Was looking at a coin graded aU / UNC that one of our local auction houses has listed. While searching through past results of another auction house I discovered the exact same coin had been sold by them two years previous and was graded EF / gEF.
Taking a moderate view you could say it's just a matter of differing perceptions between two individuals. For experienced collectors it may not be an issue as anyone with the ability to grade accurately and who knows the market will decide what it is and bid accordingly. On the other hand, for the uninitiated still tiptoeing through the grading maze and using catalogue guides as a reference, there is the danger of making a blunder if the coin has been graded on the optimistic side.
Thinking about it, the issue of differing opinions leading to inconsistent grading, even if arrived at by using ANDA guidelines, would not necessarily be confined to our adjectival system. The same dangers must surely be relevant to the Sheldon system, as individuals within that system attempt to conform to its guidelines, or as personnel come and go.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='60024' dateline='1411618897'Was looking at a coin graded aU / UNC that one of our local auction houses has listed. While searching through past results of another auction house I discovered the exact same coin had been sold by them two years previous and was graded EF / gEF.
Taking a moderate view you could say it's just a matter of differing perceptions between two individuals. For experienced collectors it may not be an issue as anyone with the ability to grade accurately and who knows the market will decide what it is and bid accordingly. On the other hand, for the uninitiated still tiptoeing through the grading maze and using catalogue guides as a reference, there is the danger of making a blunder if the coin has been graded on the optimistic side.
Thinking about it, the issue of differing opinions leading to inconsistent grading, even if arrived at by using ANDA guidelines, would not necessarily be confined to our adjectival system. The same dangers must surely be relevant to the Sheldon system, as individuals within that system attempt to conform to its guidelines, or as personnel come and go.
All fair points.
PCGS get around this by using a consensus approach. This is from their website:
Each expert works independently in a controlled environment that provides optimum conditions for studying the characteristics and physical condition of each coin. A series of graders enters independent determinations in a computer database until a consensus is reached and the final grade is assigned. To augment their high level of experience, our graders can refer to comprehensive grading sets of U.S. and international coins in order to adhere to PCGS grading standards.
my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60050' dateline='1411685108'my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f
Yes, some of my worst purchases have been thru auction houses, both in Aust and the US. Makes you wary.....
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60050' dateline='1411685108'my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f
That's exactly why you'd get a coin graded by a TPG. Sure, PCGS and NGC are not perfect but they don't care what they grade your coin, as long as they believe they have applied their grading standard consistently. Compare this with a dealer whose profit margin is padded out by selling your coin as an UNC and buying it back as EF. Of course it's dealers like this who poo poo TPG graded coins the most publicly because they realise that if they gain market traction it's the end of their way of doing business. Bring it on I say.
Very interesting topic, the way I see it as previously mentioned is that opinions differ, the only one that really matters is your own and what you grade the product as. By using your experience and book knowledge to make an estimate and if still unsure (for your sake and others) drop a grade as a general rule (buying or selling). if auction houses buy a low grades (ef) and sell the same product as Unc, they are just flat out crooks. A good dealer will buy as Unc and sell as Unc and use their skills of negotiations as their profit tool and not the changing of grades. So I think learning how to grade and using your own opinion is key not to falling into any traps. Im still learning as dealers who have been in the game for 50 years plus would say. This is the message I keep getting in my research of grading so make your own rules and guidelines and stick to them
QuoteThat's exactly why you'd get a coin graded by a TPG. Sure, PCGS and NGC are not perfect but they don't care what they grade your coin, as long as they believe they have applied their grading standard consistently. Compare this with a dealer whose profit margin is padded out by selling your coin as an UNC and buying it back as EF. Of course it's dealers like this who poo poo TPG graded coins the most publicly because they realise that if they gain market traction it's the end of their way of doing business. Bring it on I say.
Well said Mark :good:
TPG coins ARE getting slowly traction in the market and it IS keeping the buggers honest because the coin is graded by an impartial grader.
I know neither NGC or PCGS are perfect But they are miles in front of the average dealer that can't even pick up a cleaned coin and quite frankly "Guesses" a grade to suit their own agenda.
Before you say anything, YES I was an adamant slab hater until it dawned on me that getting my coins slabbed was the ONLY way of having them impartially and accurately graded.
With the amount of fakes and BS grades out there I would be a bloody fool not to get my "Core" coins authenticated and graded by PCGS and NGC :ok:
I expect to eventually hold nothing but graded coins as they are easier to handle/record/value/sell/store than most other coins.
