Referencing this article:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-26/oldest-australian-bank-note-fetches-record-price/5347938
An early Bank of NSW 10 shilling note just sold for $333,900 of which Noble's (19.25%) took their cut of $53,900. They got to keep $49,000 of this and the tax man gets $4,900.
In November 2005 it sold for $283,095 of which Noble's (16.5%) took their cut of $40,095. They got to keep $36,450 of this and the tax man got $3,645.
So we've got three stakeholders here who have seen their "investment" grow in the 13 years and 5 months since this note sold the last time. How much has each "investor" seen their "investment" grow in this time?
Note Owner : Annualized return of 1.1%pa.
Tax Office : Annualized return of 2.3%
Noble Numismatics: Annualized return of 2.3%
So if we put aside all the excuses of the owner of the auction company about why the note achieved a low price he's still managed to more than double his return on the note compared with the poor bugger who owned it. I guess that person can count themselves lucky that they bought the note in 2005 before note prices got really out of hand (in 2009-2011). No doubt he/she would be staring a hefty loss in the face rather than earning rather less than bank interest which his "investment" managed.
Of course this is all assuming that there was no sellers premium for this note, which, I'll give the benefit of the doubt about. Headline items like these usually have those fees waived.
so out of the 2 sales the seller lost $50,805 and Nobles Made an after tax profit of $85,450.
No wonder Auction houses and coin dealers get bad names .
A fee of 85k to sell 2 items is quite frankly bloody ridicules , right up there with Lawyers , used car salesmen and estate agents :dodgy:
We're in the wrong game.
The % return on turnover made by ebay or auction houses is more than I make. Coin dealers are going broke left right and centre because they are expected to draw wages on less than 4% net return. These margins are getting tighter with discounters, increased online costs etc. I hate to say it but the hobby is going backwards. There will be a day, and not too far off, that people will be saying "I remember coins shops" or even "what is a coin shop".
Are you certain that 16.5% is charged uniformly on all items? My understanding is that many auction houses have a sliding scale with a lower percent on big ticket items that bring in interest to the auction and attract the other sellers to list with that auctioneer.
you can sometimes negotiate a rate....but this is getting harder and harder to do
QuoteNo wonder Auction houses and coin dealers get bad names .
this comment was not aimed at owner operator b&T dealers Shane but the big players like Downies etc.
I know trout.....it just stings others make more for the gear you own
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='44966' dateline='1395888403'I know trout.....it just stings others make more for the gear you own
that's just the way of the world Mate.
We spend our time toiling in the dark and the mud trying to ekk a living just so the "Fat Cats" can spend their days in the Sun :dodgy:
NO matter what asset you have scrimped and saved for, When you go to sell it some creep will want their cut out of it (Including the bloody tax man)
It's even worse than that from the owner's point of view.
In 2005 he stumped up the entire $283,095 (ie price plus buyer's premium), but he now receives $280,000 (ie total less buyer's premium), so has actually made a loss. And if he is up for any selling commission, then he's made a bigger loss.
John
This is where I find things a bit rich. I fork out my money to buy something. It is irrelevant if I make a return or not...that depends on the market. However I have forked out my hard earned dollars. If I sell to a dealer the dealer forks out his money. The dealer budgets on 20 to 30% at most. The point is he has forked out his money. An auction house, without paying for an item, makes 30 to 40%. So lets say you are selling a $100 item. The mint made a profit of around 20% after manufacturing costs...but they owned it. The dealer that sold it to you made 20%...but they owned it, the auction house made 40%. The biggest profit went to the auction house and they never owned the item.
yes I agree, no risk, no real liability but the greatest return on investment (eg auction, advertising, security cost)
auction houses make way to much money for what they do
I have no problem with them covering costs and making money....they have to support themselves. I would be interested to know their % return on expenditure
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='44958' dateline='1395886049'people will be saying "I remember coins shops" or even "what is a coin shop".
Been there, done that. Years of blood, sweat and tears, and every penny you ever owned, all disappeared thanks to the collective actions of your customers. Who, as it turns out, were actively working against their own self-interest as well.
Perhaps stupidity is the natural human condition.
We should all think about things more, and choose who we support more wisely. Yeah, right... *sigh*
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='44986' dateline='1395897520'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='44958' dateline='1395886049'people will be saying "I remember coins shops" or even "what is a coin shop".
Been there, done that. Years of blood, sweat and tears, and every penny you ever owned, all disappeared thanks to the collective actions of your customers. Who, as it turns out, were actively working against their own self-interest as well.
Perhaps stupidity is the natural human condition.
We should all think about things more, and choose who we support more wisely. Yeah, right... *sigh*
I make a conscious effort to only buy from B&M dealers when I can.
