbyist collectors who I also trust very much for grading, their opinions around grade, authenticity, error detection etc
after a decade or so of collecting and being mentored, one develops a trusted network and that is good enough for me - the proof is in the pudding
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75132' dateline='1435895448'cheers I wouldn't know that fella if I fell over him
but he is quite infamous in this forum!!
but the good thing about discourse is that we have the conversations and with a bit of research, know that we can cheerfully list our coins as MS this and that without fear
although most people say 'my opinion is' or 'professionally graded'(sometimes with the by whom details i.e. status international auction etc.)
Other than his user name do we actually know if there is someone called "Peter Wallace"?
I am certain that peter rabbit is real not so sure about peter w
There are reasons other than legal that compel me to avoid on-going discussion of APCGS and their methods here. It brings down the tone of the forum and leads to a mob-mentality that we don't need. If you want to see an extreme example of how crazy it can end up (and you have Facebook account) I suggest you look at the link below. The person running the page is anti-PCGS/NGC and sounds more than a little irrational. I'd hate for a thread in this forum to end up sounding the same.
https://www.facebook.com/AustralianCoins
hey funny
I clicked the link and the big fat picture of the 1939 halfpenny is my coin - my picture has been pinched from my ebay listing - no acknowledgement either
real professional eh?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75187' dateline='1435994202'hey funny
I clicked the link and the big fat picture of the 1939 halfpenny is my coin - my picture has been pinched from my ebay listing - no acknowledgement either
real professional eh?
Oh yeah, real professional!
well at least the photo is anyways ...
I hate people pinching pics!
I am tempted to post a comment that i'm pleased that they like my coin and it's still for sale!! ha ha ..... but ho hum ... fly low
I am SOOO glad I don't do Flakeface/Facebook :)
My "anger management" is not good enough to handle the sort of crap that goes on with that site :)
Keep up the good work on this site Mark, Good on ya Mate.:good:
Who is David Hall ?
Quote from: 'runway' pid='75199' dateline='1436015935'Who is David Hall ?
If you have to ask that then I doubt that you have had any of your coins graded by PCGS :ok:
Just google "PCGS David Hall" :)
I have had coins graded by PCGS and I don't know who he is
David Hall
President, Collectors Universe
Expertise: All U.S. coins.
Specialties: Top quality U.S. type coins, gold, silver dollars, commemoratives, and early 20th century coins.
David Hall arguably understands collectibles markets and how they work better than anyone in the world. He became a full-time rare coin dealer in 1972 and was quickly one of the major players. In the 1980s he was the man behind the major market innovations of the decade; guaranteed buy/sell markets, electronic trading, and his piece de resistance, the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS). In 1990 David Hall was named Orange County "Entrepreneur Of The Year" by Inc. Magazine. The February 20, 1996 issue of Numismatic News called him "the man who changed the rare coin market forever." The July, 1999 issue of Coinage Magazine named David Hall one of the top "Numismatists of the Century."
ps there's 38 on the 'board of experts' - only two of them are women
Quoteonly two of them are women
I noticed that. Is it something do do with the culture of PCGS or is it just less women are heavily into coins?
Substantially larger number of experts with Asian sounding names (including one of the women) specialising in Chinese coins.
Not one expert has expertise or specialties mentioning Australia, Canada, New Zealand or United Kingdom. Strange that, as they are all popular countries, even with American collectors.
Hence the abundance of questionable colors for our beautiful Perth bronze coins
Quote from: 'trout' pid='75205' dateline='1436043396'Quote from: 'runway' pid='75199' dateline='1436015935'Who is David Hall ?
If you have to ask that then I doubt that you have had any of your coins graded by PCGS :ok:
Just google "PCGS David Hall" :)
Why would I know him even if I had coins graded by PCGS ?
Just wondering how that works :close_tema:
QuoteWhy would I know him even if I had coins graded by PCGS ?