This is a huge thing given the sheer size of my collection but I am talking in 30 years time so no hurry.
having said that I will probably keep at least 1 raw typeset of pre decimal and decimal proof/unc coins just for personal enjoyment
Quote from: 'Oldcoinchest' pid='60059' dateline='1411719944'Very interesting topic, the way I see it as previously mentioned is that opinions differ, the only one that really matters is your own and what you grade the product as. By using your experience and book knowledge to make an estimate and if still unsure (for your sake and others) drop a grade as a general rule (buying or selling). if auction houses buy a low grades (ef) and sell the same product as Unc, they are just flat out crooks. A good dealer will buy as Unc and sell as Unc and use their skills of negotiations as their profit tool and not the changing of grades. So I think learning how to grade and using your own opinion is key not to falling into any traps. Im still learning as dealers who have been in the game for 50 years plus would say. This is the message I keep getting in my research of grading so make your own rules and guidelines and stick to them
Often-times you have to rely on the dealers grading as most of us cannot afford the time/effort/money to fly across the country (or to the US or UK) to inspect a possible purchase). The catalogue images and descriptions then become your main tool of determining grade. So you have to rely on the truthfulness and grading experience of the seller. Or you can rely on the impartiality of the first tier TPGs in knowing that the coin is genuine, isn't cleaned and the grading will generally be within a point of the true grade (if not spot on).
TPGs will crowd out the dealers who deal in overgraded/doctored coins as the price differences will make any seller of a quality coin get it slabbed and the dipped and other problem coins will predominate in the raw market that is left. Who would be left to buy raw coins from the dodgy dealers then?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='60068' dateline='1411730747'With the amount of fakes and BS grades out there I would be a bloody fool not to get my "Core" coins authenticated and graded by PCGS and NGC :ok:
I am in agreement with you here. Two of my core coins have turned out to be not so stellar. I'm thinking of ripping them out of the case and selling "as-is".
Unfortunately one was even brought from a dealer who frequented the forum before this one. It was cleaned (they both were). Whether he did it or he didn't know it makes you think twice about using them again.
Wavy20
QuoteI'm thinking of ripping them out of the case and selling "as-is".
Why not leave them in their respective slabs , At least they will be marked as being genuine and because they have been cleaned it would be the honest way to offer them up for sale :ok:
That's what this "Grading consistency" is all about.
A NO BS assessment and you get what you pay for :ok:
I'm still on the fence but starting to topple re raw V slab. There're pros and cons to both sides. I've attempted to come up with a method of rating using the following criteria of positives and negatives based on my wants and gut feelings. No doubt others will hold differing views. And had a bit of trouble Betty trying to do columns. :dodgy:
(1) Vested Interest. Sheldon P, Adj. N
(2) Differing opinion. Sheldon N, Adj. N
(3) Protection. Sheldon P, Adj. N
(4) Post encasement issues i.e. verdigris etc. Sheldon N, Adj. P
(5) Cost of buying slabbed. Sizable amounts paid. Is it sustainable? Sheldon N, Adj. P
(6) Perceived value if not slabbed. Sheldon P, Adj. N
(7) Storage i.e. 200 coins in album V's 200 slabs. Sheldon N, Adj. P
(8) Resale if creditable grade. Sheldon P, Adj. P
(9) Resale if not creditable grade i.e. loss of slabbing costs. Sheldon N, Adj. P
(10) Personal enjoyment. More positive connection if raw. Sheldon N, Adj. P
Often-times you have to rely on the dealers grading as most of us cannot afford the time/effort/money to fly across the country (or to the US or UK) to inspect a possible purchase). The catalogue images and descriptions then become your main tool of determining grade. So you have to rely on the truthfulness and grading experience of the seller. Or you can rely on the impartiality of the first tier TPGs in knowing that the coin is genuine, isn't cleaned and the grading will generally be within a point of the true grade (if not spot on).
TPGs will crowd out the dealers who deal in overgraded/doctored coins as the price differences will make any seller of a quality coin get it slabbed and the dipped and other problem coins will predominate in the raw market that is left. Who would be left to buy raw coins from the dodgy dealers then?
