Hi, not sure if anyone has posted a thread on this before, as I can't find it using the search option, but can anyone shed light on the high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.
An image of the obverse and reverse side of an Unc $1 with some coloured highlights to demonstrate those areas would be great, if anyone is kind enough to post. If we could also consider making it a sticky post for others to use as a reference tool, that will also be much appreciated.
Cheers..
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45494' dateline='1396397818'...high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.
Presumably you mean standard MoR's?
I doubt anyone's ever given it much thought really. They're plentiful in UNC for all issued years, and nobody really cares about grading circulated examples.
But I'm happy to be proven wrong. ;)
:welcome: G and hope you enjoy the site mate, you could do a little test your self and get a little roller or put some paint on some paper and just touch the coin and see where they are or a really rough way would be to run something hard across the face and see where it marks it, cheek and crown are norally some of the higher points that wear first and that goes for pre-decimal as well, as for the roo's no idea sorry but I might have to test them my self :winkextra:
:welcome: to the forum.
With the roos I normally look to see if the top roo's eye can be seen. Then perhaps wear on the 3rd roo's face. But, in saying that I've seen UNC examples where the top roo's head is featureless, so they might be weak strikes etc.
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45494' dateline='1396397818'Hi, not sure if anyone has posted a thread on this before, as I can't find it using the search option, but can anyone shed light on the high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.
Cheers..
just get a bit of sand paper lay it flat & rub the coin over it a few times.
That'll show you.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='45536' dateline='1396421217'just get a bit of sand paper lay it flat & rub the coin over it a few times.
That'll show you.
And as a bonus, you can list the resulting
"Rare Mint Error" on FeePay and make a fortune! :dodgy:
Welcome to the forum Guest1595.:wavemulticolor:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45498' dateline='1396399583'Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45494' dateline='1396397818'...high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.
Presumably you mean standard MoR's?
I doubt anyone's ever given it much thought really. They're plentiful in UNC for all issued years, and nobody really cares about grading circulated examples.
But I'm happy to be proven wrong. ;)
2000 Mob of Roos Mule.:angel:
Sheldon Graded of course.:idea:
_____________________________________________________As most are saying you either collect Unc or Circulated.
The metal that the Aussie circulation coins are made of is tough.
Contact marks are the worst offenders than wear.
A 2011 Light Circulation
The high points to the Tiara are first.
Then as circulation continues the wear radiates.
Just a touch on high points of tiara on this example.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0013_2-800_zpsd171b8b3.jpg)
ReverseWear generally starts at main Roo's hip.
The Mint damage and security company handling are pretty bad.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0008_2-800_zpsf032cf90.jpg)
Close up of area, mostly contact wear at this early stage.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0008_2-crop-800_zps2019d61c.jpg)
A well circulated, also 2011 reverse
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0003_3-crop-crop_zps2aa17d35.jpg)
Great post Rob!
Yes thanks for your informative post Rob.... I'm sure this would help all those who collect the Yr 2000 $1 mules as well, in terms of verifying gradings on ebay etc...
Have always wondered how sellers have come up with the grading of the $1 mules... Whether it's mainly based on wear or bag marks..
And thanks all for the warm welcome..
mmm now your sort of talking about something a bit different as there's a lot that makes a coin, eg how centred it is also come into it when talking about mules :winkextra:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45565' dateline='1396441811'mmm now your sort of talking about something a bit different as there's a lot that makes a coin, eg how centred it is also come into it when talking about mules :winkextra:
Hi ausjack, from what i've read, I always thought that a perfectly centred mule will attract a premium in price, but the underlying grade will remain unchanged...hence, the importance of knowing what to look for ( high points which are prone to wear) when grading these circulated $1 coins.
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='45544' dateline='1396429268'The Mint damage and security company handling are pretty bad.
Good post, great pics mate.
G, apologies if I sounded flippant, I didn't mean to be. But certainly wear is nowhere near the issue it is on predecimals.. the shocking bagmarks we see on almost all coins is far more detracting IMO, as the pics clearly show.
Oh, and welcome to the forum.. That name threw me, didn't look like a member name.. :angel:
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45562' dateline='1396441255'Yes thanks for your informative post Rob.... I'm sure this would help all those who collect the Yr 2000 $1 mules as well, in terms of verifying gradings on ebay etc...
Have always wondered how sellers have come up with the grading of the $1 mules... Whether it's mainly based on wear or bag marks..
And thanks all for the warm welcome..
Hi ausjack, from what i've read, I always thought that a perfectly centred mule will attract a premium in price, but the underlying grade will remain unchanged...hence, the importance of knowing what to look for ( high points which are prone to wear) when grading these circulated $1 coins.
Sorry didn't realise you were buying mules off ebay that aren't slabbed but still graded or are you trying to grade it, I'm a bit lost in your question now sorry :scratch_one-s_head:
Guest, from what I can remember, most of the early ones you purchased had a lot of lustre so it will be a bit easier. Wear will show a little earlier on the obverse so look for a change of colour on Her Majesty's cheek due to the first bit of metal missing due to wear.
I've indicated the area here:
(http://www.stuartandersen.com.au/dollar/Mule134_o0001.JPG)
yeah that's what I was talking about, thanks for that Peter :good:
Fulvio, no worries....no offence taken and thanks for the warm welcome...
