I have a few thousand 1922 pennies and I agree that some varieties are rare and others are generally unknown. For example there are 2 different Indian master hubs and at least 6 different wide dates; but none of the catalogues (including the variety catalogues) mention this.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='49759' dateline='1400709310'I have a few thousand 1922 pennies and I agree that some varieties are rare and others are generally unknown. For example there are 2 different Indian master hubs and at least 6 different wide dates; but none of the catalogues (including the variety catalogues) mention this.
So that's what happened, instead of the melting pot they ended up at your place :biggrin: Seriously though, speaking of the wide dates, have you documented the six? It would be interesting to see what they are, as I was only able to locate five.
For example. Two wide dates of same width, coin #2 having the first numeral 2 at a slightly different alignment with rim denticles below when compared to coin #1. Coin #3 is identical to coin #1 but displays a small spike like extension from the tail of the 9. From here it seemed logical to me that there would be another coin identical to coin #2 but displaying the spike from the 9, alas, no luck as yet. Coins four and five are the extra wide dates, with one displaying the spike like extension from the tail of the 9. So that is five wide / extra wide dates in all at this point.
There are a couple of other varieties that I believe are sometimes mistaken for wide dates, reason being, they display the distinctive upright 9 that is typical. Fact is though, these other varieties have a date width less than any of the wide date varieties, one of which I believe to be the narrowest date width of all 1922 pennies.
Could you please do a check of your six wide date examples to see if any are actually the narrower date that displays the upright 9. Would be great if you could get back with what you find. Hopefully I can then stop looking for that fourth elusive wide date.
Hi Autocoupler.
It is hard to mistake the narrow dates with the wide dates as all the wide dates have FBL lettering and English obverses. That combination is rare in the non wide dates with only 3 dies known and they all have the standard 9 which is at a different angle to the wide dates.
For the wide dates it gets tricky to identify the individual dies. There are 2 dies that developed very similar die cracks through MONWE, one of which had the tail on the 9. Another die also had a tail. There was also an extra wide date that developed a die clash (spur) and 2 wide dates with no distinguishing features but the 9s are at slightly different angles.
I'm hazarding to guess but the wide dates might have been dies prepared in London and sent straight to Perth in 1922 as there is a record of London sending dies. Might explain why those dies struck superior coins.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='49882' dateline='1400767040'Hi Autocoupler.
It is hard to mistake the narrow dates with the wide dates as all the wide dates have FBL lettering and English obverses. That combination is rare in the non wide dates with only 3 dies known and they all have the standard 9 which is at a different angle to the wide dates.
For the wide dates it gets tricky to identify the individual dies. There are 2 dies that developed very similar die cracks through MONWE, one of which had the tail on the 9. Another die also had a tail. There was also an extra wide date that developed a die clash (spur) and 2 wide dates with no distinguishing features but the 9s are at slightly different angles.
I'm hazarding to guess but the wide dates might have been dies prepared in London and sent straight to Perth in 1922 as there is a record of London sending dies. Might explain why those dies struck superior coins.
Thanks nealeffendi. I get the feeling we may be using slightly different criteria but suspect we mostly may be talking about the same coins. One question though. When you speak of non wide dates with English obverses and FBL which have the standard 9, are you referring to the common and obviously left leaning 9? I only ask this question to avoid confusion as I do know of other non wide date English obverse / FBL reverse examples that do have the upright 9.
I agree with your comment about the superior strikes. One of the varieties in particular that I just mentioned displays a near perfect centre strike and near perfect rims, particularly on the obverse. In just over nine years I've only sighted nine of these.
Cheers.
Just realised this 1922 topic could be considered off topic given the original thread. My fault :dodgy: Maybe someone who knows how could put it to bed somewhere else :idea:
some varieties collectors specialise in those 1922 varieties.
my hubby used to take a keen interest , he has a special calibrator (?) for measuring them
Fred even bought a set off him years ago and used them for one of his articles
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='49882' dateline='1400767040'Hi Autocoupler.
It is hard to mistake the narrow dates with the wide dates as all the wide dates have FBL lettering and English obverses. That combination is rare in the non wide dates with only 3 dies known and they all have the standard 9 which is at a different angle to the wide dates.
For the wide dates it gets tricky to identify the individual dies. There are 2 dies that developed very similar die cracks through MONWE, one of which had the tail on the 9. Another die also had a tail. There was also an extra wide date that developed a die clash (spur) and 2 wide dates with no distinguishing features but the 9s are at slightly different angles.
I'm hazarding to guess but the wide dates might have been dies prepared in London and sent straight to Perth in 1922 as there is a record of London sending dies. Might explain why those dies struck superior coins.
Hi nealeffendi, I did ask this question before, I'm guessing it went unnoticed. When you speak of the 3 known dies of the non wide date 1922 pennies having the standard 9, are you referring to the common left leaning 9, or something else?
