OK, so lets say someone was starting to get interested in slabbing their collection of Australian rare varieties. Do the TPG's currently have the ability or desire to do this, so far as possessing the necessary knowledge and experience goes. When you look at current local price guides, there are so many hugely important coins missing from the lists, it begs the question of how would TPG's know anything about these rarities. It really is laughable that such an important part of our coin history has been ignored by local publishers for so long, their lists border on negligence in my opinion.
I realise that a meagre few of our important early rarities have found their rightful place in the listings i.e. 1916 halfpenny mule, 1919 and 1920 penny dot above / dot below, 1920 penny dot above, as well as the 1933/34 penny over date. Unfortunately this is where it ends, the guides are just so far out of date it's not funny.
Incredibly there is no reference in the price guides to 1920 penny dot under lower scroll with London obverse, the extremely rare 1920 penny dot over lower scroll London obverse, the 1921 penny with London obverse, 1924, 27 and 31 pennies with Indian obverse, or indeed the extremely rare 1931 penny with dropped 1 Indian obverse. If we add the 1953 Melbourne penny with different 5 and 3, as well as the 1955 and 56 Perth mules, there's 10 coins that the TPG's would have very little knowledge of, but all of which attract significant attention whenever they turn up at auction.
Back to the original question, would the TPG's have the expertise to accurately process the above coins.
The TPG's I believe have the general policy of recognising coin varieties only when recognised in McDonalds guide from what I can remember from an old thread. They will sometimes recognise varieties not recognised in McDonalds however it is rarer for this to happen as they want to be completely sure. wwwww or drakesterling should be along soon to provide an authoritative answer on this however.
Just for your perusal, emu is a forum member.
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/publishedset.aspx?s=120231
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='60209' dateline='1412045456'Just for your perusal, emu is a forum member.
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/publishedset.aspx?s=120231
Thanks for that Rob, I reckon that seals it then. Apart from about three examples, the TPG's appear blissfully unaware of these important coins. What a shame it is that some of the rareities exhibited by EMU666 don't occupy top billing as they would if not thrown in with the common mintages.
The TPG's are aware of these varieties, the lack of
a Creditable 3rd Party identifier that they can point too
is what is missing.
(Renniks 2nd Edition dosn't cut it, nor Fred Lever's guide)
TPG's?
Sorry, me no savvy.
third party grading/graders
Thankyou.
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='60212' dateline='1412053543'The TPG's are aware of these varieties, the lack of
a Creditable 3rd Party identifier that they can point too
is what is missing.
(Renniks 2nd Edition dosn't cut it, nor Fred Lever's guide)
I think the two publications you refer to are excellent guides to generate awareness of the overall theme of variety collecting, and Fred Lever for example does offer up articles to do with the various reverse and obverse combinations. Unfortunately, a core group of rarities which includes those mentioned previously, tend to get lost in a sea of, for the want of a better term, lesser individuals. Just as importantly, the publications could make better reference to mintage, grade progression and associated values.
I realise that some information relating to mintage may be difficult to obtain, but a perusal of auction house results and archives, as well as results from internet auctions would confirm relevant information for grade and values.
Having said this, and with reference to the post by OMF, if McDonalds have become the bench mark, and the source of material by TPG's, it's up to McDonalds to get it right.
I'll add my tuppence worth.
There can be no accurate estimate for the mintages of the varieties as even the mintages for each year are estimates and the varieties were not generally noticed for years. The mint records are woefully lacking and at best some educated guesses using the records have been made.
Even sampling a large horde (or multiple hordes) will give a rough low accuracy figure as regional variations in both distribution and survival really screw things up.
I prefer Freds catalogue over the big 2 (Renniks and McDonalds) any day for pre decimal varieties. If the TPGs are waiting on them to provide the lead then that is a sorry state of affairs. I think we have been waiting since the Millenium for the McDonalds Opus and Renniks are but a shadow of the editions of 40 years ago. The TPGs would be better off dropping some emails to Walter and Peter (both PCGS affiliated dealers) to ask them what varieties should get recognised on the slabs. Peters already slabbed coins must have hi-def images stored in the PCGS database and that would provide a better reference than the 2 catalogues ever could.
