Australian-Coins Forum

Australian Coins, Banknotes and Exonumia => Australian Errors and Varieties => Topic started by: accumulator on August 01, 2014, 04:54:45 PM

Title: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 01, 2014, 04:54:45 PM
What do people think of this 1 cent clip ?
At first glance it looked genuine but after a closer inspection i'm not so sure.
the edges just look too rough in the clipped area & there no tapering at the rims like you see on clips.

(http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo339/appeangel07_photos/29-9-08/new%20coin%20album/10562674_1458786531066517_7384849676519007161_o1_zps11b031e7.jpg)
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: purplepennyhunter on August 01, 2014, 05:01:42 PM
what about the other side? No tapering is not a good sign.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 01, 2014, 05:07:14 PM
Sorry PP, not my coin,apcgs slabbed it today apparently MS65RD.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 01, 2014, 05:13:16 PM
Quote from: 'accumulator' pid='55985' dateline='1406878634'Sorry PP, not my coin,apcgs slabbed it today apparently MS65RD.

HeHeHe
NOW that is going to open up a "Can of Worms" :diablo::laugh2:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 01, 2014, 05:57:32 PM
It doesn't leap out as being genuine to me.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: purplepennyhunter on August 01, 2014, 06:16:07 PM
Well, from what I see there are NO factors to indicate it might genuine.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 01, 2014, 06:18:57 PM
I think that the only way this would "Cross over" at PCGS is if the graders could throw it across the Freeway at Newport Beach :laugh2:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: rickscoins_123 on August 01, 2014, 06:27:48 PM
This is definatley a shed coin
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 01, 2014, 06:33:41 PM
Yeah,The other half actually picked this one as a bit suspect, first thing i looked at was the section between the possums nose & the rim which looks too straight to me,then the roughness of the edges,then no tapering.
But i would like the see a pic of the other side to be sure to be sure lol.


here is the link to this coin, on the apcgs site

http://apcgs.com.au/attachments/1408012126.pdf
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 01, 2014, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: 'accumulator' pid='55994' dateline='1406883821'Yeah,The other half actually picked this one as a bit suspect, first thing i looked at was the section between the possums nose & the rim which looks too straight to me,then the roughness of the edges,then no tapering.
But i would like the see a pic of the other side to be sure to be sure lol.



here is the link to this coin, on the apcgs site

http://apcgs.com.au/attachments/1408012126.pdf

Going to post it up in the APCGS thread on CCF (yes I am stirring the pot).
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: purplepennyhunter on August 01, 2014, 07:14:31 PM
Such a quality pic tells us squat.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 01, 2014, 07:37:22 PM
Can't wait for Coinaus to take a "Bite" on this on in CCF :laugh2:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 01, 2014, 08:10:47 PM
I'd like to know why they don't crop "their" pics. :winkextra:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: bellyflorin on August 01, 2014, 09:48:20 PM
By the way this coin is owned by a new member here , the member  is  here to learn .:angel:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 01, 2014, 10:02:26 PM
So i guess the best thing to do is find as many genuine clip pics as we can to show what to look for.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 01, 2014, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: 'bellyflorin' pid='56013' dateline='1406895500'By the way this coin is owned by a new member here , the member  is  here to learn .:angel:

That being said , If the "New member" joined the forum at an earlier date they wouldn't have purchased/submitted this shed job.

I hope He/She is reading this thread and in future takes advantage of the Wealth of numismatic knowledge that the members on this site freely share and wont make the same mistake again.
I think this member was Royally Shafted by APCGS and "Redress" is required :ok:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 02, 2014, 08:59:27 AM
From what I can gather this coin is owned by a CCF member that has the username of "Coinaus".
it is part of a 15 coin submission to APCGS and the coin was purchased from Downies .

MMMMMMMMMMMMM
I wouldn't think Downies would list this a clip error somehow.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Swan dollar on August 02, 2014, 09:02:14 AM
Hi there.
I am new here and to coin collecting..
This 1c clip coin is mine ...
I have read all you statements and I believe you are right.. so what do i do with it now??
I am think of keeping it to remind me for future purchases
Cheers paul

No I brought it off ebay..
For about 80 dollars with postage
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 02, 2014, 09:07:47 AM
Quote from: 'Swan dollar' pid='56030' dateline='1406935934'Hi there.
I am new here and to coin collecting..
This 1c clip coin is mine ...
I have read all you statements and I believe you are right.. so what do i do with it now??
I am think of keeping it to remind me for future purchases
Cheers paul

No I brought it off ebay..
For about 80 dollars with postage

First of all
:welcome:
to the Forum.

