I am trying to put a few hundred of my old 'stock coins' visa vie 'retirement planning' - mostly a bit better than average circ but not highly valuable etc, into coin pages (cause I threw out all of my old numis albums which I am now regretting)
so I am putting a coin into a flip then slotting it into a page
now if I had ARCHIVAL single coin slots across a page - then all I would have to do it slot the coin in - no coin holder required
surely the fab purple penny inc. could design and fabricate an archival material coin page (esp for aussie pre-decimal & decimal sizing) - no one else is doing it
the PP coin pages are a good thick & strong material so it should hold up
i'd buy quite a few if they were available .........
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='59671' dateline='1411188550'I am trying to put a few hundred of my old 'stock coins' visa vie 'retirement planning' - mostly a bit better than average circ but not highly valuable etc, into coin pages (cause I threw out all of my old numis albums which I am now regretting)
so I am putting a coin into a flip then slotting it into a page
now if I had ARCHIVAL single coin slots across a page - then all I would have to do it slot the coin in - no coin holder required
surely the fab purple penny inc. could design and fabricate an archival material coin page (esp for aussie pre-decimal & decimal sizing) - no one else is doing it
the PP coin pages are a good thick & strong material so it should hold up
i'd buy quite a few if they were available .........
The mini PP albums have a flap at the top of the insert, That would hold a coin without the need of a holder
The one downside of the PP page in the archival polypropylene material is that it's a bit slippery.
PVC on the other hand will glue your coins right in there without the need of a holder:dodgy:
I'm not really sure but I think I know what RG means trout as I asked a while ago about different sorts of pages for the same reason and now RG and got the same answer you gave but the coins slop around and tend to come out so I'm thinking there's a market there as that's what I had when I first started but the bloody things are PVC and done some damage to some coins before I found out and then went to staple 2x2 and now saflip and PP albums so if you find any RG please yell out :beg:
Here are the rotten things and you can see the marks that are still on the pages :dash1:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2v0o6t0.jpg)
Sorry didn't see your post PP as it takes me forever but yes the coins don't move but you pay a dear price :(
yes we live and learn but wish it wasn't such a hard lesson :winkextra:
Hey on seeing this I went back to check on one of my old albums which I haven't checked in a while only to find marks similar to yours AJ tho only part of the way around and not nearly as noticeable (looks almost like scratches on the pages?) with some coins looking like they have PVC (or similar green thing) on a few $2 coins I collected. So most likely now I will just cash in the Australian decimal coins and donate the remaining coins and albums to the High School see if they can use it to teach arts or some international subject. Otherwise I checked my Lighthouse Album (which I keep just underneath the other album) where I keep my valuable coins and coins not from circulation and thankfully I only put the safe Lighthouse pages in so extremely relieved about that.
It's a shame about the coins in the other album they were some of the first coins I collected tho.
For bonus points some of the pages that I bought for that album were from my local dealer who I explicitly asked if they contained PVC and he said no so definitely not impressed at the moment.
I have NEVER had reliable information from ANY dealer ever about the 'PVC' question
most a thick as two bricks
We live and learn as I got those sheets about 10 year ago from the news agent and it wasn't until I got on ccf that I found out that I had PVC and yes it leaves some major damage if left in it for a long time like they were so was not a happy camper I can tell you but I like the idea of those sheets for lesser grade coins and yes most of the coins that were in them ended back in the pond and a total waste of time effort and money :dash1:
Was that the sort of thing you were thinking/talking about RG??
a heatsealer and a bunch of saflips cost bugger all, far better than those scungy pvc sheets
correct mate but if I could get these sheets so they don't have any of that icky PVC for the lesser grade coins it would be good but I don't like my chances.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='59703' dateline='1411211552'We live and learn as I got those sheets about 10 year ago from the news agent and it wasn't until I got on ccf that I found out that I had PVC and yes it leaves some major damage if left in it for a long time like they were so was not a happy camper I can tell you but I like the idea of those sheets for lesser grade coins and yes most of the coins that were in them ended back in the pond and a total waste of time effort and money :dash1:
Was that the sort of thing you were thinking/talking about RG??
