I just have a feeling Fulvio might like these!
Windows 8 a certifiable flop (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/windows-8-a-certifiable-flop-20131203-2yo3r.html)
Windows 9 slated for 2015 as Windows 8 'tanking' (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/windows-9-slated-for-2015-as-windows-8-tanking-20140114-30rlg.html)
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='40532' dateline='1390878700'I just have a feeling Fulvio might like these!
:laugh2: ..... I think so too ...... that stupid meeting room ad with the bunch of people 'grooving' around the table was enough to turn me off .... thumbs down MS, I'll stick with Vista.
Honestly, I don't know what they were thinking. I still have DOUBLE the number of visitors to all my sites using XP compared with Windows 8.
My practice is never to go early with a new version of software or operating system. Let others have all the teething problems.
And, I tend to skip a generation with operating system. I am running Windows 7 on this computer and my old computer (networked but hardly ever turned on -just for emergencies basically) is fine with Windows XP -well as fine as a computer can be with a Microsoft operating system.
I wonder if there is any connection here? Gates' role scrutinised as Microsoft's search for new leader drags on (http://www.smh.com.au/business/gates-role-scrutinised-as-microsofts-search-for-new-leader-drags-on-20140124-31dt4.html)
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='40535' dateline='1390879509'I am running Windows 7 on this computer and my old computer (networked but hardly ever turned on -just for emergencies basically) is fine with Windows XP -well as fine as a computer can be with a Microsoft operating system.
I've used every version of Windows heavily apart from Windows 8 and even that I've got installed in a VM and have used it for testing for many hours. The main annoyance with W8 is that it's trying to be a tablet based OS AND a desktop OS. And does neither particularly well. Whoever decided to dump the start button needs his/her but kicked from here to Siberia. Windows 8.1 is a vast improvement.
I find Windows 7 to be essentially rock solid and I use computers harder that 99.9% of people ever will. This new machine I've got is a bit persnickety when it wakes up from a hibernate but that's a problem with the hardware rather than the OS. I know it's a bit of fun to poke fun at Windows and MS but despite what their critics might say they still make the business world go round.
:agreed:
The days of regular reboots, because the system fell over, are long gone.
Usually a reboot is down to something I have done.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='40537' dateline='1390880979':agreed:
The days of regular reboots, because the system fell over, are long gone.
Usually a reboot is down to something I have done.
I would reboot on average once per month. And only because I feel like I should, not because I really have to. Gosh I can remember having to reboot computers every time you had to run a different program, so rebooting once a month is heaven :)
XP is fine at the moment but users will be in for a shock when they can't log onto Websites to do their Banking,Taxation etc,mass exodus then.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40541' dateline='1390884414'XP is fine at the moment but users will be in for a shock when they can't log onto Websites to do their Banking,Taxation etc,mass exodus then.
Don't hold your breath. ;)
Apple have been trying to kill off the PowerPC architecture for years, but people still use them, and the old OS's to go with them. And despite DEC disappearing many many years ago, and Compaq's best efforts to erase everything they ever did, over 100,000 active and productive major VAX installations still exist, and heaven knows how many PDP-8 and PDP-11 machines and their embedded brethren.
Users simply need to learn to be less like sheep or lemmings, and to choose every aspect of their solutions carefully
(and never listen to salesmen). Its been well documented that every second MS OS has been a complete disaster, and 8 holds true to form. We may disagree on the pros and cons of Windows vs OSX (or Unix), but there's no denying a mongrel when you see one. I wouldn't touch 8 with a bargepole.. or Vista, recent OSX's, iOS 7, or many other things.. no matter how hard those with vested interests want to try and force me.