I suggest that more of us do the same instead of trying to save 1c in the dollar (If That) and support these Businesses. :ok:
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='44959' dateline='1395886063'Are you certain that 16.5% is charged uniformly on all items? My understanding is that many auction houses have a sliding scale with a lower percent on big ticket items that bring in interest to the auction and attract the other sellers to list with that auctioneer.
When it's buyers premium yes. It's the sellers premium which is unknown which might vary depending on the vendor agreement. I would certainly be requesting a lower % fee if I were consigning a big ticket item, the auction house gets more and it's an attractive item in the sale getting buyers in.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='44989' dateline='1395898085'I make a conscious effort to only buy from B&M dealers when I can.
:agreed:
Though many make it hard, and not just by being shonky either.
But yes, find a good dealer (unlikely you'll find more than one locally), and support him (or her?) as much as possible.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='44995' dateline='1395899775'Quote from: 'trout' pid='44989' dateline='1395898085'I make a conscious effort to only buy from B&M dealers when I can.
:agreed:
Though many make it hard, and not just by being shonky either.
But yes, find a good dealer (unlikely you'll find more than one locally), and support him (or her?) as much as possible.
I have NO local dealers whatsoever, I live in a numismatic Wasteland.
I do however have had dealings with many great Coin shop operators around the Country and I deal with these kind people online.
Rule of thumb for me is if they don't have a physical shop and only online based I will normally give then a miss.
These are the people that put the biggest investment into their business and are actively helping to promote numismatics as a whole.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='44996' dateline='1395900347'Rule of thumb for me is if they don't have a physical shop and only online based I will normally give then a miss.
Paying off a landlord's mortgage doesn't make someone better. It makes them poorer.
I have no problem with people who don't have physical shopfronts. I had three, and they bloody well ruined me! I wish I'd had the option back then for a virtual presence.
Yes, I like to sit and examine things in my hand and chat. And you meet the nicest people
(even the odd forum member!)... but if distance is the enemy, there is nothing wrong with supporting a good dealer, regardless of a physical presence you're never going to see anyway.
Quoteeven the odd forum member!
that's not nice Mate, I thought we were just "Different" Not "Odd" :laugh2: :)
What I am getting at is the B&T dealers have a Physical presence and people can see the coins and maybe get an interest in them from these shops.
An internet shop does nothing to show the general public what numismatics is all about.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45004' dateline='1395902138'that's not nice Mate
I'm
not nice.. who told you I was? :dodgy:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45004' dateline='1395902138'What I am getting at is the B&T dealers have a Physical presence and people can see the coins and maybe get an interest in them from these shops.
An internet shop does nothing to show the general public what numismatics is all about.
All things being equal, that's a fair comment. But how many dealers have you visited? And how many were places you'd ever want to return to?
I can think of three that are still in business. One of them is here in Melbourne. But I can think of many who do the hobby a great disservice, because even the greenest babe-in-the-woods eventually wises up.
And I don't agree about internet shops doing nothing. You need look no further than our own PPH for a great example of how to do things right online
(yeah, Mark too I guess... LOL!).
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='45008' dateline='1395902992'And I don't agree about internet shops doing nothing. You need look no further than our own PPH for a great example of how to do things right online (yeah, Mark too I guess... LOL!).
Uh gee thanks for the backhanded compliment there Fulvio :P
Areas where a coin dealer disappears finds the collecting community disappearing within a few years.... That is a fact
umm do the collectors really disappear or are they like me and a few others that live in the bush and we just have to travel great distance or search the net but I hear what your saying as it might put people off if a local dealer shuts down, either way it's not good for our hobby :(
Quote from: 'trout' pid='45004' dateline='1395902138'Quoteeven the odd forum member!
that's not nice Mate, I thought we were just "Different" Not "Odd" :laugh2: :)
What I am getting at is the B&T dealers have a Physical presence and people can see the coins and maybe get an interest in them from these shops.
An internet shop does nothing to show the general public what numismatics is all about.
While B&M shop owners often say this, it is far from true. An internet shop can spread the hobby far more than any B&M dealer can simply due to reach. Through the Blue Sheet I've introduced the joys of coin collecting to so many new collectors, I'm sure between Australian-threepence and Andrew Crellin's blog many more new collectors were born.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='45180' dateline='1396046453'I'm sure between Australian-threepence and Andrew Crellin's blog many more new collectors were born.
:agreed:
I have to admit my own interest was rekindled some years ago by the excellent TNS newsletters:
http://www.vision.net.au/~pwood/aprilnews.html
well I have never see any coin or stamp collection promotion in my life and wish I did as a kid but I just collected coin that I hadn't seen and any stamps from any letters I could find from about the age of 8 to 12 then I joined the surf club so that put an end to that until I got hurt and went through rehab so think they should promote more in the schools and hope that a few carry it on :)
no body is mentioning coin shows
they also foster the hobby and add a fun type of atmosphere for a day out and lazy hazy viewing times