Besides the die pairs already listed there are a few more that also deserve to be recognised, if they can recognise scores of VAM numbers for their silver dollars then why not a few of the different wide and narrow dates for our coins?
there are also other Australian numismatic experts who are not necessarily PCGS dealers but who are recognised for their knowledge of the Australian coinage and it's rarities
the Australian numismatic world is much bigger than generally talked about here
who would you go to for the verification of say, the 1930 proof penny?
I am not sure who you mean by "Peter'.
Maybe also, not Walter (not casting any nasturtiums at young Walter) but numismatists have to earn their credibility and reputation within the numismatic world both domestically and internationally. There has to be proven numismatic/historical knowledge and expertise or say a Mint connection in order to be recognised as having a certain authority. The Belinda Downies and the other dealers/numistacists of her calibre are also considered to have a certain expertise.
PCGS could confer with Australian experts for rarity verification and there is a possibility that they do.
I am not entirely convinced that PCGS rely 100% on Maccas as their only reference for Australian coinage.
A proper numismatist will refer to reliable historical records, expert advice and auctions records.
But take the 1930 penny, if PCGS went on Mint records alone, well they say it doesn't exist but expert opinion says it does. So a reliable numismatist etc. is required for the verification, not a book that simply lists a comprehensive reference listing of Australian coinage.
It is possible that PCGS get such a small amounts of the variation of the die pairs etc that it may not make it a viable business proposition to include in their descriptive systems. The English may make the same complaint about their varieties ?
Robbiegal, the Peter that I'm referring to is emu. He works at Stuart Andersens (sp?) and if you look at his PCGS varieties set that Ford posted you will see that his coins have much better photos than you will find in the thumbnail photos that catalogues might show.
Does it matter how young/old Walter is? He has shown himself to be highly knowledgeable on pre decimals (and how to assess PCGS grades) and his Bluesheet is a better catalogue than the 2 main printed ones.
The number of variety pennies is low compared to the number of normal ones, but the low numbers paradoxically makes it a prime (untapped) market. Nobody is going to slab say normal EF 1927 pennies, but even VF Indians are perfect for slabbing as most variety collectors know how desirable they are in even VF30. Must be several hundred out there that are good enough to slab. Also a TPG could use it as a differentiation point from other TPGs by offering to slab varieties. With computers printing labels it isn't a costly burden to add Indianor English to a slab or database and it pushes collectors who want complete registry sets to buy and slab variety coins.
I have more variety pennies in VF to EF than EF to Unc in the common version. The normal ones will be taking a trip to California first as the lack of variety recognition means the varieties are better of staying raw until they are recognised.
ok
didn't mean any insult WHATSOEVER TOWARDS Walter for being a (sweet) younger numismatist in the Australian coppers market and knowing Walter personally I do hope that he would realise that
gold, that is a completely different story of expertise with the Eigner boys
and I have no intention to start an argument about any particular person especially Walter, as I respect his numismatic abilities but if I wanted a 1930 proof penny verified I would not go straight to Walter, I 'd go to Tony Byrne or the Downies etc and Walter would respect my doing that
yes, I would confer with Peter or Fred and have sent coins to both of them for their eagle eyes opinion - which I respect 100%. and yes, I have met Stuart as well
ask Peter or Fred who they would and do refer to for a strictly professional and reliable second opinion on any of the Australian rare coins or rarer die varieties
I rest my case
I suppose that on reflection of the point that I am trying to make is that certain numismatists have certain speciality knowledge and a lot of that knowledge takes time and commitment to that speciality
and not a single person always has it all
the experts all confer with each other and formulate opinions based on either a consensus or a shared common ground
yes I'd overwhelming agree that Dr Peter would be a true die variety specialists just as Fred is but they form these opinions in collaborating with other experts as well
just as you Neil have your speciality knowledge in the pre-decs as well
Just as the Purple Penny is becoming the key experts in the Australian error coins, esp. the decimal errors
I have a bias towards my coin dealer as he is one of the few people who (quietly) values, catalogues and identifies rarities in it's entirety in the national collection, not many can lay claim to that expertise and very few in the numismatic industry have the expertise to do so
PCGS are an American firm and their leaning is to the local USA auction market, understandably, I appreciate their grading methods for wear and mint state of surface integrity but beyond that they offer very little numismatic expertise for the Australian market regarding our minting methods, the metals used for our earlier coinage or the die pairings etc.
and yes, for some collectors that is a serious omission, I don't disagree with that
Australians can apply to work with them (PCGS) as well - I read their job ads
and if they took more interest in the Australian market they'd seek out and employ the services for our expert advice
RG, I know you meant no disrespect to wwww:heart:
Yes, for each particular section of numismatics you would do to a different expert.