And make no mistake, websites (or rather their owners and/or producers) have very vested interests. And as I learned early on, you don't get far in business if you lock your customers out. ;) If people use XP, intelligent developers will support it. Its as simple as that. Its once the percentages drop to low enough levels to be ignored that inherent laziness takes over and people stop coding for them. Might be a while yet I suspect. ;)
Oh, and Mark, the whole computer vs tablet thing highlights just how bad MS really are. They totally failed to grasp the difference between relative (mouse) and absolute (touchscreen) positioning. That a product could get past Alpha stage, let alone to market, with such a glaring hole, speaks volumes about their ineptness I think.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='40544' dateline='1390889216'Oh, and Mark, the whole computer vs tablet thing highlights just how bad MS really are. They totally failed to grasp the difference between relative (mouse) and absolute (touchscreen) positioning. That a product could get past Alpha stage, let alone to market, with such a glaring hole, speaks volumes about their ineptness I think.
I think a real sign of their ineptness is whether or not they commit the same idiocy again in the next 10 years.
Mark.
I am surprised that you are finding XP is only double the number of Windows 8 users.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='40551' dateline='1390892859'Mark.
I am surprised that you are finding XP is only double the number of Windows 8 users.
All the new computers come preinstalled with the crappy win8.
Win7 is bloody near bullet proof, I have NO idea why they would dump that platform and produce the doggy do dah win8 crap.
I hate it .
Why on earth would you try and fix something that isn't broken :dash1:
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='40551' dateline='1390892859'Mark.
I am surprised that you are finding XP is only double the number of Windows 8 users.
That's the average across all the sites. On some it's more. On the most popular site (which gets around 50,000 visits a month) Windows 8 is less then one quarter than XP. But that site is heavily business oriented and that doesn't surprise me that much. On the Australian Coin Collecting Blog the Windows 8 to XP ratio is about 0.8:1. What you'd expect from a more consumer oriented site.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='40552' dateline='1390893416'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='40551' dateline='1390892859'Mark.
I am surprised that you are finding XP is only double the number of Windows 8 users.
All the new computers come preinstalled with the crappy win8.
Win7 is bloody near bullet proof, I have NO idea why they would dump that platform and produce the doggy do dah win8 crap.
I hate it .
Why on earth would you try and fix something that isn't broken :dash1:
Revenue. But at least MS can't make you buy hardware from them. Apple has forcibly obsoleted our iPad. So now we can't run new software on it and we're essentially being FORCED to buy a new iPad. MS won't let you run newer versions of DirectX or anything better than IE9 on XP. But they still support .NET up to version 4 which still makes it a very useful and usable OS.
I have been using MS platforms since I got my first computer in the early eighties, 286, 1 meg ram, ega card, 5 1/4 floppy and a huge 40 meg hdd running Dos 4.
I have used every dos based platform since.
Some were good and a few were Bloody good ( win95b, xp and win7)
With the new iPhone type concept win8 MS has lost a loyal customer unless they dump this concept .
My next computer looks like it will be a Mac at this stage of the game.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='40554' dateline='1390893679'
. MS won't let you run newer versions of DirectX or anything better than IE9 on XP. But they still support .NET up to version 4 which still makes it a very useful and usable OS.
[/quote]
I'm no expert on all this but my Nephew works in IT,his exact words are XP is finished as far as the Internet goes,you won't be able to use anything less than IE10 to acess some sites later this year or early next and it will spread fairly rapidly after that.
Anyway,time will tell but don't say you haven't been warned when you have to pay some Bulgarian guy a $100 to unlock your computer or your Bank Acct. gets drained.
Windows 7 OS ... can't go wrong
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40569' dateline='1390907119'my Nephew works in IT,his exact words are XP is finished as far as the Internet goes
Speaking as someone who worked in what they now call IT before everybody and his dog started doing it, I've seen and heard my fair share of stupid comments from people who should know better. Here's a random sampling of the more famous ones:
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
"I have travelled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processings is a fad that won't last out the year."
- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice-Hall, 1957
"But what...is it good for?"
- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC
"Indeed, it would not be an exaggeration to describe the history of the computer industry for the past decade as a massive effort to keep up with Apple."
