I attend coin shows and meetings regularly with my young kids. It is fun to do and they get a kick out of seeing all the old historic items on show plus they are good listeners and as anyone who has attended a show will know there are plenty of people willing to talk your ear off about numismatics/history if your wiling to listen. However the one thing that annoys me is the way that people point at the children and say "that's the future of coin collecting". Now a general way to describe these people is old or at least 30-40 years older than me and that is what I have a problem with. This generation has no problem acknowledging that the torch of collecting needs to be passed on if numismatics are to survive but they are ignorant to the fact that it is in fact my generation that is the future of coin collecting.
Let me explain, I am currently in communication with a prominent active member of ANDA who , like many of his peers, is rubbishing the use of PCGS and their grading system. Now my generation is championing the cause as this form of collecting suits our lifestyle and needs. It doesn't require us to become experts in grading all types of coins but rather we only need to know how to read a slab and know what it is we are looking for. Then we can choose a coin that we like and leave the more finite grading issues up to an independent 3rd party we trust. Now this doesn't mean that we wont evolve into raw coin hunting purist but it is an essential stepping stone to get us involved and enjoying collecting.
The old guard doesn't like this, they believe that to be true numismatist we must dedicate years of our life studying coins under the guidance of a learned professional who we are supposed to trust without question. This is the old way of collecting before the world wide web and global communication. The old way had people NEEDING coin dealers to tell them what they had and what they should buy. If you wanted to invest in coins you had to approach a learned coin dealer who would tell you what to buy and the same would apply if you needed to sell things. Mind you this is the same generation that brought you PVC infected storage medium, conservation of coins by "whizzing" and felt display trays to slowly reduce the grade of your coin over time so they should have no problem acknowledging they have not always acted in the best interest of numismatics.
My generation is overseeing the transition to open source sharing of numismatic history on a global scale. With the help and guidance of the limited forward thinking old guard (many on this site!) who acknowledge the need to go online and share their numismatic experience online a digital community is developing. This community will grow as it is easy to access and become involved in so a small interest in coins can develop into a full blown hobby(or obsession in some cases).
My children will grow into their teens and the interest they have in coins will be displaced by the hormones that force their eyes elsewhere and it will be many years before they begin to settle, put some roots down and start to look for a hobby to fill their time. If my generation doesn't establish a thriving online community by then that is inclusive and easy to access then coin collecting will die at the same time the old guard start to (yes that is right most have only 20-30 years left tops). Dealers need to evolve to an online presence and start to open share that "secret squirrel " knowledge that they have held tight to their chest for so long because if they don't then it will die with them and the world will be less for not having recorded it. I note that sites such as Purple Penny, Stirling currency, Numisbid and Drake Stirling not only seek to sell their wares but also promote and share numismatics with their world. Their sites have depth, are easy to explore and are enjoyable to access regularly.
This is the future of numismatics so if you ever see someone point at a child at an event and say "that is the future of numismatics" look around, find a computer, tablet or even iphone point at it and correct them.
Well said Serial and it is interesting to note that with the rise of the internet there are many collectors like myself who wouldn't be collecting at all without the online medium due to the fact that we live in remote areas and simply dont have access to the coin shows or bricks and mortar stores in the big cities so to me you are right to say that the internet is driving our hobby and it is the future of coin collecting
I would add that this is not just a numismatic problem.
I'm involved in a number of diverse communities and clubs, and every one of them is going through the exact same thing. Most, including the high-tech ones, are totally failing to change their mindset, and will certainly die out once we all drop off the perch.
I'm not really concerned about the interests or the organisations though, TBH. I'm more worried about the lack of "face time" if all the physical points of contact disappear. Sure, voids will be filled, but the tendency in recent years has been for commercial operations with hefty price tags to replace lost social interactions.