The best experts in numismatics are not necessarily professional but amateurs (as in people who don't do it as a commercial living but as a passion). Most dealers (even though coins are their profession) know naff all about the rarer varieties. Plus they have a financial motivation to not be strictly professional by doing things like implying a variety is rare and valuable when it is just scarce. By contrast the "amateur" isn't motivated by the commerce and he can spend more time (leisure) on the research than the professional (who has to make the most of his time).
Maybe the best experts are the knowledgeable enthusiast turned dealer.
thanks and yep I agree with you
I have been appalled by the obvious numismatic stupidity of many so called 'dealers' esp. the ones who only do it for the money not for any passion for aussie coinage and yes the Chris B. with his long term commitment to PCGS for aussie coins ; the Walters and Erics ; PP and the likes of those up and coming younger dealers are bringing a sophistication to the aussie collector market that has probably never been seen before.
I also know that my point of view is skewed by my own personal preferences. And I am not immersed enough in aussie numismatics to know all and sundry either, like some here will.
But with the collapse of the rare coin company the éxpert' who was called in (?) I think it was Andrew Crellin and he is someone who has a proven numismatic reputation.
to quote
"Andrew Crellin's numismatic career began with two years at the Perth Mint, followed by over a decade in Sydney employed with two of Australia's leading numismatic dealers. In that time, Andrew wrote two acclaimed books on Australian numismatics, appraised the Perth Mint's archival collection and was nominated to the position of Secretary of the Australasian Numismatic Dealer's Association (ANDA)." And so on.....
I would suppose they look for experience and publications, etc
for credibility. It is not a profession that has any recognised qualifications. Numismatics is more about accumulated knowledge and heavy on the mentoring.
I reckon that PCGS don't really care for our true blue collectors - they are after the big bucks in the rarities, IMHO.The issues that Trout is having with his pcgs slab descriptors, says it all to me. If they can't get the common old "grannie bait" (to quote) correctly identified then how the hell are they going to get a less known and rarer die pairing right?
Well I have to give PCGS some due because before I sent that Silver Proof set away to be graded there were many of the coins NOT listed and PCGS would have had to create new coin numbers for them and update the registry set .
They may be considered as "Grannybait" and I suppose ALL the NCLT issues come under that heading But it is NOT simply a "Walk in the Park" trying to assemble the coins in this series in Super high grades.
With the increasing amount of Aus collectors getting their coins slabbed lately I imagine that eventually we may become recognised as being an important sector of PCGS/NGC market and they will indeed start to lift their game as far as getting it right for varieties on Aussie coins.
In the meantime we will just have to "Soldier On" and get things fixed as we go :ok:
agree
ps - I learnt the term granny bait from u guys here!!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60333' dateline='1412210693'agree
ps - I learnt the term granny bait from u guys here!!
HeHe
If it wasn't for the NCLT/Grannybait my decimal collections would be horribly skinny :)
we should rename it trout bait
Don't give the mints ideas. They will be making silver fishing flys before you know it!
My cousin has made same silver fishing flies......... he lives in Holbrook NSW.
Are they shaped like a submarine?
Holbrook (nee Germanton) -I know it well. I have cousins there too.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='60278' dateline='1412158523'Besides the die pairs already listed there are a few more that also deserve to be recognised, if they can recognise scores of VAM numbers for their silver dollars then why not a few of the different wide and narrow dates for our coins?
If forced to nominate a list of penny varieties that should be included in the general price listings, I would only include the better known die types that were derived from a viewpoint of historical intention, but leaving out those considered as being from post die damage. :angel:
Could the TPG's expand our penny list by 26 slots? There are 32 on the list but they actually already include 6 of these. The world is full of hypocracy and contradiction I know, but as the TPG's appear to have already included a die fill i.e. 1942I with missing I mint mark, that widens the scope a little. Just love those 1922's, ha ha.