yep it is AJ
true I get lots where the coins are pvc affected - it happens a lot
just to conveniently store larger numbers of say , ave. circ/lustred or a bit better pennies - save having to put each penny into the flip and so on
more about convenience than cost but as well, but having said that, when you spend around $10 to house 50 coins then it is not cheaper to saflip the old pennies. I have in the past cut the flip in two and then heat seal it bit fiddly but it doubles the storage options. But then the flip has to be sealed then and they slip out of the coin pages much easier as well
I have been storing my coins in those cellophane bags and they are great as well
anyways just a thought
Quote from: 'trout' pid='59674' dateline='1411189606'The mini PP albums have a flap at the top of the insert, That would hold a coin without the need of a holder
hum I have a couple of those
I hadn't thought to try them
could test it out
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='59703' dateline='1411211552'We live and learn as I got those sheets about 10 year ago from the news agent and it wasn't until I got on ccf that I found out that I had PVC and yes it leaves some major damage if left in it for a long time like they were so was not a happy camper I can tell you but I like the idea of those sheets for lesser grade coins and yes most of the coins that were in them ended back in the pond and a total waste of time effort and money :dash1:
Was that the sort of thing you were thinking/talking about RG??
Gee I have seen the coin sheets around at the newsagent for a number of years I must wonder why these PVC supplies are even sold? I have had my old album for at least 8-10 years if not longer some of the pages are newer probably around 3-4 years old. Anyway for my best coins I use a Classic Red Numis Album which is (in my opinion) a beautiful album (planning to get another album however cut between another Classic Blue one or one of the new Numis ones in Burgundy? or a Numis 3000 in Red or Blue too many options lol.)
Anyway veering back on to the straight and narrow. Could someone tell me about these PP albums I haven't heard much about them except I know they are archival so they are safe but could anyone comment on how many pages you could fit in one of them?
Also RobbieGal what type of heatsealer do you use and how does it work? heard about this method a bit but haven't found out how exactly it is done?
May consider these PP albums too with the method by RobbieGal.
ho florin
I used the numis slide in coins sleeves in the albums for well over 8 years and all the coins were A OK
now I have them in bags in bins and it is totally hopeless
much better being stored in albums
heaps of people here use the PP albums
link below and I am sure that you will get heaps of positive comments from members here
the coin pages just last and last & none of mine have gone brittle
http://www.thepurplepenny.com/coin-collecting-supplies,22.html
I got a small heater sealer off ebay years ago
and then I took it for a test and tag just be sure
I don't actually know how they work - you just press the lever down and it heats and if it melts the plastics correctly - they seal
mine looks like this but it is half the size
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-IMPULSE-HEAT-SEALER-300MM-ELECTRIC-PLASTIC-POLY-BAG-SEALING-MACHINE-/350837252050?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Restaurant_Catering_Equipment&hash=item51af879fd2#ht_4370wt_1365
I did try the PP albums without saflips and that's why I said they slip around too much other wise I would use PP albums with out the saflip.
Sounds interesting thanks for the help. Interested on testing it out. Btw could PVC transfer from touching PVC pages (which may or may not feel a bit sticky) then touching coins? I don't think so but interested to hear nonetheless?
Quotecould anyone comment on how many pages you could fit in one of them?
The most pages I have in a PP album is 18 pages in my florin album about 350 coins.
As I store all my albums flat the weight isn't a problem , If however I decided to store them on their sides like books then I imagine I would start to damage the binders.
I had all my silver proof $1 coins in these albums for a couple of years and they all graded out really well Not a single "Boddybag" so they are the bees Knees as far as coin protection goes.