[/quote]
Im not sure what you mean? who would be left? who would want to buy dodgy coins? Maybe someone but just make sure its not you. I think you missed my point of trying not to get yourself into a position where you are relying on other people, dealers or graders unless you trust them. If your unsure or have doubt you should be on the side of caution. You say most of us don't have the time, effort or money to inspect the coin. If you don't take the time or effort then you run the risk of blowing some money that you say most don't have which equals a bad investment. When buying coins where 1 or 2 grades in difference is $100-$200-$500-$1000 it may be worth the effort. For me same applies with $1-$2-$10 difference. Im just saying its black and white. If your unknown to trust them or are buying off someone unknown and cant see it for yourself you run the risk. I understand it shouldn't be that way but that's the reality of the way the world can work when you rely on the unknown. See it for yourself, be on the side of caution or give it a miss. The choice is yours
OCC,what I mean is that the dealers of raw coins are getting stuck in a smaller and smaller market. The dishonesty and/or poor grading assessment skills of so many dealers in the past has led to many buyers paying a premium for slabbed coins and a discount for raw coins (in the US raw coins now sell for only 30% of the price of a similar slabbed coin, coins with problems will sell for even less and might get 10% of the price of a similar grade slabbed coin). As more good coins get slabbed then the pool of raw coins is drained of the good stuff and the pool becomes richer in the unslabbable stuff. At some point it will become too toxic for most buyers to risk and the only buyers left will be those who like to polish their coins,:icon_cry: All serious collectors (and investors) will then only be buying slabbed coins, lower value raw coins from impeccable reputation sellers or coins that they can properly inspect.
OCC, can you honestly say that you would never be in a position to buy sight unseen? Do you only buy from sellers in your home town? Because if you have ever absentee bid on an auction or ebay then you have not properly inspected the coin.
Also you cannot in practice err on the side of caution or give it a miss because to do so not only avoids the bad buys but the great bargains. I've lost a few thousand on bad buys but made multiples of that on the winning punts. Those good punts include buys from the US, UK, Canada, HK, China, Korea, Japan, France, Greece and about 20 other countries. It would be an impossible effort to go inspect the coins and at least for now the pool of raw coins makes the punts worthwhile. In another few years I might have to stop taking those punts as the supply turns toxic and only rely on the TPG graded sellers.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='60128' dateline='1411916106'I've lost a few thousand on bad buys but made multiples of that on the winning punts. Those good punts include buys from the US, UK, Canada, HK, China, Korea, Japan, France, Greece and about 20 other countries. It would be an impossible effort to go inspect the coins and at least for now the pool of raw coins makes the punts worthwhile. In another few years I might have to stop taking those punts as the supply turns toxic and only rely on the TPG graded sellers.
I agree Neal and have had the same experience by taking a punt have been able to end up in front by miles but have had a few nasty surprises but all my best coins head of to get slabbed and have duely increased in value because of it
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='60119' dateline='1411908662'I'm still on the fence but starting to topple re raw V slab. There're pros and cons to both sides. I've attempted to come up with a method of rating using the following criteria of positives and negatives based on my wants and gut feelings. No doubt others will hold differing views. And had a bit of trouble Betty trying to do columns. :dodgy:
(1) Vested Interest. Sheldon P, Adj. N
(2) Differing opinion. Sheldon N, Adj. N
(3) Protection. Sheldon P, Adj. N
(4) Post encasement issues i.e. verdigris etc. Sheldon N, Adj. P
(5) Cost of buying slabbed. Sizable amounts paid. Is it sustainable? Sheldon N, Adj. P
(6) Perceived value if not slabbed. Sheldon P, Adj. N
(7) Storage i.e. 200 coins in album V's 200 slabs. Sheldon N, Adj. P
(8) Resale if creditable grade. Sheldon P, Adj. P
(9) Resale if not creditable grade i.e. loss of slabbing costs. Sheldon N, Adj. P
(10) Personal enjoyment. More positive connection if raw. Sheldon N, Adj. P
This should be TPG vs raw, as the Sheldon scale is just a system of representingg grades and can be used for both third party graded and raw coins.
But re your arguments;
2. The idea of third party grading is that most collectors stick to only one or two grading services (usually PCGS or NGC), so the grading variances are similar to a collector only buying from one or two dealers, except with a much larger range of coins.
4. This affects both raw and TPG graded coins, they are however covered by the TPG (PCGS offers a 10 year guarantee that copper coins don't deteriorate in slabs and a lifetime guarantee for everything else) so I don't see how this is a negative for slabs and a positive for raw coins.