1913 left tilted 3, 1914 left tilted 4, 1915 left tilted 5, 1919 double dot, 1920 plain Indian obverse, 1920 double dot, 1920 dot above top scroll, 1920 dot below bottom scroll London obverse, 1920 dot above bottom scroll London obverse, 1921 London obverse, 1922 upright 9 common width date, 1922 upright 9 narrow date, 1922 wide date, 1922 wide date with spike on tail of 9, 1922 extra wide date, 1922 extra wide date with spike on tail of 9, 1924 Indian obverse, 1927 Indian obverse, 1929 Indian obverse, 1930 London obverse, 1931 Indian obverse, 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse, 1933/2 overdate, 1941 k.g high dot at Y, 1942I missing I mint mark, 1943I large reverse denticles, 1951 PL missing PL mint mark, 1953 long 5 different 3, 1955Y. narrow date, 1955Y. obverse 9 hybrid, 1956Y. obverse 8 hybrid, 1957Y. wide date.
There is a 1915 right tilted. I discovered it a while ago and it goes across the Threepence and Shilling 1915 series as well.
That's interesting OMF. I know of three varieties for the 1915 plain penny. (1) The left tilted 5 where the left edge of the upstroke of the 5 aligns with the left side of a dot in the inner circle, (2) where the upstroke aligns mid way between the centre and the left edge of the same dot, (3) where the upstroke aligns with the centre of the same dot. Apart from the obvious left tilted version, the other two are pretty subtle. I have an example of each, and I'm thinking your right tilted 5 may be a (3). Anyhow, have a look at some info by Mike Locke. http://www.calgoldcoin.com/
really you could have gazillions of the various varieties described
i'd think the key die/pairings + the overdates which are always popular, would be ok to describe but all of the slighter varieties (of which there are a multitude of regular variations) would just be spotted by the trained eye and sell accordingly
I guess that what you prefer to collect would colour which varieties are more important
for example, I think that the 1962 'double nose Queen' is a stunning error variation but alas, I don't think that PCGS describe it but if I spotted a beautiful unc one on a slab i'd be quietly very interested to buy that particular coin
I agree, you could come up with a list so extensive it would appear silly, but not to variety collectors he he, and we all have our favourites.
In reality, including the 6 already listed by PCGS for example, there must be in my opinion 20 or so core coins that warrant listing. Most are so scarce in any grade and rare in high grade, they don't need to be slabbed to attract attention from existing collectors. Although, while these coins continue to be ignored by the catalogues and Third Party Graders, it just makes for one more failed transfer of information opportunity for new entrants to the hobby.
But as mentioned previously in another post, it's a shame high grade examples that currently compete with the common mintages in registry sets are not given due recognition, as they would if allocated to a variety die registry.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='60377' dateline='1412308588'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='60278' dateline='1412158523'Besides the die pairs already listed there are a few more that also deserve to be recognised, if they can recognise scores of VAM numbers for their silver dollars then why not a few of the different wide and narrow dates for our coins?
If forced to nominate a list of penny varieties that should be included in the general price listings, I would only include the better known die types that were derived from a viewpoint of historical intention, but leaving out those considered as being from post die damage. :angel:
Could the TPG's expand our penny list by 26 slots? There are 32 on the list but they actually already include 6 of these. The world is full of hypocracy and contradiction I know, but as the TPG's appear to have already included a die fill i.e. 1942I with missing I mint mark, that widens the scope a little. Just love those 1922's, ha ha.
1913 left tilted 3, 1914 left tilted 4, 1915 left tilted 5, 1919 double dot, 1920 plain Indian obverse, 1920 double dot, 1920 dot above top scroll, 1920 dot below bottom scroll London obverse, 1920 dot above bottom scroll London obverse, 1921 London obverse, 1922 upright 9 common width date, 1922 upright 9 narrow date, 1922 wide date, 1922 wide date with spike on tail of 9, 1922 extra wide date, 1922 extra wide date with spike on tail of 9, 1924 Indian obverse, 1927 Indian obverse, 1929 Indian obverse, 1930 London obverse, 1931 Indian obverse, 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse, 1933/2 overdate, 1941 k.g high dot at Y, 1942I missing I mint mark, 1943I large reverse denticles, 1951 PL missing PL mint mark, 1953 long 5 different 3, 1955Y. narrow date, 1955Y. obverse 9 hybrid, 1956Y. obverse 8 hybrid, 1957Y. wide date.