All in all I am very pleased with the pages and binders
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='59725' dateline='1411256817'Sounds interesting thanks for the help. Interested on testing it out. Btw could PVC transfer from touching PVC pages (which may or may not feel a bit sticky) then touching coins? I don't think so but interested to hear nonetheless?
Yes, from what I understand PVC will leach so no don't put ANY PVC near your coins is the best advice, better to be safe than sorry :angel:
I know it can leach AJ tho would it be enough to simply touch a PVC page then a raw coin not near the pages for the PVC to transfer? Anyway moved out the PVC album and put it seperately tho paranoid about previously touching the PVC pages with my hand then handling raw coins being placed in 2x2s which were then put in my safe Lighthouse album. Not a great explanation but perhaps a bit better now? I am probably being silly here but having genetics of anxiety and ocd on either side probably doesn't help lol.
I don't think there'd be a problem the way you describe it omf. If you were handling already sticky PVC damaged coins, then I'd be making sure Not to touch any good raw coins, but just handling the pages shouldn't do any harm.
but.... be very careful handling raw coins without gloves, fingerprints can be very harmful and impossible to remove without damaging the coin. You might not be able to see the fingerprints now, but wait a few years..., unless of course you are only handling them by the edges. :winkextra:
Thanks Nevol you put my mind at rest very paranoid about my coins as I see them as a part of history and would be absolutely devastated if they were damaged in my care. Anyway I always handle by the edges even my ancients which aren't usually treated like that by the ancients guys and gals and that is only in the process of putting them into the 2x2s outside that I never touch the coin itself.
Mylar 2x2s are best way to initially protect coin then store in a 2x2 sheet holder I like the Lighthouse ones
Here we go again, for the umpteenth time. :dodgy:
What does the damage to our coins are chemical reactions, mostly involving acids, which in turn mostly involve moisture. Therefore its critical to exclude these so they don't come into contact with the metal.
PVC, as we all know by now, leaches the plasticisers which make it soft. Which react with moisture to form acids which eat the coin surface.
Note that these are gasses. Its not about something being in contact with the PVC. A PVC folder containing 'safe' pages will still damage the coins, if the gasses can get to the coins.
And as I recently reported with the foam cushions, plastics are not impermeable to gasses.
It comes down to the size of the molecules and the thickness and structure of the plastic. In other words, is the gas 'thread' able to pass through the 'eye' of the plastic 'needle'?
The answer is yes. Look at this table:
(http://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachments/f11/110558d1364226348-oxygen-permeability-5-pp-polypropylene-o2.jpg)
Notice that none of the numbers are zero? The best by far is PET, but even that is permeable. PP, which is what 'archival' pages are made of, is thirty times worse. Even HDPE is ten times worse.
There is of course a tradeoff. Safety/Price/Convenience are pretty much mutually exclusive. I opt for LDPE, because its free, and I store the heat-sealed bags in larger, thicker bags. I am now considering giving up the ability to easily access/view my coins by switching to metallised multi-layer bags, such as used in chip packets. These are very very good at preventing gasses passing through them. Leave a packet of chips on a hot dashboard and see what happens to it.
If you're going to use PP pages or flips (also PP, regardless of brand names), store them in a PET jar. In a foil bag. In a vacuum. In a vault. :angel:
Oh, and all pages deform. Marks are not a sign of PVC. Smell and texture are pretty good indicators though.
Yep that is fine I store my coins in a lighthouse album with a slip cover in lighthouse pages in Renniks or lighthouse 2x2s I used to unknowingly store my album with PVC pages on top of it (I will try a flame test this afternoon to confirm) and keep a coins on the shelf below also in 2x2s (they do crack open at times when not in pages which is a little annoying) alongside my PCGS coins in the blue pcgs box. Otherwise it is an small 60 by 80 cm space but it is temperature controlled and low humidity which I think are needed for the decomposition of PVC.
On a side it's i remember hearing that light can also breakdown pvc. So probably best not to build anything that isn't underground with it. Think they use it primarily in walls for fire retardant cause of the chlorine and in piping now a days.
