Hey everyone
Just browsing a number of the auction house regulars and found that IAG is to auction the Benchmark collection on the 19th January next year. For those who haven't heard of the Benchmark collection on this forum it is a complete set of quality pre-decimal coins graded by NGC with many varieties acknowledged including the English obverse 1930 Penny in XF45 and a 1916 Penny Mule in aUNC-Details. The auction also highlights the finest known 1921/2 overdate threepence, a 1923 halfpenny in MS and a 1934-5 Centenary Florin in MS65 with a complete strike just to name a few.
The coins are absolutely beautiful and with the provenance of the Benchmark collection should sell exceptionally strongly.
So what do you all think about the sale, individual lots etc? I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts on it.
The 23 halfpenny is a shocker.
The 1919 double penny dot is not a double dot.
Overall its a fabulous collection.
My guess it that prices will be very strong.
Most will be sent to PCGS I think.
Comments are very interesting.
Such as the K.G pennies struck in Melbourne.
Lack of research has always been an issue in Aussie Numimatics.
Everyone just believes what the catalogues and big dealers say.
woow... the George V florins!
The part about the highlights was taken from their statement about the collection on their website. I agree a lot will be sent to PCGS because even a cross over at the same grade for a few would make them quite a bit more valuable. However it is a fabulous collection particularly with quite a number of beautifully toned coins in the silvers section and it's sale should boost PCGS and NGC immensely.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='62705' dateline='1416565970'it's sale should boost PCGS and NGC immensely.
Looking forward to that
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='62705' dateline='1416565970'The part about the highlights was taken from their statement about the collection on their website. I agree a lot will be sent to PCGS because even a cross over at the same grade for a few would make them quite a bit more valuable. However it is a fabulous collection particularly with quite a number of beautifully toned coins in the silvers section and it's sale should boost PCGS and NGC immensely.
Some of the silvers have been in dansco supreme albums.
And the sulphur has toned the coins black and blue around the rims.
Some like it but I think its awful.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='62709' dateline='1416571341'Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='62705' dateline='1416565970'The part about the highlights was taken from their statement about the collection on their website. I agree a lot will be sent to PCGS because even a cross over at the same grade for a few would make them quite a bit more valuable. However it is a fabulous collection particularly with quite a number of beautifully toned coins in the silvers section and it's sale should boost PCGS and NGC immensely.
Some of the silvers have been in dansco supreme albums.
And the sulphur has toned the coins black and blue around the rims.
Some like it but I think its awful.
My comment is directed primarily from the earlier shillings particularly the 1921* and they don't look like they have been stored like that (the other silvers I haven't studied in detail yet.) I have seen a fair share of Dansco toning topics particularly on some American coin forums and it is generally the more brilliant colours which come out such as the red and blues hues of tone on silvers. Personally I think a number of them have been stored in coin cabinets or something along those lines as a number have cabinet wear.
I think there was a thread or part thereof about this collection some time back. It is great to see a whole a aussie pre Dec collection in that set up. Not so sure about the cross over increase in value. I think the general gist was that most will downgrade considerably. Or I might be thinking of the wrong set!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='62713' dateline='1416573888'I think there was a thread or part thereof about this collection some time back. It is great to see a whole a aussie pre Dec collection in that set up. Not so sure about the cross over increase in value. I think the general gist was that most will downgrade considerably. Or I might be thinking of the wrong set!
http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=2440&highlight=benchmark
Will be interesting to see what prices the coins achieve. Some very nice coins, however, some are up to 2-3 points over graded with a couple which would not get graded at PCGS. The florin set in particular looks like a super collection. I will put in a bid or two for sure (assuming the estimates are not completely crazy).
Where is this collection held at the present?
If it is an Australian collection, rather than break it up why can't a multi millionaire buy the collection as a whole and display it somewhere.
This happened to that other collection that was on display at the RAM many moons ago.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='62744' dateline='1416641253'Where is this collection held at the present?