The '42 penny is not a filled die, each die was individually punched with the I and on 1 die they forgot. A few other dies did suffer from die fill but are not completely missing the 1. The '51 PL is an example of the mint mark added to the master die so the missing PL is die fill.
The '41 high dot is probably a chip on the die (like the '39 dash after A).
We know you are passionate about 1922 so about the 1922 FBL and CBL? Or the 1922 Indian? (both from the master dies of 1920 (ex India) and 1921 (ex London).
In 1957 there is also the big mintmark variety (the product of a third reverse master used that year). There are also a few different years with true double tail coins such as 1957 (one was sold by Downies some years back). The major TPGs have slabbed and labled some errors that were knowingly produced by mint employees who pocketed them so being of possible/probable dodgy background does not make double tails not worthy of inclusion.
nealeffendi you make much sense here,and Fred Lever has done immaculate work with his guides
and the list could go on with our many varieties
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60469' dateline='1412551061'and the list could go on with our many varieties
That is a matter of opinion:heart:
If you take the position of Ian (from CAB) as to the definition of what makes a variety then every different die fault (chips, diecracks, doubled die etc), every different mint mark position (Perth mint) and myriad errors (clips, cold shuts, off centre strikes, struck throughs, filled dies, spur etc) makes a variety. That makes 10,000+ die fault varieties, a few thousand dot position varieties and virtually unlimited errors.
If you take the position of Fred Lever then all the die faults and error coins are all just interesting error coins and that limits pre decimal varieties to under a hundred. That includes the various date positions on both the bronze and silver. That number is doable for PCGS to recognise.
I love my error coins but I don't regard them as varieties.
QuoteI love my error coins but I don't regard them as varieties.
:agreed:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='60452' dateline='1412515447'The '42 penny is not a filled die, each die was individually punched with the I and on 1 die they forgot. A few other dies did suffer from die fill but are not completely missing the 1. The '51 PL is an example of the mint mark added to the master die so the missing PL is die fill.
That's interesting Neal, thanks, I thought the 42I was die fill. And yes, was aware of the 51 missing PL being a die fill damn it, but I still think mine is a little ripper :yahoo:
You mentioned a 1957 with a big mint mark? Can't locate any info about this one, you wouldn't be referring to the wide date?
Bump.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='60211' dateline='1412051965'Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='60209' dateline='1412045456'Just for your perusal, emu is a forum member.
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/publishedset.aspx?s=120231
Thanks for that Rob, I reckon that seals it then. Apart from about three examples, the TPG's appear blissfully unaware of these important coins. What a shame it is that some of the rareities exhibited by EMU666 don't occupy top billing as they would if not thrown in with the common mintages.
That's not the complete list of recognised varieties. See the Pop reports for the complete list of slabbed varieties. Many types (e.g. the London 1930 penny) are excluded from the Set Registry as they're too rare making the number of complete sets possible very low.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='96851' dateline='1472883965'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='60211' dateline='1412051965'Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='60209' dateline='1412045456'Just for your perusal, emu is a forum member.
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/publishedset.aspx?s=120231
Thanks for that Rob, I reckon that seals it then. Apart from about three examples, the TPG's appear blissfully unaware of these important coins. What a shame it is that some of the rareities exhibited by EMU666 don't occupy top billing as they would if not thrown in with the common mintages.
That's not the complete list of recognised varieties. See the Pop reports for the complete list of slabbed varieties. Many types (e.g. the London 1930 penny) are excluded from the Set Registry as they're too rare making the number of complete sets possible very low.
