SO, HOW MANY 1922 DATE WIDTHS ARE THERE ANYWAY?
The 1922 penny having a recorded mintage of 12,697,000 is responsible for quite an array of varieties. This should be no surprise given the numbers circulated, with many being identified and described by various authors over the years. Apart from the different London and Indian die obverses, just about all variations revolve around the positioning of the date numerals in relation to one another, as well as the rim dentils below. Considering the loss of population through natural attrition, as well as the recall of old currency at the dawn of decimalisation and since then, the 1922 penny remains reasonably plentiful and can be a relatively cheap source of enjoyment for the pre decimal collector. However, this not so revered member of our pre decimal coinage, will present a stiff challenge to those in search of the more scarce varieties, particularly in higher grade.
My interest in the 1922 penny varieties heightened when one day while looking closely at what I thought to be a wide date penny, things weren't as they seemed. In fact, the date width proved to be one full dentil pitch narrower than the widest published wide date that I was aware of, even though it bore the characteristic upright 9 that would normally be associated with the wide date varieties.
Actually, the date width was narrower than for any other I knew of, including the left tilted 9 common width date variety. So after stumbling upon this, and feeling very happy that just maybe one obscure piece of the puzzle was in place, my collecting concentrated on this so called upright 9 narrow date variety which proved to be reasonably elusive. After a further year or two, seven more examples were sighted, making it eight narrow dates in total. Then it happened again, up popped what I thought to be another narrow date, instead, this latest coin whilst displaying the upright 9 had a date width equal to the common left tilted 9 variety, which is half a dentil wider than the narrow date. I refer to this coin as the upright 9 common width date variety. The rims always present clean and square, particularly on the obverse side where the strike is always well centred. Here was yet another piece of puzzle that may or may not have been sighted and recorded previously. Over a total time span of nine years, there were just nine upright 9 common width date coins sighted, unfortunately none in better grade than good fine. Thirty upright 9 narrow date coins were sighted for the same period.
Descriptions pertaining to such characteristics as described above are sometimes unclear and difficult to confirm, and problems can be experienced when attempting to rationalise or understand some of the information concerning the orientation and position of the date numerals. Apart from the obviously pronounced left tilted 9 of the more common variety, references to normal 9, upright 9, right tilted 9 or close 2's just to name a few, can appear vague and confusing if not accompanied by clear and concise visual confirmation.
Using a combination of available information, and that of my own delving, the aim here is to compile a record of known varieties that will provide a written description outlining a trusted method of identification correlating with visual evidence.
GROUP 1, Comprises the upright 9 narrow date coins Fig's. 9-10-11-12, where the overall width of the date is the narrowest for all groups. There were four variations identified / confirmed within this group, all of which display the closest spacing between the 2's for all groups. All have London obverses and display flat base lettering on the reverse. All coins for this group may be considered very scarce. 30 examples sighted over a nine year span.
GROUP 2, Comprises the left tilted 9 common width date Fig's. 1 & 8, with either London or Calcutta obverse Fig's. 2 & 3. Both display curved or flat base lettering in the reverse legend Fig's. 4 & 5, meaning four variations within this group. It appears the flat base lettering is less common. In his variety writings, Fred Lever suggests the 9 is level with the other date numerals on both London and Calcutta curved base letter varieties, and is higher for the flat base letter coins. To be honest I have difficulty coming to grips with this, sometimes the levels can appear as Fred says but on other occasions not so. Maybe it's a cycle of the moon thing ha, ha but having not put nearly enough time into this group I'm happy to go with Fred.
Also included in this group is the Upright 9 common width date Fig's. 6 & 13. Displays the London obverse with flat base lettering on the reverse. In my opinion, the upright 9 incorporated within this common width date dictates that this coin may be considered extremely scarce. Just nine examples sighted over a nine year span, none being found in a grade higher than good fine.
GROUP 3, Comprises the upright 9 wide date coins Fig's. 14-15-16, three variations were identified / confirmed, all displaying the London obverse and flat base lettering on the reverse. One displays a spike like extension from the tail of the 9. All coins from this group can be considered scarce.
GROUP 4, Comprises the upright 9 extra wide date coins Fig's. 17 & 18. Two variations were confirmed, both display the London obverse, flat base lettering on the reverse and a lower positioned 9. One also displays a spike like extension from the tail of the 9 Fig. 18. Coins from this group can be considered scarce.
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The varieties that owe their existence to die damage or malfunction of the minting process have been omitted, but that's not to say they're not a valid collecting theme, just not here with the date varieties except for the odd example where a date numeral displays a spur or spike. Having said this, die cracks, dots and cuds can and have been used as die identification markers. Also, an exception was made regarding the curved base lettering on the reverse of the left tilted 9 coins. From my readings it has been suggested that this effect is the result of insufficient metal flow not completely filling the die. I do admit to being pretty much in the dark on this, anyhow the irony here being the supposed non error flat base lettering appears to be less common.