Cheers.
Hi Autocoupler, yes I am referring to the standard left leaning 9. The standard 9 is rare with the English obverse but about half the Indians are FBL. Roughly 80% of all 1922 pennies are standard left 9 CBL English, about 8-10% are Indian standard 9 left CBL, ditto for the FBL and 2-3% are the various wide dates. I know some collectors refer to a lower 9 left leaning 9 but I have never noticed it so if it exists I lumped it in with the standard.
I'll finally be getting a digital camera this winter and once I learn how to use it I'll upload images.
you guys need a 1922 thread
this is interesting stuff
Here ya go Mark I'll start one as I'm finding this all very interesting, thanks team :good:
This is my lone 1922 penny in my collection with a lovely die crack through the date and a couple of extra
dots and dashes on the obverse
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20140531_132917.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20140531_133245.jpg)
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='50642' dateline='1401410357'Hi Autocoupler, yes I am referring to the standard left leaning 9. The standard 9 is rare with the English obverse but about half the Indians are FBL. Roughly 80% of all 1922 pennies are standard left 9 CBL English, about 8-10% are Indian standard 9 left CBL, ditto for the FBL and 2-3% are the various wide dates. I know some collectors refer to a lower 9 left leaning 9 but I have never noticed it so if it exists I lumped it in with the standard.
I'll finally be getting a digital camera this winter and once I learn how to use it I'll upload images.
Thanks markn for rearranging the posts.
Thanks Nealeffendi, I just needed to get it straight in my mind that that's what you meant. I have sighted the four combinations of left leaning 9 common width dates you mentioned, but not having put too much time into this group was unaware of the percentages apart from the accepted 80% London to 20% Indian for the overall mintage.
I do find the group of date widths that display the more upright to slightly right leaning 9 and referred to as wide dates very interesting as well. I did mention in an earlier post that there are some within this group of upright 9's that are nearly always mistaken for wide dates, when in fact they can be the same width as the left leaning 9 common date width coins or narrower, and much scarcer in my opinion.
I'm working on putting up some pics to support descriptions, but in the mean time I'll attempt to list what I've sighted, 14 examples so far. To avoid confusion I don't differentiate between the slight change in angle of the 9 within the upright 9 groups.
This should make defining the various date widths much easier. Instead of trying to align the angled right edge of the foot on the last 2 with a rim denticle below, or indeed trying to measure the complete date width with a vernier gauge etc, simply use the left edge of the foot on the last 2 as a sighter. I find this method much less cumbersome and more definitive. Easy as falling off a log. To explain further, for all 1922 pennies the date numeral 1 aligns centrally between two denticles below. I call the denticle to the imediate right of the numeral 1, denticle #1. Counting to the right it will be seen that the left edge of the foot on the last 2 aligns with the centre of denticle 15 for all Group 1 and Group 2 coins. For Group 3 coins the alignment is left edge of denticle 15, Group 4 is right edge of denticle 15 and Group 5 is left edge of denticle 16. N.B. The alignment is taken on an imaginary line from the centre of the coin.
Descriptions of many of the following have been documented and published by others in the past and are freely available on web sites, books and magazines. There is however the odd source where an instance of vague description may have muddied the waters a little particularly where visual evidence was not available. Maybe groups 2 and 3 fit in there, but I'm yet to locate any direct reference to these coins.
GROUP ONE, COMMON DATE WIDTH, LEFT LEANING 9.
1. London FBL, 2. London CBL, 3. Indian FBL, 4. Indian CBL.
All the same date width.
Refer to example put up by Stevo1962. The angle of the 9 is obviously leaning to the left when compared to the examples below.
GROUP TWO, COMMON DATE WIDTH, UPRIGHT 9.
1. London FBL. Just the one type for this group.
Same date width as GROUP ONE where the left edge of the foot on last 2 aligns with centre of 15th denticle.
In my opinion, the combination of the upright 9 with this date width makes it EX. Scarce.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Up_9_Com__LF-C42BRC4-RC9-C15_28640x48029.jpg)
GROUP THREE, NARROW DATE WIDTH, UPRIGHT 9.
All London FBL and displaying a date width one half a denticle thickness narrower than for groups ONE & TWO, i.e. left edge of denticle 15. There are four types for this group with all displaying the same date width, but do differ from one another in the degree of slight rotation of the 9, and one having a small spur on the left side of the foot on the first 2 which gives it a different denticle alignment. The photo below is of the one that displays the spur on first 2 ( aligns at left edge of denticle 9 ), the first 2 on the other three examples in this group all align with the centre of denticle 9. These differences are all very subtle so no point in adding more photos. All unique and very scarce just the same.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Up_9_Nar__Spur2__LF-L42BRC4-L9-L15_28640x48029.jpg)
GROUP FOUR, WIDE DATE, UPRIGHT 9.