Picture a future world where your only options are online or increasingly expensive shows. :(
https://youtu.be/qN5zw04WxCc
well my comment is that just because people are older doesn't mean that they are redundant dinosaurs
Serial, I have often seen you post threads asking for the wisdom of the elders to your own advantage
it's ok for that (above)
but then you say how we older collectors are 'old', goanna die off and that between now and our death we are also becoming lost in the progress of the 'future' i.e. PCGS and the internet (?) . The PCGS guys don't exactly look like spring chickens to me, nor is it a contemporary service.
"In 1985, a small group of the nation's leading coin experts recognized that for the rare coin industry to realize its potential, some serious problems needed to be addressed." Gee how long ago was 1985? does the age of this service make it redundant? I am not convinced that PCGS is a matter for only your generation. It has been around for 30 years.
Please show respect for experience that comes with age. No body asks to grow old but those with some inner wisdom will recognise that age can bring experience, wisdom and knowledge that only time enables. If I want to know about growing vegetables - I seek out an old gardener not some young thing with an internet blog who wears the right brand of clothing while munching on their vegan mung bean lunch.
I think that you have a skewed perspective and are simply lumping a few of the old boys of coin dealerships (or those who aren't on board for paying exorbitant prices for PCGS slabbed coins) into the one basket and then using that to insult members here. It is somewhat rhetorical and almost predictable.
I do believe that you have learnt a lot of coming to this forum which is scarcely ever mentioned. I have appreciated your posts/threads but at times I find the arrogance downright a pain in the arse. It is a coin community for the benefit of all, not just some.
Love this type of thread, provocative comments, loaded responses. I reckon it's all about evolution, new tools, products, methods, ideas etc. No matter what the subject or the circumstances, there will always be some resistance to change, but as with any of mans endeavors, what we have today is really the result of past as well as current input.
No doubt those that are internet and tech savvy will drive the hobby into the future, but at the risk of being seen to be knocking progress, I don't think it's wise to be placing blind faith in anyone or any organisation. Some of the prices paid in recent times for later dated coppers in plastic is in my opinion simply ridiculous. Unless there's something I'm totally unaware of, IMO I would think there are plenty of raw later dated predecimals still available with colour and condition at a fraction of the price.
Hey Folks, This is getting interesting !
I do hear what Serial is trying to say here & I do agree technology will pay a huge part in coin collecting in the future... I say this due to two reasons,
1. Younger generation (x, y and the next few) and the busy / time poor Baby boomers and the rest depend on the net to do their coin research and purchases
2. Next generation doesn't necessarily do things the hard way even they have time available ( ie why drive 50 kms when i can buy the same coin online ? Why buy one book when they can read 100 articles on the same topic online ? )
I am not saying the above mentioned is the right attitude, however thats how the wold revolves. .. When is the last time you heard worlds largest retailer not having any inventory to their name... Alibaba / Ali express ???
With the internet demand get higher( more people - global market), supply stay the same.. hence prices go higher. ... ie Numisbid ... I hardly go to physical auctions, however I buy all most all my coins online....
Experience is handy to have.... wisdom is invaluable ..... with wisdom comes the future vision... if we do not move withthe time, coin collecting may became a thing in the past...
Disclaimer - Respect to all the elders ... Please take it easy... ( no pun intended ) ...
sorry if you took offense Robbie girl but it is not my intention to bag older collectors simply because they are old, there are many who have chosen to use new media devices to engage with the next generation and in doing so they have my respect. My issue is with the older collectors who seem to be unwilling to engage with the next generation and instead expect people to slavishly follow the old ways, this includes the one thing that irks me a lot and I have heard others refer to and that is "secret squirrel business" eg the hoard of knowledge for personal gain.
Society in general is going through a cultural revolution which in includes the breaking down of international communication boundaries and open source sharing of information that is free for all to share. Standards are starting to arise that allow people to safely quantify the quality of coins held by complete strangers rather than being restricted to that which you can hold or those whom you know personally. Markets are global rather than local and people can share their knowledge on forums, blogs and websites with strangers who may be inspired to learn more themselves to share.