Ausjack, my main reason for asking is so i can grade some of the mules i have myself and to create a resource here for others with regards to grading mules, in particular those unslabbed.... Also, the grading houses in the US, namely NGC and PCGS also have different grading to what we use here. Hence, being able to grade coins, in particular the $1 mules would help collectors of $1 mules alot.
Emu, thanks for your excellent reference material... One question that I have is, besides the cheek area on the queen's effigy, do any of the queen's hairline or tiara show wear early on ( i.e are they the other high points as others have suggested ?). Also, if it's not too much trouble, are u able to post a similar scan showing high points which wears first on the Reverse side ? Many thanks in advance....
In addition, if any forum member have access to photos of $1 mules of different grade and are able to post them in sequential order from choice Unc right down to Fine, I think that would make excellent grading reference materials for present and future $1 mule collectors alike....
Cheers all...
this is what I call a full centered mule ..
double click on the picture to enlarge it . ,, kel ,,
[attachment=2729]
this all seems a bit pointless than as there's not that many "collectors" of mules as most people here have found theirs so your doing something for your self so maybe make up a pdf or what ever it is they call it so you have it at a click of a button or put it in the wiki as that's what it was meant for, well I think that's what it is meant for and as for you grading well you can just grade it what ever you like because that's all the dealers will do because if they're honest they will tell you that it might not come back the grade they said it would or even bodybagged and it has happened just ask some members here..there's a few here that can get close to pcgs and ngc grading like Mark, Walter, Eric, Peter and a few other so post a pic of ya coins and see what they say but keep in mind it's very hard to go off pic's and you'll find other posts on here about that as well :winkextra:
Nice mule there Kel :good:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45586' dateline='1396477832'this all seems a bit pointless than as there's not that many "collectors" of mules
I'll kinda go along with that.
I found mine, and everybody I know who has one (or 40-odd...) found theirs. I don't think I know anyone who bought one, and grades are irrelevant. Its a mule, one of maybe the second-rarest aussie coin ever, and any mule is desirable, regardless of condition. Plus, remember it was four years before they were spotted. There are what, six UNC examples out there?
Sorry mate, but I put the hair splitting down to as pointless an excercise as it is with 1930 pennies. Completely irrelevant to 99.9% of collectors, most of whom would never own either.
At the end of the day, centering is the most important factor with these coins. So that further narrows the scope, as a given coin must be compared with similarly-centred examples, not the entire population.
I have 2 Mule Dollar coins, neither of which I found. One I traded, the other I must have bought, as I know I've never found one.
I might be lucky enough to find one one day but I won't hold my breath, but I know I won't buy one at the prices they are asking as I can't come at that game for a dollar coin, yeah rare but I can buy a lot of other coins for just one of them :)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45593' dateline='1396498180'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45586' dateline='1396477832'this all seems a bit pointless than as there's not that many "collectors" of mules
I'll kinda go along with that.
I found mine, and everybody I know who has one (or 40-odd...) found theirs. I don't think I know anyone who bought one, and grades are irrelevant. Its a mule, one of maybe the second-rarest aussie coin ever, and any mule is desirable, regardless of condition. Plus, remember it was four years before they were spotted. There are what, six UNC examples out there?
Sorry mate, but I put the hair splitting down to as pointless an excercise as it is with 1930 pennies. Completely irrelevant to 99.9% of collectors, most of whom would never own either.
At the end of the day, centering is the most important factor with these coins. So that further narrows the scope, as a given coin must be compared with similarly-centred examples, not the entire population.
Sorry but i would have to respectfully disagree.... From an investment point of view, grading is an important and predominant factor and is reflected in the price one pays to buy or offers to sell....surely, if grading didnt mean anything, then people selling mules should all offer them at the same price.... I understand that bag marks, or any other distracting marks can and often will, reduce the price of the said coin. And with the $1 mule, how centered it is can increase the value within that particular grade, as can attractive patina, lustre and toning of the coin.
If grading doesn't carry any weight, then it is pointless for people like Greg McDonald to attempt to publish price guides for different grades of all the coins and banknotes listed in his book.
sounds like you have a few and could post pics of your mule $1 coins and then maybe those pics could also be reference material for a mule grading by photograph for the wikie here in the ACF ?
I think that guys are saying that the variety and the centering of HRM is the spectacular part of the said variety and then at the grade value comes after that, as it always does with all of the rare to scarce error coins
in the pre-decs, say for example, 1955 y 'mule' in unc will command more $$ than the same coin in average circ,
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45606' dateline='1396509943'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45593' dateline='1396498180'Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45586' dateline='1396477832'this all seems a bit pointless than as there's not that many "collectors" of mules
I'll kinda go along with that.
I found mine, and everybody I know who has one (or 40-odd...) found theirs. I don't think I know anyone who bought one, and grades are irrelevant. Its a mule, one of maybe the second-rarest aussie coin ever, and any mule is desirable, regardless of condition. Plus, remember it was four years before they were spotted. There are what, six UNC examples out there?
each to their own mate but totally agree about the books :winkextra:
Sorry mate, but I put the hair splitting down to as pointless an excercise as it is with 1930 pennies. Completely irrelevant to 99.9% of collectors, most of whom would never own either.
