This was in a bulk buy of Silver,i always check for the elusive overdate and found what appears to be something under the last 2,its not a 1 and appears not to be a re-entered date. Any thoughts?,anyone seen this before or is it just a normal 1922 3d?. TIA
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope.jpg)
Until someone else puts up a reason, I would say an ordinary 1922 Trey (Threepenny) piece.
That's just a normal 1922 threepence...sorry.
Thanks for replies,i've had the USB Microscope for a couple of years now but its the first 1922 i've looked at,previously i just used a Loupe to check for the overdate and never noticed the oblong block sitting under the tail of the 2.
Dog with a bone here,i'm sure there is something under the last 2 or its time to give coining away.
Photo of Coin followed by standard 1922 3d,
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Microscope.jpg)
Standard 1922 3d.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_2nd_EG_.jpg)
I don't know much about them sorry Basil but AC does and she showed me what to look for with the overdate but it doesn't look like one from here sorry but when she comes on she might be able to help :good:
Yeah AJ,its not a 21 overdate but its not a normal one either,may be a different die to the majority of the 1922 mintage,but i've had a look(not thru a Microscope thou.) at dozens of 1922 3d's over the years and i've never seen that final 2.It looks like the the top half of a 2 underneath with some sort of 1 extending at an angle from it.
Thoughts anyone or do i make a booking for the retirement home...LOL.
Basil, I can see what you are describing but I am at a loss for an explanation.! Checked my spares but nothing vaguely similar.! :dontknow:
I can also see something there. To be honest, it looks more like the remains of a 3. Who knows, you may have stumbled across an unknown overdate, if that's what it would be called with the underneath digit one year later.
Can you wind your scope out to do a really large close up. If you're unsure how to do it, let me know & I'll see if I can take you through it.
An overdate?:huh:
You don't need to go to a retirement home. You should have gone to Specsavers:tease:
OK there is something there but not likely to be anything important.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='42104' dateline='1392705017'I can also see something there. To be honest, it looks more like the remains of a 3. Who knows, you may have stumbled across an unknown overdate, if that's what it would be called with the underneath digit one year later.
Can you wind your scope out to do a really large close up. If you're unsure how to do it, let me know & I'll see if I can take you through it.
I'm scratching my head to think of a single example of a die struck with the previous years hub after being struck with the new year. I don't think the position of the 3 in relation to the 2 would end up with the "fault" under the loop of the 2.
IIRC it was for the 1924 coinage that the mint carried out work on redating hubs so I don't even think it could be explained by experimentation.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='42104' dateline='1392705017'I can also see something there. To be honest, it looks more like the remains of a 3. Who knows, you may have stumbled across an unknown overdate, if that's what it would be called with the underneath digit one year later.
Can you wind your scope out to do a really large close up. If you're unsure how to do it, let me know & I'll see if I can take you through it.
Thanks Nancy,i'll have another go at a close up,but the Microscope is an Ebay cheapie and i thought i had the close up at Max.
Thanks for all the replies but i'm sure there is part of a 2 or 3 sitting under there with what looks like to me like a thin bar going off at an angle under the tail of the 2.
I'll try and get some better Microscope shots Tomorrow but from this one it looks like a 3 underneath with the lower hemisphere going around the tail of the 2. Very Strange whatever it is.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_1922_2.jpg)
I tried to get some super close ups but the image blurs when i press the capture button,i'll have to get a stand that holds the microscope more securely.This is the best one.Looks like the top of a 2 or 3 under the top but has a single rod running thru the bottom of the 2 and a thicker bar under the tail of the 2???.I 'dunnoe' but there is something under there compared to a normal 1922...help....
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/22_3rd.jpg)
Looks like there's something under there. Could be a three. Got a pic of a 1923 3d we can overlay on it?
This is a 1923 3d Mark at approx. the same resolution as the last 2,it doesn't seem to correlate in any way.