I myself try to restrict the advice I give to where I think I add value and given how short a time I have been collecting there is not much I can add when compared to the likes of emu, markn, stevo, walter etc. But I assure you what I learn here, I share with as many people as I can as that is the only way coin collecting will survive in the future.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='69557' dateline='1427103537'https://youtu.be/qN5zw04WxCc
well my comment is that just because people are older doesn't mean that they are redundant dinosaurs
Well said young Girl. :heart:
I can only dream of being a young Dinosaur,
The Triassic rules. :yahoo:
(No need to Google, it's the Geological Time before the Dinosaur)
good dialogue
on one hand the internet and internet auctions based on photographs is deemed the be all end all ... yippie ... then drakesterling comes in on the pcgs grading thread and says óh well you can't grade a coin properly from photographs'
the contradiction is something of a dichotomy - for internet sales we rely on photographs plus our combined photographic grading wisdom, that again is something of an art and most of us who rely on the internet will have or be developing that skill.
yes we are in the 'gotta have it right now and gotta have/be the best' age for sure but I reckon that started in the 1960's way before the internet came along. We are products of societal and global changes, not quite as individual as we think we are.
for over a decade I have seen guys at auctions with the lap top looking up coins as they bid - checking sales, values, rarity etc - it is certainly not new. maybe the iphone and handheld device is 'new' but the technology and technique to my thinking isn't.
Let's all modernise, of course I would barely disagree because 1. I have local coin shop that I only go to now for auctions 2. I go to the local coin fair about 8 times a year - other wise all my purchases are off the net and that has been for many years now but most importantly for myself number 3. I have a fantastic numismatic mentor who I trust 100% for teaching me how to grade, how to buy wise and sell wise. without him I probably wouldn't even still be collecting. Yes, he is a lot older and when I asked him to mentor me (several years ago), he said sure, us older numismatists are starting to die off. He has been patient, not snobby and yes, has many a story to tell which if listened to properly is living numismatic history which many collectors get right into.
I have shown him my (handful mind you) coins before and after slabbing and he has really soaked up the opportunity to compare his grades, my grades and the PCCGS final grade. He is willing to learn as well, age has not been a barrier. I like knowing that when he does depart to the other side that I can rely on myself to source great coins as he will have taught me well.
But timing needs to be right in business - we have a friend who years ago bought a smoothie franchise boost juice that flopped at the time - now those same franchises are highly successful - same as PCGS - my dealer said that they tried to sell pcgs & ngc coins for a couple of years - no sales- ripped the same coins out of the slabs and bingo - next couple of shows the same coins sold.
There is an enormous range of collectors out there which makes the people in the hobby interesting(well at times!! ha ha) and definitely not one homogenous group - some will want to buy slabbed, others like me will buy junk lots and have fun for months sorting them, others may be happy with change coin collecting, others collect varieties or rarities and then others buy mint products that are clean, beautifully presented and swiftly posted to them. Some will specialise in deceased estates and get themselves the bargain of the century. Others like to be in clubs and have the experience of human socialising and friendship and that connection that comes with being in a social community. Others like us will also be in internet social forums that are great modes for interpersonal interaction and friendship building. Viva la coin collecting! - the hobby will never die it has been going for thousands of years!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='69669' dateline='1427338983'the hobby will never die it has been going for thousands of years!
Ah, but it will certainly change. Perhaps unrecognisably.
Consider this hypothetical:
You're on the Starship Enterprise, and you have a replicator. You can duplicate absolutely anything perfectly down to the last atom. Its good enough to provide you every food and drink your little heart desires, as well as all the daily objects you need or want. Additionally, you have the HoloDecks, which can replicate any time or place you may want to visit.
What need or desire would you have for manufactured goods in such a scenario?
We're a lot closer to that fictional world than most realise. Already we can duplicate the written word, and what its been traditionally written on, almost perfectly. We can duplicate digital documents, sounds, pictures and video perfectly. Much of the content of those items is produced entirely in cyberspace, with no physical substance in the first place. We can print physical objects which are impossible to create by other means, and the technology will only improve, perhaps down to the atomic level.