At the end of the day, centering is the most important factor with these coins. So that further narrows the scope, as a given coin must be compared with similarly-centred examples, not the entire population.
Sorry but i would have to respectfully disagree.... From an investment point of view, grading is an important and predominant factor and is reflected in the price one pays to buy or offers to sell....surely, if grading didnt mean anything, then people selling mules should all offer them at the same price.... I understand that bag marks, or any other distracting marks can and often will, reduce the price of the said coin. And with the $1 mule, how centered it is can increase the value within that particular grade, as can attractive patina, lustre and toning of the coin.
If grading doesn't carry any weight, then it is pointless for people like Greg McDonald to attempt to publish price guides for different grades of all the coins and banknotes listed in his book.
Yes of course grading matters but not as much with AU grades as with MS so I don't get it sorry, what are you talking about investment and grading..buy one already graded if you have a problem and can't grade or take them to a dealer and ask them to grade them or like I said post some pic's and I'm sure the team will help if they can, but each to their own mate as most here are collectors and not investors but totally agree about the books..prices go up and down like a brides nighty :winkextra: If you are looking to buy post a link and someone will tell you if you should or shouldn't buy :good:
yeah I agree in the sense that its not so much I believe about the monetary value its more that they are rare and highly looked upon. I personally haven't found one but, and yes I agree grading does certainly matter but the amount that its centred is a higher priority. btw if I come across rude please let me know :) welcome to the forum!
eerr aj
"but each to their own mate as most here are collectors and not investors but totally agree about the books..prices go up and down like a brides nighty "
beg to differ about the investors - I reckon there are a lot of them here
agree about the book values tho - I think most markets are like brides' nighties - all you have to have are deep pockets and a bit of competition for a desired item and the hammer prices go way way over 'book values'- and it often doesn't have to necessarily be a rarity either
& g'day young coops!!
"
Quote from: 'Cooper S' pid='45624' dateline='1396515631'yeah I agree in the sense that its not so much I believe about the monetary value its more that they are rare and highly looked upon. I personally haven't found one but, and yes I agree grading does certainly matter but the amount that its centred is a higher priority. btw if I come across rude please let me know :) welcome to the forum!
Nice to hear from you coops.
That is an interesting idea. But please consider this.
Which coin would you prefer?
This one
(http://www.thesandpit.net/Mule/Mule_centred_o.JPG)
or
(http://www.thesandpit.net/Mule/SuperMule_o.JPG)
Then please scroll down
-----------------------------------------
The first sold on ebay for $750; the second was graded MS64 by PCGS and sold to a dealer for $12,500.
thought this was about coins, not investments or has collecting become purely investment only and if so there goes my hobby and I may as well go to SS or one of the other sites that are more for investors :cray: And so many here have said DON'T think you'll make money from our hobby unless you have the money and know how to spot the bargins or were they lying..it's all moot anyway so where are my drugs :winkextra:
and if we're talking investment we are no longer talking about a hobby or are we :scratch_one-s_head:
Sorry AJ.
I was really considering which was more desirable.
I was waiting for that Peter :laugh2: as this was talked about not so long ago ;)
If you have the money to invest why would you buy a mule or any coin for that matter, not a wise investment as you then need some fool with very deep pocket that's into coins and going off this site alone there's no where near enough people in our hobby/investment :)
All good, Peter :friends:
well it depends on how deep your pockets are as to what one to get, with the later coin going for over half my yearly income I think it's a no brainer and the other is a fortnights pay so it too is out :(
Actually most of the collectors with huge disposable incomes are not (to my knowledge) members of this forum.
For example; if you look at the top PCGS sets in the predecimal series, there is not one forum member leading any of the sets.
(I manage third in the threepences, but most of those coins were bought more than 10 years ago when I did have a large disposable income).
I do know a few of those collectors with large disposable incomes and I would not consider them fools. Enthusiastic or very enthusiatic or even overly enthusiastic.
I'm not sure but from my understanding there's a lot of yanks with our top of the pop coins
Getting back to the OP's question :ok:
Regardless of whether it is a $1 coin or a 10 cent coin all the same grading points remain the same, Strike , Wear , State of preservation , Lustre and eye appeal Simple as that. :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45651' dateline='1396520033'I'm not sure but from my understanding there's a lot of yanks with our top of the pop coins
The "Repatriator" is doing his level best to redress this situation and if I may add doing quite well at restoring the balance :yahoo:
GOOD on ya Steve :wavemulticolor:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45651' dateline='1396520033'I'm not sure but from my understanding there's a lot of yanks with our top of the pop coins
That turns out not to be the case.
