Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='45840' dateline='1396657262'Quote from: 'trout' pid='45839' dateline='1396657055'....I am not an error collector so the Mule is not a requirement for my Dollar set....
It's not an error (but was made in error) but a variety, you may need to rethink this trout! Subject for another thread......
I don't know that I would agree with that as, to me, it is an error coin. PCGS defines an error coin as:
error
A numismatic item that unintentionally varies from the norm. Ordinarily, overdates are not errors since they were done intentionally while other die-cutting "mistakes" are considered errors. Double dies, planchet clips, off-metal strikings, etc. also are errors. An error may occur because of either a mechanical or human failing. In this instance it was a human failing because they inserted the wrong die. By the PCGS definition it is an "unintentional variety" hence an error. If it was intentional then I would agree with Markn.
I know I'm putting a great deal of weight on PCGS definitions (but we have to start somewhere) and they describe the mule (and I think we all agree it is a mule) as:
Mule Error
This is a rare Mint error where the obverse die is of one coin and the reverse die is of another coin. The most famous of the Mule errors is a Sacagawea dollar/Washington quarter Mule, where a Washington quarter obverse is paired with a Sacagawea reverse. (my emphasis)
I agree with PPH and call it a variety and don't care much what PCGS think or say about it. Apart from the degree of centering each mule is the same as the next so they are not unique (which in my mind an error must be).
Personally I find the distinction between a "variety" and an "error" one of the most irksome definitions in numismatics. When does an "error" become a variety? When there are two the same? Three? Five? Ten? Of course there's no hard and fast definition. So, to me, if there's one, it's an error, if there's more than one and they are practically identical (in the same way that normal circulation coins are identical) then it's a variety.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='45858' dateline='1396661342'I agree with PPH and call it a variety and don't care much what PCGS think or say about it. Apart from the degree of centering each mule is the same as the next so they are not unique (which in my mind an error must be).
Personally I find the distinction between a "variety" and an "error" one of the most irksome definitions in numismatics. When does an "error" become a variety? When there are two the same? Three? Five? Ten? Of course there's no hard and fast definition. So, to me, if there's one, it's an error, if there's more than one and they are practically identical (in the same way that normal circulation coins are identical) then it's a variety.
I disagree that an error has to be unique. If a worker doesn't tighten a collar die and we have 10 consecutive coins (or 20 or 1000) minted "out of collar" with similar degrees of offset then would they be a variety coin or an error coin?
I agree with your comment about "irksome definitions". There was a similar discussion on this forum not long ago about whether the 2005 MoR was a "mule" or not and that would come down to a defn of a mule. Existing defn's varied depending on what resource was used.
But we do have to start somewhere. I think there is some variance between Canada and USA about what constitutes a mule. Do we start a uniquely Australian definition?
I also agree with PP.
A planchet flaw is an error a strike through is an error these are normally single coin events.
6000 single events make the 2000 mule a variety to me, Same as the "Bubble" 20 cents.
Agreed that most varieties are created in error but when there many many coins that have the same features Must make them a variety.
look at the Canadian coins with the die cracks on the one cent coins known as Hanging "Varieties"
I 've always considered the Mule to be an error,the reason is because the first thing i ever read about the coin & how it happened said the the worker put the ten cent die in "in error" , so with that wording i figured it to be an error coin.
Quote from: 'accumulator' pid='45867' dateline='1396663185'I 've always considered the Mule to be an error,the reason is because the first thing i ever read about the coin & how it happened said the the worker put the ten cent die in "in error" , so with that wording i figured it to be an error coin.
Then SOME of the 2005 MOR coins are errors. Because some were made in error. Oh and when they found out they made some deliberately and those are NOT errors. So in one hand I have a 2005 MOR coin that was made in error. And in the other I have one that was made deliberately. Is either of them an error? No. So, not all coins made in error (or by mistake) are errors. And the 2000 mule, while made in error, is not an error. Or that's what I think at least :).
Quote from: 'markn' pid='45858' dateline='1396661342'Personally I find the distinction between a "variety" and an "error" one of the most irksome definitions in numismatics.
Indeed. And don't forget "flaws". In fact, we've covered this ground in quite some detail not that long ago. I'm not going to write it all again though
(you're all glad to hear that, aren't you?). Just search for "flaw" and you'll find the thread.
The mule is a variety, because although an unintended pairing, there are no errors on the dies. The incused flag is a variety, because again, there are no errors on the dies. Rabbit ears and bubbles and so on are errors, because the dies are damaged. And of course rips and splits and cold shuts are flaws, being unique individuals.
Neffendi mentioned:
Thanks Steve for PCGSs definition of this mule as an error rather than a variety.
What do they classify the mules that may have been intentionally made?
I'm thinking of the Bahamas/NZ mule that was reportedly made as a protest against staff cuts at the Royal Mint, or those mules made for the collector market by corrupt staff (has happened at Canberra on multiple occasions).The "intention" of pairing different dies was something discussed in the other thread and there was no real outcome.
I can't put my finger on it at the moment but one of the websites I consulted did draw a distinction between intended/unintended pairings and even considered the officially sanctioned pairing of different die as being a mule. I think the examples they quoted were several centuries ago when the correct die was not available so the mint deliberately used a similar die from another coin in lieu.
So, for some, the intention to pair dies is a consideration but not to everyone as is the question of whether the pairing is one permitted my legislation or policy.
No clear answer.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45874' dateline='1396663620'there are no errors on the dies.
I agree but the error was in the use of the die.
I think if we got back into that discussion we would all come out still no wiser.
No doubt there has to be some physical attribute of the coin that would make it an "error". How that error occurs whether by mechanical or human failing doesn't concern me.
OTOH I also agree it is a variety but being a variety doesn't exclude it from being a variety made in error (if you know what I mean).:dodgy:
It is considered accepted practice to refer to a mule as a mule; i.e. it is a separate category.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='45885' dateline='1396668109'It is considered accepted practice to refer to a mule as a mule; i.e. it is a separate category.
Well, yes and no.
On one hand, everybody knows what you mean when you say mule. On the other hand, its a pretty lonely category, with only a handful of members. Variety works on both counts, though there is probably no need to refer to it as a "mule variety". ;)
And yes Mark, I do know what you mean. :)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45905' dateline='1396676269'. On the other hand, its a pretty lonely category, with only a handful of members. Variety works on both counts, though there is probably no need to refer to it as a "mule variety". ;)
And yes Mark, I do know what you mean. :)
You must have big hands to hold the hundreds of different mules. England has had 3 in the past decade. Same with the US and Canada. I know of mules from dozens of countries and a number of centuries.
Australia has at least 5 mule coins that I know of and that isn't including the 55-56 pennies that many collectors call mules.
then they sometimes get called 'hybrid'
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='45909' dateline='1396677136'You must have big hands to hold the hundreds of different mules.
Yeah, yeah... I forgot to specify Australia... so shoot me! :P
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/scrooge.jpg)
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='45917' dateline='1396681238'(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/scrooge.jpg)
This is a friendly place so that would be friendly fire:angel:
And outsiders don't realise how passionate coin collectors can be about their hobby.
From my understanding a "Variety" is a coin with a deliberate design change and not a Mistake or damaged die product.
For example all the various mintmarked dollar coins and the counter stamped coins are a variety .
Even the incused Millennium is a deliberate design change.
So strictly speaking the Mule is an error, even though there are thousands of them along with many other mass produced errors.
I cannot see why there is a problem calling a spade a spade, it makes no difference whatsoever.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45947' dateline='1396735722'From my understanding a "Variety" is a coin with a deliberate design change and not a Mistake
Well, no, intent has nothing to do with it. If you put salt in my coffee instead of sugar
(yes, I've done this) it makes no difference if it was a mistake or you were being a smartarse.
A mistake leading to a variety is no different from a deliberate decision. Except maybe the quantities involved are smaller and therefore more desirable, especially if the mistake is discovered and corrected.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45973' dateline='1396752686'Quote from: 'trout' pid='45947' dateline='1396735722'From my understanding a "Variety" is a coin with a deliberate design change and not a Mistake
Well, no, intent has nothing to do with it. If you put salt in my coffee instead of sugar (yes, I've done this) it makes no difference if it was a mistake or you were being a smartarse.
A mistake leading to a variety is no different from a deliberate decision. Except maybe the quantities involved are smaller and therefore more desirable, especially if the mistake is discovered and corrected.
Now I am confused.
The mintmark and counterstamp coins are and were deliberately designed and minted to create a variety within that issue, these are definitely variety's.
Coins created by mistake By the very nature of their creation they would have to be errors.
Error is a similar word to mistake .
Just because a mistake is made several times it is still a mistake/error
I think Feathers has the right idea and simply call this a "Mule" and make it a category of its own with all the other Mules created worldwide :ok::)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45978' dateline='1396753493'Error is a similar word to mistake .
Therein lies the problem. They sound interchangeable, but they're not.
Lets take an example we can all agree on...
The incused flag is a variety. No doubt, right?
Now, suppose for a moment that reverse was intended for a different coin. I dunno, say a special release by the Real Millennium Society or whatever. The dies are made and stored for the upcoming production run of specimen coins, which will have the correct 2001 date for the real beginning of the millennium. Then some guy makes a mistake and sticks one in a press and produces Incused Flag Mule 50¢.
Because of the similarity of the design, quite a lot are shipped before anyone realises. So to cover it up, the specimen 2001's are never produced as originally intended.
A
Mistake was made.
A potential
Mule was created.
(Just like in 2005)A
Variety was released.
No
Error resulted from this mistake.
See my point now?
I have no problem simply calling a mule a mule. I do have a problem calling it a mule
error though, because its not.
QuoteI do have a problem calling it a mule error though, because its not.
Nor is a strictly a variety.
It is fact a MULE simple as that :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45995' dateline='1396757380'QuoteI do have a problem calling it a mule error though, because its not.
Nor is a strictly a variety.
It is fact a MULE simple as that :)
A mule is never as simple as that.
Nobody can really agree on what counts as a mule. Are the 55-56 penny mules really mules? Those dies were not intended to go together (at the planning stage) but they were also used by the staff as they were indifferent to the plan as they were perfectly usable dies.
And if the 55-56 coins are called mules by most people then why not the '27 Indian or other die pair varieties (like the '77 CofA 50 cents)?
QuoteAnd if the 55-56 coins are called mules by most people then why not the '27 Indian or other die pair varieties (like the '77 CofA 50 cents)?
:agreed:
Why not indeed :good:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45998' dateline='1396758995'Why not indeed :good:
Perhaps because there is more than a little marketing PR involved? Made worse, I would argue, by the reluctance of the mint to fess up.. or at least hold proper records.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='46004' dateline='1396762504'Quote from: 'trout' pid='45998' dateline='1396758995'Why not indeed :good:
Perhaps because there is more than a little marketing PR involved? Made worse, I would argue, by the reluctance of the mint to fess up.. or at least hold proper records.
I would think that if the wrong dies were used to mint a coin then it would be a Mule regardless of what the Mint or the PR people have to say about it :ok:
Two penny dies but, not intended to go together; two $1.00 dies but never planned to go together. Ended up being used together. Mule or not? And, if the mint officials decide to continue striking after the "error" is noticed does that make a difference?
I think we have had this discussion in depth before and are now starting to go around in circles!My opinion, for what it's worth, is that arguing semantics is not going to achieve anything once a particular error/variety/fault etc. has been commonly called by a particular name or description. Once the name has stuck; that's what it is regardless of what anyone thinks it should be called. That is a common characteristic of the English language -useage decides meaning and any number of dictionaries make not a whit of difference.
Quote"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Through The Looking Glass; Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll)
Very philosophical and a great example Jeff!!!
I was going to go down the tomato, potato path, but really got sidetracked when I found out there is a TOMTATO!!!! (true).
I think the forum designers have had it sown up by having a single section for "Errors and Varieties".
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='46013' dateline='1396766590'I think we have had this discussion in depth before and are now starting to go around in circles!
I'll have to think about that, not procrastinate mind you. :angel:
Plenty of Round tuits for sale on eBay. You must check them out one day!
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='46013' dateline='1396766590'that's what it is regardless of what anyone thinks it should be called. That is a common characteristic of the English language -useage decides meaning and any number of dictionaries make not a whit of difference.
Quote"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Through The Looking Glass; Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll)
Twisting the English language sounds double plus good to me:dodgy:
This thread IS purely a discussion about semantics regarding the 2000 Mule coin and it's designation as a error/variety.
It is what it is. :ok:
It is also a rather good "Red herring" to keep the discussion about as to why this coin is marketed and sold at an inflated value when it is NOT a rare coin but scarce one.
From what I can ascertain there are 6,000 to 8,000 of these out there, I tend to go with 6,000 because Feathers is NO idiot.
What I cannot understand is why a bashed and brutalised one of these still commands a price of $400 or upwards . :angel:
Why does this coin in a battered state demand such a price: Easy, supply and demand me thinks.
There may be 6,000 or more of these coins about and not all finds have been publicised. I would presume about 1/3 to 1/2 of finds have been publicised and people who want one will pay to secure one regardless of the price.
I sold one approx. two years ago that was advertised as a "road kill" Mule on EBay and there were other Mules on EBay at the same time that were much better than mine. I got $593.00 for my "road kill" and that was far in excess of the price achieved by others.
If people want one then they will pay top dollars to secure one. I will not refuse the money that they offer.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='46029' dateline='1396772862'If people want one then they will pay top dollars to secure one. I will not refuse the money that they offer.
Troutski, you never play musical chairs when you were a kid????
If there are more people than there are chairs, not everybody can sit down. Its as simple as that. And if there are six thousand or six million mules, and six thousand and one or six million and one people chasing them, then they will start bidding against each other...
You of
ALL people should understand that thoroughly, given your course reversal in certain other areas based on market dynamics.
As Goldy said, not all of them have been found, nor made available. There may be 6,000, but a large slice are MIA or tightly held. Some by people with truckloads of them. So when you want one to complete your collection, what ya gonna do?
1,700 1930 pennies is only scare, not rare as well. But the difference is they're not circulating and have all been found, unless stashed back in the day and forgotten. And they're worth a heck of a lot more than $400, aren't they?
My view is that if you want a compete collection, you need both. Therefore not every collector can have a complete collection. And that's a good thing. The hobby
needs 1930 pennies and mules, and a whole lot more. If they didn't exist, we'd be forced to create them. We need more collectors, and this is what brings them in. Not NCLT that halves in value, not rabbit ears or broadstrikes or slabbed MS68's. People get interested in potential fortunes in their pockets. The rest can come once they're hooked.
Who cares about what category this 2000 $1 coin with a 10c die used on obverse is.
The coin is real and circulated,different from same dated 2000 circulated.
Any circulating variety coin is always great to chase and to find one is about as good as it gets.
I still haven't found this 2000 "mule" nor a 66 wavy base 20c but have found just 1 2001 Federation $1 upset and the potential is still there to find these in circulation...now that is what excites me as a collector ... not caring about grade whatsoever
Quote from: 'runway' pid='46064' dateline='1396789891'Who cares about what category this 2000 $1 coin with a 10c die used on obverse is.
The coin is real and circulated,different from same dated 2000 circulated.
Any circulating variety coin is always great to chase and to find one is about as good as it gets.
I,m with runway on this one. Who cares! I'm a greyhound, just give me something to chase:yahoo:
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='46072' dateline='1396838268'Who cares!
While it makes no practical difference what you call it, it does make a difference in some peoples minds. The
"I don't collect errors" crowd for example, who do however collect varieties.
The only one I need to personally find now id the 1966 Wavey Line. I shall not be looking for these for some time yet.
As others have said, it's the chase that gets me excited and when I do find one, then it even more exciteable.
Probably doesn't make a great deal of difference except for consistency. At the moment we can't even define with any certainty what constitutes a "mule" so whether it's an error or a variety is of less significance.
It's possible for the same characteristic to be classified differently in the USA, Canada, UK and Australia and probably others.
I think the absence of a consistent and recognized classification system reflects a lack of maturity in the field of numismatics. How can we use scientific methods to identify varieties/errors but not have a system to describe them?
Quote from: 'Steveqld' pid='46082' dateline='1396853553'I think the absence of a consistent and recognized classification system reflects a lack of maturity in the field of numismatics. How can we use scientific methods to identify varieties/errors but not have a system to describe them?
Fair comment. There's lots wrong with numismatics, and much of it comes down to the people in it being for the most part not scientists or researchers. While it might be OK to dumb down some things to the lowest common denominator
(TV, Road Laws, Politics...), we should in most fields of endeavour be trying to raise the bar instead.
Anyway, drifting way off into off-topic-land here... :dodgy:
[/quote]
While it makes no practical difference what you call it, it does make a difference in some peoples minds. The "I don't collect errors" crowd for example, who do however collect varieties.
[/quote]
Ah them n those huh! So long as we're all doing whatever it is that makes us happy :angel: Personally, errors don't do it for me , but throw one in with a variety and you've got me :dodgy:
Errors or varieties ... whatever is different are an exciting part of numismatics