I found this Coin in a bulk buy a few years ago just sitting in with the other Silver,no holder or special care of any kind.I showed it to a dealer and he was non committal as to what it is but offered to buy it as a curiosity.
Seeing AJ's 20c in the Brisbane Coin Show Thread i thought i would post some Pics. to see what the Brain's Trust thinks.Sorry about the quality but its the best i can do at this stage,it took me several hours to find the coin so just about had enough for today. The split goes 360 degrees around the rim but is slightly wider in some parts...Any Thoughts?..Thanks.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0002~3.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0001~4.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2879_resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2888resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2894resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2897resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2900resize.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/resize2884.jpg)
WOW
What an amazing piece :yahoo:
Yes it's a beauty alright but I wouldn't use bluetac because of the oils in it. be interesting to see if it eventually splits all the way.
it appears to me to have been cut apart
see the neat seam on the inside of the split - you can see it because you took such great photos
yes cut, splits don't have "burs"
:acute: you been in the shed Basil :angel:
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='73505' dateline='1433056158'it appears to me to have been cut apart
I'd go along with that, due to the raised metal along the edge of the split. But to be sure you'd need to get a photo of the inside. A split will be rough, with the two sides matching. A cut will be very obvious. You'll probably see marks from the blade, like you do in sawn timber.
Got a USB microscope?
That is freaking amazing.
basil can you peer inside and see the split striations? see image here (http://www.australian-threepence.com/blog/2008/10/australian-split-planchet-errors.html)
If it's real it's awesome!
QuoteIf it's real it's awesome!
Especially considering the low mintage of this coin.
I very much doubt that someone would "tamper" with one of these due to their value :ok:
Looks like a "one off " to me Mate :good:
Thanks for the replies,i'll keep it out and try & get some better photos,its hard to get a good look inside,shining the torch just seems to show dark toned surface with no detail but i'll try & get the Microscope on it Tomorrow.
When i first looked at i assumed it had been tampered with for some obscure reason because of the marks on the Obverse it looked like it had been in circulation at some point but they may have come from poor storeage.
Anyway not out to con anybody,just like to know whats happened to it so will probaly have send it off to one of the experts on here to have a look at it if they are willing.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='73504' dateline='1433056120'Yes it's a beauty alright but I wouldn't use bluetac because of the oils in it. be interesting to see if it eventually splits all the way.
Yeah AJ,i washed it afterwards,nightmare trying to get some shots.I had forgotten about the coin until i saw your 20c,light went off,i've got a similar coin to that.
Ah yeah ya gotta love the light Basil :) try taking your pic in sunlight and see if that helps :winkextra:
I didn't mean to be mean Basil :heart:
I was just trying to describe what I could see as I have handled a few of these over the years and have been taught what to keep an eye out for
sometimes as well, a coin to starts to spilt and they are given a helping hand - I think someone here posted about how they assisted a coin to split further or completely
anyways, just wanting to say that I don't mean to burst bubbles
but getting advice from other s in the forum I believe helps us to make more informed calls on our coins esp. the errors!!
PP and Mark are pretty damned good with the errors and their advice is up there with the best in Australian numismatics (IMO)
cheers rob
addit
I actually believe that they are the best .... !!!!
No worries,just after after some comments,i'm not sure myself.It stumped a dealer a few years back and also his mate who had a stall nearby,the first ? they ask is if its been tampered with is why,it would have to be pro. done by a Jeweller or Watchmaker on a lathe you would think but the gap is not uniform around the rim and it sits higher in one place.
I'll post some better Pics. Tomorrow or Wed.
Oh look at RG suckin up :mocking: so what do you want sweetheart :)
Pay them no mind Basil, tall poppy syndrome mate :friends: I get it all the time because I'm so bloody good, well that's what I have to tell myself :D but am very interested to see a few more pic's :winkextra:
If someone was going to deliberately split a Crown you would think they would use a 1937 coin not the scarcer 1938 coin and I can't see why anyone would want to do this anyway:ok:
See if you can use a usb gizmo to take some images inside the split.
I'm hoping this is genuine :yahoo:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='73609' dateline='1433195016'See if you can use a usb gizmo to take some images inside the split.
I'm hoping this is genuine :yahoo:
Me too.