- Byte, December 1994
"So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'"
- Steve Jobs, cofounder of Apple Computer
Now, I'm not saying your nephew is stupid, or even wrong. But there's a LOT more to the internet than just the web. And even then, its not the web that's the problem, but clever dicks who have to prove how clever they are to justify their salaries. This they do by coding stuff that is not universally accessible. I have old machines which can't run 'modern' browsers. And they can't access some websites. So what? Easy fix is just avoid those sites. Their loss, not mine. ;)
And Mark, I hear ya about Apple's planned obsolescence.. its one reason why much as I love the products, I absolutely hate the company. And why I have an iOS 5 iPad 2 and an iOS 6 iPod, neither of which I plan on ever 'upgrading' either OS or apps on. If developers want to force iOS 7 on people, they can do without my custom.
Seems to be that MS have established a pattern whereby about every second OS upgrade is a pup (no disrespect to dogs intended!).
Pedro
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='40578' dateline='1390915960'I have old machines which can't run 'modern' browsers. And they can't access some websites. So what? Easy fix is just avoid those sites. Their loss, not mine. ;)
its one reason why much as I love the products, I absolutely hate the company.
The problem with 'voting with your feet' is that 'no one cares'.
No one with any say in the matter cares if Fulvio does not visit a site, so your action makes no difference to fixing the situation.
I have seen large news and advertising and online shop sites (whose number 1 priority should be 'number of people viewing') that do not work with older browsers - even when they are still used by many people.
I have even watched the development of a large online store and commented on the lack of focus on making it work for as many people as possible.
Re apple.
Many of the products have major and deliberate 'anti customer' designs/features which are simply evil.
There s no excuse for:
-Batteries not being removable in iPods, iPads, iPhones or laptops.
-they are a consumable which need to be replaced eventually
-they have to be removed in some circumstances (eg dropped in water)
I am writing this on an iPhone 5 and the glass on iPhones is designed to break.
- the glass protrudes from the frame of the phone so any drop with the face of the phone less than approx 45 degrees to the ground ends up hitting directly on the glass
- then there was the model with glass front and back to double the chance of smashing something
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='40578' dateline='1390915960'Speaking as someone who worked in what they now call IT before everybody and his dog started doing it, I've seen and heard my fair share of stupid comments from people who should know better. Here's a random sampling of the more famous ones:
I'm sorry Fulvio,i can't agree and also can't see what those quotes of yours have do with anything,we are talking about an obselete OS and its relevance in the years ahead as far as accessing sites on the net,IE 8 & 9 won't cut it and it will more sooner than later.
If i'm wrong i'll come on this site in a couple of years time and admit it,if i'm right i will have helped a lot of fellow members,who deal in Coins/Paypal/Banking FFS,move onto Win 7 or 8 and its increased security protocols.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40585' dateline='1390948687'If i'm wrong i'll come on this site in a couple of years time and admit it,if i'm right i will have helped a lot of fellow members,who deal in Coins/Paypal/Banking FFS,move onto Win 7 or 8 and its increased security protocols.
With respect no-one knows for sure. I already have to load up certain sites in some flavour of IE 8 or later (the ATO business portal pages) because they simply WILL NOT WORK in any version of Firefox or Chrome. I suspect that this has nothing to do with standards compliance but rather the ATO programming specifically for IE.
Gee,i'm surprised but also can't agree Mark,i'm semi-retired but its common knowledge in IT that IE 8 & 9 are on their last legs,MPO is 2 years or less but time will tell.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40589' dateline='1390953074'Gee,i'm surprised but also can't agree Mark,i'm semi-retired but its common knowledge in IT that IE 8 & 9 are on their last legs,MPO is 2 years or less but time will tell.
They might be in the consumer market but in the business and corporate market they are anything but. Large corporates are notoriously slow to roll out new technology and I suspect this is the primary reason why MS provides support for old software for so long. Stats from my websites support this claim with IE11 on my "consumer" sites being used about 30% more than on my "business or corporate" sites.