5. Most raw coins would be worth less if slabbed. Most slabbed coins would be worth less if raw. This is the nature of any market (that coins will eventually end up in the state they are worth most). The extreme cases in both categories are unsustainable in the long term.
8/9. your points here illustrate what I describe in 5. This isn't really a fault/benefit of TPGs, but rather the coin itself, TPGs merely reveal the true nature of the coin.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='60131' dateline='1411945407'This should be TPG vs raw, as the Sheldon scale is just a system of representingg grades and can be used for both third party graded and raw coins.
But re your arguments;
2. The idea of third party grading is that most collectors stick to only one or two grading services (usually PCGS or NGC), so the grading variances are similar to a collector only buying from one or two dealers, except with a much larger range of coins.
4. This affects both raw and TPG graded coins, they are however covered by the TPG (PCGS offers a 10 year guarantee that copper coins don't deteriorate in slabs and a lifetime guarantee for everything else) so I don't see how this is a negative for slabs and a positive for raw coins.
5. Most raw coins would be worth less if slabbed. Most slabbed coins would be worth less if raw. This is the nature of any market (that coins will eventually end up in the state they are worth most). The extreme cases in both categories are unsustainable in the long term.
8/9. your points here illustrate what I describe in 5. This isn't really a fault/benefit of TPGs, but rather the coin itself, TPGs merely reveal the true nature of the coin.
Of course you are correct about TPG V RAW. Appreciate your thoughts. I still have reservations about unsatifactory grades from TPG's, more to do with personal expectation V's end result and wasted fees, I guess in the end it relates to the owners perception and ability to acurately rationalise the item.
Ok here is my take on the Pro's and Cons of Slabbed vs Raw
1. Slabbed coins offer a consistency of grade and authenticity, whereas a raw coin doesn't.
2. 2. Raw coins ARE far easier to store than slabbed coins but it is just a matter of what you prefer and the amount of storage space you have available.
3. As a resale option a slabbed coin will far out perform a raw coin hands down.
4. You MUST learn how to grade to a certain standard before submitting a coin to avoid pitfalls like "Details" and receiving a lesser grade than expected, With raw coins it really doesn't matter.
5. It IS expensive to get coins graded by PCGS and NGC but if you do it right this cost is offset by the eventual resale value of the coin, A raw coin costs little to nothing to store in a 2x2.
6. A slab offers far better protection than a 2x2 for the coin.
7. A raw coin is easier to look at, weigh and photograph than a slabbed coin.
8. A raw coin is normally cheaper to buy than a slabbed coin But if you don't know what you are doing and are uncertain as to the grade and authenticity of a particular coin you can come undone quite easily.
I am in the process of getting all my Valuable, scarce/rare and High grade coins Slabbed by either PCGS or NGC.
Am I wasting my money .............Possibly
Have I added value to these coins............Hopefully
Are my coins now better protected than when they were in 2x2's ....Certainly
Am I enjoying the process of doing this...........My oath I am :)
Thanks for insight nealeffendi, all makes sense. Im not saying I have never bought an unseen coin or item, ofcourse I have but in doing so I have always made a decision to work out what im happy to part with (risk). Its good to hear that you have come out on top on of it all. I just got some rules that I follow to try & keep me out of trouble. Some times the best investment can be to keep you money in the pocket but no risk no reward
I'm interested in getting a few medium value coins slabbed but I'm very reluctant to mail these out,the thought I will never see them again scares me
If you are worried about loosing them then can I suggest you send a message to wwwww, a member of this forum who may be able to assist you.
I sent seven 2000 Mules and two major error 50c pieces and got them all back via wwwww.
No problems.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='60216' dateline='1412056823'If you are worried about loosing them then can I suggest you send a message to wwwww, a member of this forum who may be able to assist you.
I sent seven 2000 Mules and two major error 50c pieces and got them all back via wwwww.
No problems.
What was the final all up slabbing fee+post cost (per coin) for the two error coins? How often does Walter put together a lot of error coins to send as the return postage on just a couple of error coins must be a killer.
Not sure how often Walter puts coins together to send to the plastics factory but my all in cost per coin was $35.00.
I was more than happy to deal with Walter and would recommend him to anyone.
I am not sure how many other coins Walter added to my group to send off. That can only be answered by Walter, sorry.