I know of one who lives in the U.S. but he is Australian.
the bottom line is
both of those mules - once upon a time were purchased as one dollar coins
the astute collector - selects them out
then the art of it all sets in
a novice pre-decimal collector might throw a 1923 halfpenny back into the penny lot and put it up on ebay and get his $50 for the coins
the experienced collector will find that 1923 and flog it off for what ever he or she can get - the grade and how you sell it then comes into play
top dollar collectors - yes are often investors but it doesn't mean that they aren't collectors as well.
but yeah AJ, the PCGS business can get you down a bit because you think - I have to have big bucks to buy that - no, you develop your collecting skills and you obtain that high grade or scarce/rare coin through general collecting, learning and developing the eye for it - that is the back end way into maybe sometimes getting those expensive rarities for your own collection
http://www.pcgs.com/Pop/ValueView.aspx?s=506638
doesn't matter as I'll never own one unless I can find it, this is what makes me think collecting is all bullshit if you get into the "I must have it" idea as I just can't play that game..maybe if I didn't get screwed and actually got some compo maybe but not in my current boat :(
nah mate
time
let time and patience be your friend
i'm still dreaming of finding that 1930 penny in a junk lot of pennies
dreaming ...... and dreamin ... ha ha
there are all sorts of collectors in numismatics
you just be the kind of collector that you want to be
most importantly - enjoy it!!
I love nothing more than fossicking around with a 10 or so kilo bag of pennies
keeps me out of mischief for months!
ausjack wrote : "like I said post some pic's and I'm sure the team will help if they can"
Okay I'll bite...here's a few shot of one that's in my stable.... first image to show the underlying luster and the other two for details...
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/Mule_001_-_obv_01.jpg)
sorry but I don't know how to make it blow up to a decent size so anyone who can, please feel free to re-post my shots ( Edit: Have managed to figure it out with Fulvio's help...cheers mate !)... Also apologies for the poor images...just took it with my iphone5 with incandescent lighting ...daylight would be alot sharper...
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/Mule_002_-_obv_01.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/Mule_001_-_rev__01.jpg)
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45584' dateline='1396475330'Fulvio, no worries....no offence taken and thanks for the warm welcome...
Ausjack, my main reason for asking is so i can grade some of the mules i have myself and to create a resource here for others with regards to grading mules, in particular those unslabbed.... Also, the grading houses in the US, namely NGC and PCGS also have different grading to what we use here. Hence, being able to grade coins, in particular the $1 mules would help collectors of $1 mules alot.
Emu, thanks for your excellent reference material... One question that I have is, besides the cheek area on the queen's effigy, do any of the queen's hairline or tiara show wear early on ( i.e are they the other high points as others have suggested ?). Also, if it's not too much trouble, are u able to post a similar scan showing high points which wears first on the Reverse side ? Many thanks in advance....
In addition, if any forum member have access to photos of $1 mules of different grade and are able to post them in sequential order from choice Unc right down to Fine, I think that would make excellent grading reference materials for present and future $1 mule collectors alike....
Cheers all...
If you go to the Forums Gallery section , top right of screen, and go to GOLDSEEKERS postings, you will see quite a few different grades of Mules that I have found and posted.
Guest, there's a website run by a collector with images of PCGS-graded mules in the various grades:
http://www.dollarmule.com.au/id2.html
(The link from AJ is also good, tohugh.)
If you'd like your mules graded, send me a message and we can talk.
Eric
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45668' dateline='1396524690'sorry but I don't know how to make it blow up to a decent size
Use the gallery... its the easiest way. You can then post inline images with the img tag, which will display at full size.
Lovely coin, and the pics aren't bad either.
Now, as to grades and investments... oh my, where to start?
For the most part, we're coin collectors here, not money collectors. Yes, grading affects demand and competition and drives up prices... hence the $12k mule vs the $750. But does it really matter what that cheaper coin grades at? Clearly its not MS, and that's pretty much the end of the story, really. A single grade may make a huge difference at the top end of town, but the majority of these things are well circulated, and grade isn't the major factor.
And even if we're talking about an MS coin, what
we grade it at is irrelevant anyway, since people are buying the slab and not the coin. Much has been written about slabbing, so I won't rehash it here. Suffice to say slabbing has little to do with coin collecting, and much to do with money collecting. ;)
People collect what they want to collect.
at the price they want to pay.
Back to what the original poster was asking.
People often undergrade circulated decimal coins. I believe people confuse "wear" with "length of circulation". Cupronickel and aluminium bronze can circulate for a long time before showing much wear. Most of the 1966 dated coins still in circulation are still close to very fine in grade; it is uncommon to find any lower than fine in grade. If you consider the "1921 hoard" (which in spite of the name must have been put away early in 1922) had few silver coins earlier than 1916 in very fine and almost all the 1910-1912 dated coins were only VG.
The grade of a circulated coin is determined entirely by the amount of detail lost due to circulation. This does not really take into account how much lustre remains or the eye appeal of the coin.
Eye appeal does of course affect the value of the coin (this is even true for early silver coins; a VF 1915 florin that has some lustre remaining will sell for more than one with the same wear that has no lustre).
I have seen a number of 2000 $1/10c mules, correctly graded as AU58 as they are touched off on the obverse, that are more attractive than ones graded as MS62 that have only underlying lustre.
Remember we've got a thread about why some collectors chase the good coins and why some don't bother (http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=2390) so please keep that sort of conversation in there. This thread is an excellent resource and I'd prefer it if the usual suspects kept their opinions on collecting preferences in the thread it belongs in.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45637' dateline='1396518145'thought this was about coins, not investments or has collecting become purely investment only and if so there goes my hobby and I may as well go to SS or one of the other sites that are more for investors :cray: And so many here have said DON'T think you'll make money from our hobby unless you have the money and know how to spot the bargins or were they lying..it's all moot anyway so where are my drugs :winkextra:
and if we're talking investment we are no longer talking about a hobby or are we :scratch_one-s_head:
Replied in this thread (http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=2390).