Gotta love a good mystery.!!:scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='73607' dateline='1433194474'Oh look at RG suckin up :mocking: so what do you want sweetheart :)
Pay them no mind Basil, tall poppy syndrome mate :friends: I get it all the time because I'm so bloody good, well that's what I have to tell myself :D but am very interested to see a few more pic's :winkextra:
well excuse me
I am not after anything, I have enough of everything for this life of mine
just trying to explain that I was only being straight forward in my numismatic opinion as I feel sometimes that people's opinions in general dialogue sometimes get a tad hammered. I have collected varieties and errors for a long time and have some insight into the game
but my opinion doesn't mean I am right!! usually I am not but at least I give it a go and like I said I have had had a few split planchets on a whole coins over the years & all were jaggered on the inside of the split
this one is very even and appears to have some inside seam in the split which looks to me like metal that has been heated say, if it has been cut. it could very well have started to split and then the previous owner has helped it along
like PP asked - if the inside of the split has the rough striations then it is more likely to have been a natural split
remembering this coin is 92.5% silver - not cupro nickel or copper/bronze mix
people graffiti 1930 pennies & 1938 crowns so value often has zip to do with the buggaring of a coin for fun
:blush2: I'm sorry RG I was just stirrin mate :friends: and your opinion is greatly valued so please don't let me being silly put you off :ok:
ta
I am home sick so maybe I have been a bit under the weather and bit more sensitive (then usual ha ha)
I must admit that I do pride myself in not soliciting free-bees in this forum so yes, took offence xxx
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='73634' dateline='1433202928':blush2: I'm sorry RG I was just stirrin mate :friends: and your opinion is greatly valued so please don't let me being silly put you off :ok:
I'm upset too AJ,(LOL),accusing me of working on coins in my shed when you know all my manipulation,date changing,clips etc of coins are done in a sterile,pet free,smoke free and occcassionly beer free room of my house.:yahoo:
I have to drive my Brother to see the eye Doc. shortly so if i'm back in time will post more Pics. this afternoon otherwise Tomorrow.
Thanks for all the interest,i should have prepared all this Info before i originally posted but was in a bit of a rush.
your photos are great Basil
and like they say a picture paints a thousand words
ps they also say
the more beer - the better the errors production!! h aha
The very existence of Beer is proof that God really Loves us :angel::yahoo:
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='73633' dateline='1433202685'if the inside of the split has the rough striations then it is more likely to have been a natural split
Guaranteed to be. That can't be faked.
We're all good RG and hope you feel better soon :give_heart:
:laugh2: your a shocker Basil, love it mate :friends:
gee it's hard trying to get a pic in the crack so this will have to do sorry
(http://i60.tinypic.com/24or0hl.jpg)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='73651' dateline='1433207329'gee it's hard trying to get a pic in the crack so this will have to do sorry
Didn't you know life wasn't meant to be easy, mate? :angel:
Nice pic of a nice coin. Tell me though... those marks on the edge... don't they look like someone tried to give it a helping hand? Not that it matters, but still.. ;)
Yeah but no one said it was meant to be this bloody hard either :angel:
Yes and no as the marks don't line up when looking at the rim, there's like at least two little read lines between the marks if you were to squish it back together, the pic is like an optical illusion but yes very deceiving :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='73657' dateline='1433210703'.... the pic is like an optical illusion ......
:shok:
:biggrin:
A few Scope Shots..more to come.Having trouble getting clean shots,seems to be a bits of muck stuck inside including what looks like a dead spider or ant,i wish people would store Coins properly..Some shots seem to have disappeared in the downloading process?.
(http://www.[img]http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope34.jpg)australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope35.jpg[/img]
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope33.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope32.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope28.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope27.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope24.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope22.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope20.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope10.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope11.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope12.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope15.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope16.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope20.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope35.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope4.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope6.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope7.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope8.jpg)
This is the best one i could get of the innards of the Coin..Weird one.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/scope2.jpg)
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='73666' dateline='1433218739'A few Scope Shots..more to come.Having trouble getting clean shots,seems to be a bits of muck stuck inside.Some shots have disappeared in the downloading process?.
My there's a lot of detritus in there... must've spent a long time in various pockets.
So, the insides look legit enough, but I have a couple of concerns still...
Near as I can tell, every shot shows internal marks tangential to the rim at that point. Which is suspicious. The natural striations should all be more or less parallel, and therefore angled differently from different viewpoints. These look a lot like saw marks.
Additionally, I can't think of a natural explanation for that raised edge all the way around. If you look at AJ's, which clearly shows some signs of impact damage, its really minor, and patchy. This isn't.
Have you got images of the ends of the split? They should taper to a V-shaped crack. If they don't, that's again a sign of tampering. You may also find slight deformation of the still-attached part of the coin.
It'd be nice if you could clean it up inside... hose it out with high-pressure water maybe? Or an Acetone bath?
Based on what I've seen so far, my thinking is that someone found this, either slightly split or maybe just sounding hollow, and gave it a helping hand. I've got a hollow 10ยข myself that I've been tempted to butcher, though I've only gone so far as 'accidentally' dropping it on a tiled floor a few times. :angel:
I've taken the liberty of speaking to the Melbourne Museum about this on your behalf. They don't currently have a numismatic curator, but requested the pics to show some staff who may be able to assist. Certainly they do have the equipment to get to the bottom of this, hopefully they've got the right person to drive it too. ;)
Thanks Fulvio,its very iffy but i'm still not sure.This is what caused me to loose interest in it many moons ago,it comes in about 2 grams under in weight so there is metal missing,also its about the same flat height as a normal Crown although one side is slightly higher you would think it should be noticeably higher in certain areas.