I charge $25 per coin to send over most mules (and decimal coins). This is the "all-in" cost, except for insurance. Different coins will be charged at different rates. You can see the full details on my site:
http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/news-wire/news-wire/pcgs-grading-costs-and-services
Eric Eigner
Quote from: 'markn' pid='60052' dateline='1411690625'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='60050' dateline='1411685108'my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f
That's exactly why you'd get a coin graded by a TPG. Sure, PCGS and NGC are not perfect but they don't care what they grade your coin, as long as they believe they have applied their grading standard consistently. Compare this with a dealer whose profit margin is padded out by selling your coin as an UNC and buying it back as EF. Of course it's dealers like this who poo poo TPG graded coins the most publicly because they realise that if they gain market traction it's the end of their way of doing business. Bring it on I say.
my thoughts exactly move with the times or retire as the dealers who bag pcgs are dinosaurs who need to go SOONER rather than later
Quotemy thoughts exactly move with the times or retire as the dealers who bag pcgs are dinosaurs who need to go SOONER rather than later
I think it is FAR more important that collectors learn how to Grade a coin and detect cleaning, dipping and other issues including Fakes.
There will ALWAYS be Raw coins on the market and it is unfeasible to have every single coin graded by a TPG, Also many collectors abhor slabbed/slobbed coins .
Education IS the secret and the more savvy collectors get the less chance an unscrupulous dealer will have of deceit :ok:
Lets not forget the Many honest and reliable B+T dealers that sell RAW coins and have been for years, Just because a coin isn't TPG graded and slabbed doesn't mean it is "Unworthy"
I agree that a PCGS/NGC graded coin is a fantastic way of purchasing a coin "sight unseen" , But so is the knowledge that the dealer you are buying off is reliable and consistent with their grades and authenticity.
There is also the issue with APCGS and other "Unrecognised" ( I tried to put that as nicely as I could :angel: ) putting over graded and cleaned coins in slabs that are just as shonky as those other "Dinosaurs" :ok:
A well known seller of "superbly Polished" coins was one of the first to use this "Newcomer" in the TPG market and many of his "Cronies" have followed suit taking advantage of what PCGS and NGC coins have done for the reliability of a coins grade and condition.
SO
EDUCATION is paramount regardless of whither a coin is slabbed or raw because either way you can be "Shafted" if you don't take due diligence.
:agreed:
IMHO, if an item is rare, of high grade, and desirable, it doesn't matter if it's slabbed or raw.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='64727' dateline='1420179378':agreed:
IMHO, if an item is rare, of high grade, and desirable, it doesn't matter if it's slabbed or raw.
On that statement I believe it would be even more supportive of slabbed coins as I have heard absolutely nightmarish stories of coins sold at some major auction houses which would certainly push any collector towards buying coins already slabbed. Some due to incompetence all the way through to intentionally deceptive behaviour by the auction house. Unfortunately though we don't hear a lot of these as legislative provisions designed to protect auction houses are so strong unethical auction houses would have to be exceptionally stupid to get caught let alone prosecuted.
No doubt some of what you say about perceived occasional conduct by some auction houses may have merit, but as trout said, "education is paramount". There is absolutely no excuse for collectors or investors being caught out, they need to educate themselves and do their research before taking the plunge into deeper waters. They certainly should not place blind faith in those who have a vested interest, only lazy people do that.
An educated collector who knows how to grade, for example, would pay no more for say a 1930 penny graded VF, or whatever, just because it was in a slab. Same for a 1920 penny / ./ London obverse, or a 1931 dropped 1 penny Indian obverse and so on and so forth.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='64737' dateline='1420184993'An educated collector who knows how to grade, for example, would pay no more for say a 1930 penny graded VF, or whatever, just because it was in a slab. Same for a 1920 penny / ./ London obverse, or a 1931 dropped 1 penny Indian obverse and so on and so forth.
Too true AC, being slabbed however may also open up the sale to a wider market to include collectors who are less confident in their grading skills and who are worried about authenticity
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='64748' dateline='1420190459'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='64737' dateline='1420184993'An educated collector who knows how to grade, for example, would pay no more for say a 1930 penny graded VF, or whatever, just because it was in a slab. Same for a 1920 penny / ./ London obverse, or a 1931 dropped 1 penny Indian obverse and so on and so forth.
Too true AC, being slabbed however may also open up the sale to a wider market to include collectors who are less confident in their grading skills and who are worried about authenticity
That's where APCGS and the like become a real worry :ok:
Regardless of which slab the coin is in ( Even the top 2 TPGS have got it wrong on the rare occasion) Judge the coin itself, NOT the slab.