All London FBL and displaying a date width one full denticle thickness wider than for group THREE. There are at least three types for this group. Whilst displaying the same date width, they differ slightly in the positioning of the first 2, as well as a small spike like protrusion from the tail of the 9 on one example. Scarce.
Coin #1. Left side of foot on first 2 aligns between denticles 9 and 10.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Up_9_W_D__LF-RC42BR4-92910-R15_28640x48029.jpg)
Group Four Wide Date #2. Spike from tail of 9.
Same numeral positioning as #1.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Up_9_Sp__w_d__LF-RC42BR4S-92910-R15_28640x48029.jpg)
Group Four Wide Date #3. Left side of foot on FIRST 2 aligns
with left edge of 10th denticle. Other numeral positions same as for #1 and #2.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Up_9_df2__W__D__LF-RC4-R4-L10-L15_28640x48029.jpg)
GROUP FIVE, EXTRA WIDE DATE, UPRIGHT 9.
All London FBL and displaying a date width one full denticle gap wider than for group FOUR. There are two types for this group, with one displaying the spike like protrusion from the tail of the 9 being the only variance. Scarce to very scarce.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Low_Up_9_Ex__w_d__LF-LR42B4295-L10-L16_28640x48029.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/Low_Up_9_Sp__Ex__w_d__LF-LR42BL5S-L10-L16_28640x48029.jpg)
Just a note to say some further info has been added over the last few days.
Very nicely done auto, top job mate :ok:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='51293' dateline='1401933306'Very nicely done auto, top job mate :ok:
Thanks AJ, but still learning about light and shadows etc. Anyhow, I think the subtleties of the subject matter can be seen OK. Have a gander at the pics below, they are of coins from the extremely scarce group two.
One coin has flats around the complete circumference of the rim , while the other shows evidence of flats on a partial section of the rim.I find this very intriguing considering their scarceness ( just nine examples sighted by me in nine years ), that two coins of this type could have befallen a similar fate. Of the 9 coins sighted, they all display almost perfect central strikes with clean square rims, particularly on the obverse. Could be some back shed activities no doubt, would a vending machine mishap cause this effect, and what about problems at the Mint? Now there's something to think about, I'm wondering if there are any known events from the past where equipment faults during the minting process has possibly been the cause of anomalies such as this. I know, it all sounds a bit like ancient aliens!! Thinking about the quality of the strikes, in my opinion even better than other acknowledged superior strikes of this year, could they have been part of a special run that was aborted due to technical issues? All conjectural and a little tongue in cheek, but I do love a what if or two.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Penny_Up_9_Com__Rev__Flats.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Penny_Up_9_Com__Obv__Flats.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Penny_Up_9_Com__Obv__Part__Flats.jpg)
My best result for recent returns was this one which was a surprise
considering it cost me only $39 on ebay
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/30435038.html
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='50793' dateline='1401507613'This is my lone 1922 penny in my collection with a lovely die crack through the date and a couple of extra
dots and dashes on the obverse
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20140531_132917.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20140531_133245.jpg)
I'm gonna send you a couple of hundred to get me some, I like the die crack it's a ripper ;)
Great pick up, you should be charged with theft.....
Quote from: 'Nightparrot' pid='59406' dateline='1411016470'Great pick up, you should be charged with theft.....
Guilty as charged
What is the real colour of that penny? You have a very pale brown coin in one photo yet the PCGS photo has a very dark (and not in a nice rich chocolate brown way) image.
MS63 is a nice grade to get (especially at that price).
Don't know if you saw this one (ebay item 321358723636), but I just purchased it.:ebay: Which type do you think it is?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='59438' dateline='1411024007'What is the real colour of that penny? You have a very pale brown coin in one photo yet the PCGS photo has a very dark (and not in a nice rich chocolate brown way) image.
MS63 is a nice grade to get (especially at that price).
Don't know if you saw this one (ebay item 321358723636), but I just purchased it.:ebay: Which type do you think it is?
My photos show the correct colour and the PCGS photo must have been taken in reduced light
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='59438' dateline='1411024007'Don't know if you saw this one (ebay item 321358723636), but I just purchased it.:ebay: Which type do you think it is?
It's the extra wide date variety with spike on tail of 9. Refer to last photo in post dated 1/6/14
Thanks Auto, with my crappy eyesight I wasn't sure.