I would ring the seller or email them and ask for a refund :ok:
Can you tell us who you bought this from?
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 02, 2014, 09:12:42 AM
Quote from: 'Swan dollar' pid='56030' dateline='1406935934'Hi there.
I am new here and to coin collecting..
This 1c clip coin is mine ...
I have read all you statements and I believe you are right.. so what do i do with it now??
I am think of keeping it to remind me for future purchases
Cheers paul


No I brought it off ebay..
For about 80 dollars with postage

Hello Paul,

Welcome to the forum.  I believe I've spoken to you on the phone.  I'd like to see bigger images of the coin before we all get too excited.  If it does prove to be a dud I'd be asking APCGS for a refund and showing them this article:

How to pick a real clipped planchet error (http://www.australian-threepence.com/blog/2012/06/how-to-determine-if-a-clipped-planchet-error-is-real.html)

Sorry that it looks like you've had a bad experience with that coin!
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: bellyflorin on August 02, 2014, 09:13:37 AM
:wavemulticolor: Swan dollar welcome to forum .
 When you get it back from  apcgs (vomit)  takes some better photos  and post on here , the expert errorheads  will give a nay or yay  . By the way here's the ebay listing http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-1989-Clipped-Planchet-ERROR-1-Cent-Coin-/151234930691?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item23364de803&nma=true&si=QewikQmb%252BU5sf264JjxeNCm9DEo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Swan dollar on August 02, 2014, 09:53:28 AM
Yes that's the one or dealer I brought this from
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: robbiegal on August 02, 2014, 10:04:29 AM
your link beyy is a much better photo of the coin
so swan (and welcome) - you bought the raw coin then submitted it to that apcgs mob for grade and slabbing?
so you have those costs on top of your original purchase ?
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Nevol on August 02, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: 'Swan dollar' pid='56030' dateline='1406935934'Hi there.
I am new here and to coin collecting..This 1c clip coin is mine ...I have read all you statements and I believe you are right.. so what do i do with it now?? I am think of keeping it to remind me for future purchases Cheers paul
Hi Paul,

:welcome: to TACF. :yahoo:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Swan dollar on August 02, 2014, 10:35:33 AM
Yes robbie gal. .
It's still at apcgs but will post better pic when I get it back...
And Thank you guys for the welcomes. .
Just a little intro ..
I have been collecting for a couple of years and still green .. and I only collect decimal coins ..
I have a few Good coin and bad coins and now may be a fake..
I started collecting 50 cent circulated coins years ago then three years ago I started getting proof coins and the last six months start buying high value coins ..
Normally have no problems but this one has tried me up..
Thank you for accepting me..
Cheers paul
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Robster on August 02, 2014, 12:06:00 PM
:welcome: Paul.!!
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Fordprefect on August 02, 2014, 12:20:51 PM
:welcome:  to the board, Paul.

The vendors images are not bad,have attached.
(Not a clip person myself, but I think you have a problem)

(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/19891cClipObv_zps6b7a56aa.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/19891cClipRev_zps090ff52c.jpg)
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Unicorn on August 02, 2014, 12:44:25 PM
:welcome: Paul.

Hoping that this one ends well for you.

It might not have Blakesley effect ......

http://www.australian-threepence.com/blog/2012/06/how-to-determine-if-a-clipped-planchet-error-is-real.html (http://www.australian-threepence.com/blog/2012/06/how-to-determine-if-a-clipped-planchet-error-is-real.html)

..... so you might have to settle for the Blakey effect!  :angel:

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/blakey.jpg)
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Swan dollar on August 02, 2014, 01:07:36 PM
Thank you unicorn for the link

Some one just pointed out to me it's not a perfect radius clip..
What I am trying to say is one cent coin would not fit in where the part is missing
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 02, 2014, 02:15:04 PM
Spot on Paul, thats what my Mrs first picked up on & the metal was too shiny around the edges she said lol , i checked it out & everything snowballed from there when i started this thread.
Sorry it looks like you've been shafted on this coin but stick around & you'll learn & vast amount from the knowledgable people here & if your not sure on anything just ask.

BTW  :welcome:  to the Forum.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 02, 2014, 04:38:08 PM
Well fellas now that we have bigger images I think it's real.  The RDM on the truncation of the portrait has slid towards the missing region of the coin (well spotted PPH), the top line of the Z is noticeably thinned due to radial metal flow, and there's noticeable tapering of the rims near the missing regions of the coin.  

As to the curve not being a pure curve, well they often are not.  You'll find that the the flat parts of the coin (the fields) flow outwards to fill the clipped area faster than the points of high relief.  Presumably because more of the metal flows to fill the die rather than flowing outwards.  And this is exactly what I am seeing here.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: autocoupler on August 02, 2014, 05:14:41 PM
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='56050' dateline='1406949265':welcome: Paul.