As mentioned previously, the majority of variance in the 1922 penny revolves around the orientation and position of the date numerals. Two critical tools or points of reference necessary for identifying these differences are the rim dentils below the date numerals, as well as imaginary lines of reference taken from predetermined points on the coin. These imaginary lines of reference will aid in determining the position of the 9 and both 2's in relation to one another and the rim dentils below.
Determining alignment of the 9, Fig. 7.
The concept of using reference lines to determine the orientation of the 9 was adopted in a varied form taken from Mike Locke's Internet article on Australian Penny and Halfpenny varieties. For reference line 1, firstly locate the rim dentil directly above the centre of "H" in COMMONWEALTH where it meets the rim, this point was chosen simply because it is the furthermost point from the subject and so allowing for a minimum of error. From this point, align a small straight edge ( something like a business card, and under magnification for yours truly ) between this point and the left most edge of the bowl of the 9, taking note at which point it intersects the rim dentils below i.e. left edge, left of centre, centre, right of centre, right edge or between dentils. Six possible points of reference in all. For reference line 2, repeat the process, this time aligning the straight edge with the left most tip of the tail on the 9. These two points of intersection with the rim dentils below, provide a legitimate reference for recording the position of the 9 in relation to the distance from the 1, as well as degree of rotation. In the circumstance where any 9 exhibits a spike protruding from the tip of the tail, the line of reference remains at where the normal tail end would be.
Unlike the obvious left tilted 9 variety (four coins) from group 2 where the angle remains constant, there is some variance in the angle of the upright 9 on the fifth member of this group, as well as between groups 1, 3, and 4, and is more difficult to differentiate at first glance. Rather than be left to the imagination in the absence of a definitive description, these will be referred to as upright 9 only. All 9's from each group will be assigned a relevant code accounting for position and degree of rotation as determined by the two reference lines.
Having progressed this far, a method of numbering the rim dentils below the date numerals needed to be adopted. Luckily the location of numeral 1 puts it centrally between two dentils and can be seen as a common point of reference, and is the same for all versions of the 1922 penny. Therefore, if an imaginary line was drawn lengthways down through the centre of the 1, the dentil to the immediate right of this line will be known as dentil #1 and so on. Mike Locke also used this method. If you have access to a camera with macro function, a computer and printer, it may be easier to do the numeral alignments on a printed image.
Determining alignment of both 2's, Fig. 7.
To accurately identify the position of both 2's, a line is taken from the coins centre, past the left most edge of the foot on each 2, taking note at which point it intersects the rim dentils below. I find the left edge is the best and most accurate point on the 2 when doing these alignments. The angular right edge of the foot is way too cumbersome to achieve reliable alignments in my opinion.
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When looking at coins from all groups, the position of the second 2 is the key. Based on all examples identified so far, a quick check on the alignment between the left edge of the foot on the second 2 and the dentil below is all that's required for confirmation of which group the coin belongs.
For group 1 coins, the second 2 aligns with the left edge of dentil fifteen. (Upright 9) Fig's 9-10-11-12.
For group 2 coins, the second 2 aligns with the centre of dentil fifteen. (Common left tilted 9) Fig's 1 & 8. (Upright 9) Fig's 6 & 13.
For group 3 coins, the second 2 aligns with the right edge of dentil fifteen. (Upright 9) Fig's 14-15-16.
For group 4 coins, the second 2 aligns with the left edge of dentil sixteen. ( Upright 9) Fig's 17 & 18.
Following on from here, let's look at the complete list of varieties, showing how the various lines of reference as described previously are able to provide an effective code capable of identifying the subtle differences between or amongst any group.
Group 1.
Owing to the differing positions of the 9 in this group as well as the subtleties involved, it was decided
to identify any die markers unique to each coin that could aid in the confirmation process, but limited to a small number of examples.
#1. London obverse, reverse flat base letters, upright 9 narrow date, spur at left edge of foot on first 2. (Fig. 9. Alignments)
Code: LF-L4+RC4-L9-L15. Note spur on left edge of foot on first 2, hence L9. Also, closest 2's for all groups.
Die Markers – (1) Fig.9a. Faintest die crack extending upwards at 45 degrees from bottom of right leg of "W" in COMMONWEALTH.
(2) Fig.9b. Tiny dot in front of foot on "I" of IMP. (3) Fig.9b. Die polish marks after "P" of IMP.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Article_pic_9.JPG)(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Article_pic_9a.JPG)(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Article_pic_9b.JPG)
#2. London obverse, reverse flat base letters, upright 9 narrow date. (Fig. 10. Alignments)
Code: LF-L4+RC4-C9-L15. Note no spur on first 2, hence change of code to C9. Also, closest 2's for all groups.
Die Markers – (1) Fig.10a. Raised / bulged area in crown just above top outer point of right arm on cross.
(2)* Fig.10b. Dot after "Y" of PENNY (mid. way up).
* Later striking. These examples all display the bulge / cud in crown.
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#3. London obverse, reverse flat base letters, upright 9 narrow date. (Fig. 11. alignments)
Code: LF-LC4+LC4- C9-L15. Note, both lines of reference for 9 aligned at LC4. Also, closest 2's for all
groups, and no spur on first 2.
Die Markers – (1) Fig.11a. Die crack across base of both 2's developing and extending in both directions outwards and down to the right
towards the rim. (2) Fig.11b. Faint die cracks originating from "N" in COMMONWEALTH and extending toward inner circle.
(3) Fig.11c. Large die chip / Cud below "R" of BRITT. (4) Fig.11d. Dots at "G" in GEORGIVS on rim side.
(5) Fig.11d. Diagonal bar above left stroke of "V" in GEORGIVS.
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#4. London obverse, reverse flat base letters, upright 9 narrow date. (Fig. 12. Alignments)
Code: LF-C4+RC4-C9-L15. Same as for coin #7, except #1 reference line is at C4. Also, closest 2's for all
groups, and no spur on first 2.
Die Markers – (1) Fig.12a. Faint dot half way to rim and midway between "F" and "D" obverse legend, (2) Fig.12a. Dot midway, between and
at top of "I N" in IND, (3) Fig. 12a. Flaw developing from top centre of "D" in FD, (4) Fig.12a. Diagonal die crack through "ND" of IND to "I" of IMP.
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Group 2.
#1. London obverse, reverse curved base letters, left tilted 9 common width date. (Fig. 8. Alignments)
Code: LC-L4+L5-C9-C15.
The 9 is so obviously tilted to the left making it easily recognisable without the use of reference lines.
However, for the sake of the exercise it can be seen that reference line #1 passes the left edge of the bowl on the 9 and aligns with the left edge of dentil 4. Reference line #2 passes the left most edge of the tail on the 9 and aligns with the left edge of dentil 5, written as L4+L5. Now add a prefix indicating London obverse with reverse curved base lettering, written as LC-L4+L5. It can also be seen the left side of the foot on each 2 aligns with the centre of the 9th and 15th dentils respectively, written as C9-C15.
#2. London obverse, reverse flat base letters, left tilted 9 common width date. (Fig. 8. Alignments)
Code: LF-L4+L5-C9-C15.
All alignments the same. Only change is flat base lettering.
#3. Calcutta obverse, reverse curved base letters, left tilted 9 common width date. (Fig. 8. Alignments)
Code: CC-L4+L5-C9-C15.
All alignments the same. Only change is Calcutta obverse and curved base lettering.
#4. Calcutta obverse, reverse flat base letters, left tilted 9 common width date. (Fig.8. Alignments)
Code: CF-L4+L5-C9-C15.
All alignments the same. Only change is flat base lettering.
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#5. London obverse, reverse flat base lettering, upright 9 common width date. (Fig. 13. Alignments)
Code: LF-C4+RC4-RC9-C15. Whilst the overall date width is the same as for all other coins in this group, it's obvious the
position of the 9 and first 2 has altered. It can be seen that reference line #1 passes the left edge of the
bowl on the 9 and aligns with the centre of dentil 4. Reference line #2 passes the left most edge of the
tail on the 9 and aligns right of centre at dentil 4. Written as LF-C4+RC4 when prefix for London
obverse and flat base lettering is included. The left side of the foot on each 2 aligns right of centre at
dentil 9 and at centre of dentil 15 respectively, written as RC9-C15.
Note the almost perfectly centred and clean rims, vastly superior to all other Penny striking's / varieties for this year.
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Group 3.
#1. London obverse, reverse flat base lettering, upright 9 wide date. (Fig. 14. Alignments)
Code: LF-RC4+R4-L10-R15. Overall date width is greater than first three groups.
#2. London obverse, reverse flat base lettering, upright 9 wide date. (Fig. 15. Alignments)
Code: LF-RC4+R4-9/10-R15. Note 9/10, indicates the first 2 aligns centrally between dentils 9 & 10.
#3. London obverse, reverse flat base lettering, upright 9 wide date, spike protruding from tail of 9. (Fig. 16. Alignments)
Code: LF-RC4+R4S-9/10-R15. Note R4S, indicates spike on tail of 9. Otherwise same as coin #2.
N.B. At this point, have been unable to locate an example with #1 alignments that displays a spike on the 9.
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Group 4.
#1. London obverse, reverse flat base lettering, upright 9 extra wide date. (Fig. 17. Alignments)
Code: LF-LR4+4/5-L10-L16. Note LR4+4/5, indicates LOW 9 and reference line #2 centrally aligned between dentils 4 and 5. Overall date width is greater than for all groups.
#2. London obverse, reverse flat base lettering, upright 9 extra wide date, spike protruding from tail of 9. (Fig. 18. Alignments)
Code: LF-LR4+L5S-L10-L16. Note L5S, indicates spike on tail of 9.