I should add that the very good browsers Chrome and FF still support XP quite happily in their latest incarnations. They've got decent market penetration and can only help to prolong the life of XP.
OK,perhaps certain IT people see an opportunity to make $ with FUD.As i said time will tell,i'll agree to disagree.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/endofsupport.aspx
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40592' dateline='1390954418'OK,perhaps certain IT people see an opportunity to make $ with FUD.As i said time will tell,i'll agree to disagree.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/endofsupport.aspx
But interestingly they are providing security updates until 2015. Having a bet both ways :)
http://blogs.technet.com/b/mmpc/archive/2014/01/15/microsoft-antimalware-support-for-windows-xp.aspx
Yeah,2 years seems to be the general consensus,anyway i've made my point,if people wish take notice and move to 7 or 8, fine,if they don't thats fine too,i come to this site for Coin Info.,my last Post on the subject.
I have just bought a brand spanking new laptop that has Windows 8 on it.
Give me windows 7 Home premium any day.
I will try and take the computer back and see if they will remove Windows 8 and give me something I can really use........
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='40639' dateline='1390995321'I will try and take the computer back and see if they will remove Windows 8 and give me something I can really use........
Hopefully discussions like this one will lead to people asking that question
BEFORE handing over any money... watching sales walk out the door is a great motivator for improving customer service. ;)
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40589' dateline='1390953074'Gee,i'm surprised but also can't agree Mark,i'm semi-retired but its common knowledge in IT that IE 8 & 9 are on their last legs,MPO is 2 years or less but time will tell.
Windows 8 has IE 10 ... Yeah know what you mean Basil and Windows 8 is a total flop
I have Windows 8.1 installed on work laptop and my home desktop pc while my work desktop still has Windows 8 installed. All of these machines have solid state drives for the main hard disk so that combined with the fast boot that Windows 8, the are ready to use much quicker than they did when Windows 7 was on them.
I don't use any of the new Windows 8 apps or their start screen.
I use Classic Shell to put the tried and true start menu back. So I personally would not switch back to Windows 7.
It was a bit of a pain changing the file associations so that files open with programs rather than the new apps.
I work for a software development company and we still have clients who still in the process of planning their upgrade from Windows XP to Windows 7. Most of them skipped Windows Vista.
Ken
Quote from: 'ken-a' pid='40650' dateline='1391030890'I don't use any of the new Windows 8 apps or their start screen.
I use Classic Shell to put the tried and true start menu back. So I personally would not switch back to Windows 7.
Ken
Ok,definitly 2nd last post on this topic,LOL.
Yeah Ken,i've been on the start(Metro) screen once since i installed 8 on my home computers and that was to go to the Win. store to upgrade to 8.1.The Metro interface seems to scare a lot of people but you don't need to use it.
I boot direct to desktop and everything i need is there,i don't think you even need Classic Shell,all we do is put a shortcut on task bar to shut computer down.
Win 8 is a great OS,faster improved version of 7.,USB drivers load extremely fast which is good for me because i use USB Sticks for Broadband.
Anyway we did some photos of the Win 8 desktop for a Seniors Computer Magazine,i'll scan them on the W/end and post them here for anyone interested.
I know this is all basic stuff but some people,esp Seniors, are reluctant to upgrade to Win 8 because of the horror stories about the Metro Interface.Win 8 does everything quicker,better and with more security than previous OS. It only takes a few minutes to have it working similar to XP or 7 and a hour or so to become confident using it.Most XP programmes,printers scanners etc will work in native mode or XP mode.