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='64748' dateline='1420190459'Too true AC, being slabbed however may also open up the sale to a wider market to include collectors who are less confident in their grading skills and who are worried about authenticity
Point taken stevo, but IMO it still gets back to placing blind faith on the say so of another entity, whether there is conflict of interest or not.
These days a lot of grading is done without the coin in the hand.
So image quality is very important.
Unfortunately too many photos are not good enough.
Even some big dealers like Nobles have sub-standard images.
If you are going to spend reasonable amounts of money then there is an addition skill required which is to grade based on sub-standard images.
There has been a thread about this in the past but I'd like to see much more info.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='64758' dateline='1420194060'These days a lot of grading is done without the coin in the hand.
So image quality is very important.
Unfortunately too many photos are not good enough.
Even some big dealers like Nobles have sub-standard images.
If you are going to spend reasonable amounts of money then there is an addition skill required which is to grade based on sub-standard images.
There has been a thread about this in the past but I'd like to see much more info.
This is particularly relevant for many online collectors who will never be able to view coins in hand and once you make a few bad purchases you will soon learn to scrutinise those photos even harder as I have learnt over the years.The sting in the wallet is a lesson you learn very fast
QuoteThis is particularly relevant for many online collectors who will never be able to view coins in hand and once you make a few bad purchases you will soon learn to scrutinise those photos even harder as I have learnt over the years.The sting in the wallet is a lesson you learn very fast
:agreed:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='64737' dateline='1420184993'No doubt some of what you say about perceived occasional conduct by some auction houses may have merit, but as trout said, "education is paramount". There is absolutely no excuse for collectors or investors being caught out, they need to educate themselves and do their research before taking the plunge into deeper waters. They certainly should not place blind faith in those who have a vested interest, only lazy people do that.
An educated collector who knows how to grade, for example, would pay no more for say a 1930 penny graded VF, or whatever, just because it was in a slab. Same for a 1920 penny / ./ London obverse, or a 1931 dropped 1 penny Indian obverse and so on and so forth.
Education is very important however when a coin in hand has very blatantly been cleaned but then photographed in a way which not only disguises but completely eliminates any traces of it without even mentioning it in the listing is absurd. The auction house may have a vested interest in selling the coin but they also have a vested interest in doing it ethically. It would be similar to buying a house with all the right supporting paperwork only to find out later that the foundations are faulty. I am not saying you should place blind faith in these auction houses but at least an expectation to display a coin as it is rather than using nearly every technique available to disguise it.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='64767' dateline='1420202560'Education is very important however when a coin in hand has very blatantly been cleaned but then photographed in a way which not only disguises but completely eliminates any traces of it without even mentioning it in the listing is absurd. The auction house may have a vested interest in selling the coin but they also have a vested interest in doing it ethically. It would be similar to buying a house with all the right supporting paperwork only to find out later that the foundations are faulty. I am not saying you should place blind faith in these auction houses but at least an expectation to display a coin as it is rather than using nearly every technique available to disguise it.
What you're saying unfortunately does happen, it's happened to me. I would like to think the prevalence of this behavior is limited, and IMO the best way to counter any dodgy activity like this is to acquire knowledge, and the skill to carry out our own appraisal. If the item is something that has long been on the wish list, I reckon the biggest danger is to allow the emotion and excitement of the moment to cloud our judgement.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='64768' dateline='1420205044'Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='64767' dateline='1420202560'Education is very important however when a coin in hand has very blatantly been cleaned but then photographed in a way which not only disguises but completely eliminates any traces of it without even mentioning it in the listing is absurd. The auction house may have a vested interest in selling the coin but they also have a vested interest in doing it ethically. It would be similar to buying a house with all the right supporting paperwork only to find out later that the foundations are faulty. I am not saying you should place blind faith in these auction houses but at least an expectation to display a coin as it is rather than using nearly every technique available to disguise it.
What you're saying unfortunately does happen, it's happened to me. I would like to think the prevalence of this behavior is limited, and IMO the best way to counter any dodgy activity like this is to acquire knowledge, and the skill to carry out our own appraisal. If the item is something that has long been on the wish list, I reckon the biggest danger is to allow the emotion and excitement of the moment to cloud our judgement.
I agree knowledge certainly does help in avoiding it. However I think we are approaching the question itself from two different perspectives in that mine is aimed at preventive while yours is reactive to the practice. Both of which are certainly valid but just down to interpreting the question/meaning a bit differently.