Sorry guys and gals I am going to bow out of this thread just thinking about it causes me anxiety.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='59823' dateline='1411341953'If you're going to use PP pages or flips (also PP, regardless of brand names), store them in a PET jar. In a foil bag. In a vacuum. In a vault. :angel:
SAFLIPS are not PP, they PET.
Quote from: 'oh my florin' pid='59827' dateline='1411350253'(they do crack open at times when not in pages which is a little annoying)
Easiest fix for that is to use non-adhesive 2x2's (which are also cheaper) and iron them shut. Its permanent, but then so are the self-adhesive ones, eh? :)
---
Saflips are PET, eh? OK, that's cool.
What I want to see is album pages made out of coin friendly plastic that fit 1½x1½ holders. 30 coins per album page instead of 20.
Smaller coins only of course.
I think the ideas are all good. The trouble is that tooling and setup costs for a product for the very small Australian market are horrific. And the actual sales volume is TINY. For example our starter pack which includes an album, 10 x 20 pocket pages, and 4 packs of SAFLIPs with inserts is $95 landed at your door. That's a complete storage solution for 200 coins for under $100. Now, I don't know about you but one of those starter packs is enough storage for me for two years, perhaps even three. So a collector like me would buy one album every few years. And this is with our pages which were the simplest design we could come up with and SAFLIPS are about the best 2x2 holder there is. They can be used for almost everything. Despite that the volume just isn't there in Australia. We could look at export but we have no marketing expertise overseas, no money to get our product overseas, and honestly, we don't really want to.
Compare this with a page with a flap on the top of each pocket. Tooling and setup costs would be stupendous. Let alone how long it would take to design something. And I doubt we'd sell a quarter of the volume of the normal pages because they'd likely be twice as expensive. We've seen a lot of collectors turn their noses up at our pages at about $1.10 each because they can get PVC pages for under a dollar a page. The same applies with 1.5" pages. I don't actually know anyone in RL who uses 1.5" holders anymore and I can recall one dealer who has them in his stock books. So that leaves a couple of people on this forum. Let's tool up for them, that'll be $500. Per. Page. Uh, yeah, nah I don't think so.
just a though
that was all
looks like a no go
maybe I will get out the iron and make some for myself!! ha ha
I did seal some pages up like how you guys have it demonstrated I you blog
that will do me for now
thanks for considering some suggestion seven though they appear non-viable
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='59873' dateline='1411383135'just a though
that was all
looks like a no go
maybe I will get out the iron and make some for myself!! ha ha
I did seal some pages up like how you guys have it demonstrated I you blog
that will do me for now
thanks for considering some suggestion seven though they appear non-viable
I think they are good ideas. Our market is so piddly though. Our little mini album was designed by us from the ground up and the pages with the flap on top were a nightmare to get made. And they cost as much as the big album pages despite there being only about a third of the material in them. They still won't hold a heavy coin in them though unless the coin is in a 2x2 or a SAFLIP. They'd need to be completely re-engineered to hold coin in them. The PVC hold coins in them because of the stiffness of the material and the higher coefficient of friction compared with polyprope.
That being said the mini albums work a treat for tin badges. Hold them in there nicely and they look awesome!
If you just want to store extra/spare coins then Fulvio came up with some ingenious ideas involving bank bags and a heat sealer :good:
All my extras I put in saflips and heat seal them then shove them in a sandwich sealable bag.
The smaller coins are great in the 2.5x2.5 saflips because you can 4 per side and use the heat sealer to keep them separated.
I currently have 12 of the PP albums for different collections to replace the crappy albums I had my coins stored in.
I also bought a few others to send to a couple of Mates because I was so impressed with them.