If it is an Australian collection, rather than break it up why can't a multi millionaire buy the collection as a whole and display it somewhere.
This happened to that other collection that was on display at the RAM many moons ago.
Why doesn't RAM just buy it, They are making an absolute killing of us poor suckers lately :angel:
Wouldn't it have been a masterstroke if Strand Coins had displayed it at the RAM just prior to the auction? I bet there would be a bidding frenzy like anything just from the publicity.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='62745' dateline='1416644317'Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='62744' dateline='1416641253'Where is this collection held at the present?
If it is an Australian collection, rather than break it up why can't a multi millionaire buy the collection as a whole and display it somewhere.
This happened to that other collection that was on display at the RAM many moons ago.
Why doesn't RAM just buy it, They are making an absolute killing of us poor suckers lately :angel:
The RAM don't need to
the National collection is far superior to this lot
It just isn't all out on display
and fortuitously I would doubt that the RAM would have their beautiful coins in those horrid cases
although, the slabbing is perfect for cataloguing and storing
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='62760' dateline='1416702062'The RAM don't need to
the National collection is far superior to this lot
Are you sure about that RG. The Benchmark collection does include some of our most important coins, for example, 1920 Penny London obverse, both dot below and dot above bottom scroll, 1921 Penny London Obverse, 1924, 1927 and 1931 Penny Indian obverses just to name a few. Incredibly, none of these coins are included in any of the primary listings of McDonalds, Renniks or Blue Sheet, but hats off to the RAM if they have shown the foresight to include them in the National Collection. :angel:
well the coins had to come from an Australian mint
so it is not a stupid idea for a national mint collection to have samples of these coins
maybe I am wrong - remember there is walk in vault that contains the collection
although over the years I think a heck of a lot of coins were sold by walk away prices and consequently have ended up in mysteriously some private collections .... isn't that the big drama with the 1930 proof penny
I have spoken to Tony Bryne a number of times who was the former National Numismatist and he said the RAM would commonly swap duplicates of certain dates for dates it didn't have or swap for superior coins. But generally the RAM doesn't actively buy but it does trade though only for coins of absolutely massive rarity from what I have heard.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='62820' dateline='1416814795'I have spoken to Tony Bryne a number of times who was the former National Numismatist and he said the RAM would commonly swap duplicates of certain dates for dates it didn't have or swap for superior coins. But generally the RAM doesn't actively buy but it does trade though only for coins of absolutely massive rarity from what I have heard.
I'm waiting for the day the government decides to balance the budget and sells off lots of deadwood and unproductive assets OR decides that assets such as RAM need to pay higher dividends to the gov't coffers.
On that day the RAM might decide to do what was done a few years ago with the nations gold coin collection and auction it off.
With talk of flogging off the RAM itself that day may be sooner than later.
So what are the massive rarities in the collection?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='62794' dateline='1416781192'- remember there is walk in vault that contains the collection
That's interesting, so an organised tour would allow one to view these? On the few occasions I've visited the RAM, I thought the display cases up on the viewing platform
were the extent of it. :blush:
Also interesting to read what oh my florin said. With regard to at least one of the coins I mentioned previously (1920 penny London obv. dot over bottom scroll), one must see the irony of any circumstance that would see the RAM actively seeking a coin they have no record of minting. But good on em.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='62850' dateline='1416827812'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='62794' dateline='1416781192'- remember there is walk in vault that contains the collection
That's interesting, so an organised tour would allow one to view these? On the few occasions I've visited the RAM, I thought the display cases up on the viewing platform
were the extent of it. :blush:
Also interesting to read what oh my florin said. With regard to at least one of the coins I mentioned previously (1920 penny London obv. dot over bottom scroll), one must see the irony of any circumstance that would see the RAM actively seeking a coin they have no record of minting. But good on em.