Yes that's true. My above comment of two years ago is certainly redundant, particularly as PCGS has since added many important varieties to the population and registry listings :good:
Still missing a few like the '46 florin with the big 6. Also has goofed by reclassifying coins without regards as to what they are. An obvious example is the large denticle florin where all slabbed 1953 florins were called small denticle when they began to differentiate between small and large (I have several slabbed examples in MS63 and I've noticed that several exist in MS65). Worse yet the same applies to the 1952P pennies where the scarcer die pairs are worth 3 points but the scarcer die pairs in older slabs are worth 1 point.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='96851' dateline='1472883965'See the Pop reports for the complete list of slabbed varieties. Many types (e.g. the London 1930 penny) are excluded from the Set Registry as they're too rare making the number of complete sets possible very low.
As far as I can tell, the only penny (other than the 1930 London) not included in the set registry is the 1925 Broken N (PCGS# 545374) - it was included briefly and then removed. At that point the penny set reached 95 coins, it is now down to 94.
EDIT: There are currently no complete sets.
Some scarce pennies included in the registry set :
1931 Calcutta Dropped 1 #569810 (Pop 6)
1927 Calcutta #569797 (Pop 9)
1920 London /./ #569749 (Pop 5)
Why remove the 1925 broken "N", It's not as if it is rare ??
Quote from: 'trout' pid='96925' dateline='1472949127'Why remove the 1925 broken "N", It's not as if it is rare ??
It wasn't a die pair but a die error and worse yet they included 2 different die errors as the same error. If they include that die error then why not the double nose queen, the 3 legged emu, the denticle pattern 1921 halfpennies, blobby 8, 1944 chipped 4 threepence etc etc. Consistency.
As for the 1930 English it should be included as a slabbed example exists and several raw examples are known with yet others rumoured to exist.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='96928' dateline='1472949623'It wasn't a die pair but a die error and worse yet they included 2 different die errors as the same error. If they include that die error then why not the double nose queen, the 3 legged emu, the denticle pattern 1921 halfpennies, blobby 8, 1944 chipped 4 threepence etc etc. Consistency.
As for the 1930 English it should be included as a slabbed example exists and several raw examples are known with yet others rumoured to exist.
:i_agree: the 1925 broken N is not a die pair, I read that it was the result of a die clash. Also agree that the 1930 London should be included.
Bumping this thread after 6 years for 2 reasons.
1/ Look at all the regulars that posted then but have not visited in years. Have they all gone to the great coin bourse in the sky or what?
2/ More importantly there does not seem to be any new varieties in these past few years that the TPGs have recognised.
Surely the coins struck off dies from fully dated hubs should make the grade.
The 3 most obvious examples are:
1934 wide date sixpence(at least 4 working dies)
1946 large loop 6 florin (at least 10 working dies)
1953 medium denticle florin (at least 5 working dies)
Each of the above exists in slabs (but undifferentiated from the regular), worse yet is that PCGS isn't even consistent in how they grade the '53 Medium. Some are in slabs labeled small denticle and some in slabs labeled large denticle.
Now I have in slab worthy grade 2 of the sixpences, 3 of the big loop and 15 of the medium denticles that I won't submit under the current system. How much (grading fees) are the TPGs missing out on from me and all the other variety collectors with similar collections who are holding back such coins from submissions until they recognise the varieties?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='126293' dateline='1652145934'Bumping this thread after 6 years.
1/ Look at all the regulars that posted then but have not visited in years.
with similar collections who are holding back such coins from submissions until they recognise the varieties?
Yes,'Two Bob' was a accurate Poster and obviously been around Coins all his life,sadly missed,don't know what happened to Walter,always got an Email on his upcoming sales but they have stopped as well.
Hope Fred(and yourself) get back to regular Posting,lot of Info stored in his head,it doesn't matter whether people agree,disagree or are blase it goes down as a record and keeps the Forum ticking over.
Fred has 3 articles in the latest CAB.
Perhaps 2 years of lockdowns made a mess of Walters main operation (numisbid) though he does have a limited number of choice coins on his sales part of his operation.
Still plenty of collectors out there (so why are they not in the forums?), buggers outbid me on most choice coins I bid on and it seems that prices are setting new highs for the top end stuff (especially anything graded top of the pops).
You would think what with all the time people had stuck at home during the lockdowns that they would have spent the time online, but the quiet spell has hit this forum for 2 plus years.