Just wondering how that works Close_tema
Just like any other service provider you need to use, you should always check out the credentials of them before spending significant sums of money with them :ok:
This is one of the reasons why I won't use the services of APCGS to have my coins encapsulated and graded.:angel:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='75182' dateline='1435974587'There are reasons other than legal that compel me to avoid on-going discussion of APCGS and their methods here. It brings down the tone of the forum and leads to a mob-mentality that we don't need. If you want to see an extreme example of how crazy it can end up (and you have Facebook account) I suggest you look at the link below. The person running the page is anti-PCGS/NGC and sounds more than a little irrational. I'd hate for a thread in this forum to end up sounding the same.
https://www.facebook.com/AustralianCoins
Yeah he is quite passionate. That is just the biggest bag out page ive seen (besides the "adam goodes is a flog" page)
I think he should devote his time to keeping up the population report of the gradings up to date to improve the company rather than just try to bag out another. Or perhaps set a grading standard. I find it hard to believe that a 2015 $2 Anzac coin out of a mint bag could grade MS70?
I think that PCGS is mentioned that much that it he promotes them. PCGS do 1000 things great you never hear of them. they do one thing NQR which they tried to fix and "BANG".
QuoteI find it hard to believe that a 2015 $2 Anzac coin out of a mint bag could grade MS70?
I bought a roll of these NOT a bag and I decided NOT to send even the best one away to PCGS because I personally didn't think it would make even MS64 ON A good day :ok:
There is absolutely NO way a bagged coin will even go close to MS70 IMHO.
I've have a few decimal slabbed graded by PCGS
Coins stored in these look fantastic,their MS grading is very strict by the looks and I'm a big fan of the concept
QuoteCoins stored in these look fantastic,their MS grading is very strict by the looks
This is a "Good Thing" IMHO, It stops all the shonky wannabe grades that "Some" dealers put on a coin and 99.99% of the time with PCGS the coin is "Exactly" what it is NO BS and a money back guarantee to boot.
I think PCGS/NGC is sorting the Men from the Boys as far as getting value for your money when buying a particular coin these days.
A couple of years ago I was seriously "Poo Pooing" this concept and I bagged the crap out of slabbed coins, Not anymore I for one am convinced that this is the fair way to buy and sell coins without the BS from self graders :yahoo:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='75289' dateline='1436179437'QuoteCoins stored in these look fantastic,their MS grading is very strict by the looks
A couple of years ago I was seriously "Poo Pooing" this concept and I bagged the crap out of slabbed coins, Not anymore I for one am convinced that this is the fair way to buy and sell coins without the BS from self graders :yahoo:
I love the honesty from both you.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='75289' dateline='1436179437'QuoteCoins stored in these look fantastic,their MS grading is very strict by the looks
This is a "Good Thing" IMHO, It stops all the shonky wannabe grades that "Some" dealers put on a coin and 99.99% of the time with PCGS the coin is "Exactly" what it is NO BS and a money back guarantee to boot.
I think PCGS/NGC is sorting the Men from the Boys as far as getting value for your money when buying a particular coin these days.
A couple of years ago I was seriously "Poo Pooing" this concept and I bagged the crap out of slabbed coins, Not anymore I for one am convinced that this is the fair way to buy and sell coins without the BS from self graders :yahoo:
Well said mate... I remember those days... :mocking:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='75174' dateline='1435963262'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75132' dateline='1435895448'cheers I wouldn't know that fella if I fell over him
but he is quite infamous in this forum!!
but the good thing about discourse is that we have the conversations and with a bit of research, know that we can cheerfully list our coins as MS this and that without fear
although most people say 'my opinion is' or 'professionally graded'(sometimes with the by whom details i.e. status international auction etc.)
Other than his user name do we actually know if there is someone called "Peter Wallace"?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FLORIN-1960-AU-STRAIT-OUT-OF-MINT-ROLL-/121695911551?
I wonder who this seller is? Same style of photo