You would be amazed at the amount of coins you can store in these puppies , Its way over 200 per album :good:
yep yep
I have the pp albums as well
just wanted a less serious storage for the more ave. circ or a tad better
a lot of the time that is all a pre-dec collector has
I flip ém and pop them into the pages
but having gone through a few hundred this week-end it made me think that the non pvc coin page might be an option
I can cut the flip in half but then I have to seal it & then they slide out of the pages
I saw fulvios sealed bank bags but they are rolls
I do make up rolls of my better grade coins in cellophane bags and tape them up + label as well
anyways I don't have a great deal of coins but I have kept better grade coins and wanted to store them for a while longer i.e. for when I retire ha ha
anyways just thoughts
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='59876' dateline='1411384605'I saw fulvios sealed bank bags but they are rolls
Rolls work well for bulk coins. Would you really want to individually store say double-bars, rabbit-ears, or any of the other common errors and varieties? Let alone sacks full of UNC coins? The cost, in money and time, would be horrendous!
That said, a byproduct of each roll made that way is a short Ziplock bag that can then be sealed and turned into two single-coin bags. Which can go in an album in place of a 2x2.
There's a lot you can do with a heat-sealer, free materials, some imagination and a little time. :)
Quote from: 'markn' pid='59871' dateline='1411382787'The trouble is that tooling and setup costs for a product for the very small Australian market are horrific.
OK, so lets think about this for a sec...
The key to safe storage is materials. Presentation is a marketing thing, it does nothing for the core functionality.
So step one is to source the right plastics at the right price. Oz is a horrible place to do that of course, and the falling dollar doesn't help, but a roll of film is going to produce a TON of finished products.
Then comes turning that film into products. Which becomes design, tooling and hardware. While anyone can make their own storage if they have the materials, that doesn't work commercially, does it?
Hardware is basically ultrasonic welding or impulse heat sealing, with costs anywhere from $20 to thousands. There are even instructions around on DIY solutions.
Tooling in the case of welding is a block of aluminium machined into an ultrasonic horn. And it needs to be precisely tuned, and therefore expensive.
Design is arguably the easy part, involving mostly time and math.
You've done all this of course. How much of it did you do yourselves and how much did you outsource? Was the tooling local, or did you look at cheaper places to get it done? And did you buy the hardware, or get someone to manufacture for you?
We did all the design ourselves, the tooling is all made locally, and the raw materials are all imported. There are, of course, other constraints, such as initial production run setup costs, roll width, availability of the raw material and so on and so forth. For example, it's nearly three times as much to make our pages out of a particular material simply because the roll is too wide and we have to pay for all the waste.
I spent 5 years advising people who were commercialising locally manufactured products and spent the five years before that doing the design and commercialisation for various Australian manufacturers. I understand the process and I understand that the Aussie market is so small that products that would be successful in the USA are a waste of time here. Our weakest point is our marketing, and despite that even if we achieved full Australian market penetration with our accessories it would still be nothing more than a part time income for one person.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='59920' dateline='1411459227'the Aussie market is so small that products that would be successful in the USA are a waste of time here.
Yep. And its not simply a numbers game either. There's a difference in attitudes which has a huge impact as well. I'm currently fighting this trying to raise the last of the funding we need for Bathurst, and with the yanks not interested at all cos they don't understand it, its a tough uphill slog to get any traction locally.
Still, I put some feelers out today. I was in the area, so I dropped in on a major packaging supplier and had a chat. We'll see if anything pans out.. y'never know.
QuoteWe did all the design ourselves, the tooling is all made locally, and the raw materials are all imported. There are, of course, other constraints, such as initial production run setup costs, roll width, availability of the raw material and so on and so forth. For example, it's nearly three times as much to make our pages out of a particular material simply because the roll is too wide and we have to pay for all the waste.
I totally appreciate your hard work in doing this PP and Mark and I recon if you set a target of getting 1 good bottle of wine out of this a month you would be struggling simply because of the market size and the lack of coverage that this product gets compared to the other inferior products available.
It saddens me that new collectors don't know about the PP product and still fork out/waste money an crappy PVC albums and that Dansco rubbish especially the push in type :dash1: