I found this coin with what looks like a weak overdate in a bulk buy.I haven't seen one with the top of the 4 misformed like this before,is it just flowing metal from the strike or something else?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/3.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/2.jpg)
I'd say the top of the 4 has had a hit.
Nice find for a bulk lot.
I agree, looks like a ding imo. !
that is the weakest overdate I have ever seen, I bet it has been rubbed or something, anyway the overdate should be raised, and the basic top loop ones are boring to me now, the best ones are the ones with top and bottom loop
But if you look at the left side you can see the pointy bit of a three, on the right side you can see the curve of the three
here is a pic from flee bay
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/t8MAAOxyUI1TIRCZ/$_57.JPG)
Your enlarged pic. clearly shows the overdate. Good catch.!! Still think the top of the 4 is a ding regardless.!! :angel:
Its a bit different to my other overdates,the bottom loop of the 3 is very faint but seems in a slightly different position.The blob may well be damage but it looks too precise,also sits a bit higher than the normal top of the 4.
These USB microscopes are amazing,under a loupe the coin looks like a normal 1934,only thing that attracted me was the top of the 4.
I expect lots of wierd mint marks & new varieties in general to become known as the use of these Scopes become widespread.
I have compared the above to two that I have in my collection and I would vote for an "overdate".
I can see a curve protruding from the top left of the "4" and a curve, (semi circle) to the right of the "4".
I agree ythat there is a ding at the very top of the figure "4' but it is still, in my opinion, an overdate.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='53706' dateline='1404018017'Its a bit different to my other overdates,the bottom loop of the 3 is very faint but seems in a slightly different position.The blob may well be damage but it looks too precise,also sits a bit higher than the normal top of the 4.
These USB microscopes are amazing,under a loupe the coin looks like a normal 1934,only thing that attracted me was the top of the 4.
I expect lots of wierd mint marks & new varieties in general to become known as the use of these Scopes become widespread.
Agreed.
I've seen a few other dates that look like there is another whispy numeral underneath.
The 4 has definitely taken a hit, but it's still an overdate. Nice find! :yahoo:
Yeah,thanks for all the replies,still not sure about the top of the 4,the blob seems to sit too high for normal damage but its obviously a different die to a normal 1934 3d.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1934_panorama.jpg)
I got this when I bought my 21/22 overdate a few years back.
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/33.34_zpsm6fvoyuv.jpg)
That was a nice buy then, wasn't it? :good:
yes the last pic is a 33/34 over date, not 21/22
The mints normally prepared dies in batches of 6, so there are probably 6 different overdate dies for 34/33. Some might have signs of both the top and bottom loops, some might have just the trace of part of the top loop and possibly some might have no sign (though how you could tell would be a bugger). I have a number with what may be a trace of the top loop on the diagonal of the 4 but for all we know it is just a random defect of the die (chips, cuds, irregular surface to the die).
IIRC there are several alignments of the 3 in the '33 threepences but I'm presuming that the overdates should all be from the same numeral position.
I'll throw these Pics. of a rare O/D in this Thread for future reference.Its the only one of this type i've seen and shows the Mint modified more than one 1933 3d Die.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Ashampoo_Snap_2020_11_02_13h33m05s_001_Photos.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1934_early_die.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Duo_Text_resize.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/IMG_20201104_0001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/IMG_20201104_0002.jpg)
Re #17 and #12.
Basil I think you have a developed chip at the top of the 4 in a DIE.
#12 has the top broken right out, # 17 shows the chipping just starting.
The transition right angle edges of numbers and letters in the die are a ripe place for chipping and ragged fillets showing on a struck coin.
As it also happens to be an overdate coin makes it more interesting.
Should be more of them around, start looking!
Fred.
Throw this up whilst its quiet,early attempt at an O/D by the Mint,standard type O/D with rarely seen extremities i marked with an arrow.
Its from a bulk buy that i have just sorted,couple more 34 3d from that lot that are interesting but covered in crud that i will try to soak off.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/triple_panny_34_od.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/1934_albury.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/Albury_snap_arrows.png)
Your 3rd example also seems to have that little blob under the foot of the 9
Cant think of another overdate with as many variations as the 1934/3.
Yes,they were certainly showing a lack of talent with the 1933 O/D's,even the early Pennies were rough and the Half O/D(if it is an overdate) looks to have the top loop of 2 obliterated with the top of the 3.
The claims post 1980's(too many experts/knowledge around in the 1960/70's for it to gain traction) that only one O/D Die was used for the 34 3D is certainly wrong.
My brother reminded that a similar Coin to my latest eg(#20) was in a book as a 'textbook' eg of the 34 3d O/D,i'll try and find it(book).
This Coin is from the same bulk buy as the last one,i've removed most of the crud and it shows an interesting Die/Strike.
Its a bit of a stretch to call it an O/D but it looks like the Mint has removed(clumsily) from the Hub/Die the previous number and punched in a 4 over the top. Just an observation,i may be wrong and its something else entirely but i can't see any indication of a worn/damaged Die elsewhere on the Coin,only the 4 is affected.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/albury_4122.jpg)
Hi Basil
You raised a conundrum with your last post "Its a bit of a stretch to call it an overdate"
At what point of de-dating a die/hub/whatever does it count as an undated die, especially when they do a half-arsed job of it and leave part/most of the previous numeral behind. If they make a poor job of de-dating does that then count as an O/D or does the term O/D only apply when they don't attempt to remove the old number and just overstamp it?
Opinions?
Hi Neal...i try to stay out of the indepth research on Mint practices,too many variables especially 100 years later.
I try to just examine the Coin as it is now in 2021 and speculate on the Die that struck it and also speculate on what the Mint was trying to do.
As you know PCGS is strict with O/D grading,part of the previous year(s) number has to be showing.
My brother reckons its an early attempt at a O/D and that the mint abandoned the Die early on in the process.
He says he can see remnants of a 3 underneath,highlighted in Pic.,i'm not sure but still an interesting Coin.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/Ashampoo_Snap_2021_02_19_12h57m31s_001_Photos.png)
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/Y0vvPVW.jpg)" />
Not sure if this is an overdate or not.
Appears to be something there.
Yeah,possible Echi,only the top loop of the 3 looks like its a bit 'straight',it usually curves down, but the lower loop looks fine and is in the correct place..
I think there is no doubt the Mint were playing around with several Dies before the standard type pushed out a few thousand Coins.
Probably more variations out there that will come to light over the coming years as collectors check their Coins with USB Microscopes.
I'll throw these Pics. up while its quiet,found by one of our collectors group guys up here in the Northern Rivers of NSW.
He posted to me last week so when it turns up i'll try and soak the grime/gunk off the 4 to see if anything is under it.
Looks like a clear top loop of a 3(or 2?) under the top of the 4 but will know more if i can remove dirt.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/vic_34.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/vic_34_1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/501/vic_34__2.jpg)
Few Pics. of a 'normal/narrow' spaced date on the 3d that appears to be an Overdate.I have another one somewhere.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3d_normal_date_21.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3d_normal_date1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3d_normal_date_213.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/IMG_20210518_0001.jpg)
I'll throw these up whilst its quiet and i have the Coin out,rarer variety of the 3d overdate,evidence of the middle prong of the 3 and also strong outside top loop.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/1~3.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/8~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/9~2.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/7~1.jpg)
Lovely Basil, I'll compare that to one my lovely friend sent me not all that long ago. (Never had one before and he was so kind to send me one). Don't ya just love our community ...... though be it a tad small in numbers at the moment ..... (Thanks to Mark & Kathryn for keeping us going).
Yes Uni.,these egs are rare,i have 2 now.Under a Loupe you can see the remnants of the 3 sitting there clearly,i can't get the same angle with a USB scope.The 4 sits higher over the 3 on this Die.
One of our band up here as found a 34/33 with the wide ornament,he's not computer savvy so when it turn up i'll post some Pics., if its an overdate.
Yes,we need some more Posters in the Pre-Dec section,miss AJ(& Trout) in that regard,i don't bother posting run of the mill stuff anymore as no one replies's but i'll keep posting the more rarer finds/egs as i keep all Pics. in Folders and not much effort to throw them on here for future Ref.
Thanks for posting Basil.
Pics are excellent.
Hard part with the overdates is that there are few references that can be used to show the individual overdate dies. Really needs hi-res images of high grade coins of both the overdate and any die markers (even obverse markers help). Then it might be possible for us hoi-polloi with middle and lower grade examples to hopefully spot something on our coins that shows us which particular die we have.
And is Trout still grey nomading? I've wondered about how all the wanderers are doing what with locked borders near on 2 years.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='125949' dateline='1641531480'And is Trout still grey nomading? I've wondered about how all the wanderers are doing what with locked borders near on 2 years.
I noticed he was on here around Nov./Dec.,i sent him a PM but no reply.
Same with Fred,i sent him a PM and he replied he'll be back posting later this year,he said he was trying to build a Fission Bomb,or something like that...LOL..that will get him some some attention.
The 1934/3 overdate 3d with the normal or narrow spaced date definitely exists.
Bit like the sixpence and shilling overdate, the overdate bits tend to be harder to see.
Yes Echi,this is an eg of the 'wide spaced ornament' overdate on the 3d.
These are scarce,i have 2 so this will make 3.
Only received the Coin this morning so will try and soak the dirt out of the middle of the 4 to see what's under there.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/1~4.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/2~4.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/503/3~4.jpg)
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='125954' dateline='1641546821'The 1934/3 overdate 3d with the normal or narrow spaced date definitely exists.
Bit like the sixpence and shilling overdate, the overdate bits tend to be harder to see.
1934 sixpence overrate? Was that in a magazine article or was another 1934 coin?
Echidna posted bout the sixpence overdate last year and yes it exists. Its a single wide date die, fairly scarce.
Yes I saw it in the other thread - I thought I'd read about all four denominations having overdates but it looks like the sixpence and florin only get a mention here on the forum.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='126036' dateline='1644530478'Yes I saw it in the other thread - I thought I'd read about all four denominations having overdates but it looks like the sixpence and florin only get a mention here on the forum.
I'm accumulating '34 wide dates with the intent of eventually writing a CAB article. So far 4 different confirmed dies of which one is the overdate. Currently have about 20 examples (of the wide, only 4 of the overdate) but I'm aiming for double that before I'm confident about a possible 5th die existing/not existing. This forum is great but these varieties need a wider audience.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='126037' dateline='1644541615'Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='126036' dateline='1644530478'Yes I saw it in the other thread - I thought I'd read about all four denominations having overdates but it looks like the sixpence and florin only get a mention here on the forum.
I'm accumulating '34 wide dates with the intent of eventually writing a CAB article. So far 4 different confirmed dies of which one is the overdate. Currently have about 20 examples (of the wide, only 4 of the overdate) but I'm aiming for double that before I'm confident about a possible 5th die existing/not existing. This forum is great but these varieties need a wider audience.
I've found maybe six or so altogether over a few years of searching.
They are scarce but not rare.
So far they are all the same with only the top bit of the overdate visible.