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For many, the obvious question to be asked revolves around an estimation of remaining quantities for each variety identified. From an original mintage of 12,697,000 it's difficult to know exactly how many survived the recalls since the conversion to decimal currency in 1966 as well as those lost in circulation or hoarded by collectors etc. For no other reason than having a faint recollection of 5% being mentioned somewhere as a plausible figure for remaining pre decimal coinage, lets run with that. This would leave a total remaining mintage of approximately 635,000 pennies for 1922. From my readings it seems to be generally accepted that the ratio of Calcutta to London obverse is 20 percent and 80 percent respectively. This would indicate that 127,000 remain for Calcutta and 508,000 for London, which sure is a lot of copper sitting around going green.
My early endeavours directed at the 1922 penny concentrated on the known wide and extra wide dates, for which there was excellent information available. I was aware of the common left tilted 9 coins and the existence of both London and Indian obverses, unfortunately my appreciation of the reverse curved and flat base lettering was rather challenged at this point in time, as was my knowledge of the more subtle differences in attitude of some date numerals. There was however a mental note indicating the possibility of one scarce coin, this being the upright 9 narrow date, to where my main focus was gradually diverting (no sighting of the scarcer upright 9 common width date coin had occurred at this point). Up until now a regime of recording information had not been followed, but as it happens, I was lucky enough to stumble upon a geographically unbiased hoard of 390 pennies sourced from many regions around the country, and from this sample a record of all varieties known so far was compiled.
The following is a record taken from the hoard sample.
Group 1
London obv. Upright 9 narrow date x 2 = .51%.
Group 2
Calcutta obv. Left tilted 9 common width date x 67 = 17.8%.
London obv. Left tilted 9 common width date x 309 = 79.23%.
London obv. Upright 9 common width date x Nil = 0%.
Group 3
London obv. Upright 9 wide date x 4 = 1.02%.
London obv. Upright spike tail 9 wide date x 3 = .77%.
Group 4
London obv. Upright 9 extra wide date x 2 = .51%.
London obv. Upright spike 9 extra wide date x 3 = .77%.
Not being content to fully rest with the data that came from the hoard, the option of using ebay listings as a source came to mind. After all, by this stage I had religiously searched ebay mostly every day for two years or more in the hunt for 1922 varieties, with my focus now squarely on group 1, of which six had been sighted. Keeping in mind though, at this point the upright 9 coin from group 2 was unknown to me, and as indicated previously, indifference toward the curved and flat base lettering of the left tilted varieties from group 2, as well as the subtleties of some date numerals within group 1, meant that this information was omitted from both surveys.
From mid May 2007 to late August 2007 a log was kept, listing the totals for each variety known by me, the overall number of coins being 337, a record of which is as follows.
Group 1
London obv. Upright 9 narrow date x 2 = .59%
Group 2
Calcutta obv. Left tilted 9 common width date x 61 = 18.1%
London obv. Left tilted 9 common width date x 230 = 68.25%
London obv. Upright 9 common width date x Nil = 0%
Group 3
London obv. Upright 9 wide date x 19 = 5.64%
London obv. Upright spike tail 9 wide date x 8 = 2.38%
Group 4
London obv. Upright 9 extra wide date x 11 = 3.26%
London obv. Upright spike 9 extra wide date x 6 = 1.78%
Whilst taking care not to include any relisted items, I concede it's possible a miniscule number may have slipped the net during the data collection period. Also, it has to be recognised that the ebay figures may be biased, particularly against the better known or scarce varieties such as the wide and extra wide dates, because these coins are more likely to be sourced and listed by sellers. It must also be said the left tilted 9 London variety from group 2 experienced an increase in scarcity based on the ebay sample. However, this is understandable and should be duly discounted as these very much abundant coins are less likely to be sourced and listed by sellers. Furthermore, this lower percentage of Londons from group 2 is seen to be balanced out by the increase of upright Londons in groups 3 and 4. For instance, when all London obverses from all groups are combined, the overall percentage is seen to be 81.9% compared to 82.8% for the hoard sample. So in the context of percentages based on overall numbers, the total Londons from both surveys just about even out in the end, not that it means a great deal other than to reinforce the theory that London obverses make up about 80% of the mintage.
By far though, the most important piece of information to take from this exercise is a perceived extreme scarcity of the upright 9 common width date coin from group 2. The glaring omission of this coin from both survey samples, as well as the small number found over a long time span, must indeed confirm an extreme scarceness. On the rare occasions they do surface, these coins appear to be confused with the two wide date varieties, it being my experience to always see them described as such by ebay sellers presumably because of the upright 9, and I suspect this was the case here. Dealers too appear not to know or greatly care, and would never describe one as anything but a wide date, if at all. Moving forward to the present day, and as previously stated, a total of just nine examples were sighted over a nine year period.
Whilst not having access to multiple large hoards of coins apart from the one mentioned, the vast majority being derived from a disciplined ebay regime with very few days being missed over this nine year period. This was also supplemented with visits to dealers and coin shows.