Hoping that this one ends well for you.

It might not have Blakesley effect ......



..... so you might have to settle for the Blakey effect!  :angel:

:laugh2: Good one uni lol :angel:.............Welcome Paul
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: nealeffendi on August 02, 2014, 05:31:19 PM
The cent has tapering on the inside edge of the rim where it meets the clip. Probably genuine based on that (could be expertly faked), grade though might be high, so could decimal experts chime in.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: trout on August 02, 2014, 06:51:40 PM
What a lot of BS.
The new images show a doctored image IMHO.
The original images (see page 1 of this thread) show irregular marks and bright highlights which are  indicative of post mint activity on this coin .
Waiting for Nancy to kick in on this :angel:
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 02, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='56061' dateline='1406971300'What a lot of BS.
The new images show a doctored image IMHO.
The original images (see page 1 of this thread) show irregular marks and bright highlights which are  indicative of post mint activity on this coin .
Waiting for Nancy to kick in on this :angel:

??? The new images are from the eBay listing.  It's a real clip.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Unicorn on August 02, 2014, 07:49:41 PM
You've got me intrigued Mark.

A comparison of the reverse is interesting.

The red arrows show what appear to be 'dings' that flatten out the high points.

But the most interesting part I can now see are the hollows that are along the top of all the left hand side whiskers. (Yellow arrows). These extend quite to a large section of each whisker and add to the theory of a lack of metal in that area. ie: There not being enough to form the rounded top of each whisker.

(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/blake1.jpg)
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 02, 2014, 08:06:02 PM
Good observations Uni. Adds support to the coin being a real error.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Swan dollar on August 02, 2014, 08:27:31 PM
Thanks guys
I am new and from this coin I have learnt heaps of tell tail signs for future purchase... the blakleys effect.. The fish tails of the lettering... the rim being bent over near the clip.. aswell as the fields flowing while under pressure in the minting press oh and the marks on the opposite side.. 
I am so glad now joining this  fourm..
Thanks guys...
Cheers paul

The right hand top whisker has definitely has been tampered with..
Just a theory the left hand side whiskers ( where the yellow arrows are ) could the deformation  be caused by this field flowing theory ( while under pressure and because there is no rim touching the collet the metal stretches into a less frictional area ) ..
I am unsure ...
Cheers paul
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Nevol on August 02, 2014, 08:48:24 PM
Quote from: 'trout' pid='56061' dateline='1406971300'What a lot of BS.
The new images show a doctored image IMHO.The original images (see page 1 of this thread) show irregular marks and bright highlights which are  indicative of post mint activity on this coin .Waiting for Nancy to kick in on this :angel:
Sorry trout, but no comment from me on this one.  What I know about clips would fit on a pin head. :angel:  I think I might have 3 at the most.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: robbiegal on August 02, 2014, 09:38:28 PM
regardless
I do not believe that APCGS have the numismatic expertise to have made a fully informed or expert opinion on such an error, let alone on grading Australian coins both pre and post decimal

they shed a cloud of distasteful shame on the good will of the numismatic community in this country and of the faith that the buying public place on purchasing packaged coins that the legitimate third party grading companies supply to the world market place

they are as fake as their copy cat packaging

Quote from: 'accumulator' pid='55981' dateline='1406877885'What do people think of this 1 cent clip ?
At first glance it looked genuine but after a closer inspection i'm not so sure.
the edges just look too rough in the clipped area & there no tapering at the rims like you see on clips.

(http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo339/appeangel07_photos/29-9-08/new%20coin%20album/10562674_1458786531066517_7384849676519007161_o1_zps11b031e7.jpg)
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: accumulator on August 02, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
Paul, I sincerely apologise for causing such a stir but i genuinely thought as most of us did that you had been had,i'm very glad that in the end you have not.

I whole heartedly agree with what Robbie has said in her previous post.
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: Swan dollar on August 02, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
The right hand top whisker has definitely has been tampered with..
Just a theory the left hand side whiskers ( where the yellow arrows are ) could the deformation  be caused by this field flowing theory ( while under pressure and because there is no rim touching the collet the metal stretches into a less frictional area ) ..
I am unsure ...
Cheers paul
Title: RE: Genuine ?
Post by: markn on August 03, 2014, 07:07:53 AM
Quote from: 'accumulator' pid='56071' dateline='1406981968'Paul, I sincerely apologise for causing such a stir but i genuinely thought as most of us did that you had been had,i'm very glad that in the end you have not.

I whole heartedly agree with what Robbie has said in her previous post.

I am happy that a new member hasn't been diddled with a dud coin.  I had a my mis-givings with it too.  And I think Robbie summarised the core of the matter here better than I've seen anyone do it.