I'm looking forward to see how the Benchmark Dot Above sells for. It has a sales history as a raw coin and now it will be the first slabbed example to sell.
Mind you if the RAM does add this coin to their collection they won't have the best one.:whistle2: (and it aint for sale)
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='62845' dateline='1416826354'Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='62820' dateline='1416814795'I have spoken to Tony Bryne a number of times who was the former National Numismatist and he said the RAM would commonly swap duplicates of certain dates for dates it didn't have or swap for superior coins. But generally the RAM doesn't actively buy but it does trade though only for coins of absolutely massive rarity from what I have heard.
I'm waiting for the day the government decides to balance the budget and sells off lots of deadwood and unproductive assets OR decides that assets such as RAM need to pay higher dividends to the gov't coffers.
On that day the RAM might decide to do what was done a few years ago with the nations gold coin collection and auction it off.
With talk of flogging off the RAM itself that day may be sooner than later.
So what are the massive rarities in the collection?
I remember him telling me how the mint would exchange certain gold coins which were only ever struck for proof of record for Holey Dollars and Dumps. I believe he specified he had swapped a few of the 1918P Sovereigns and a couple of Sovereigns from the early 1920's (don't know if he had anything to do with the 1920-S) along with a few duplicate proofs the mint had. We spoke for a while about it but seriously when the National Collection deals it uses 1930 Pennies as small change there are utterly magnificent coins in the national collection from what he has told me but only a select few ever get to see inside the vault let alone the coins themselves.
He was there from 1965 to 1986 so he would have traded plenty of coins and seen most if not all of the national collection.
1930 pennies are not that hard to obtain (for a years wages) so the RAM having a couple is nothing. They purchased at least one circulated example back in about 1964 or 65 from Downies so that indicates that they don't have any Uncs from when they were minted
Have they ever published an inventory or are we the public (nominal owners) not allowed to know what assets we own?
Is it some state secret or do they think the unwashed masses are not worthy of being told?
The only 1930 Penny example the mint kept were a few proofs/specimens for proof of record I don't think they managed to pick up a circulation example prior? They do have inventory lists (but only for the mint to keep track) but they do find coins in there that they have no record of from time to time.
The ram is a factory with a shop front. The last assessment sent the insurance premiums way up through the roof. There is no way they'd be stupid enough to make that public. It had nothing to do with them hating the average Australian which seems to be a rather common attitude towards the ram here in this forum. Pity.yes sell it off and feel smug and then watch the public accountability dissolve before your eyes. The ram would become a strictly business model and the collectors will be screaming.just mark my words guys.
They won't sell of the national collection as it is covered under law which is administered by the Mint Museum Commitee which is independent of Government. All the government can do is change the guidelines on how the National Collection should be administered but the Committee has final say and can bend the rules a bit.
moved to the other thread
http://www.iagauctions.com/files/IAG_BC_Preview.pdf
I got dibs on the 1960 halfpenny.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='62918' dateline='1416912267'http://www.iagauctions.com/files/IAG_BC_Preview.pdf
Woow look at the pretty colours on that 1923 florin!
Is it likely that it won't achieve MS67 if graded by PCGS? General opinion is that NCG is more generous.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='62861' dateline='1416863757'The only 1930 Penny example the mint kept were a few proofs/specimens for proof of record I don't think they managed to pick up a circulation example prior? They do have inventory lists (but only for the mint to keep track) but they do find coins in there that they have no record of from time to time.
There is a little misunderstanding in your answer.
the mint that kept the coins wasn't the RAM but Melbourne. Melbourne didn't keep any 1930 penny proofs as they were sent out to selected museums after they were struck. Melbourne may well have retained some proof coins for other years.
Melbourne probably didn"t do much collecting (buying) of used (circulated) current Australian coins although their records do indicate that they were given sets of foreign coins from other mints.
There might be an inventory of coins transferred from Melbourne to Canberra somewhere. That inventory would be what Canberra would be using in swaps.