In an attempt to arrive at a plausible figure that goes some way to indicating a rough estimate of remaining population for the upright 9 common width date penny, the number found over the nine year period was divided into a perceived overall total number of London obverse coins that would have been viewed in that time. So, if we think of the 268 London obverse coins viewed over the fourteen week period of the ebay survey as an average rule of thumb, then apply it to the whole of the nine year period, it could be said that approximately 9,000 London obverse coins would have been viewed over this time. When divided by the total number of upright 9 common width date coins sighted, in this case nine, we arrive at an approximate estimated occurrence of 1 in 1000. When applied to the guesstimated overall remaining London obverse mintage of 508,000, it could be said an approximate remaining population of around 500 coins exist for this "upright 9 common width date" variety of the 1922 penny.
The figures relating to the upright 9 narrow date coins from group 1 are also interesting, with the degree of scarcity remaining very much the same when compared to those from the hoard sample. Thinking about this, the ebay figure for this coin was almost certainly negatively biased, they also appear not to be recognised by many, and always listed as one of the wide date varieties by sellers, again presumably because of the upright 9. As mentioned previously, thirty examples were sighted over a period of about 9 years, and based on the formula used for the upright 9 common width date coin from group 2, the estimated rate of occurrence for the group 1 coins may be 1 in 300 with a remaining total population of approximately 1700 coins.
In hindsight, even though variances in date numeral positioning from group 1 hadn't been properly explored at the time of both surveys, the fact is these coins were constantly on the radar during the nine year collection period. This means the delayed identification and confirmation of these variances had no negative effect on the integrity of the data, allowing a rate of occurrence for each to be arrived at using the same formula. As can be seen, the scarcity increases dramatically when looked at individually.
#1. Examples sighted 7. Rate of occurrence 1 in 1300. Remaining approximate population 400.
#2. Examples sighted 4. Rate of occurrence 1 in 2250. Remaining approximate population 250.
#3. Examples sighted 6. Rate of occurrence 1 in 1500. Remaining approximate population 350.
#4. Examples sighted 13. Rate of occurrence 1 in 700. Remaining approximate population 750.
The group 3 and 4 coins also indicate a certain scarcity, particularly when looking at the percentages from the hoard sample. As mentioned previously, the ebay sample shows a marked increase in availability for these two groups, no doubt due to seller bias. Unfortunately, I must admit to being consumed with the upright 9 coins in groups 1 and 2 from a reasonably early stage, therefore no record is available for the variances or overall numbers sighted for groups 3 and 4 over the nine year period. Whilst scarce, I suspect they are more common than the upright 9 coins from group 1 and the single example from group 2.
The thing is though, for many years now collectors and sellers have been syphoning the known wide date varieties from a larger pool out there in hoarder land and compressing these coins into a much smaller market pool.
It's in this smaller pool that we find the upright 9 coins from Group 1 as well as the single example from group 2, that were in the main unknowingly scooped from the larger pool by the noodlers who wrongly thought them to be wide dates. When the population numbers are crunched, even though the rate of occurrence is low, it's not truly representative of their scarceness. I suspect if it was possible to calculate the rate of occurrence as these coins sat in the larger hoarder pool, there would be a significant increase in scarcity when compared to figures derived from the smaller market pool. In my opinion and at the risk of stating the obvious, when population figures for known varieties are based solely on coins advertised for sale, a gross understatement of true scarceness must surely be the result.
The object of this exercise has been to put forward a clear alternative for identifying the known and not so known varieties of the 1922 penny. Some of the variances can be seen as being very subtle, but never the less, each one represents a unique die being used in the minting process. Being able to highlight the upright 9 coins from group 1 as well as the single example from group 2 in particular, and offer a reliable method of identification, will I believe widen the scope for collectors interested in the 1922 penny. However, it must be understood the population estimates are ball park at best, and shouldn't be relied upon as absolute fact.
Having said this, I do believe anyone who sets out to track down examples of the upright 9 from group 1 or the single example from group 2, particularly in higher grades, will soon understand the challenge in front of them. Just to add fuel for inspiration, I do remember a UNC coin from group 1 selling for $400 at a Nobles auction about three years ago. Damn, I missed it. Happy collecting.
The following material being referenced over a period of some years. The Australia Coin Forum, Ian McConnelly's CAB article March 2006 page 10 on London and Calcutta obverses, Fred Levers book on Australia's pre decimal varieties, Jon Saxton's Internet articles on Australian pennies, Mike Locke's internet article on Australian pennies, Surjit Wadhwa CAB articles on 1922 penny overdate, December 2005 page 39, and June 2006 page 38.
What a fantastic article, congratulations.....well done.
Nicely done, excellent images.
A few minor points, define eBay and define daily searches. You might have checked eBay (.au) but I'll bet that you didn't check all the foreign eBays. I picked up my best wide date that way. Did you check daily for newly available coins or newly listed coins? Not infrequently a newly listed coin won't show up unless you search completed listings as well as the best B.I.N bargains can be listed and sold within an hour. For bargains it is often a scarce variety that the seller didn't factor in to his price and that will cause many wide dates to go quickly.
Shouldn't your posting also be placed in the ACF coin wiki section?
Barry and Neil, Thanks for the positive comments, much appreciated.