Anyway when all avenues & opinions are exhausted i'll try & clean out all the muck inside.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Resized_two_coins.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/resize_weight_scales.jpg)
It's not looking so good at the moment Baz
Here is our 10c clam pictured in last months CAB magazine for comparison.
(http://www.australian-threepence.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/image-3-900x343.jpg)
Maybe there was an air pocket in the metal causing it to be underweight which is why it split apart?
Yeah,it doesn't seem to have that type of markings but down the track i'll try and clean all the muck out as Fulvio suggests.The original dealer i showed it to picked up the gap is not symmetrical,if it was spinning in a lathe the cut should be even all the way around the circumference. Interesting Coin that i had all but forgotten about.
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='73674' dateline='1433225526'Here is our 10c clam pictured in last months CAB magazine for comparison.
Absolutely gorgeous, coin and photo. Clearly shows what I was talking about too.
Basil, I wouldn't stress about the weight too much, as PP says, it might have been born that way. The thickness however is another thing. If there's a wedge of metal missing, its not looking good.
Can we see the side that's still joined? How's the thickness compare there?
try and look into the split and see if it's a cut like a wedge like a V I'd say it's tearing but if it's like a U I'd say it's been cut. If it's a V how can you get a blade with such a fine angle :winkextra:
That 10 cent would look really good with my 20 PP :)
it is fascinating!
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='73695' dateline='1433234218'try and look into the split and see if it's a cut like a wedge like a V I'd say it's tearing but if it's like a U I'd say it's been cut. If it's a V how can you get a blade with such a fine angle :winkextra:
That 10 cent would look really good with my 20 PP :)
A jewellers diamond saw can make a surgical quality cut into metal :angel:
A couple of the photos appear to show solid metal at the base of the cut which could only be from cutting of some sort.
Other parts look consistent with planchet flaw so I agree it iprobably started as a genuine flaw that has been exaggerated by intervention which is a shame.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='73681' dateline='1433229652'Can we see the side that's still joined? How's the thickness compare there?
No side joined Fulvio,its a gap around the whole coin joined in the center,not the clam type split.The center doesn't seem to be uniform however,seems off set but will know more when i follow your advice & clean all the muck out.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='73712' dateline='1433243800'its a gap around the whole coin joined in the center
Whaaaaaatttt???
Ok, lets think for a second about how these things happen.
A cold shut, which basically these flaws all are, occurs when two layers of metal fail to fuse properly, because one layer is too cold. The flaw may run through the roll at an angle, which gives us surface delaminations, or it may run through the middle parallel to the surfaces.
We've all seen pieces fall out of coins.. your classic cold shut that leaves a hole. And we've seen split planchets, or at least pictures thereof, where the sheet separated, partly or fully.
What I don't think anyone has seen, or at least I've never heard of any reports, is a donut with solid metal in the middle. Even if such a thing were possible, and I'm not saying its not, it would be a really freakish coincidence to have the planchet cut right at that spot.
That, coupled with those lines that aren't parallel, really screams "tampered" to me. The definitive proof, one way or another, lies at the end of the split, as AJ said, with a cut having a U or square bottom, whereas a natural split would decrease to nothing, like a crack in a wall does.
The hard part will be seeing in there. :(
Yeah Fulvio,its not the standard run of the mill clam type thing,the original photos show the entire rim of the coin,the gap goes around the whole circumference,whats wierd is its not an even cut(or break) its an uneven line which would be near impossible to cut without the cutting disc or coin being adjusted and this would leave a 'join' Thats what the original Dealer & his mate that i showed the coin to were on about,they didn't know what caused it.
After seeing AJ's coin i thought someone on here may know what it is or what caused it and i spent a couple of hours on Sunday trying to find it amongst all my rubbish,glad i did,i'll follow your advice and try & clean all the gunk out and see whats in there.
Thanks for all the replies from everybody so far.
Yeah sorry we can't come up with a decent answer for ya yet Basil, but what a great mystery scooby :)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/28k7t6b.jpg)
A great mornings read, thanks for sharing Basil.! Comprehensive and helpful replies from the forum members.!:good:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='73703' dateline='1433237178'A jewellers diamond saw can make a surgical quality cut into metal :angel:
Yeah, and from the point of view of a novice but looking at this logically, if the planchet was originally the same thickness as all other 1938 Crown planchets, when the two halves are pressed together the split planchet should be of a normal thickness. Judging from the pic there's no way it wouldn't be thinner.