Mark Duff (the owner of the Benchmark Collection) was involved in the sale of much of the inventory (if my notes are correct). So I'm not sure how much juicy stuff is still in the vaults.
Then add in the likes of visitors such as David Gee and the inventory gets even smaller
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='62944' dateline='1416961397'Then add in the likes of visitors such as David Gee and the inventory gets even smaller
That is another reason why there was no good inventory list. If the public (or the accountants) knew what should be in stock then it is harder for the insiders to swipe goodies whenever they wanted or to sell them on the open market. If the stuff isn't in an inventory then it can be sold without being identified as stolen goods . Gee had an inside man at the RAM who was never punished.
If money was no object and you could purchase only one of the coins from this collection, which one would it be?
1930 London obverse penny. Just three known, and this one is reported to be the best.
Quote from: 'dcoin' pid='63012' dateline='1417082293'If money was no object and you could purchase only one of the coins from this collection, which one would it be?
1931 Halfpenny in MS64RD
1932 Florin for me !
Thoughts on the catalog/estimates? To me all of the coins seem estimated at retail prices.
the 1921/22 overdate Threepence.
Anyone bid on and won anything? :)
100 lots (out of 370-380) unsold.
Some of the estimates are high but the reserve prices are a bit more reasonable,but the big question
is will they crossover?
I bid on four coins but only ended up winning the one which was the 1942-D threepence. Hopefully it will grade at least ms65 at pcgs. It is currently graded ms66 by Ngc.
Quote from: 'kchan1111' pid='65750' dateline='1421977192'100 lots (out of 370-380) unsold.
Seems like a lot unsold.
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='65759' dateline='1421992179'I bid on four coins but only ended up winning the one which was the 1942-D threepence. Hopefully it will grade at least ms65 at pcgs. It is currently graded ms66 by Ngc.
It would be rather nice if it crossed over at the same grade and become "Top of the Pops"
Quote from: 'trout' pid='65782' dateline='1422001883'Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='65759' dateline='1421992179'I bid on four coins but only ended up winning the one which was the 1942-D threepence. Hopefully it will grade at least ms65 at pcgs. It is currently graded ms66 by Ngc.
It would be rather nice if it crossed over at the same grade and become "Top of the Pops"
That would be very nice indeed!
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='65784' dateline='1422002891'Quote from: 'trout' pid='65782' dateline='1422001883'Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='65759' dateline='1421992179'I bid on four coins but only ended up winning the one which was the 1942-D threepence. Hopefully it will grade at least ms65 at pcgs. It is currently graded ms66 by Ngc.
It would be rather nice if it crossed over at the same grade and become "Top of the Pops"
That would be very nice indeed!
If it comes back at MS64 then it turns a $700 coin into a $70 in a heartbeat.
I wish you well with this and please keep us posted as to the results from PCGS, Normally it is expected that NGC coins come down one point when graded by PCGS.
I don't know if it is rivalry between the two companies but I do know that PCGS isn't a fan of naturally toned coins and downgrade them accordingly.
TPG's are funny critters, I have a Gold Ducat that was originally graded at MS63 by NGC and cracked it out to put it in my Proc album in a 2x2 .
I got "Bagged' for doing this and sent the same coin off to PCGS and it came back Unc (Details) altered surfaces.
Totally NOT happy with that I cracked it out again and sent it back to NGC and it came back graded MS65
3 different grades on exactly the same coin :dodgy:
Quote from: 'spraggdean23' pid='65759' dateline='1421992179'I bid on four coins but only ended up winning the one which was the 1942-D threepence. Hopefully it will grade at least ms65 at pcgs. It is currently graded ms66 by Ngc.
Thats a good pick up... I have crossed over 15 NGC coins over to PCGS in the past 12 months.. normally it goes down by 1 point. However at times it is 2 points... 4 coins crossed over at the same level and 1 has gone up by a point...good luck with this coin... Hope this would cross over !