I received this in a bulk lot,seems to have the "toe-nail" overdate i've seen mentioned in the past.Can i retire on the proceeds of the sale of this coin or is it a run of the mill variety.Any thought/opinions appreciated.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0001~2.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0002~1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_penny_OD1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_penny_OD4.jpg)
Sorry Basil, not one to retire on. It's a left tilted 9 (no toe-nail) common width date, curved base letters in the reverse legend, and Indian obverse. You will only find the toe-nail on some of the upright 9's, these will be either wide dates or extra wide dates, and all will display a London obverse. At a rough estimate your coin represents about 14% of the 12,700,000 mintage, so assuming 5% of all pre decimal coinage remains, there will be approx. 90,000 still out there.
Thats OK,i had a sneaking suspicion the scarce coins in question were London Obv.Never mind i'll keep looking.Thanks for the Info.
Could I get opinions on this coin please. I think its a London Obverse and the 9 in the date looks quite low.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11093/1922L_Penny_YE_6-Resized.jpg)
Definately a London obverse.
Will have to dig out my 22's to see about the low 9. (Had a quick squizz in my Rennik's Varieties and there's almost a page on 22 pennies so it will take a while to digest). :winkextra:
Thanks for your response, I was wondering if it might be like the the third type shown here:
http://www.triton.vg/P22.html
Edit: aka Renniks 18A
(http://www.triton.vg/images/P22M.1B.3.jpg)
It's the extra wide date variety ie. the left edge of the foot on the last 2 aligns with left edge of the 16th denticle when counted from the 1.
Thanks very much autocoupler I saw your diagrams earlier in the thread - they are very well done and informative. I quite liked my coin already but now its correctly attributed I think its a ripper. :yahoo:
There's a few 1922 penny threads but the other auto put up wouldn't let me write on it as it says I don't have permission, anyway
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='89294' dateline='1464237157'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='89288' dateline='1464233377'Auto, could you post or pm a pic of the one you are looking for, in case I can assist? (Along with a description so I know what to look at).
COINcidence that your post was post number .... 622
Haha Good one uni, you never miss an opportunity. Just thinking about the 6 in that number, funny thing is that my Wife tells me this morning she dreamt we won sixty mill in lotto :shock: but six will do:angel: Anyhow, thanks for your interest Mate, info below.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/1922_Article_pic_13~0.JPG)
Group 2, Just the one variety for this group - Upright 9 Common width date, 9 leans slightly to the right. Left side of foot on first 2 aligns at right centre of denticle 9. Left side of foot on last 2 aligns at centre of denticle 15, which is the same as for the common group 1 coins, but the upright 9 makes this coin extremely scarce, and rare in high grade. Only found with flat base reverse lettering and London obverse. As found, accounts for approx. .08% of total 1922 Penny mintage. BTW, the two reference lines at the 9 radiate from the centre of the denticle directly above H in COMMONWEALTH. The reference lines at the left edge of the foot on each 2 radiate from the centre of the coin.
:scratch_one-s_head: well I looked and I looked and I looked but I can't find a 1922 with the blue lines on it sorry auto I tried my best mate :mocking:
But I did find 1 out of 21 where the 9 looked a little funny so this is it
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2q2pldw.jpg)
If that's what your looking for I'm sure we could work out a FAIR price so around
(http://i68.tinypic.com/dr49dh.jpg) sounds fair what'd ya reckon :)
and also found this :yahoo:
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2eapaip.jpg)
Go AJ!!! Groovy Baby!!!
(loved the blue lines bit :laugh2:)
:mocking: some people right Uni :) I just can't help it and I know your the same :friends:
Now you just stay away from the blue lines ok Uni, and the white one's, actually stay away from all lines except for maybe line dancing but I'm still undecided about that too :scratch_one-s_head:
:laugh2: You're a shocker AJ, but I love ya work baby. Mate, thanks for getting back on this, but unfortunately not what we're after. the top pic is the every day left tilted 9 common width and most popular variety, the second was one of the wide date varieties. The last pic was just awful :angel: :laugh2: but thanks Mate, most appreciated. :)
No worries, sorry I wasn't of any help so I take it I'm not in the money :cray: oh well the story of my life :) What's wrong with the last pic it's a nice error :blink:
Picked this Coin up,paid too much but i don't have a decent 1922,seller cleverly/skillfully used the lighting to cover Obverse marks but i think they are mostly Reeding and other bin hits.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/s-l500_281291922.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0001~11.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0002~8.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Die_Crack.jpg)
Lovely die crack Basil!!!! :good:
Any crack is a good crack! Nice coin Basil.
Nice grade Basil. Being a left tilted 9 CBL variety is the common type, and not trying to spiral into a whirlpool of negativity, but I would immerse it in olive oil for a week in an attempt to maybe attend to those nasty blue spots as they appear on my screen. Maybe our old friend verdigris. :angel:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='93412' dateline='1469792992'Maybe our old friend verdigris. :angel:
Yeah,will do,i'll have a go at spotting it first and see what happens,doesn't show in my scans but it has a great patina similar to the sellers first photo.