First off you don't have to use the Metro Start for 90% of computer use,this is a snap of my desktop,shortcuts for everything i normally use including a one click shut down(red square Icon on task bar.It is almost identical to previous versions of Windows in use and appearance.The following assumes your using a Mouse.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/1_Ashampoo_Snap_2013_12_13_15h30m44s_006_.jpg)
To have your computer boot to desktop,bypassing Metro,right click on taskbar at bottom of screen,select properties,then navigation and make sure these boxes are ticked.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2013_12_13_15h09m06s_004_.jpg)
To access Documents,Pictures etc. just left click on Folder Icon on task bar.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Ashampoo_Snap_2013_12_13_15h46m43s_009_.jpg)
To access Control Panel,Computer Management etc just right click on Windows Icon in bottom LHC.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/resize.jpg)
To access Start screen left click on Windows Icon in bottom LHC.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2669_resize_2.jpg)
To access all programmes/Apps just click on arrow in lower left of Start Screen.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_2670resize_3.jpg)
There is obviously a whole lot more to 8 but don't be put off upgrading by the Metro Start,you don't have to use it,plenty of Info. on Google.
Well I have Windows 7 on my PC and Windows 8 on my laptop. Do not mind Windows 8 as I do have it set up like 7. The only problems I have had with it was when I did a free upgrade to Windows 8.1....what a knightmare.
Ended up having to re-format drive and re-load Windows 8.
Now all is fine.....touch wood.
My son did the amendments to Windows 8 as soon as I got it home, all 79 of them.
He then up graded to Windows 8.1.
I still can't get a handle on Windows 8.1
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='40852' dateline='1391233322'--the whole lot!--
Basil,
Thanks heaps for this post. Not the I was too fussed about going to long way of shutting down, and going to the desktop, but it makes it a little more XP'ish for me.
Thanks,helped some seniors(older than my 60 years,LOL) with coming to terms with 8 late last year,they had been reading & hearing media reports and the majority didn't realise Metro was in addition to the traditional desktop and you could still use a mouse and didn't need a touch screen,etc.Not having a go at the OP,its release has been a flop for various reasons ,the main ones being the dis & mis information campaign by Journo's & Technology Commentators but its the best MS OS so far,IMO,by a country mile.
Another tip is to disable(if you don't use them) the Apps. that come pre loaded,News,Weather,Stocks etc,also IE Big Pond Home page,its amazing how they eat into your Monthly Data allowance.
Anyway its an option for XP upgraders other than 7,Vista is a no go unless you can pick it up super cheap. I know people that are going to stick with XP until something goes haywire,they are going to use Chrome or FF so it will be interesting to see how long they last after April's deadline,my bet is under 2 years.
great stuff Basil...very constructive post thank you
Some information about Windows 8.1 Update 1.
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-81-update-1-preview-now-more-integration
Ken
QuoteI was told not to expect much from Windows 9 and that it would be similar to Window 8.1 in scope. Fundamental changes are not coming, I was told.
Heh. I've never expected much from Windows. And MS are famous for having fundamental changes not coming. :angel:
But seriously... I'd love to see some fundamental changes in the OS world. After the early years of true innovation in both hardware and software, we've now settled into a boring world of me-too one-size-fits-all hardware and three pretty-much-interchangeable OS's (OK, four if you count Android, but I don't). They look the same, they work the same, they all have the same annoying planned obsolescence and forced 'upgrades'....
None of which is anything like what we see in sci-fi movies. Seriously, can you see the Starship Enterprise boldly going where Windows takes it? It would warp into the nearest black hole while they were trying to find the start menu! ;)
How about an OS that runs on anything, isn't bloated, does exactly what it needs to do (and no more) and doesn't get in the way? Something, in other words, not like any of the current contenders.
It looks like MS will make some nice $ as XP staggers on.
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/375274,banks-hit-with-microsoft-costs-for-running-outdated-atms.aspx
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='44147' dateline='1395180331'It looks like MS will make some nice $ as XP staggers on.
Mind boggling, isn't it? Think how much money could have been saved by not going anywhere near M$ in the first place. And now they're setting themselves up to be robbed once again when Win 7 also get dumped in due course.