I'm in a little group up here in the Northern Rivers of NSW,6 at the moment although 2 have major health problems and a 3rd relies on his daughter to Email on his behalf,i think they are not interested in what other people think and just swap Info. in our little Clique..
We met thru Ebay and FB but they are also not interested in Forums per se but i'm trying to explain FB Coin Groups are similar but see what happens.
Was just reading an earlier post regarding Set Composition.
I think one glaring error in the Penny Set Registry is where the scarce 1920 Dot Over Top Scroll variety is worth 4 points, compared to the common 1920 Dot Over Bottom Scroll Indian Obverse which is worth 8 points.
Something very wrong there.
hi Auto, lots of things wrong with the points. 1920 double dot is 6 points, same as 1931 dropped 1 Indian and the 1919 double dot. Now I have an album full of 1920 double dots but wished I had a handful of the drop 1 Indians or a page of the 1919s.
Florins are just as bad, the 34/35 Centennial rates a 6 yet in MS65 it can be had for about $1000, try buying almost any Geo VI non S mintmark or 1946-47 in MS65 and they cost more than a Centenary in MS66 yet only get half the points.
Plus the whole point system is biased in favour of those who complete sets and not on the overall quality of the set. Somebody with a bunch of lower grades (but complete set) will outrank another set that is incomplete but nearly all gem (perhaps they are waiting to find the right coins which can be hard when assembling a gem set). For example in the shillings there is a complete set that rates higher than the next one ( 49.13 to 40.60) as it is 100% complete compared to 77.55% complete but the complete set averages 64.21 compared to 49.13. Now the complete set is virtually made up of Everyman coins (circulated) in Geo V and average MS for the rest, a nice collection and I'm sure its owner is happy to remain within his budget. but the whole set is probably worth $2000 yet most GeoV shillings costs more than that if you want a gem example. So it kind of makes the point system a let down if you are a high grade set (unless you can get the almost impossible to reach number 1 position).
You make some good points Neal.
I had this idea where another way of assessing a partially completed set was to look at the given Set Rating as a percentage of Set completion.
For example, where a Set rating is given as 34, and the Set completion is 60%, when applied as a percentage the alternate Set rating is 56.66. Obviously, if the top of the pops had a Set rating of say 65 and the Set completion was 100%, the alternate Set rating wouldn't change.
My theory was that those who decided to build a set by seeking out some of the harder examples in higher grade first, the given rating of the partially completed set didn't accurately reflect the quality of coins in the Set or the effort and commitment of meager funds, particularly when their pockets may not be as deep as others.
I'm not suggesting this method should replace the way Set ratings are now calculated, instead, as an additional rating which would fluctuate (probably downwards) as the Set was progressively added to. I did think it would create much interest for a lot more collectors.
Anyhow, I submitted my idea to PCGS, but no interest.
Hi Guys, still alive and will get back to writing about coins sooner or later.
I'm buried in catching up with 1920's to 1960's valve radios and a lot of theory behind magnetics, electrics and allied subjects leading into Transistors , integrated circuits.
Its all stuff I should have worked on 50 years ago and gained a better understanding but I was immersed in electronics as a job and making a crust.
Doing a lot of practical work in building equipment surrounding radios at the moment.
Of course all that has zip to do with coins, but suits me better at the present as I can control the experiments and move from one subject to the next without any pressure from "experts".
I am afraid coins are quite limited in the scope of experimenting with!
If I set up a press and start knocking 1930's penny coins out and seeing how things were made, the engineering behind it, mettalurgy etc, all hell will be let loose.
I can make a 1930's replica radio however and have that published in a major electronics magazine ( Silicon Chip) with no problem and no idiots running around screaming fake.
Just interested in how i managed to make an ancient bit of gear with what is available nowadays and the theories behind the electronics of the time.
Basil I think you have touched on the precariousness of the hobby, the guys who were the backbone of the buisness, dealers collectors are nearly all dead and buried.
A lot of the scarcity and rarity that was prevelant in the 1960's to 2000's was pretty much manufactured by the rigidity of the catalogue system.
If you have a rigid system like that nothing moves forward so here we are 20 years later now collecting shiny tokens..
Have you got, (gasp) the latest 1 dollar with a red circle (or something)...good grief..........................
Bit like collecting tulips.