[/quote]
The "Repatriator" is doing his level best to redress this situation and if I may add doing quite well at restoring the balance :yahoo:
GOOD on ya Steve :wavemulticolor:
[/quote]
Thanks for the vote of confidence mate and its interesting to note that if you are lucky you can pick
up a top of the pops coin very cheaply as many of the overseas sellers dont know what they have as I
have found
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45562' dateline='1396441255'Yes thanks for your informative post Rob.... I'm sure this would help all those who collect the Yr 2000 $1 mules as well, in terms of verifying gradings on ebay etc...
Have always wondered how sellers have come up with the grading of the $1 mules... Whether it's mainly based on wear or bag marks..
And thanks all for the warm welcome..
Sent all of mine to PCGS as they are too hard to nail down a grade
IMO
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='45683' dateline='1396545101'Guest, there's a website run by a collector with images of PCGS-graded mules in the various grades:
http://www.dollarmule.com.au/id2.html
(The link from AJ is also good, tohugh.)
If you'd like your mules graded, send me a message and we can talk.
Eric
Hi Eric, thanks for the info.... Whilst i am not looking to get my mule coin formally graded or slabbed, i am keen to learn how the circulated decimal $1 coin is graded with respect to wear. I believe Walter has some really good info on his website or on ebay; i forget which, whereby he teaches people how Australian sovereigns and half sovereigns of each era wear with respect to high points and provide images with those areas highlighted... I found that really useful !
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45688' dateline='1396551779'Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45668' dateline='1396524690'sorry but I don't know how to make it blow up to a decent size
Use the gallery... its the easiest way. You can then post inline images with the img tag, which will display at full size.
Lovely coin, and the pics aren't bad either.
Now, as to grades and investments... oh my, where to start?
For the most part, we're coin collectors here, not money collectors. Yes, grading affects demand and competition and drives up prices... hence the $12k mule vs the $750. But does it really matter what that cheaper coin grades at? Clearly its not MS, and that's pretty much the end of the story, really. A single grade may make a huge difference at the top end of town, but the majority of these things are well circulated, and grade isn't the major factor.
And even if we're talking about an MS coin, what we grade it at is irrelevant anyway, since people are buying the slab and not the coin. Much has been written about slabbing, so I won't rehash it here. Suffice to say slabbing has little to do with coin collecting, and much to do with money collecting. ;)
Fulvio, thanks for the gallery tip...will try and add it in there later and repost those coins at proper size for easier viewing in this thread...
As for your question "does it really matter what that cheaper coin grades at? " and assertion that " the majority of these things are well circulated, and grade isn't the major factor."
In my opinion, yes it matters what the non mint state (Below Unc) $1 mule coins grade at.. It matters to me and i think many other buyers as well, and even sellers. I believe that grading was designed as a means of communication amongst fellow coin collectors, so that even before looking at a particular coin, they would roughly know what to expect to find... As an example, with the George V copper series, it's commonly accepted that a VF coin should show on the obv side, the King's crown with pretty much intact upper and lower bands, a clear and complete diamond plus 6 pearls...anything slightly less and it's often graded aVF and if traces if the 7th and 8th pearl is there, its gVF... These traits/ landmarks are often used on George V Australian predecimal coppers as they are some of the highest points which wears first.
Hence, by having a rough idea of high spots and their level of wear, one can often come up with a grade. Knowing how to grade coupled with images of the coin, will provide the buyer with sufficient info in their decision making of how much they are willing to offer for that coin and whether they think they are getting it for a fair price or not. Too often sellers overgrade, or dont know how to grade and just put any willy nilly grading on their coin, and i believe by helping others on here, myself included, we can all make better and informed buying decisions.
For sellers and those looking to sell, by knowing how to grade, they too can convey the state of wear of their mules more accurately and coupled with photos when selling, would be able to avoid misunderstandings with potential buyers. A win-win for all I'd say...
This has been the intention of my post from the beginning and i'm hoping we could establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45494' dateline='1396397818'Hi, not sure if anyone has posted a thread on this before, as I can't find it using the search option, but can anyone shed light on the high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.
An image of the obverse and reverse side of an Unc $1 with some coloured highlights to demonstrate those areas would be great, if anyone is kind enough to post. If we could also consider making it a sticky post for others to use as a reference tool, that will also be much appreciated.
Cheers..
:scratch_one-s_head: so how did this become about mules when the question was about $1 coin..something funny going on here :dodgy:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45711' dateline='1396571185'Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45494' dateline='1396397818'Hi, not sure if anyone has posted a thread on this before, as I can't find it using the search option, but can anyone shed light on the high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.
An image of the obverse and reverse side of an Unc $1 with some coloured highlights to demonstrate those areas would be great, if anyone is kind enough to post. If we could also consider making it a sticky post for others to use as a reference tool, that will also be much appreciated.
Cheers..
:scratch_one-s_head: so how did this become about mules when the question was about $1 coin..something funny going on here :dodgy:
It always was.
That was why Mr Guest raised the topic.
And what do you mean by something dodgy?