The ebay survey was conducted in world mode for items for sale as well as completed listings, every day. When in world mode I did notice most of the international listings were from the US, with a lesser number from europe. But it really didn't matter, as it was any pool that I was interested in, so long as the same process was followed every day.
As for posting in the wiki section, I've only just began to get my head around camera's / supporting programs / internet etc.:dodgy: It's time I returned to shallow water :angel: Although, I did think wiki was mainly for posts of abrieviated content. But if that's where it should be I'm happy for someone to move it.
Should there be a section for research posts. I know there are members out there who could post some really interesting stuff.
awesome report....
but am not going to read it ... way toooo much info for me
nice to know the info is available here when i do need it
thanks for your effort and to share
A lot of effort went into that but aren't people really nit picking when the alignment of letters and numbers are microscopic points different or is that what coin collecting is all about?
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='55866' dateline='1406681763'A lot of effort went into that but aren't people really nit picking when the alignment of letters and numbers are microscopic points different or is that what coin collecting is all about?
Those "minor points" of numeral alignment show the techniques (dies, hubs, master dies,derivative dies etc) used by the mints and act as fingerprints of where and when a coin was minted (Perth or Melb 1922... or Shanghai 2013).
Knowledge is important to hard core collectors. It is even pleasurable to read this stuff for us.
I second that, my desk is full of 22's, what a great way to spend a cold day.!
The only downside is having to scroll back and forth between the images but if I find a 'rare' one surely it is worthwhile.! :yahoo:
I meant no dishonour to those who are really into dies/pairings etc.
As it is said, knowledge is everything.
What a great reference Auto. A real credit to you.
(I'm not game to get my 22s out yet ..... but it will happen!).
Nice work autocoupler.
Autocoupler, I am not normally a person that worries about varieties, but after seeing all the work you went to, to present this info, I just had to go back to my, one and only, 1922 penny. Seems I have the common garden variety. Is this minted in London then?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10113/OMN_close_up_-_London.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10113/9_left_tilted.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10113/Curved_Base_Lettering.JPG)
Quote from: 'Triggersmob' pid='56062' dateline='1406971615'Autocoupler, I am not normally a person that worries about varieties, but after seeing all the work you went to, to present this info, I just had to go back to my, one and only, 1922 penny. Seems I have the common garden variety. Is this minted in London then?
Steve,
Your 1d is most likely Melbourne Mint, struck with
the "English" obverse paired with Curved Base Font Reverse.
Flat based lettering, English obverse, 'tit' on 9. filled die (top scroll).
(http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o787/robster836/008_zpsf9c0fc95.jpg)
(http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o787/robster836/004_zps394a6390.jpg)
"Slightly more confused today than yesterday. lol. I would agree from my samples (approx. 40) there is 3 versions of reverse lettering. Understand how much work you have put in Autocoupler. :shok:
"Minted in London" is not correct Autocoupler.The London in London dies refers to where the master die was first used (in this case in London for the 1911 penny). Both Melbourne and Perth used the London dies and Perth also used the Indian.
Quote from: 'Robster' pid='56074' dateline='1406985386'Flat based lettering, English obverse, 'tit' on 9. filled die (top scroll).
"Slightly more confused today than yesterday. lol. I would agree from my samples (approx. 40) there is 3 versions of reverse lettering. Understand how much work you have put in Autocoupler. :shok:
Robster, Your coin is a Wide date from group 3. The alignments for both 2's should radiate from the centre of the coin. If you look at your large image of the reverse it's easier to see the alignment of the first 2 is between dentils 9 and 10. The alignment for the second 2 is at right edge of dentil 15.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='56076' dateline='1406998067'"Minted in London" is not correct Autocoupler.The London in London dies refers to where the master die was first used (in this case in London for the 1911 penny). Both Melbourne and Perth used the London dies and Perth also used the Indian.
Neal, I'll leave the die history to you guys, but I didn't say anything about being minted in London. I did refer to dies as being London or Indian.
Thanks again everyone for your positive comments :angel:
Oops, I was replying to Trigger' when I accidentally typed your handle. Need a blonde emoticon for this.
Thanks for the reply, Nealeffendi.
Have been doing some research on the Group 2 coins that I pretty much glossed over before, this group comprising about 95% of the overall mintage for 1922 pennies. At this point just concentrating on the London obverse coin with flat base lettering on the reverse (LF-L4+L5-C9-C15 ), which is believed to account for roughly 4% of Group 2 coins, making it the scarcest for this group.
Just using the letters E and L in commonwEaLth and L in austraLia as a reference, and must admit it's difficult to differentiate between flat and curved as the amount of curvature can vary considerably from one coin to the next. Having settled on two suspects that appeared to be the truest examples of flat base lettering, I then looked for die markers in the hope of confirming both coins were from the same dies.
As it turned out both coins display different die markers, so I'm hoping someone ( like Neal ) :angel: may be able to authenticate either of the coins below as genuine flat base lettering.