Look at the cats now and be quick cos they (or it) may not exist much longer.
Absolutely chock full of shiny tokens and shirt buttons.
That mint just keeps on making more and more varieties of tokens feeding a diminishing market!
Wonderful how you can create a market selling nothing new.
Maybe this is the low point of a cycle and coin collecting will boom again but somehow I dont think so.
My grandkids are not interested in any way with music, coins, stamps, cars all the things that I have a workshop full of and are so last century.
How can kids not be interested in guitars and loud cars? Mine are not.
I have stuff that should be in a museum, but so do 1000's of other old guys and no museum wants stuff.
I see stuff from the late 1800's and early 1900's just tossed in the dumper bin, no interest.
Stuff that 30 years ago could have been auctioned and put in collections.
Those collections are now shut down, not viable to be run as museums so just wind up as land fill.
Now you can tell me I'm wrong!
Fred.
You are unfortunately not wrong. Those great "old" things that no one has any interest in currently will be of interest again in probably 50 years when the youngsters say I remember throwing something like that of grandads into the tip.
Too late for you though.
And RAM is doing what Australia Post did in the late 80s and early 90s and probably still does. Flooding the market with issue after issue to soak up as much money from we suckers as they can. Probably before they ban the use of money entirely.
Your right Fred about old stuff being just tossed out. Decade ago worked at a recycling plant. Old photo albums (with pictures of soldiers from both wars), stamp albums, royal visit (1954) souvenir magazines, a WW1 38mm brass shell casing (WW1 anti tank shell fired by a rifle). jewelry boxes with between the wars costume jewelry etc. Kept a lot of it (so I'm a bowerbird) but so much I couldn't. Obviously lots just tossed out by nursing home staff or those clearing deceased estates and just interested in selling the home.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='126393' dateline='1654254911'Hi Guys, still alive and will get back to writing about coins sooner or later.
Good to hear Fred,Covid still rampant up here on the North Coast of NSW.
Basil I think you have touched on the precariousness of the hobby, the guys who were the backbone of the business, dealers collectors are nearly all dead and buried.
A lot of the scarcity and rarity that was prevelant in the 1960's to 2000's was pretty much manufactured by the rigidity of the catalogue system.
Stuff that 30 years ago could have been auctioned and put in collections.
Those collections are now shut down, not viable to be run as museums so just wind up as land fill.
Fred.
Yes Fred,i've been posting on the US Forum on how Error/Variety collecting of Oz. pre-dec. has declined to the point you have to give them away on Ebay,very little interest with the new breed of collectors sucked into the Mints Decimal barrage of Coin releases.
Anyway,everything goes in cycles so interest in pre-Dec collecting may take off again.
QuoteAnyway, everything goes in cycles so interest in pre-Dec collecting may take off again.
True,
'Everything old is new again'
quoted by many, but I may attribute to Jonathon Swift coz Dr. Google told me, so it must be correct
Giving this thread a bump. I see PCGS has added five coins to their comprehensive penny set, making the total number of coins now required 102. Some may be difficult to find!
1919 DDO and DDR
1922 DDO
1952A. with English reverse DDO
1956Y. with Perth obverse DDR
Thanks Auto.
These are all extremely minor varieties not in keeping the nature of the set.
In protest I removed my emu666 set.
I get what you're saying. I already did have one example so happy to blaze on in quest of the rest if realistically achievable. The 1922 penny DDO in particular is a worry with just one recorded and no image to go by so, what is the key identifier? Same can be said for the 1956Y. DDR. I remember echidna posting images of a 22 in the past but are now taken down.
One would think a reasonable number of a particular variety must be registered to warrant inclusion, something at least like 8 to 10 examples otherwise they may as well include the 1930 English obverse penny as well.
I remember seeing a nice 1921 Indian obverse penny at auction which displayed clear DDO. Must be many other DDO's and R's out there.
Penny 1921 mostly red choice Unc, rarely seen in this grade/Australian Predecimal Coins | Downies Collectables (https://auctions.downies.com/lots/view/4-6O1HDZ/penny-1921-mostly-red-choice-unc-rarely-seen-in-this-gradeaustralian-predecimal-coins)
Yeah doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the variety set.