Hey guys n gals
I have seen a few posts around the difference between PCGS grading vs NGC grading. Who graded tougher etc, etc..
I have sent 8 NGC coins to PCGS for grading, all of them were in NGC holder before. I cracked them out so PCGS wouldn't have any idea what it was before. 7 Proofs and 1 circulation...
When I get the grades, I will post the results., hopefully won't be too long before I get the results back...
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='50484' dateline='1401276959'Hey guys n gals
I have seen a few posts around the difference between PCGS grading vs NGC grading. Who graded tougher etc, etc..
I have sent 8 NGC coins to PCGS for grading, all of them were in NGC holder before. I cracked them out so PCGS wouldn't have any idea what it was before. 7 Proofs and 1 circulation...
When I get the grades, I will post the results., hopefully won't be too long before I get the results back...
Some NGC coins are quite nice but I've seen far too many badly cleaned coins in their holders.
PCGS are definitely tougher.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='50485' dateline='1401277563'Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='50484' dateline='1401276959'Hey guys n gals
I have seen a few posts around the difference between PCGS grading vs NGC grading. Who graded tougher etc, etc..
I have sent 8 NGC coins to PCGS for grading, all of them were in NGC holder before. I cracked them out so PCGS wouldn't have any idea what it was before. 7 Proofs and 1 circulation...
When I get the grades, I will post the results., hopefully won't be too long before I get the results back...
Some NGC coins are quite nice but I've seen far too many badly cleaned coins in their holders.
PCGS are definitely tougher.
Most of the coins I sent over are okay coins... It had some high grades in there... All silver graded PR 66 and one 67. Copper were 65 RD or higher... Non proof was a 1941 3D in MS 65.....
Have a look at walters auction, drakesterling, pacificrim and all other major sites and auction houses. The fact that over 95% of Australian pre-decimal coins (and even decimals) in holders on the market are PCGS gives the answer.
Quote from: 'dcoin' pid='50488' dateline='1401278414'Have a look at walters auction, drakesterling, pacificrim and all other major sites and auction houses. The fact that over 95% of Australian pre-decimal coins (and even decimals) in holders on the market are PCGS gives the answer.
I agree with you partially, this is true for Australian coins.. If you look at overall NGC is not far behind... However we are talking about Aussie coins so Australian buyers prefer PCGS is what I hear...
I personally like PCGS as it holds value within Australian market.
My Rule 1 : Buy the coin. Not the holder..
I bought 1 coin in NGC holder it crossed a grade lower , but the colour upgraded. I expected the 1 point downgrade.
Another coin I viewed in my opinion would cross but was out of my price range. Too bad for me it did cross as single finest graded... I was kicking myself for letting it go.
Quote from: 'dcoin' pid='50488' dateline='1401278414'Have a look at walters auction, drakesterling, pacificrim and all other major sites and auction houses. The fact that over 95% of Australian pre-decimal coins (and even decimals) in holders on the market are PCGS gives the answer.
That is in Australia. If you go to sites like Heritage Auctions then it isn't so clear cut.
On coin forums in America there is a general opinion that NGC has a stronger market presence in world coins. Also a general opinion that PCGS is a tougher grader, more expensive and gets higher prices. I don't know enough about the market presence outside Australia to comment but on the other points the consensus is spot on.
I won't crack any NGC slabs I buy as in 10-20 years NGC could be on top or PCGS could be history but until then my raw coins will take their vacation with PCGS.
Quote from: 'Fr45h3R' pid='50490' dateline='1401279394'My Rule 1 : Buy the coin. Not the holder..
I bought 1 coin in NGC holder it crossed a grade lower , but the colour upgraded. I expected the 1 point downgrade.
Another coin I viewed in my opinion would cross but was out of my price range. Too bad for me it did cross as single finest graded... I was kicking myself for letting it go.
As I said, would be very interesting to see what happens to the coins I have sent, if I get the same grade back for the proof shilling and the 3 D back, I have quadruple my money ! I personally think it is luck of the draw !
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='50492' dateline='1401279819'Quote from: 'dcoin' pid='50488' dateline='1401278414'Have a look at walters auction, drakesterling, pacificrim and all other major sites and auction houses. The fact that over 95% of Australian pre-decimal coins (and even decimals) in holders on the market are PCGS gives the answer.
That is in Australia. If you go to sites like Heritage Auctions then it isn't so clear cut.
On coin forums in America there is a general opinion that NGC has a stronger market presence in world coins. Also a general opinion that PCGS is a tougher grader, more expensive and gets higher prices. I don't know enough about the market presence outside Australia to comment but on the other points the consensus is spot on.
I won't crack any NGC slabs I buy as in 10-20 years NGC could be on top or PCGS could be history but until then my raw coins will take their vacation with PCGS.
While Heritage may have a lot of ngc coins, a MS63 ngc fetches a similar price to a MS62 pcgs coin (for Australian coins). That sums it up I think.
I have only had 121 coins graded by PCGS and 30 graded by NGC.
I see No difference in the grading between the 2 companies.
I am of the opinion that it is a perception and not a fact that PCGS is better.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='50515' dateline='1401308170'I have only had 121 coins graded by PCGS and 30 graded by NGC.
I see No difference in the grading between the 2 companies.
I am of the opinion that it is a perception and not a fact that PCGS is better.
Unfortunately trout I'm going to disagree with you, and the Australian market disagrees with you and a significant portion of the world coin grading market disagrees with you.
And I'd strongly advise that anyone who wants to get their Aussie coins graded with an eye to resale do so with PCGS rather than NGC.
Is there any "Hard" evidence that NGC is an inferior grading Company to PCGS or is it all "anecdotal " ?
The only gripe I have with NGC is its return packaging is Crappy and the blue boxes PCGS use are outstanding.
As far as the imaging departments go NGC beats PCGS hands down.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='50520' dateline='1401311438'Is there any "Hard" evidence that NGC is an inferior grading Company to PCGS or is it all "anecdotal " ?
The only gripe I have with NGC is its return packaging is Crappy and the blue boxes PCGS use are outstanding.
As far as the imaging departments go NGC beats PCGS hands down.
Of course there's never been a peer reviewed scientific study about who grades tougher. Note I didn't say a "better company". But regardless, you've got most of the coin collecting world telling you PCGS are harder graders than NGC and you're still looking for more evidence? I have had THOUSANDS of coins graded by PCGS and seen HUNDREDS of NGC slabs and the MAJORITY of NGC slabs are graded slightly easier than PCGS. My guess (and that of most other people) is that 1 point is good discount to apply to an NGC graded coin when comparing it with PCGS.
Now you can sit there and look at pictures on the internet and look at your single PCGS graded shilling and compare it with your single NGC graded shilling of the same year and make sweeping statements about how YOU think NGC grades just as tough as PCGS but I am sorry you are going to be a voice in the wilderness. If you don't want to accept the body of evidence go ahead and get your coins graded by NGC and sell them in Australia and see how you go.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='50520' dateline='1401311438'As far as the imaging departments go NGC beats PCGS hands down.
The Secure Plus images and the NGC images are both HORRIBLE.
Quotemake sweeping statements about how YOU think NGC grades just as tough as PCGS
I didn't say that they are both the same at all , It's just that my tiny sample of coins graded don't show me any difference in grading "Toughness" as far as I can tell.
I agree that PCGS graded coins sell at a premium over the same grade NGC coins, That's just the way the market is at the moment.
My bodybag count with PCGS is 3 coins out of 121 and 4 out of 30 coins with NGC, admittedly all the coins I send to NGC are pre decimals or colonial/proclamation coins that have been around the traps and are susceptible to damage/abuse.
I am Not saying that one company is better or the same at all , I am simply stating what I have observed personally so far.
If that makes me "a voice in the wilderness " then so be it , I prefer to make my own observations and judgments rather than have a "Sheep" mentality and just take everything I hear or read as absolute gospel .
Quote from: 'markn' pid='50521' dateline='1401312378'Quote from: 'trout' pid='50520' dateline='1401311438'Is there any "Hard" evidence that NGC is an inferior grading Company to PCGS or is it all "anecdotal " ?
The only gripe I have with NGC is its return packaging is Crappy and the blue boxes PCGS use are outstanding.
As far as the imaging departments go NGC beats PCGS hands down.
Of course there's never been a peer reviewed scientific study about who grades tougher. Note I didn't say a "better company". But regardless, you've got most of the coin collecting world telling you PCGS are harder graders than NGC and you're still looking for more evidence? I have had THOUSANDS of coins graded by PCGS and seen HUNDREDS of NGC slabs and the MAJORITY of NGC slabs are graded slightly easier than PCGS. My guess (and that of most other people) is that 1 point is good discount to apply to an NGC graded coin when comparing it with PCGS.
Now you can sit there and look at pictures on the internet and look at your single PCGS graded shilling and compare it with your single NGC graded shilling of the same year and make sweeping statements about how YOU think NGC grades just as tough as PCGS but I am sorry you are going to be a voice in the wilderness. If you don't want to accept the body of evidence go ahead and get your coins graded by NGC and sell them in Australia and see how you go.
I agree with Mark, resale value for PCGS coins are higher, it is not a statement from me.. It's proven in Australia for Australian coins... However if you do decide to go ahead with NGC it is better to stay with them so you can participate in the registry set schemes etc with NGC. Most of the collectors in Australia uses PCGS registry set( I am one of them) system. So it makes sense to get the coins graded with PCGS. It is also important to note I have seen many more PCGS coins on sale when it come to pre decimal coins. Hence it is better for me to collect PCGS graded coins...
On the other side I look for better quality NGC coins. Since people are not that interested (perception of all NGC coins are graded 1 or so points higher than a similar quality PCGS coin) in NGC slabs, I try to take a punt and buy them.. If they cross over it is a bonus... I have done just that with the 8 coins with PCGS at the moment... When the results are out I will see how good my judgement is ...
Quote from: 'trout' pid='50515' dateline='1401308170'I have only had 121 coins graded by PCGS and 30 graded by NGC.
I see No difference in the grading between the 2 companies.
I am of the opinion that it is a perception and not a fact that PCGS is better.
hi trout, I reckon you've only sent over lower to mid grade coins (say circulated coins and MS coins up to MS63 or 64)?
If you're looking for evidence that PCGS grades harder than NGC, look at their population reports. You'll find amongst the higher grades, for most series of coins, there are far more NGC-graded coins than PCGS-graded coins. If you have a statistical background, you can see that PCGS grades fewer higher grade coins than NGC with a certain level of confidence.
Anyway, it really is beside the point whether a company grades "harder" or "easier". The most important thing is consistency. In my view, NGC is less consistent than PCGS.
Quotehi trout, I reckon you've only sent over lower to mid grade coins (say circulated coins and MS coins up to MS63 or 64)?
This would be the case with my NGC submissions.
The highest graded NGC coin I have is MS66
With my PCGS submissions Most of which are decimal coins, these tend to come back as MS/PR 68-69
QuoteIf you're looking for evidence that PCGS grades harder than NGC, look at their population reports. You'll find amongst the higher grades, for most series of coins, there are far more NGC-graded coins than PCGS-graded coins. If you have a statistical background, you can see that PCGS grades fewer higher grade coins than NGC with a certain level of confidence.
I had a look at the pop reports on both sites and yes with the pre decimal coins the grades seem higher on the NGC site.
I also noticed that PCGS has graded far more Australian coins both pre decimal and decimal than NGC.
QuoteAnyway, it really is beside the point whether a company grades "harder" or "easier". The most important thing is consistency. In my view, NGC is less consistent than PCGS.
I know you send many many coins away to be graded , What percentage of these coins did you send to NGC to form this view?
This IS and interesting discussion and it is not like we are trying to compare PGCS with APCGS, That would be ridicules .
I just find it interesting that NGC coins are "Blanket" downgraded my one grading point across the board by collectors because of a perceived idea that they are graded "Softer" or less consistently than PCGS.
Buy the coin and not the slab is by far the best option regardless of what the slab states, Is the advice from most serious collectors and I tend to agree with that :ok:
This is my highest graded NGC coin and it would be an interesting exercise to send it to PCGS to see if the grade held up.Unfortunately if it came back a lower grade I would stand to lose $thousands so not worth the risk
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/20140506_111302.jpg)
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='50533' dateline='1401322447'This is my highest graded NGC coin and it would be an interesting exercise to send it to PCGS to see if the grade held up.Unfortunately if it came back a lower grade I would stand to lose $thousands so not worth the risk
The number I see bandied about on the PCGS forums for NGC coins crossing at the same grade into PCGS slabs is 30%. I wouldn't send that coin to PCGS either.
QuoteThis is my highest graded NGC coin and it would be an interesting exercise to send it to PCGS to see if the grade held up.Unfortunately if it came back a lower grade I would stand to lose $thousands so not worth the risk
You can send it in as a cross over, If it doesn't cross over at the same grade PCGS will send the coin back in the NGC slab.
BTW Bloody Nice coin Mate :good:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='50538' dateline='1401322908'QuoteThis is my highest graded NGC coin and it would be an interesting exercise to send it to PCGS to see if the grade held up.Unfortunately if it came back a lower grade I would stand to lose $thousands so not worth the risk
You can send it in as a cross over, If it doesn't cross over at the same grade PCGS will send the coin back in the NGC slab.
BTW Bloody Nice coin Mate :good:
I wasn't aware of that Jim .I will talk to Eric about it.I suspect that it will still cost me a grading fee if it doesn't cross over
QuoteI wasn't aware of that Jim .I will talk to Eric about it.I suspect that it will still cost me a grading fee if it doesn't cross over
If it doesn't cross over you will be charged the standard grading fee .
If it does cross over you will be charged the standard grading fee plus 1% of the coins value as well.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='50537' dateline='1401322859'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='50533' dateline='1401322447'This is my highest graded NGC coin and it would be an interesting exercise to send it to PCGS to see if the grade held up.Unfortunately if it came back a lower grade I would stand to lose $thousands so not worth the risk
The number I see bandied about on the PCGS forums for NGC coins crossing at the same grade into PCGS slabs is 30%. I wouldn't send that coin to PCGS either.
38%, at the moment.
http://www.pcgs.com/statistics/
This number, however, includes coins that "crossed", and "crossed" means that PCGS put the coin into a PCGS holder, not that it necessarily crossed to the same grade. This would also include other grading services.
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='50752' dateline='1401495372'Quote from: 'markn' pid='50537' dateline='1401322859'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='50533' dateline='1401322447'This is my highest graded NGC coin and it would be an interesting exercise to send it to PCGS to see if the grade held up.Unfortunately if it came back a lower grade I would stand to lose $thousands so not worth the risk
The number I see bandied about on the PCGS forums for NGC coins crossing at the same grade into PCGS slabs is 30%. I wouldn't send that coin to PCGS either.
38%, at the moment.
http://www.pcgs.com/statistics/
This number, however, includes coins that "crossed", and "crossed" means that PCGS put the coin into a PCGS holder, not that it necessarily crossed to the same grade. This would also include other grading services.
The 30% number I've seen used is crossed at same grade or better rather than just holdered. Now that I see the 38% I suspect that even the 30% estimate is probably too high.
I saw a figure on the PCGS forum that 1 in 400 slabs cross over to PCGS at a higher grade than on the old (NGC, ANACS) slab.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='50767' dateline='1401499328'I saw a figure on the PCGS forum that 1 in 400 slabs cross over to PCGS at a higher grade than on the old (NGC, ANACS) slab.
That 1 higher crossover sounds like an accident
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='50768' dateline='1401499500'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='50767' dateline='1401499328'I saw a figure on the PCGS forum that 1 in 400 slabs cross over to PCGS at a higher grade than on the old (NGC, ANACS) slab.
That 1 higher crossover sounds like an accident
Maybe not. A coin might be on a knife-edge as to if it gets one grade or the next one up. It is like women, they can be 51% a sweetie and 49% a biatch and only takes a tiny quibble to swap it around. The NGC grader could have been a tad hard and the PCGS grader could of seen that the coin had merits.
:laugh2: just love the analogy Neal, pay that mate :good:
cough cough
nah, not all 49/51
I am one of those who is 99% sweetie :give_rose:
then one tiny quibble and I'm 100% total b...... ha ha
my hubby used to be a red head but now he is a silverback ... gone grey young having survived a few total turn arounds with his sweetie over the years
ha ha
:laugh2: gee I think I just popped a lung, thanks RG, but yes you are a 100% sweetie for sure and I thought Neal would have got a few more bites by now but like all fishing patience is a virtue waiting for the strike but sometimes when they bite, boy do they bite. I can see I'm gonna have to take the big bloke away for a few days R&R and put a rinse thru his hair so he's all nice and young again :good:
Okay folks, I got the results from PCGS for the 8 coins that I was talking about previously. Long story short, I sent 8 NGC graded coins ( coins were out of holders ) to PCGS.
Tell, you the least results are very inconsistent.
Moral of the story, generally PCGS grades very harshly specially when it comes to eye appeal... You will see why when I post pictures. ..
Here are the comparisons
1941(m) 3D Australia MS63 was MS65 --- down 2
1959(m) 6D Australia PR67 was PF66 -- up by 1
1959(m) 6D Australia PR66 was PF66
1959(m) Florin Australia PR66 WAS PF65 ----- Gone up by 1
1959(m) Shil Australia PR66 was PF67 --- down by 1
1963(p) 1/2D Australia PR64RD was PR66RD --- down by 2
1963(p) 1D Australia PR65RD was PF65RD
1962(p) 1D Australia PR65RD was PF 65RD
Verry interesting results.
It will be interesting to view the images.
Eye appeal IS a factor when buying a coin and it is a personal opinion because everyone's tastes are differant.
Grading should be a purely technical assessment of a coin and the asthetic assessment should be done by whoever buys/owns the coin.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51275' dateline='1401917929'Grading should be a purely technical assessment of a coin and the asthetic assessment should be done by whoever buys/owns the coin.
It isn't though. PCGS do factor eye appear into their grade.
Well aus I have thinned out the list so when should I expect them mate :)
1959(m) 6D Australia PR67 was PF66 -- up by 1
1959(m) 6D Australia PR66 was PF66
1959(m) Florin Australia PR66 WAS PF65 ----- Gone up by 1
1959(m) Shil Australia PR66 was PF67 --- down by 1
1963(p) 1/2D Australia PR64RD was PR66RD --- down by 2
1963(p) 1D Australia PR65RD was PF65RD
1962(p) 1D Australia PR65RD was PF 65RD
QuoteIt isn't though. PCGS do factor eye appear into their grade.
Is it just PCGS that does this ?
Grading coins is NOT a beauty pageant, it is a technical assessment of a coins state of preservation , strike, wear and wither or not it has been damaged for whatever reason.
To grade a coin higher just because the Particular grader thinks it is "Pretty" can only lead to inconsistencies.
Toned coins for instance are regarded differently by different collectors.
Some of us love them and some of us hate them, yet you can have a toned and untoned coin that is technically the same grade yet it is entirely up to the grader on the day to decide if he prefers the toned or untoned coin and grade them accordingly due to the "Eye Appeal" in HIS opinion.
Give the same coins to another grader with different tastes and I imagine that the grades would differ.
We have to remember that when we send our coins away to be graded we are only getting an "Opinion" and NOT a scientifically proved grade .
Face recognition type software may in the future remove the human error factor But at the moment we have to just accept that nobody is perfect and that includes the grading staff at the TPG's and there WILL be differing opinions as to the grade of any particular coin.
Thanks for posting AJ, that's very interesting, as your well aware, that up or down by 1 or 2 can mean lot of $$$$$$$
Quote from: 'proof27' pid='51328' dateline='1401950687'Thanks for posting AJ, that's very interesting, as your well aware, that up or down by 1 or 2 can mean lot of $$$$$$$
Hahaha.. Yes I am well aware what it does to value of my coins...for an example if the 41 3D graded at the same level as NGC garde MS65 I would have had a $2000 coin vs what I have now In MS 63 - $150 ... that's life, I took a punt and loss !:dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51326' dateline='1401950119'QuoteIt isn't though. PCGS do factor eye appear into their grade.
Is it just PCGS that does this ?
I have no idea. But PCGS do it.
PCGS and Eye Appeal (http://www.pcgs.com/eyeappeal.html)
Yeah me too aus but I think you meant aus not AJ p27 but as usual I'm probably wrong :) But yes I know about 1 point and that's why I'm very happy to have second tear as they are still a very nice coin and a bit more within my budget :winkextra:
Cheers for the link Mark that's actually very interesting and all these things help :good:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='51339' dateline='1401952791'Quote from: 'trout' pid='51326' dateline='1401950119'QuoteIt isn't though. PCGS do factor eye appear into their grade.
Is it just PCGS that does this ?
I have no idea. But PCGS do it.
PCGS and Eye Appeal (http://www.pcgs.com/eyeappeal.html)
Cheers Mark, I will post some of the pics shortly ... Then you will see what I mean about the eye appeal .... PCGS definitely factor it and so as they should....
[attachment=2816][attachment=2815][attachment=2814]
Here we go guys, I have a picture of 1941 3D that went down 2 points, 1963 Proof 1/2 D again went down 2 points and 1959 Proof 6D went up by 1 point....
PS - not sure why PCGS photo quality is going down each time I look at photos.. These are very dull...
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='51340' dateline='1401952947'Yeah me too aus but I think you meant aus not AJ p27 but as usual I'm probably wrong :) But yes I know about 1 point and that's why I'm very happy to have second tear as they are still a very nice coin and a bit more within my budget :winkextra:
Cheers for the link Mark that's actually very interesting and all these things help :good:
Correct, Thx and sorry bout that AJ, I'm still trying to work my away around site, might get the hang of it in the next 12mths.
Nah it's all good p27, I think I know who I am, well some days I do and there's no time limit on anything here really so just enjoy your time mate :friends:
Now to aus, I was actually talking to another member last night about this and we were both on pcgs registry and we are of the opinion that one is a picture and one is actually a scan so when people like, well no names needed :winkextra: but when people crack them out and resubmit hoping for a better grade well now with all the high-tech gizmos apparently they scan all coins now so when it gets scanned again the computer tells them it's already in the system and been done as I think coins are like us and no two are truly identical but this is just a thought :)
Oh and yes I'll take them aus :)
QuotePCGS definitely factor it and so as they should....
I tend to disagree , A coin should be graded on its technical qualities and NOT its "eye factor" because that can be different from collector to collector :ok:
Yes I think I tend to agree as I think your totally beautiful trout :blush2: but some might not :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='51360' dateline='1401964827'Nah it's all good p27, I think I know who I am, well some days I do and there's no time limit on anything here really so just enjoy your time mate :friends:
Now to aus, I was actually talking to another member last night about this and we were both on pcgs registry and we are of the opinion that one is a picture and one is actually a scan so when people like, well no names needed :winkextra: but when people crack them out and resubmit hoping for a better grade well now with all the high-tech gizmos apparently they scan all coins now so when it gets scanned again the computer tells them it's already in the system and been done as I think coins are like us and no two are truly identical but this is just a thought :)
Oh and yes I'll take them aus :)
Oh okay, I think they only do this for PCGS coin.. I dont think they compare NGC vs PCGS .. would you know AJ?
I cracked open my NGC coins as it is cheaper to grade raw coins with PCGS than doing crossovers...
Happy for you to take them for $$$$ :yahoo:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51362' dateline='1401965787'QuotePCGS definitely factor it and so as they should....
I tend to disagree , A coin should be graded on its technical qualities and NOT its "eye factor" because that can be different from collector to collector :ok:
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=3798&Star-designation
Seems NGC is considering eye appeal too...
:) thought you might mate LOL. I'm not sure but with technology today who know and they might be linked but I doubt it just yet but I'm thinking PCGS do it on all the recent coins they have done but some old ones that have the white label might make it thru being older and not scanned into the system but who know as we just noticed a pic and then an arrow to the right..here suss this and hopefully if it works properly you'll see an arrow either side of the pic, well click it and take a look, we reckon one is a scan for the computer and one is a pic but we could be wrong and any thoughts most welcome :)
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=82833
nah it didn't work sorry but click on say the 50 cent an hit the side arrows
stupid computers, but if you type in a code and click on the pic you will get two pic's.
Sorry AJ but I really don't think any of the TPG's have a database of every single coin ever graded for comparison.
Take my gold Ducat for example, was graded MS63 by NGC then I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS .
It came back "Details" altered surfaces, Then I sent it back to NGC and it came back as a MS65.
I have had this coin in my hand RAW and I cannot see any evidence of "altered surfaces" whatsoever and from MS63 to MS65 is a huge jump in grade from the SAME grading company makes me think that NO they do not keep records of coins coming through and was simply graded by a different grader:ok:
Like I said earlier on this thread , it is simply an opinion from a TPG and NOT an absolute fact about the grade.
All I can advise is to look at the coin and NOT the holder/slab and make an educated assessment of the coin.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51377' dateline='1401968589'Sorry AJ but I really don't think any of the TPG's have a database of every single coin ever graded for comparison.
Take my gold Ducat for example, was graded MS63 by NGC then I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS .
It came back "Details" altered surfaces, Then I sent it back to NGC and it came back as a MS65.
I have had this coin in my hand RAW and I cannot see any evidence of "altered surfaces" whatsoever and from MS63 to MS65 is a huge jump in grade from the SAME grading company makes me think that NO they do not keep records of coins coming through and was simply graded by a different grader:ok:
Like I said earlier on this thread , it is simply an opinion from a TPG and NOT an absolute fact about the grade.
All I can advise is to look at the coin and NOT the holder/slab and make an educated assessment of the coin.
A coin graded using a PCGS Secure Plus service, will be identified if it is resubmitted raw, and the original certificate will be removed, and also struck from the population report. This is to prevent the scenario where more examples have been graded, than are actually known..
Does the original certificate for your Ducat still work at NGC, or only the MS65 one ?
Sorry AJ but I really don't think any of the TPG's have a database of every single coin ever graded for comparison
You might be right but amuse me please and put one of your recent numbers into pcgs http://www.pcgs.com/cert/ and then click on the pic, not sure but think it has to be pic and then when it comes up look and there should be an arrow and suss them out as they look like two different pic's and that was the only idea we could come up with as one look really nice and think that's the pic and the other shows every detail on the coin like a scan does.
Yeah I don't know how the same coin can get different grades but there's still just so much for me to learn :)
A coin graded using a PCGS Secure Plus service, will be identified if it is resubmitted raw
Thanks Rob this is the sort of thing I was talking about.
QuoteDoes the original certificate for your Ducat still work at NGC, or only the MS65 one ?
I sent the original cert to Eric when I re submitted the coin.
I bought the coin from PP so she may have the cert #
Trouts Ducat ex NGC (http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3591794-004)
Thanks PP :good:
Here is the link in its current holder.
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3700615-003
QuoteSeems NGC is considering eye appeal too...
That makes sense to have a + for exceptional eye appeal instead of taking away or adding a numerical grade to the coin :good:
This only ONE example of two coins same mint same year graded by both PCGS and NGC.
The lighting and conditions are the same on both coins (it's overcast outside :dash1: )
This is NOT a definitive answer , it is however an interesting comparison of two similar coins graded by two different TPG's . :ok:
The PCGS coin is graded at MS65 and the NGC coin is graded at MS66
There is clearly at least one grading point difference in the two coins.
PCGS Coin
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/pcgs1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/pcgs.jpg)
NGC Coin
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/ngc1.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/ngc~0.jpg)
Here are the coins Side by Side
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/two.jpg)
They look pretty much the same.The NGC coin might be a better strike
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51517' dateline='1402100867'The PCGS coin is graded at MS65 and the NGC coin is graded at MS66
There is clearly at least one grading point difference in the two coins.
??? The only thing that you've proved with those photos is that you need to learn what manual white balance is. It's almost impossible to grade high grade coins from great photos, let along the ones you've posted up here.e
Quote from: 'markn' pid='51582' dateline='1402130102'Quote from: 'trout' pid='51517' dateline='1402100867'The PCGS coin is graded at MS65 and the NGC coin is graded at MS66
There is clearly at least one grading point difference in the two coins.
??? The only thing that you've proved with those photos is that you need to learn what manual white balance is. It's almost impossible to grade high grade coins from great photos, let alone the ones you've posted up here.
Be Nice Mark, I am NOT as expert as most at taking coin pic's and
I am NOT asking anyone to grade these coins from the images, I am simply putting the two together as a comparison.
Both coins were photographed under exactly the same conditions by an inept operator, that having been said Even blind Freddy can see the NGC coin is a higher grade regardless of the "White Balance".
The strike and the lustre is stronger on the NGC coin and that is readily apparent despite the "Crap" photo's .
That is why it was graded 1 point higher.
At least I made the effort to have "in hand" two coins of the same year and mintage to do a comparison.
Simply "Throwing rocks" at me for my inability to use a camera at a professional level is neither constructive or friendly Mate.
I am NOT trying to prove the NGC is better than PCGS or PCGS is better than NGC , I simply put two coins from two different sides of the continent together and see how the 2 TPG's performed with their grading of these two coins .
So instead of wasting your energies "Bagging" me , Why not do a similar comparison of two coins from the 2 TPG's :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51586' dateline='1402133695'I am NOT trying to prove the NGC is better than PCGS or PCGS is better than NGC , I simply put two coins from two different sides of the continent together and see how the 2 TPG's performed with their grading of these two coins .
So instead of wasting your energies "Bagging" me , Why not do a similar comparison of two coins from the 2 TPG's :ok:
You're flogging the same dead horse with your two shillings because it suits your arguments. And you're doing so with images that are not supportive of whatever point you're trying to get across. If you're going to put yourself forward as an authority then you need to have supporting information. And all we've got is the images you've posted above.
Right now, on at least 3 occasions I can recall you've brought these two shillings up as an example of...well I am not sure what you're trying to say. But, trout, it's a sample size of one. It means nothing. I'll just counter it with your ducat which PCGS wouldn't even grade and NGC somehow upgraded by two whole points. So there we go, your shillings are now countered by your ducat.
Go take a look at ausproofs grading results, I think they say a lot more than two isolated shillings you happen to own ever will.
well then explain it markn as my photos look like that as well when I have fading light.
I for one would love to hear how to make my pictures better
if you could explain you set up that would be good because I would love to be able to do this
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/die-polish.jpg)
oh and on topic trout I see a weaker strike on the pcgs one but a lot more breaks in lustre on the ngc. if I have read correctly they use a point system to count back from 70 in the ms grades I see more marks on the ngc one and would consider that these coins should actually be about equal with the PCGS having more eye appeal imho
Quote from: 'serial' pid='51591' dateline='1402134470'well then explain it markn as my photos look like that as well when I have fading light.
I for one would love to hear how to make my pictures better
if you could explain you set up that would be good because I would love to be able to do this
Don't take you pictures outdoors. Do it indoors, get some lights, get a tripod or a copy stand. Learn how to do manual white balance on your camera and if yours doesn't have it get one that does. You want so much light that your coin gets too hot to touch. And then you want more light. You want to shoot at ISO100 to maximise the detail your camera gives. ISO200 and ISO400 just gives grainer images. And more lights helps you with this plus gives your camera the best chance of doing it's magic.
What sort of lights and how many? i cant get natural colours indoors hence why i rely on good weather to take my pictures
the white balance i have has options, cloudy, sunny incandescent, fluorescent and auto
Quote from: 'serial' pid='51595' dateline='1402135811'What sort of lights and how many? i cant get natural colours indoors hence why i rely on good weather to take my pictures
and white balance is that exposure comp?
I use 3 100W halogens. I'd like to try the equivalent wattage in LED's but the globes are expensive and it could be a costly experiment.
White balance is not exposure compensation. White balance can basically be thought of as telling your camera what constitutes white. Every type of light has a different "warmth" that tints the colour the camera sees. For example, incandescent bulbs are warm and yellow/orange shifted. So, adjusting your white balance in these lighting conditions removes the tint that you'll see in your images. Most cameras have a number of preset white balance settings and some have a full manual balance. Full manual white balance usually involves putting a white or grey card in front of the camera and taking a picture of it under the lights you're going to use. The camera says hey this should be white but it's a bit yellow, so from this time forward I'll remove a bit of yellow. Or red, or blue, or whatever colour temperature your lighting happens to be.
QuoteYou're flogging the same dead horse with your two shillings because it suits your arguments.
I am NOT arguing anything here , I simply need proof that PCGS is a better grading company than NGC rather than anecdotal evidence from people heavily invested in the PCGS product :ok:
Since my not so bloodless conversion to Slab's I have spent a few grand on grading fees that I could have spent on coins instead and I simply want a definitive answer as to who is the most reliable grading company to spend my hard earned quids with.
Simple as that with NO hidden agendas whatsoever.
I do see that PCGS graded coins get a better price than NGC graded coins at auction But is that because the PCGS coins are graded better and more reliably or is it simply because there are fewer NGC coins on the market and there is a conception that the grading at NGC is "Inferior" to PCGS.
I have also noticed that most of our American cousins rely on NGC for grading their "World Coins" that includes Australia but use PCGS for US coins.
I am NOT looking for arguments here , I simply want a definitive answer (without prejudice) as to where I should send my coins and spend my quids :angel:
camera?
Quote from: 'serial' pid='51606' dateline='1402138613'camera?
Nikon D7100 with a Tamron 90mm fixed macro. The lens is more important than the body.
ouch i just saw the price of that set up
let me know if you are upgrading and want to sell the rig :)
Quote from: 'serial' pid='51609' dateline='1402139154'ouch i just saw the price of that set up
let me know if you are upgrading and want to sell the rig :)
The camera and lens are the last things I'd upgrade. Lights and copystand first.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51602' dateline='1402137712'QuoteYou're flogging the same dead horse with your two shillings because it suits your arguments.
I am NOT arguing anything here , I simply need proof that PCGS is a better grading company than NGC rather than anecdotal evidence from people heavily invested in the PCGS product :ok:
Since my not so bloodless conversion to Slab's I have spent a few grand on grading fees that I could have spent on coins instead and I simply want a definitive answer as to who is the most reliable grading company to spend my hard earned quids with.
Simple as that with NO hidden agendas whatsoever.
I do see that PCGS graded coins get a better price than NGC graded coins at auction But is that because the PCGS coins are graded better and more reliably or is it simply because there are fewer NGC coins on the market and there is a conception that the grading at NGC is "Inferior" to PCGS.
I have also noticed that most of our American cousins rely on NGC for grading their "World Coins" that includes Australia but use PCGS for US coins.
I am NOT looking for arguments here , I simply want a definitive answer (without prejudice) as to where I should send my coins and spend my quids :angel:
Hey Trout,
I am not a professional when it comes to coin grading nor an expert when it comes to coin collecting. IMHO comparing PCGS and NGC is similar to measuring distance with "m" and "Yards" and expect the length to be the same. I believe the two companies use different considerations (one consider eye appeal for the numeric grade and other doesn't ? ) hence the results you get are different. All comes down to consistency and accuracy. I would stay away from a company that grades the same coin twice and comes up with two vastly different grades. I personally think NGC coins graded much leniently and PCGS is much harsher. I have spent a handy sum of money in the last 12 months on coins. I have collected both NGC and PCGS coins with the ability to compare larger sample sizes. I have personally decided to buy PCGS predominantly due to the quality of coins I get when I buy over the net.
I still buy NGC coins, however if I can only see clear photos and know the coin will grade similar if I get it crossed over to PCGS. If not I would only pay the value of a coin that is 1 or 2 levels below.
In saying that I have had coins graded by NGC that are absolutely gorgeous.
Therefore my conclusion is if you buy coins for collecting (& have no intention of selling or expect it to appreciate handsomely in the years to come) purposes only, then it should not matter what you buy, just by the coin you like. However If you are a collector who does it for bit of fun and as an investment for my kids/grand kids, then buy what would hold the highest value. Like anything else any investment is a gamble and comes with risks. What to say next year a company would come up with 100% accurate/consistent electronic microscopic grading with no human interaction ? Then we all have to double guess what we have in our collections are what they say it is to be...
my cheap opinion:thank_you:
Quotemy cheap opinionThank_you
NO opinion is "Cheap" Mate and I appreciate your answer as a collector . :yahoo:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='51614' dateline='1402140351'Quotemy cheap opinionThank_you
NO opinion is "Cheap" Mate and I appreciate your answer as a collector . :yahoo:
I feel very special mate :biggrin:
QuoteI feel very special mate Biggrin
I feel that we are ALL pretty special as collectors here Mate :good:
[/quote]
I use 3 100W halogens. I'd like to try the equivalent wattage in LED's but the globes are expensive and it could be a costly experiment.
I'll remove a bit of yellow. Or red, or blue, or whatever colour temperature your lighting happens to be.
[/quote]
wow that would be a lot of heat , i have visions of slabs melting and the raw coins toning.
sorry i am off topic, just had me wondering
Quote from: 'bellyflorin' pid='51621' dateline='1402141758'sorry i am off topic, just had me wondering
I don't leave the lights on too long or coins under them very long.
May as well put this up here. Bought this as an NGC MS64 and apparently it had been in an NGC MS65 holder but was cracked out for some unknown reason and resubmitted and was downgraded a point. IMHO I think the coin is a technical low end MS64 but the toning would likely give it a boost at PCGS. Expecting it to come back an MS64 with an outside chance (20%) of a plus or MS65. This coin is for my own collection and only being re-submitted because I want it in a PCGS holder with the rest of my 1901 GB coins.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/great-britain-1901-2s-ex-ngc-ms64.jpg)
Quote from: 'markn' pid='51672' dateline='1402190725'May as well put this up here. Bought this as an NGC MS64 and apparently it had been in an NGC MS65 holder but was cracked out for some unknown reason and resubmitted and was downgraded a point. IMHO I think the coin is a technical low end MS64 but the toning would likely give it a boost at PCGS. Expecting it to come back an MS64 with an outside chance (20%) of a plus or MS65. This coin is for my own collection and only being re-submitted because I want it in a PCGS holder with the rest of my 1901 GB coins.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/great-britain-1901-2s-ex-ngc-ms64.jpg)
Nice coin Mark, agin this is a classic example of NGC coin could crossover higher at PCGS.. but this is the minority ! Please let us know how you go...
Here's another one that's just arrived for our little rupee hoard. It's in an NGC MS63 holder. We're debating whether to crack it out or not and send it to PCGS because there's nothing glaringly obvious about it that is holding it back to an MS63. Any opinions?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/india-1918c-rupee-ngc-ms63.jpg)
The only thing that I notice is the die crack on the top of the obverse.
That shouldn't make one iota of difference to the grade.
I can't see any hits or dings to cut it back to MS63.
Hey Folks,
I have rekindled this thread to provide some more examples of crossed over NGC coins...
The 1943 S Sixpence from the benchmark collection was recently auctioned on NumisBid. This coin was auctioned by IAG in 2015 as a MS66 coin with realised value of $920 + commission(lot 251). Same coin is now graded MS65 and realised $950.
So another example to the data set.
Cheers...
well, here are my results for ngc to pcgs all one submission
26 coins - 25 predecimal ; 1 x GB 1/-
22 crossed over same grade
1 - up 1 point
1 - down 1 point
1 - down 2 points
1 - dnc cleaned - the GB 1/-
i was happy that the 3 higher value coins crossed
Quote from: 'duggee27' pid='93165' dateline='1469341645'well, here are my results for ngc to pcgs all one submission
26 coins - 25 predecimal ; 1 x GB 1/-
22 crossed over same grade
1 - up 1 point
1 - down 1 point
1 - down 2 points
1 - dnc cleaned - the GB 1/-
i was happy that the 3 higher value coins crossed
Excellent, thanks duggee... I have 2 more coins in US at the moment. Will post the results when I get it.
I personally think you have done much better than the average crossover sucess rate. Did you send them to US in NGC holder or were they cracked open ?
This one will be heading over to PCGS in a few weeks as is in the NGC slab but as it is currently
graded at MS65BN I doubt that it will upgrade.I will however be happy with equal or down 1 grade
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/31d_28300x29829.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/31c_28300x29729.jpg)
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='93168' dateline='1469343653'This one will be heading over to PCGS in a few weeks as is in the NGC slab but as it is currently
graded at MS65BN I doubt that it will upgrade.I will however be happy with equal or down 1 grade
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/31d_28300x29829.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10137/31c_28300x29729.jpg)
Nice coins Stevo, good luck with it.. would you send it as is or planning to send it as a raw coin out of the slab ?
I intend to do the opposite .
I have a few coins that PCGS have graded recently that I disagree with their assessment of that I will be cracking out and will be sending to NGC.
If these come back from NGC at the grades that I expect them to I will then send them back to PCGS for crossover.
This will be an interesting exercise I think :angel:
Before anyone wants to tell me that I will be wasting my money and it wont improve the saleability of the coins, Don't , I am already aware of that and that isn't why I want to do this :ok:
Quote from: 'ausproofs' pid='93170' dateline='1469344565'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='93168' dateline='1469343653'This one will be heading over to PCGS in a few weeks as is in the NGC slab but as it is currently
graded at MS65BN I doubt that it will upgrade.I will however be happy with equal or down 1 grade
Nice coins Stevo, good luck with it.. would you send it as is or planning to send it as a raw coin out of the slab ?
I have cracked them out in the past but going to send this one as is
Excellent, thanks duggee... I have 2 more coins in US at the moment. Will post the results when I get it.
I personally think you have done much better than the average crossover sucess rate. Did you send them to US in NGC holder or were they cracked open ?
[/quote]
these were submitted in their NGC holders as recommended by my dealer and this was early 2015
Quote from: 'duggee27' pid='93186' dateline='1469364426'Excellent, thanks duggee... I have 2 more coins in US at the moment. Will post the results when I get it.
I personally think you have done much better than the average crossover sucess rate. Did you send them to US in NGC holder or were they cracked open ?
these were submitted in their NGC holders as recommended by my dealer and this was early 2015
[/quote]
Thank you for that.
Regardless of which TPG has graded a coin it is vitally important to examine the coin itself and not simply rely on the grade stated on the slab.
ALL TPG's can and do make mistakes from time to time :ok:
So next time you see a graded coin at a bargain price, ask yourself why is this so cheap and have a real good look at the coin before you make a decision that you would have made purely based on the grade stated on the slab.