Meanwhile, money is becoming increasingly digital. Not only cryptocurrencies, but fiat as well, is mostly stored and transacted in cyberspace. And with DIY capability to produce physical coins equal to or superior to 'real' coinage, especially from bygone times, fakes are becoming more problematic by the day.
(http://media.coindesk.com/2014/09/3d-printed-coin.jpg)
http://www.coindesk.com/10-physical-bitcoins-good-bad-ugly/
How long do you think this hobby of ours has left, when we will not only be unable to trust the validity of what we hold in our hands, but will also be able to construct, play with and enjoy virtual or even physical collections we can only dream about owning now?
Reality, after all, is all in the eye of the beholder.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='69684' dateline='1427350387'but will also be able to construct, play with and enjoy virtual or even physical collections we can only dream about owning now?
Well to be honest with you I was experimenting a bit with three dimensional coin images by stacking photos (so you can turn a coin with your mouse to view the coin from any angle including the rims.) It is possible to do but it is far to graphics heavy for current technology (excluding graphical computers) and I don't see it becoming widely used for another couple of decades.
those 3d printers are something as well
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='69688' dateline='1427351583'it is far to graphics heavy for current technology (excluding graphical computers) and I don't see it becoming widely used for another couple of decades.
That's because that's not the way to do it. The right way is to model them the same way any other 3D rendering is done. Sure, its still intensive, but nowhere near as much as manipulating stacked images.
Look at what they're doing with computer games now. The data for quite large worlds is relatively small, and the level of detail is fantastic, and improving constantly. Sooner or later someone will decide to model a small object, like a coin, in enough detail that it will rival the real thing. Just a matter of time...
I see your point serial, I believe most of the negativity about adopting new technologies roots from dealers, not collectors.
A lot of the new technologies that came to the market have been rubbished by dealers as dealers are the ones who stand to lose from them.
eBay is probably the most well known example. With a bit of caution, eBay can be a good source of quality coins. Dealers attack it because it empowers collectors, both through the availability of information (reducing dealers' negotiating capacity) and providing a low-margin market for collectors to directly trade with each other ("stealing" sales from dealers).
Hi, I think turn off is the vast range of fake/replica/reproduction or whatever purists know such coins as. We have inadvetently purchased coins that to the inexperienced (us) appear to be legitimate but aren't. We now avoid ebay etc. for this reason. perhaps there is a need for competent graders who deal in the top end as it would be reasonable to expect more fake/replica/reproduction coins to find their way into that market. regards ErikP
I can appreciate that but dealers should be educating collectors on picking problem coins/fake coins/mis-attributed proofs/etc rather than just telling them they should only buy from them. Dealers should be looking at the hobby in the long term, you tell a collector to only buy from you and you have a client for a month, you teach him about the hobby and you'll have made a collector for a lifetime.
I think this forum is one of the best tools around and especially when you can put up a link to places like ebay and 9 out of 10 times you'll get an honest opinion and told if a coin is fake and some members will even inform the seller and also ebay so to me that means a lot because even though I have learnt a hell of a lot I still have a very long way to go and need all the help I can get :angel:
If a seller is good and honest to me I appreciate it and will keep using them so they might only be small sales at times but a sale is a sale and every little bit helps :)
I turned 60 last year and i suppose i would be considered as "Old Guard" .
Yet i have never been to a coin shop and have only attended one coin show.
Without the internet i wouldn't have a collection due to where i live and that i normally spend 8 months of the year at remote minesites.
I think that most dealers worth their salt have an online presence now and most of these have heaps of educational information on their sites.
As for collectors not embracing new concepts and tech I doubt that this is the case regardless of their age.
Over the last few years it has become easier to get good coins and with the use of PCGS/NGC
The grade and authenticity is pretty much guaranteed.
Like Walter said I think it is the dealers resisting change NOT collectors whatever their age is :)
Yeah I hear ya trout and you have done so much for me in the way of my collecting and also personally and I thank you so very much from the bottom of my pea size :give_heart: for your support and being my mate :friends:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='69861' dateline='1427763813'I turned 60 last year and i suppose i would be considered as "Old Guard" .