Is it any wonder that there are still over 100,000 datacenters running DEC VAXes, with zero plans to migrate? Or that most of the world's research labs still have Apple II's sitting there running critical equipment? There is much to be said for not leaping blindly onto the latest bandwagon, especially when it comes from the likes of Microsoft or Apple.
Yeah,no need to upgrade if the system does the job reliably but once more than one computer is linked by any method,it doesn't have to be the Internet, you can have major problems with outdated or unsecure software.
I just upgraded my new laptop with win 8.1 and you guessed it.
It is still Crap :dash1:
I'm back on my old lappy running win7 and it is FAR better.
Looks like the grandies get a new lappy to muck about with.
I am SO done with the win8 crap :dodgy:
Have you tried 'Classic Shell' with the new Lappy yet?
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='44173' dateline='1395205189'Have you tried 'Classic Shell' with the new Lappy yet?
I did install that and it disappeared with the upgrade.
I do have some Linux software I may install on it and bugger M$
Win 8 is similar to buying a new car then having to replace the tyres on it to get rid of the square ones that came with the car
Quote from: 'trout' pid='44174' dateline='1395205362'I do have some Linux software I may install on it and bugger M$
Smartest possible outcome, to be sure. Go4it! :)
Loaded windows 7 on my new laptop. Hate windows 8
Quote from: 'trout' pid='44174' dateline='1395205362'I did install that and it disappeared with the upgrade.
My resident PC Adviser says to download the latest version of Classic Shell (4.0.4) and run that. He's using it on Windows8.1 and it works perfectly.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='44253' dateline='1395279976'Quote from: 'trout' pid='44174' dateline='1395205362'I did install that and it disappeared with the upgrade.
My resident PC Adviser says to download the latest version of Classic Shell (4.0.4) and run that. He's using it on Windows8.1 and it works perfectly.
For some reason the upgrade from 8 to 8.1 removes classic shell.
I expect the same silliness to happen again in April when Microsoft releases the Update 1 for Windows 8.1.
Ken
only 5 days to go for xp now so it will be interesting to see if I'm still on line after because I have know idea about these things so if I get cut off I don't know what to do as I don't have the money for a new one and to do some travel but they reckon it should still work but we'll just have to see..bloody black hearted M$ and workventures :-/
No AJ,most pundits think it will be a gradual thing as the smarties work out how to exploit the vunerable. I wouldn't be doing Banking or Paypal on XP thou. but i read where XP will be blocked from Internet Banking by the main players eventually anyhow and that will be followed by Centrelink,Taxation etc,may be only scaremongering but time will tell.
Its no skin off my nose what OS people use but 8 is a great system,you just have to forget what you've read and heard and approach it with an open mind,you can make it operate like XP if you wish and never leave the desktop,it just takes a little time to adjust to how it works.
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='45587' dateline='1396484880'only 5 days to go for xp
Stres less, dude. All they're doing is dropping support. Which means it joins the vast pool of abandoned operating systems in the world. Big deal.
ALL of my OS's are abandoned, and always have been. The only time I get current is when I buy a new machine, and I rarely do that, since used machines are far, far better value. In fact, being forced to the latest version is a massive DISincentive for me to buy new, because I don't like where they're all going, and I don't want to be a guinea pig tasked with finding all the latest bugs. I'm much happier picking and choosing the good ones after the dust has settled. :)
I have upgraded x3 machines with the Windows 8.1 update 1 from Microsoft's MSDN site. Mainstream release of 8.1 update 1 will be next week - April 8.
There is also news that further work bringing back the functionally of the start button is in the works.
http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/02/microsoft-will-soon-bring-back-the-start-menu-in-windows-8-1/
Ken
I had a friend purchase the 8 update only to find his computer(old 478 chip) won't accept the update so worth downloading the MS guide to Win. 8 before purchasing.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/upgrade-assistant-download-online-faq
http://www.zdnet.com/the-metro-haters-guide-to-the-windows-8-1-preview-7000018398/
.....