Please explain yourself
Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='45726' dateline='1396576592'Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?
Yes, it applies to both.... Some people had a dig at me earlier when i asked about grading $1 MoR, as circulated samples are not worth much and those who collect them all choose Unc and above samples for their collection... For now, the only situation where it would be of use would be for the $1 mules, unless another major error is made by the mint with respect to MoR $1 coins.. (Fingers crossed)... :-)
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45704' dateline='1396566803'establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.
I'm not arguing that knowing what to look for is a bad thing. Its not. For all denominations, not just the $1. Knowledge is always good.
What I'm arguing is that it isn't really important for decimals vs predecimals. According to PCGS, there are 400 mules. I don't believe them, as we've pretty much deduced there's an order of magnitude more than that. But its still a tiny population. In which it very much comes down to the individual coin, not whether its half a grade more or less worn. Except for the slabbed ones of course. For which its PCGS's opinion that counts, not ours.
Grading is far more important for predecimals, where the populations are far higher. Not a lot of early coins got hoarded in UNC, so its more important to split hairs over coins that spent 40 years jingling around in pockets. That's not the case for most decimals, where high grades are easy to come by, making it a pretty pointless excercise, at least for now.
Even for the mules, its equally pointless. As a collector, any mule is desirable. As an investor, its all about value, and that means slabbing. So grading becomes a matter of
"is this coin good enough to spend the slabbing fees on?". For which the answer is certainly
"yes" if you found it and want to sell it. So the only people left to care must be those who bought or are looking to buy a raw coin, with a view to slabbing and reselling. A minute subset of both collectors and mule owners, I reckon.
Anyway, I'm clearly at odds with everyone else, so I'll shut up now. :angel:
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='45726' dateline='1396576592'Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?
Yes but there is a small difference. The obverse of a mule will wear slower than the obverse of a normal dollar coin as the design is protected a little more by the higher outer rim.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45738' dateline='1396579065'Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45704' dateline='1396566803'establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.
I'm not arguing that knowing what to look for is a bad thing. Its not. For all denominations, not just the $1. Knowledge is always good.
What I'm arguing is that it isn't really important for decimals vs predecimals. According to PCGS, there are 400 mules. I don't believe them, as we've pretty much deduced there's an order of magnitude more than that. But its still a tiny population. In which it very much comes down to the individual coin, not whether its half a grade more or less worn. Except for the slabbed ones of course. For which its PCGS's opinion that counts, not ours.
Grading is far more important for predecimals, where the populations are far higher. Not a lot of early coins got hoarded in UNC, so its more important to split hairs over coins that spent 40 years jingling around in pockets. That's not the case for most decimals, where high grades are easy to come by, making it a pretty pointless excercise, at least for now.
Even for the mules, its equally pointless. As a collector, any mule is desirable. As an investor, its all about value, and that means slabbing. So grading becomes a matter of "is this coin good enough to spend the slabbing fees on?". For which the answer is certainly "yes" if you found it and want to sell it. So the only people left to care must be those who bought or are looking to buy a raw coin, with a view to slabbing and reselling. A minute subset of both collectors and mule owners, I reckon.
Anyway, I'm clearly at odds with everyone else, so I'll shut up now. :angel:
Hi Fulvio, thanks for your inputs.... it's always good to have other people's perspective so no need to stay quiet. I see where you are coming from, but at the same time I still don't believe that just because decimal coins are hoarded, and Unc samples are easier to come by, that grading has no place for those types of coins. Whilst it is true for the common type decimal coins where people could hoard huge amounts in Unc, the example I have used, being the $1 mule, I don't believe people could hoard them in Unc grades... If I had to guess, I don't think there would be more than 10 samples in true Unc or above grades.
And the fact that the first $1 mule was not discovered 2-3 years since it left the mint, the majority of them would have seen circulation and a fair few enjoyed the slippery dip rides within poker machines over in W.A. That may not be as long the the 40yrs or so that some of the predecimal coins endured in circulation, but it's enough that a variety of grades exist for the $1 mules ( with the bulk being in the gVF/aEF or below grades) .... hence why I think it's good to know how to grade them..
Practical examples of where it would be useful would be if a collector wanted to add one to his/her collection but have been unlucky in finding one ( as many would have been plucked from circulation by active $1 mule hunters since 2003). The only way then would be to buy it off places like ebay, dealers or auction houses. And if they were to bid on a "raw" example, knowing how to grade would help a buyer make better informed decisions.
There are also those who may already have a $1 mule in their collection and wanting to upgrade to a higher specimen... If they didn't know how to grade, how would they know they were truly getting the grade they paid for, especially if unslabbed. As a side note, not all investment grade and high end coins are slabbed, as you will see if you attend the major coin auctions...
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='45739' dateline='1396580158'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='45726' dateline='1396576592'Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?
Yes but there is a small difference. The obverse of a mule will wear slower than the obverse of a normal dollar coin as the design is protected a little more by the higher outer rim.
Hi Emu, I didn't know about that.....thanks for sharing..
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45741' dateline='1396580871'If they didn't know how to grade, how would they know they were truly getting the grade they paid for
Making this a much broader topic than $1 mules, no?