I think the 1922 may be from some test/experimental(?) die as the 2,to my eyes, is slightly different to a normal 1922 3d. I am convinced there is something there,it depends on what angle and resolution you view it from as to what it is.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/good_33.jpg)
Quotethe image blurs when i press the capture button
You should be able to do a capture from the software. Kaiser Baas is F11 or "Capture" in menu bar.
The software for My KB displays a Button that can be clicked with the mouse and there's absolutely no movement of the image.
This is the top left corner of the KB software I have. I simply click on the left icon. Oops, sorry, off topic.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/34ozjna.jpg)
Could be an early stage of die errosion,
I have this one.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/1922_Fat2_zpsb3cf9b26.jpg)
I just checked all 9 x 1922 3d's I have and none of them show anything under the 2nd 2. :cray:
Thanks(many) Jeff & Nancy,downloaded SW from KB and it works with my no=name Ebay Scope,that will make life easier,í'll try and get a better close up of the 2.
I'm fairly certain i've never seen a final 2 like it before and i've checked a lot of 1922 3d over the years with a Loupe,what attracted my attention was the bar hanging out of the tail and i threw it to one side to check when i next had the Scope out.
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='42190' dateline='1392783210'Could be an early stage of die errosion,
I'm just don't know Rob. other than there is something there.Your final 2's are a bit closer to my coin than standard ones.
When you compare a regular 1922(top coin) to mine it looks like its a different die as the 2 is similar but different,thicker base on my coin.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_Side_by_Side.jpg)
I spent this afternoon trying to get a better shot of the 2 but most have come out worst than i have already posted.I included some shots of both sides and the date,if anyone in the Months ahead read this and have an opinion please post.The people i have shown the scans to so far think it looks like the top loop of a 2 or 3 but like myself have no idea what the bar and rod sticking out of the tail is.TIA.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_overdate.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_overdate001.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_1234.jpg)
I'll buy a better Microscope down the track and try again with the super close ups.
Keep up the good work Basil!
I know that "trying to get the right photo" feeling, it drives me nuts when you can't!
I can see what you mean all through this thread but can't explain what it is either.
Soldier on!
Thanks,i've been told its more likely to be unused 1913 die than a 1923 but i don't even know if they had any tooled any for that year.Anyway i'm in no hurry and will see what happens.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='42336' dateline='1392956869'Thanks,i've been told its more likely to be unused 1913 die than a 1923 but i don't even know if they had any tooled any for that year.Anyway i'm in no hurry and will see what happens.
Hi Basil. There is almost no chance that a 1913 die would have been involved. Until 1916 the silver was all struck in London so how would a die dated 1913 end up in Melbourne. I checked over on Jon Saxtons website and for 1922 threepences he notes that Melbourne received 2 hubs dated 1922 early in 1922 and had 4 or 5 dies dated 1921 (no mention of any older dies)
The obverse "might" have some clues. There is a dot next to the lower bar of E in REX, also a dot between the top of MP in IMP, possible lines at the bottom of the Is in IND IMP. They might just be fluff or dust or they might be tiny die markers. If die markers then sort through a heap to find others.
If you find others then odds are they will share the same reverse. Then you can see if there is truly something there and hopefully get a better idea what it is.
Good luck.
Hi Neal..,yeah doubtful at least, the guy that suggested 1913 is over 80 but knows a lot about Coins and seems to think a lot of the London tooling came out here after the war. I contacted Jon and he asked to see some scans/snaps so will have to wait see what happens there.
I never noticed the Obverse dots before(preoccupied with the 2),seems to be several and also seems to be a slightly different Obverse to a normal 1922,eg,the F of FD seems to be slightly out .I don't have a 1922 ordinary eg with a decent Obverse,mine are all worn heavily,this is the best i can do.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_Obverse_EG_.jpg)
I've been thinking about this over the last few days and I think a more likely explanation is simply die wear. Chips of the die coming off of the corners of the 2 giving the impression that there's something else going on under there.