Hope I haven't been naughty as both pics are not mine, although I did purchase both coins. :dodgy:
Cud below left side of foot on "F" of OF, Dot to left of top scroll.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_fbl_1_rev_.jpg)
Diagonal die crack through "E" of GEORG
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_fbl_1_obv.jpg)
Diagonal die crack through 22 of date
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_FBL_rev_2.jpg)
Cud / raised line below "E" of GEORG
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_penny_obv_2_FBL.jpg)
Yes, both are 1922 FBL English with the standard 9.
The line 22 variety is mostly found as a light spur (12 of 14 coins in my sample) and the slag F variety is the more common and is also mostly as a spur (33 of 40 coins in my sample).
For the slag F have a look at the obverse, you should find a tiny slag/dot on the lower inside of the top dot after MN:
Also a tiny dot on the upper left leg of V in SV
There is another die pair for you to find,it has a dot inside the loop towards the left of O in OF and another between the tops of CO; this is a rare variety and I only have 5 of them (all non spurs). Happy hunting.
Thanks Neal, as usual you're a wealth of knowledge. Very fortunate to be able to run this stuff bye You.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='64684' dateline='1420100750'There is another die pair for you to find,it has a dot inside the loop towards the left of O in OF and another between the tops of CO; this is a rare variety and I only have 5 of them (all non spurs). Happy hunting.
Back to You Neal. With reference to your description above, could this coin be an example? Unfortunately the focus isn't the best in the area of the "O" in OF damn it, but couldn't put up a better pic, it's not mine.
Thanks in advance
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_London_penny_FBL.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Penny_London_obverse_FBL.jpg)
What about a die crack going through the top of the date?
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/22%20crack_zpsxbrqr9i4.jpg)(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/22%20crack1_zpsodu3fazw.jpg)
My kind of coin.!! :ok:
Nice Die Crack! :drooling:
This is wierd. Apart from the orange peel surfaces, there is trench like ghosting of the lettering in the reverse legend, particularly of the date (not very pronounced in the pics) and "COMMONWEALTH", also around the left and upper outer edge of the inner circle, and most of the lettering has raised edges. Funny things going on with the beads in the inner circle as well. What makes it all the more interesting is that the coin is the second rarest of all the 1922 pennies, being a Group 1 narrow date, LF-C4+RC4-C9-L15. :yahoo:
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2891.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2892.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2893.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/IMG_2894.JPG)
I have some a bit similar
i'll take some pics and post up
Looks like it had an acid bath
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='75528' dateline='1436682014'Looks like it had an acid bath
Yes, it's been through some kind of cleaning process for sure.
Harking back to post #19 by auto, description of image with "Cud / raised line below "E" of GEORG", I think this is meant to be above "E" of GEORG", not below. :acute:
hehehehe you are correct Nevol. :wavemulticolor:
hummm Auto
mine looks nothing like it! ... but then again ...
photo on it\s way
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10035/P7130082.JPG)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10035/P7130094.JPG)
I reckon the 1927 is the one RG. Orange peel surfaces, and ghosting of " LTH OF AUSTR ", as well as ghosting at the outer edge of the inner circle on the right side. But no raised edges of the lettering though.
Darn it meant to post the 22. Will pop up a pic tonight but I have them together A they look similar
the letters penny & the bottom scroll are índented' (as if pushed into the planchet) but the overall surface is Ok
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10035/P7130084_-_Copy.JPG)
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75619' dateline='1436860842'the letters penny & the bottom scroll are índented' (as if pushed into the planchet) but the overall surface is Ok
I'm thinking what causes that moat effect around the edges of the lettering?
:idea: Jap POW's with little chisels at the Cowra camp during WW2? :blush: Sorry, couldn't help it :angel:
my dealers says that it is reduced strike pressure
either set up or to preserve the life of the die
Thanks RG, good to know
Nice orange peel and moting effect
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/22a.JPG)
So it is steve. I remember you posting that coin a while back, think you were intending to buy and send it off for grading. Did you get a grade from the TPG's?
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='75654' dateline='1436933926'So it is steve. I remember you posting that coin a while back, think you were intending to buy and send it off for grading. Did you get a grade from the TPG's?
I'm surprised it did so well with everything going on with the coin.It also has a
small section shaved off from the obverse rim at about 11 o'clock
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/%2031353944
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='75655' dateline='1436934387'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='75654' dateline='1436933926'So it is steve. I remember you posting that coin a while back, think you were intending to buy and send it off for grading. Did you get a grade from the TPG's?
I'm surprised it did so well with everything going on with the coin.It also has a
small section shaved off from the obverse rim at about 11 o'clock
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/%2031353944
Looks like you "Missed out" on the new true view stuff Mate :dash1:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='75664' dateline='1436957201'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='75655' dateline='1436934387'Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='75654' dateline='1436933926'So it is steve. I remember you posting that coin a while back, think you were intending to buy and send it off for grading. Did you get a grade from the TPG's?
I'm surprised it did so well with everything going on with the coin.It also has a
small section shaved off from the obverse rim at about 11 o'clock
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/%2031353944
Looks like you "Missed out" on the new true view stuff Mate :dash1:
Got that one back last year
OMG
that reverse pic is terrible
surly they could tidy up the edge and crop
lazy bastards .... did I say that?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='75667' dateline='1436959345'OMG
that reverse pic is terrible
surly they could tidy up the edge and crop
lazy bastards .... did I say that?
It gives the impression that the coin is smaller on one side
I would think that at least 10% of all the coins if have had graded "secure" in the past came with crappy /no images.
The new system now seems to have addressed that issue :good:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='55757' dateline='1406623020'SO, HOW MANY 1922 DATE WIDTHS ARE THERE ANYWAY?
Being retired is just great, but you finish up with too much time on your hands. Hehe, just loving it :yahoo: Anyhow, in relation to this thread that kicked off many moons ago, I felt it was time to put together something that didn't ramble on so I opened up a 1922 Penny variety album in my photo gallery for those who wished to have a bo peep. :)
This is a good example of one of the very scarce (not that too many care:angel:) narrow date coins from group 1. This is not my coin btw, just found it while ebay surfing, pity about that little dash of obverse verdigris
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1922-Australian-KGV-PENNY-RARE-8-Pearls-Centre-Diamond-1331-refer-notes-/322182119982?hash=item4b038d022e:g:EsMAAOSw-4BXb7uT
Thanks Auto. :good:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='92084' dateline='1467776300'This is a good example of one of the very scarce (not that too many care:angel:) narrow date coins from group 3. This is not my coin btw, just found it while ebay surfing, pity about that little dash of obverse verdigris
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1922-Australian-KGV-PENNY-RARE-8-Pearls-Centre-Diamond-1331-refer-notes-/322182119982?hash=item4b038d022e:g:EsMAAOSw-4BXb7uT
With a coin like this (potentially slab-worthy) does anyone think that the dash of verdigris can be cleaned/stabilized long term or will it regrow?
I wish I understood autocoupler's research better. Fair dues to the seller for pointing out the problem.
(http://i.imgur.com/wix2XS8.jpg)
i think it is a lovely grade and was tempted
but fortunately the verdigris is photographed nicely ..........................
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='92093' dateline='1467784923'With a coin like this (potentially slab-worthy) does anyone think that the dash of verdigris can be cleaned/stabilized long term or will it regrow?
IMHO it's a gamble at best, but sometimes if the growth hasn't gone crusty a good soak in olive oil can break it down, and on occasions with the help of a wooden probe. If you're lucky the toning may not have been breached, but what you don't want to see is a crust that is pale green trending to white in colour, in that event it's almost certain the parent metal will be eaten into. On this coin the larger growth area just above the regalia is a richer green in colour, almost looks damp which is a promising sign in my experience, although at times the smaller spots here and there that aren't fully visible in a pic can turn out to be the biggest issue.
In my experience, if the contamination is completely removed and the coin is put through a process of stabilisation, the verdigris will not return. But it's always a gamble.
Hi autocoupler, thanks again for your article.
Are these the correct links for Mike Locke's internet article on Australian pennies?
http://users.scronline.com/lockem/
http://users.scronline.com/lockem/aussie.txt
Cheers Mate, glad you got something out of it. That link to Mike Locke's site is all I know of. :)
autocoupler wrote:
"I remember you were interested in the 1922 penny varieties and I noticed this 1922 Penny on ebay, it's IMO the hardest to find, an upright 9 type in conjunction with a common width date. The left edge of the foot on the second 2 aligns with the centre of the 15th denticle. It's basically the same date width as the every day garden variety with left tilted 9, but has the upright 9 instead which makes it rare. Only seen 12 or 13 of these since I've known about them, which has been about 10 or 11 years now. I notice it has one bidder, so I think a late lowish bid would get it."
I won it for $7:
(http://i.imgur.com/lIrl7pE.jpg)
I recently found this one, the best I've seen in 12 years of looking. It's the same as the pic in the previous post, a common width date with the upright 9 from group 2 (rare IMO). The 12 to 15 or so I've previously seen were only ever gfine at best. Even allowing for the crappy toning on the obverse, this one would grade gVF IMO. :yahoo:
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_penny_rev_group_2_common_width_date_upright_9.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_penny_obv_group_2_common_width_date_upright_9.jpg)
Also saw this on ebay, NGC graded MS62 (gEF/aU IMO) , it's an upright 9 narrow date from group 1 (extremely scarce IMO). But at $500 something Aussie, I"ll pass thanks :kez_11:
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_penny_rev_group_1_narrow_date_upright_9.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/270/1922_penny_obv_group_1_narrow_date_upright_9.jpg)
Hi, to reduce the overload of information I condensed Rays research into a magazine article that appeared in the August 2015 18-07 issue of CAB. If any body has missed that and wants a copy of the article just email me. Ray's research was stunning. The 1922 is a great coin for everybody to sift through and look for production errors and die varieties.
Fred.