Improving grading skills is a desirable objective, and one we should all be striving for. No argument there. But the best way to get there? Big piles of predecimals, without any shadow of a doubt. Once learned, the skills are fully transferrable to anything struck in a press anywhere, anytime.
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45741' dateline='1396580871'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45738' dateline='1396579065'Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45704' dateline='1396566803'establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.
I'm not arguing that knowing what to look for is a bad thing. Its not. For all denominations, not just the $1. Knowledge is always good.
What I'm arguing is that it isn't really important for decimals vs predecimals. According to PCGS, there are 400 mules. I don't believe them, as we've pretty much deduced there's an order of magnitude more than that. But its still a tiny population. In which it very much comes down to the individual coin, not whether its half a grade more or less worn. Except for the slabbed ones of course. For which its PCGS's opinion that counts, not ours.
Grading is far more important for predecimals, where the populations are far higher. Not a lot of early coins got hoarded in UNC, so its more important to split hairs over coins that spent 40 years jingling around in pockets. That's not the case for most decimals, where high grades are easy to come by, making it a pretty pointless excercise, at least for now.
Even for the mules, its equally pointless. As a collector, any mule is desirable. As an investor, its all about value, and that means slabbing. So grading becomes a matter of "is this coin good enough to spend the slabbing fees on?". For which the answer is certainly "yes" if you found it and want to sell it. So the only people left to care must be those who bought or are looking to buy a raw coin, with a view to slabbing and reselling. A minute subset of both collectors and mule owners, I reckon.
Anyway, I'm clearly at odds with everyone else, so I'll shut up now. :angel:
Hi Fulvio, thanks for your inputs.... it's always good to have other people's perspective so no need to stay quiet. I see where you are coming from, but at the same time I still don't believe that just because decimal coins are hoarded, and Unc samples are easier to come by, that grading has no place for those types of coins. Whilst it is true for the common type decimal coins where people could hoard huge amounts in Unc, the example I have used, being the $1 mule, I don't believe people could hoard them in Unc grades... If I had to guess, I don't think there would be more than 10 samples in true Unc or above grades.
And the fact that the first $1 mule was not discovered 2-3 years since it left the mint, the majority of them would have seen circulation and a fair few enjoyed the slippery dip rides within poker machines over in W.A. That may not be as long the the 40yrs or so that some of the predecimal coins endured in circulation, but it's enough that a variety of grades exist for the $1 mules ( with the bulk being in the gVF/aEF or below grades) .... hence why I think it's good to know how to grade them..
Practical examples of where it would be useful would be if a collector wanted to add one to his/her collection but have been unlucky in finding one ( as many would have been plucked from circulation by active $1 mule hunters since 2003). The only way then would be to buy it off places like ebay, dealers or auction houses. And if they were to bid on a "raw" example, knowing how to grade would help a buyer make better informed decisions.
There are also those who may already have a $1 mule in their collection and wanting to upgrade to a higher specimen... If they didn't know how to grade, how would they know they were truly getting the grade they paid for, especially if unslabbed. As a side note, not all investment grade and high end coins are slabbed, as you will see if you attend the major coin auctions...
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='45739' dateline='1396580158'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='45726' dateline='1396576592'Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?
Yes but there is a small difference. The obverse of a mule will wear slower than the obverse of a normal dollar coin as the design is protected a little more by the higher outer rim.
Hi Emu, I didn't know about that.....thanks for sharing..
My pleasure.
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45668' dateline='1396524690'ausjack wrote : "like I said post some pic's and I'm sure the team will help if they can"
Okay I'll bite...here's a few shot of one that's in my stable.... first image to show the underlying luster and the other two for details...
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/Mule_001_-_obv_01.jpg)
sorry but I don't know how to make it blow up to a decent size so anyone who can, please feel free to re-post my shots ( Edit: Have managed to figure it out with Fulvio's help...cheers mate !)... Also apologies for the poor images...just took it with my iphone5 with incandescent lighting ...daylight would be alot sharper...
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/Mule_002_-_obv_01.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/Mule_001_-_rev__01.jpg)
great pics
thanks for giving it a go
and ps - that coin looks like a nice higher grade $1 MOR's to me
Okay, after much deliberation, I have decided to sacrifice a perfectly good Choice Unc 2013 MoR $1, in the name of science to test out how and where the wear occurs....
This experiment was done using 240 grit sandpaper and short 7-8cm strokes on a flat surface with light to medium pressure with my hand.
Below was the good looking specimen before mutilation....Liz may not be happy with the end results, but all for a good cause in helping us numismatists gain knowledge and insight (hopefully)....
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Unc_-_Obv_004.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Unc_-_Obv_002.jpg)
Now for the mutilation... stage 1 after 10 rubs shows light wear which starts at the angle of mandible (lower jaw) muscle insertion area.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_stage_1_-_Obv_002.jpg)
Rubbing for another 5 strokes brings us to stage 2, where we can see wear to not only the angle of mandible but also to the cheekbone and cheek muscle area. ( Sorry about the poor out of focus shot but sunset was creeping in and I had to hurry to finish off the experiment..)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_stage_2_-_Obv_001.jpg)
By the time that I got to the 20th stroke, we get to stage 3 of wear and it looks similar to that of stage 2 but more pronounced.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_stage_3_-_Obv_001.jpg)
I then decided to give it a good rub and doubled the amount of strokes to 40 and we get really noticeable wear which extends to from her cheekbone to include the temple area. Other worn areas include the eyebrow, tip of nose, a tad of lower lip and lower chin, plus earlobe involvement, and light scuffing to parts of her curls. We now also see faint traces of involvement to her neck muscles.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_stage_4_-_Obv_002.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_stage_4_-_Obv_004.jpg)
The Reverse side was also done... here are the before shots...