Possibility Mark but as the die wears it shouldn't(i've been told) produce the top loop of the 2 or 3 that seems to show here,,it should be uneven but who knows and where are all the other coins minted at the same time,surely someone would have found one as the 1922 3d gets a lot of scrutiny.The Obverse is different as well to the 6 or 7 examples i could find,none had the dots but i guess we will know more in that respect as people check their coins.I've shown the scans/snaps to everyone i can think of and no one seems to know what it is so far.
Basil, is there any chance that the fat feet of the 2s (and I notice the down-stroke of the 9 isn't svelte) is due to poor hubbing? If so then the lip under the top of the 2 could be the remnants of the first blow, then the second blow was a hairs breath higher.
Perhaps they switched between the hubs that Jon records between the 2 hubbing blows (do little threepences get 2 blows?).
All possibilities i guess Neal,its beyond my knowlege at the moment.The first thing people i've showed the Pics. to say is why this hasn't turned up before when almost every 1922 3d gets scrutinised several times in its life especially since Ebay & USB Microscopes appeared on the scene. One thing thou.,the top loop didn't show on my Loupe,it was covered by dirt,what attracted my attention was the bar hanging out of the tail.
It will be interesting to see if anyone has the same Obverse with the dots and strokes thru the "Í" 's,if they proves to be rare then i have really stumbled onto something.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='42449' dateline='1393054247'...
Perhaps they switched between the hubs that Jon records between the 2 hubbing blows (do little threepences get 2 blows?).
We occasionally see hub doubling on threepences (such as that 1943 that turned up recently) so threepences must gte two blows.
I can hear the groans thru the keyboard but before i'm carted off to the Retirement Home i think my coin has a slightly different Obverse as i stated earlier.I looked at it thru a scope over the W/end and some of the letters seem misaligned(slight) compared to the 1922 egs i have.It may be the thickness of the letters or the manner of the strike but its different when you add the dots & strokes in as well.
If anyone in the Months ahead comes across an Obverse with similar marks could you please post pics/scans of both sides of the coin,i've been told the Melb. Mint were playing around with Dies early 1922(eg 21/22) so who knows what this Coin may be.
I will also have to post on CC down the track,i've been asked to provide links to this Thread by a couple of people so they can follow the opinions & Info. listed but apparently this is a closed Forum & links don't work.
Thanks to everyone for the posts/Info./Opinions here so far.Also my line drawing on Scans is not the best but i guess you can see what i'm on about.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_Obverse_Lines__arrow.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1922_Obverse_EG_.jpg)
Must have missed this one, very interesting stuff. Think I've got a similar one or 3 as well , Basil. :) They're old pics from a few years back, nothing recently.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF1003_zpse42a599b.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF1003_zpse42a599b.jpg.html)(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/1c42f3f7-6c4d-4465-a35b-a3198561cc27_zpse2c6bcd8.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/1c42f3f7-6c4d-4465-a35b-a3198561cc27_zpse2c6bcd8.jpg.html)(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/9b07f4a8-3150-4056-8c3a-7898c5864c6a_zps16abdc7e.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/9b07f4a8-3150-4056-8c3a-7898c5864c6a_zps16abdc7e.jpg.html)
Can't find the coloured pics yet.
Got some new pics, see how we go with them.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6544_edited_zpsigv9z15j.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6544_edited_zpsigv9z15j.jpg.html)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6549_edited_zpslxk2llhf.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6549_edited_zpslxk2llhf.jpg.html)(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6545_edited_zpssrovgwkb.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6545_edited_zpssrovgwkb.jpg.html)
Interesting G.,i still have the Coin(somewhere) but have lost interest and moved on,most people i showed it too reckon its a 3 under the 2 but until someone with credibility finds a similar Coin and investigates then puts something to paper its just another novelty Coin.