Yet i have never been to a coin shop and have only attended one coin show.
Without the internet i wouldn't have a collection due to where i live and that i normally spend 8 months of the year at remote minesites.
I think that most dealers worth their salt have an online presence now and most of these have heaps of educational information on their sites.
As for collectors not embracing new concepts and tech I doubt that this is the case regardless of their age.
Over the last few years it has become easier to get good coins and with the use of PCGS/NGC
The grade and authenticity is pretty much guaranteed.
Like Walter said I think it is the dealers resisting change NOT collectors whatever their age is :)
60 is the new 40 trout :)
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='69872' dateline='1427776575'60 is the new 40 trout :)
I thought 50 was the new 40
OK, so tell me what 65 is.
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='69873' dateline='1427776968'Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='69872' dateline='1427776575'60 is the new 40 trout :)
I thought 50 was the new 40
Sorry my mistake Eric. 50 is the new 35
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='69875' dateline='1427777266'OK, so tell me what 65 is.
Too easy Jeff ....
65 is the new '22' ........ pronounced tutu for those that are not familiar ......
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='69875' dateline='1427777266'OK, so tell me what 65 is.
5 years off 40, because I'm 6 years off 70 :yahoo:
Don't worry Auto, we'll still need and feed ya!
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='69879' dateline='1427778620'Don't worry Auto, we'll still need and feed ya!
he he, had a top and bottom this morning, really needed a feed today:grin:
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='69875' dateline='1427777266'OK, so tell me what 65 is.
SPRIGHTLY mate :angel:
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='69872' dateline='1427776575'Quote from: 'trout' pid='69861' dateline='1427763813'I turned 60 last year and i suppose i would be considered as "Old Guard" .
Yet i have never been to a coin shop and have only attended one coin show.
Without the internet i wouldn't have a collection due to where i live and that i normally spend 8 months of the year at remote minesites.
I think that most dealers worth their salt have an online presence now and most of these have heaps of educational information on their sites.
As for collectors not embracing new concepts and tech I doubt that this is the case regardless of their age.
Over the last few years it has become easier to get good coins and with the use of PCGS/NGC
The grade and authenticity is pretty much guaranteed.
Like Walter said I think it is the dealers resisting change NOT collectors whatever their age is :)
60 is the new 40 trout :)
I have quite a way to go at 19 then :P
P.s nice Adelaide Pound you uploaded, quite the coin to be honest
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='69898' dateline='1427799582'I have quite a way to go at 19 then :P
Onya OMF, great to see. Wish I had spent just a little of my time involved with coin collecting when I was your age. My Father tried his best to instill some interest :dead_horse: so how much did I spend on that old smashed up FJ Holden :shock: I know you could pick up a 1930 penny for around $300 back then :cray:
Ooo an FJ or a 30 penny now that's a hard choice and both pretty rare and depending on condition what one would be worth more but I suppose you can't drive a coin and like they say, ya can't put an old head on young shoulders :winkextra:
No you can not AJ, my Dad tried but you know how it is, we know better. I reckon there was a better chance of me still having the 30 penny today though, as opposed to the FJ which is long gone but you never know what crops up in between. Hmmm...that's right, I got married. Not a bad thing mind you, but the 30 penny would be just a memory as well me thinks, but spent on a good cause.
Whenever any young person toys with a frivolous idea that requires spending lots on lots of fun, if they put a quarter of that amount away (coins, shares, land or anything at all worthwhile) and revised their fun aspirations downwards but still spent the other three quarters on their fun, that would be better than any superanuation fund. It's just convincing them to do it, hmmmm...that's right, I couldn't be told either. :)
Yes I wish I had a lot of my old toys and things because some are worth a small fortune now but things get lost and stolen over time and some got played with to death..now the old matchbox cars still in original packets are worth heaps but I had fun playing with them at the time :)