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Unc_-_Rev_001.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Unc_-_Rev_002.jpg)
I found the reverse a lot more resilient to wear as after 40 rubs, it got to this only :-
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_Stage_1_-_Rev_001.jpg)
Here, we see only the slightest hint of wear to the last (5th) kangaroo in the pack right at the top. The faintest smudge appears on it's upper mid torso.
I then needed to do a further 40 more strokes of sanding ( 80 in total by now ) to get anywhere near this (which I have named stage 2) :
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11156/2013_MoR_Wear_Stage_2_-_Rev_001.jpg)
By stage 2, we can see wear which extends to include the thigh muscle of the 5th roo, thigh to 4th roo; the face, midback and left arm of the 3rd roo. There is also wear to the tip of tail of the 2nd roo plus very slight marks to it's hip area.
I conclude from this that the Reverse side either has very low relief for the roos or the rims are quite high ( I suspect more likely the former)....
So there you have it folks.... the way a MoR $1 coin wears... And it's the obverse that is a lot more susceptible to wear than the reverse side, I think also mentioned by others earlier on...
Hope this helps newbies in the future with their grading of the $1 mule....
Quote from: 'Guest1595' pid='45895' dateline='1396671891'Hope this helps newbies in the future with their grading of the $1 mule....
Excellent work on all counts
(pity about the light/focus)! And condolences to the coin's family... it gave its life for science, and should be nominated for an
Order of the Lab Rat medal. :dodgy:
wonder if carbon paper could produce similar results?
but like what the dentist does when looking for wear
shopping behaviours have changed a lot but I thought too, that coins were also worn by being slid across shop counters and bars at hotels when change was returned to the customer
good to see the file wear there Guest - an interesting exercise (good thing it wasn't a 2000 $1 mule or there would be plenty of tears in the forum today!! ha ha
Ten points for effort and pics there Guest.
I'm pretty sure that most of the circulation wear would result from contact with other coins (of all sizes). Considering the shape of same I don't think wear would be as evenly distributed as your test suggests as the amount of flat coin on flat coin circulation wear would likely be just a part of it. Curved / angled edge to flat coin surely has a large impact.
Just a thought.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='45912' dateline='1396678256'I'm pretty sure that most of the circulation wear would result from contact with other coins (of all sizes).
Agreed. Overall, I think we're really messed up when it comes to wear. Bag marks get ignored, yet we go all OCD over wear... WTF? To me, impact damage is the single largest factor, especially now rolling machine scrapes are mostly out of the picture. And honestly, the quality of what comes out of an UNC bag is deplorable. Yet such a coin would grade MS whereas a brilliant circulated half-century-old coin with massive eye appeal and little wear would not.
Bah!
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='45672' dateline='1396525510'If you go to the Forums Gallery section , top right of screen, and go to GOLDSEEKERS postings, you will see quite a few different grades of Mules that I have found and posted.
Thanks for the reference Gold, and a nice collection of mules that you have in your stable ! I also notice that alot of them have battlescars..were they predominantly from poker machine duties ?
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='45765' dateline='1396594308'great pics
thanks for giving it a go
and ps - that coin looks like a nice higher grade $1 MOR's to me
Thanks RG,.... And yes I agree... It's not too shabby a MoR... Hopefully a keeper! ;-)
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='45912' dateline='1396678256'Ten points for effort and pics there Guest.
I'm pretty sure that most of the circulation wear would result from contact with other coins (of all sizes). Considering the shape of same I don't think wear would be as evenly distributed as your test suggests as the amount of flat coin on flat coin circulation wear would likely be just a part of it. Curved / angled edge to flat coin surely has a large impact.
Just a thought.
Thanks for the compliments Unicorn and others..
I also agree that the wear would not be as evenly distributed. My main aim in showing those wear marks is to demonstrate the vulnerable areas prone to wearing.. This is due to them being the highest points on the coin. On top of this wearing effect, usage through circulation will more than likely add further bag marks and rim knicks too..
All one needs to do is grab a well circulated coin and have a look.
(And there is no need for it tobe a 2000 $1 mule)
Once the rims wear the coin is exposed to circulation wear.
The tiara area
The hair line area
The Queens eyebrow, nose tip and lower lip
Jowl of cheek area
Base of neck
The legend.
Note that on this coin a rim bump
is protecting part of the legend.
It's not rocket science.
The challenge is to grade what you see.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0004-crop-800_zps974082cb.jpg)
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='45968' dateline='1396750153'The challenge is to grade what you see.
I'd go a step further and say that the challenge is also to know what you're looking at. Which of course is where the forum comes in.
For example, quite a lot of $1 obverses especially seem to be weakly struck or filled. I've met people who thought this was wear until they learned the difference.
And remember the lengthy cold shut/PMD discussion a while back? :)