I had my suspicisions it may have been 1922/2/1. It may have been retooled a couple of times. This was one of mine that was on the backburner for a number of years as well. Just came across your thread last night, while having a poke around. :) But then again, could totally be off the mark entirely as usuall. :)
Have different pics of another similar one as well.
I'll have to find it and take some better Pics.,i have a improved USB Microsope now.
Going back to one of the original Pics. the red arrow points to what looks like a tiny rod like you would find in a watch whilst the green points to what looks like the lower section of a figure such as a 1-4-7 etc.Weird.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2017_06_01_13h38m16s_001_.png)
This was the second one in the series, still looking for the 3rd one at the moment. :)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6553_edited_zpsakmgjxbd.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6553_edited_zpsakmgjxbd.jpg.html)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/compassnorth/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6555_edited_zpsk59fi2jv.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/compassnorth/media/Gnomes%20Predecimal%20Album/DSCF6555_edited_zpsk59fi2jv.jpg.html)
Last pic, :)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/DSCF6545_edited.jpg)
Hi Basil, just looking at the predecimal threads and saw this one re the threepence. I did a fair bit of research re the overdate 22/21 and the tooling used to create that and the dates either side some time ago. This does not directly answer your particular coin but gives some interesting facts regarding how the dies were created around then. Go back through your back issues of CAB, oh its last year!, June 2016 vol 19-05 not long ago at all and its an article wrapping the overdate up and explaining how it was made. Yes there was a lot of experimenting 1919 to 1921 when Melbourne were getting the hang of die and hub making and getting some consistency in the striking from year to year..
Your coin looks to me like possibly the edges of the date incuse on the striking die flaking off so producing lumps around the edges on the coin. If it is die flaking then there will be many other coins with similar lumps as the die failure progressed, if not then its just a metal problem like crap in the silver mix or even oxidisation of the metal humping it up.
Cheers, Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='110858' dateline='1502941280'Hi Basil, just looking at the predecimal threads and saw this one re the threepence. I did a fair bit of research re the overdate 22/21 and the tooling used to create that and the dates either side some time ago. This does not directly answer your particular coin but gives some interesting facts regarding how the dies were created around then. Go back through your back issues of CAB, oh its last year!, June 2016 vol 19-05 not long ago at all and its an article wrapping the overdate up and explaining how it was made. Yes there was a lot of experimenting 1919 to 1921 when Melbourne were getting the hang of die and hub making and getting some consistency in the striking from year to year..
Your coin looks to me like possibly the edges of the date incuse on the striking die flaking off so producing lumps around the edges on the coin. If it is die flaking then there will be many other coins with similar lumps as the die failure progressed, if not then its just a metal problem like crap in the silver mix or even oxidisation of the metal humping it up.
Cheers, Fred.
Hi Fred,thanks for making the effort,i've still got the Coin somewhere and will have to get it out and try and get some better Pics. I've got no idea other than there is something under the last 2.Dealer i showed it to said something similar to yourself,Die deteriorating and just a novelty piece.
Anyway i'll try and get better Pics.,i'll have more time when the Football season is over.
I've found the Coin and tried to get some better shots with a couple of different Microscopes but really couldn't improve on what i've already posted.
I did notice the top loop of the final 2 seems to be covering what looks like the top loop of a 3,the lower section arc of the loop seems greater(more rounded?) than the top section if that makes sense.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/S20171029_0016_resize.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/S20171029_0015_resize.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/S20171029_0004_resize.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/S20171029_0001resize.jpg)
I'm sure there is something under the final 2,depending on the light and angle you can get different perspectives.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/377/22_Arrows_resize.jpg)
Just looks like a slight doubling of an offset 2.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='112627' dateline='1509337099'Just looks like a slight doubling of an offset 2.
Ok,Thanks for the reply Walter,there is definitely something under the last 2,i can't get the Pics. i want as each angle and the shadows make it look different.